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Is Rumi considered a heretic?

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2 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Incase you do, at least I made it in before the lock :party:

I think I'll pass. Enough Sufi poetry for today :grin:

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5 hours ago, Kaya said:

Why not? I'm honestly curious, because it seems we should apply the same standards to both.

First of all we are talking about heretics. Rumi is asking people to become heretics if they want to reach truth in Islam. Yet to see Sayyed Khomeini said anything like that. 

Secondly, I do not do personality worship. If Sayyed Khomeini has composed anything like that or praised enemies of Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام), he too would fall in the same category. 

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3 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

First of all we are talking about heretics. Rumi is asking people to become heretics if they want to reach truth in Islam. Yet to see Sayyed Khomeini said anything like that. 

Secondly, I do not do personality worship. If Sayyed Khomeini has composed anything like that or praised enemies of Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام), he too would fall in the same category. 

Salam @Sirius_Bright, thanks for the explanation. 

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5 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

Does loving them (whatever loving them entails) make one Kafir, and all that being kafir entails? Woah.. Why is kufr even being discussed at this point? 

Can you read again please I said nobody was saying to him that he’s Kafir he actually  called himself kafir For loving Abu Bakr usman Omar which is weird because loving them doesn’t make anybody kafir

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5 hours ago, Kaya said:

@habib e najjaar Please read Qasim's comment again. He literally said "even though nobody was saying to him that he's a kafir".

So the only one who started discussing kufr was he himself. 

No.  I was reading posts which quoted questionable ahadith which said such and such people are kafirs if they....

I was responding to such posts.

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5 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Why would anyone even care for this guy who accepts he gets drunk. He asks people to become heretic. His books are full of Ishqo Mashuq and beyond.

This is a distorted translation of his poem.

This is the whole poem. What is interesting is that he says he isnt a typical Sufi.

He also doesnt ask people to become heretic.

And it is clear what he means by "drunk"...he says "why should I drink wine?! Who feels happy with wine?!"

باز این دل سرمستم دیوانهٔ آن بندست

دیوانه کسی باشد، کو بی‌دل و پیوندست

سرمست کسی باشد، کو خود خبرش نبود

عارف دل ما باشد، کوبی عدد و چندست

در حلقهٔ آن سلطان، در حلقه نگینم من

ای کوزه بمن بنگر، من وردم و شه قندست

نه از خاکم و نه از بادم، نه از آتش و نه از آبم

آن چیز شدم کلی، کو بر همه سوگندست

من عیسی آن ماهم، کز چرخ گذر کردم

من موسی سرمستم،کالله درین ژنده‌ست

دیوانه و سرمستم، هم جام تن اشکستم

من پند بنپذیرم، چه جای مرا پندست؟

من صوفی چرا باشم؟ چون رند خراباتم

من جام چرا نوشم؟ با جام که خرسندست؟

من قطره چرا باشم؟ چون غرق در آن بحرم

من مرده چرا باشم؟ چون جان ودلم زندست

تن خفت درین گلخن جان رفت دران گلشن

من بودم و بی‌جایی، وین نای که نالندست

از خویش حذر کردم، وز دور قمر جستم

بر عرش سفر کردم، شکلی عجبی بستم

بازآمدم از سلطان با طبل و علم، فرمان

سرمست و غزل‌گویان، اسرار ازل جویان

باز این دل دیوانه زنجیر همی برد

چون برق همی رخشد، مانند اسد غران

چون تیر همی برد از قوس تنم، جانم

چون ماه دلم تابان، از کنگرهٔ میزان

جان یوسف کنعانست، افتاده به چاه تن

دل بلبل بستانست، افتاده درین ویران

می‌افتم و می‌خیزم چون یاسمن از مستی

می‌غلطم در میدان چون گوی از آن چوگان

سلطان سلاطینم، هم آنم و هم اینم

من خازن سلطانم، پر گوهرم و مرجان

پهلوی شهنشاهم، هم بنده و هم شاهم

جبریل کجا گنجد آنجا که من و یزدان؟!

تو حلق همی دری از خوردن خون خلق

ور دلق همی پوشی، مانند سگ عریان

در آخر آن گاوان، آخر چه کنی مسکن؟!

مسکین شو و قربان شو، در طوی چنان خاقان

احمد چو مرا بیند، رخ زرد چنین سرمست

او دست مرا بوسد، من پا ای ورا پیوست

امروز منم احمد، نی احمد پارینه

امروز منم سیمرغ، نی مرغک هرچینه

شاهی که همه شاهان، خربندهٔ آن شاهند

امروز من آن شاهم، نی شاه پریرینه

از شربت اللهی، وز شرب اناالحقی

هریک به قدح خوردند، من با خم و قنینه

من قبلهٔ جانهاام، من کعبهٔ دلهاام

من مسجد آن عرشم، نی مسجد آدینه

من آینهٔ صافم، نی آینهٔ تیره

من سینهٔ سیناام، نی سینهٔ پرکینه

من مست ابد باشم، نی مست ز باغ و رز

من لقمهٔ جان نوشم، نی لقمهٔ ترخینه

گر باز چنان اوجی، کو بال و پر شاهی؟!

ور خرس نهٔ ، چونی با صورت بوزینه؟!

ای آنکه چو زر گشتی از حسرت سیمین بر

زر عاشق رنگ من تو عاشق زرینه

در خانقه عالم، در مدرسهٔ دنیا

من صوفی دل صافم، نی صوفی پشمینه

خاموش شو و پس در، تو پردهٔ اسراری

زیرا که سزد ما را جباری و ستاری

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These poets like to use fisq terms in their poems - sometimes even to describe their relationship with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Why not use the words of the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt? Why use words like "drunk"? Sometimes they even say some clearly shirk statements in their poems but then justify it all in the name of "metaphor". 

And what is also disgusting is that some of these same poets have written poems that are clearly gay in nature. 

Read this:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/homosexuality-iii

Yea, let us not take our religion from them.

Edited by Sumerian

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13 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

salam everyone,

The more I am around Shias that hate, the more Sunni I become and the more Sunni Islam becomes more appealing.

So, most of you on this site have actually helped contribute to me becoming more and more Sunni.  And for that I am grateful to all of you for that.   Most of the people on this forum have made me realize that Shia Islam as practiced by a number of people today has very little to do with those they claim to be ardent lovers and supporters of (namely the Ahlul Bayt).  

if I compare an average Sunni vs an average Shia, I find the Shia is more likely to exude hate.  Hate seems to be part of the theology of Shias and I find this problematic and crippling for spiritual growth.  Also, when I see the lecturers in Shia communities, a great number of them appear to be very far of from a spiritual life centered around God consciousness.  Most of them are speaking from their egos.  On the other hand, Sunni lecturers (non-wahabi-non-salafi) are rarely like this and there is a lot of humility in their demeanor.  

This is my observation.  it tells me that several years from now, Shiasm might not be a possible option for spiritual seekers interested in gnosis.  but only God knows best and He is the best of planners.

I personally follow Jaferi fiqh, I love the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), I believe they have a special status or a spiritual function.  But I also believe Abu Bakr and Umar (رضي الله عنه) both had their own noble functions to play.  Arguments, disagreements, however major, are actually normal in this world where opposites and contraries become manifest.  Only in God is there absolute peace and harmony.  

Also, I don’t believe history has an objective reality.  The only objective truth is God Himself.  So, Shias have one version of history and Sunnis have another.  In both cases it is the mind that constructs the apparent reality of history as well as the apparent reality of everything other than God.  

nobody can argue with this now.

peace

Yes.It is unfortunate that sectarian hate has driven us far from the true goal.

Yes there are many scholars who have overcome this hate and following true Islam .

 

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9 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

First of all we are talking about heretics. Rumi is asking people to become heretics if they want to reach truth in Islam. Yet to see Sayyed Khomeini said anything like that. 

Secondly, I do not do personality worship. If Sayyed Khomeini has composed anything like that or praised enemies of Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام), he too would fall in the same category. 

Who told you that Rumi said one to become heretic.

And you have become arrogant enough to give judgement on Khomeini ra.

Then not only Khomeini ra even millions of Shia who follow him will too tall same in the catagory of enmy of Ahlebyat as.

Your not judge and we don't care what you say.

I believe Rumi ra and  Khomeini ra were great arifs that walked on Earth.

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4 hours ago, Sumerian said:

These poets like to use fisq terms in their poems - sometimes even to describe their relationship with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Why not use the words of the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt? Why use words like "drunk"? Sometimes they even say some clearly shirk statements in their poems but then justify it all in the name of "metaphor". 

And what is also disgusting is that some of these same poets have written poems that are clearly gay in nature. 

Read this:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/homosexuality-iii

Yea, let us not take our religion from them.

It is unfortunate that you have miss understood the the poetry.

If you read poetry of Imam Khomeini ra where he uses same terms to express his love for Allah.

But they use these terms metaphoric way .

Because the language donot have any other word to covey the message.

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9 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Go read and understand my second paragraph again. There's big 'IF'. 

I have read most of poetry of Khomeini ra.And almost all poetry of Khomeini is like that.

So before judging some one and giving judments do a research they give results.

Can you say .

How does one expresses love

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15 minutes ago, islam25 said:

It is unfortunate that you have miss understood the the poetry.

If you read poetry of Imam Khomeini ra where he uses same terms to express his love for Allah.

But they use these terms metaphoric way .

Because the language donot have any other word to covey the message.

The best language and terms to convey a message regarding Islam is the one the Qur'an and the Prophet and his family were using. Not these fisq terms or "metaphors".

Edited by Sumerian

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4 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Because, for us Shias, he's not an infallible. Mistakes are possible. No free passes. 

At least metion what is his mistake.

Is loving Allah to extent that one become like drunkard mistake.

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2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

The best language and terms to convey a message regarding Islam is the one the Qur'an and the Prophet and his family were using. Not these fisq terms or "metaphors".

Let Allah decide weather love of Khomeini ra was right or wrong.

That was his personal .

There is nothing like fisq in it.

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20 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I have read most of poetry of Khomeini ra.And almost all poetry of Khomeini is like that.

So before judging some one and giving judments do a research they give results.

Can you say .

How does one expresses love

Hold your horses and try to understand what others are saying. 

10 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

If Sayyed Khomeini has composed anything like that or praised enemies of Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام), he too would fall in the same category. 

I haven't said he has composed anything heretical but 'If he had...'. Simple English. 

Better rely on what Qur'an and 14 infallibles has taught us rather than wine, ishq, etc. 

And Shias do not consider him Ma'soom. Infact, no one is Ma'soom except Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام). So get over it. 

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17 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Hold your horses and try to understand what others are saying. 

I haven't said he has composed anything heretical but 'If he had...'. Simple English. 

Better rely on what Qur'an and 14 infallibles has taught us rather than wine, ishq, etc. 

And Shias do not consider him Ma'soom. Infact, no one is Ma'soom except Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام). So get over it. 

I sorry if I am not able to convey you.

Let me explain in simpler words.

Who decide about what' he has composed.

It is know arround 30 yeras since he passed.And no one decided.

Ok tell me what is your personal view on his poetry.

And it is not only Khomeini ra.

But Mohammed Hussain Tabatabaie ra author of Al Mizan the highest Shia commentry of Qur'an.

He too has poetry expressing his love for Allah .He too praised and love sofis.

Is he too heretic.

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35 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

The best language and terms to convey a message regarding Islam is the one the Qur'an and the Prophet and his family were using. Not these fisq terms or "metaphors".

Where did Imam said using these terms is sin.

Where did any mujtahid called it heretic.

Why should you dictate terms how to express Love.

Hope the following paragraph of commentry on poetry of Khomeini ra will help you.

O You saqi! Fill up my cup
With wine to cleanse my soul!
For my soul is overflowing,
Flowing over with passion for fame.
Fill up my cup with the wine
Which annihilates this soul,
Which expels the cope of intrigue
And my well-laid traps from being.

Even knowledge and gnosticism become hijab (veil, barrier) for him who sees and seeks nothing but the Truth (God) and he wants to tear up this veil, too, because knowledge and ‘irfan are holy only if they can be a road to Him, otherwise, they have no per se value:
In the tavern, learning and mysticism have no way,
For in the station of the lovers, fallacy has no way.

And:

When from the gnostic realm I came,
I saw all that had been in vain,
All that we’d heard or studied of,
Was vain, after I came to love.

While all regard gnosticism as the only road to reach Him, he (Imam Khomeini) is so monotheistic that he even sees ‘irfan as a barrier and declares it null and void. He wants the plain Truth, and since the bare Truth is nothing but the sacred Essence of the Friend, everything else is null and void

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2 hours ago, islam25 said:

Where did Imam said using these terms is sin.

Where did any mujtahid called it heretic.

Why should you dictate terms how to express Love.

I would rather take my religion from those who like to emulate the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and use their terminology, and not the terminology of Sufi poets. 

Secondly, will you defend your beloved poets in their use of homos*xuality and love of "boys" in their poems? Are they also acceptable metaphors in your eyes?

Edited by Sumerian

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26 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I would rather take my religion from those who like to emulate the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and use their terminology, and not the terminology of Sufi poets. 

Secondly, will you defend your beloved poets in their use of homos*xuality and love of "boys" in their poems? Are they also acceptable metaphors in your eyes?

Mr...

Love is different thing and homo. Is different.

Even true love with opposite sex never nothi to do with lust and so.

Our problem is mixing love with s*x

Edited by islam25

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22 hours ago, Sumerian said:

These poets like to use fisq terms in their poems - sometimes even to describe their relationship with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Why not use the words of the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt? Why use words like "drunk"? Sometimes they even say some clearly shirk statements in their poems but then justify it all in the name of "metaphor". 

The word "mast" in Persian poems doesnt necessarily mean drunk on wine. It can mean excited or unconscious.

Metaphor is an essential element of poetry. How can one write beautiful poems without using metaphors?

Many famous Shia figures wrote such poems. For example, Sheikh Bahai says in one of his poems: Zahid is going to the mosque and I am going towards the drunk person.

We should not compare Qur'an with poetry and literature for they are 2 entirely different realms.

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Sheikh Bahai (Allameh Majlesi's teacher)'s famous poem:

The mystic recognized thy essence
In every scene and each face.
It means that one can see thee at every glance,
In every instance.
It means that I am not mad that I knock every door,
I knock every door.
In every sea I dive, thou be'est the sole host.
In every route I walk, thy shine is the lone light,
In the tavern and mosque thou be'est the only Lord,
Thou be'est the only Lord.
Thou be'est the destination, thou be'est the pledge.
The reason is thee when I wander drunk,
The reason is thee when I meet with the monk,
The reason is thee when I am praying in the mosque.
They are all pleas and thou be'est the pledge.
Thou be'est the sole pledge.
Edited by shadow_of_light

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57 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

The word "mast" in Persian poems doesnt necessarily mean drunk on wine. It can mean excited or unconscious.

Nope. Khomeini says "wine". You can't get around this one.

58 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Metaphor is an essential element of poetry. How can one write beautiful poems without using metaphors?

You can use metaphors that doesn't include wine and zina and homos*xuality. What a strange excuse.

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

la hawla wala quwatta illa billah. Just read those poems and tell me they aren't written by a creepy mind.

I have read many poems but didn't come acroos any which is against ethics.

If you have any let me know.

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Guest junglee.Reech
On 10/17/2019 at 7:55 AM, SoRoUsH said:

1. Rumi was not a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

did you know the secrets of hearts ?

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42 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Do you believe that a group of people cannot coin meanings for certain words - even more so in poetry - which we usually call jargon, and convey those meanings through those same words? 

How very appropriate to describe religion using the names of the worst of sins. What an awful choice of words.

45 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

What do you all believe Rumi or anyone else really means when they use the word wine, or drunk, or what are they referring to when they use words that convey - what we in our jargon understand as - homosexual themes?

We know what he really means (or atleast we hope he isn't literal) - in any case what a disgusting metaphor it is. Talking about "young boys" and other things, the mind of the average mumin (and normal humans) would be disgusted to even read such things. It is obvious these poems are directed at people within that circle, who are comfortable with these metaphors. If you are, cool. But don't expect us to take our deen from people like him. 

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Nope. Khomeini says "wine". You can't get around this one.

You can use metaphors that doesn't include wine and zina and homos*xuality. What a strange excuse.

Mr..

I will suggest you get through some books of Khomeini ra then raise finger against him.

I have come to know from Khomeini ra what ever teachings of devine books and Prophets was for  self desipline and moral perfection.And Imam Khomeini ra practiced it in letter and sprit till last day.

So pointing finger on Khomeini ra of using indiscent and fisiq language indicates ones ignorence.

Yes he used these terms to convey devine beauty and love love lower language (human language).

That never meant what common people's say.

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19 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

in any case what a disgusting metaphor it is. Talking about "young boys" and other things,

The Qur'an mentions young boys like well kept pearls will serve the people of Paradise. 

So does the Qur'an actually mention wine in Paradise. 

So does the Qur'an mention chaste spouses in Paradise. 

See how insignificant are the things that bother you about his poetry? And remember you are a nobody while Ayatollah Khomeini founded an Islamic Republic, where alcholol, adultery, and homosexuality are forbidden. 

Get over the minute details and try to grasp the inner message!! 

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27 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

How very appropriate to describe religion using the names of the worst of sins. What an awful choice of words.

The Qur'an does not say anything inherently bad about wine, in fact it is very explicit that it also has benefits for humanity. Furthermore, there are a number of verses (such as 16:67) that some scholars understood to be praising intoxicants as a blessing from Allah and they even attempted to somehow explain them away given prohibition of drinking them. The Qur'an also alludes that there will be wine in heaven - without the intoxication effect that occurs for it in this world and what Satan uses to cause dispute and corruption amongst humans.

Quote

We know what he really means (or atleast we hope he isn't literal) - in any case what a disgusting metaphor it is. Talking about "young boys" and other things, the mind of the average mumin (and normal humans) would be disgusted to even read such things. It is obvious these poems are directed at people within that circle, who are comfortable with these metaphors. If you are, cool. But don't expect us to take our deen from people like him. 

Your response doesn't make sense - how can you judge someone for a perception you have of a word when they are using it in a jargon? Your attempt should be to understand the jargon and see what they really mean and judge them on that. How is this any different than Fuqaha comparing women in a marriage contract to merchandise and products where the man is paying a "monetary amount" for the "vulva" (literally their words) or human slaves to animals in their Fiqhi discussions - when anyone who studies Fiqh will know that these words do not mean humans slaves are literally animals or women are literally merchandise and products, rather they use these terms to break down certain perspectives of the contracts they are dealing with. If a non-Muslim were to read that Fuqaha use these words they would be saying the same thing as you, and your only response to them can be that this is jargon that does not mean or imply what you think it means. They can cry all they want about the poor use of words - their opinion means nothing, it is a term that a group of experts in any subject have come to agree upon and their perceptions about the term matter, not an outsider's. Not only do you take your deen from such people, you consider it obligatory to take your deen from such people.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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52 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

The Qur'an does not say anything inherently bad about wine, in fact it is very explicit that it also has benefits for humanity. Furthermore, there are a number of verses (such as 16:67) that some scholars understood to be praising intoxicants as a blessing from Allah and they even attempted to somehow explain them away given prohibition of drinking them. The Qur'an also alludes that there will be wine in heaven - without the intoxication effect that occurs for it in this world and what Satan uses to cause dispute and corruption amongst humans.

Selective reading and picking and choosing I'm afraid and I don't know which scholar says they are a "blessing from Allah" (my guess is a irfanist) but nonetheless this is not in line with what the hadiths say. 

The hadiths call it "umm al-khaba'ith" (mother of evil), and alhamdulillah this is where we get our religion from. 

Wine being in Heaven is an irrelevant side point I'm afraid, you already mentioned one difference which is the nature of it being an intoxicant. Furthermore, these poets make no attempt at hiding what metaphor they are talking about, because they say "drunk on wine". 

52 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Your response doesn't make sense - how can you judge someone for a perception you have of a word when they are using it in a jargon? Your attempt should be to understand the jargon and see what they really mean and judge them on that. How is this any different than Fuqaha comparing women in a marriage contract to merchandise and products where the man is paying a "monetary amount" for the "vulva" (literally their words) or human slaves to animals in their Fiqhi discussions - when anyone who studies Fiqh will know that these words do not mean humans slaves are literally animals or women are literally merchandise and products, rather they use these terms to break down certain perspectives of the contracts they are dealing with. If a non-Muslim were to read that Fuqaha use these words they would be saying the same thing as you, and your only response to them can be that this is jargon that does not mean or imply what you think it means. They can cry all they want about the poor use of words - their opinion means nothing, it is a term that a group of experts in any subject have come to agree upon and their perceptions about the term matter, not an outsider's. Not only do you take your deen from such people, you consider it obligatory to take your deen from such people.

Wasalam

What false analogy. I know that what they are saying in "jargon" is not literal, I am saying it is inappropriate to say such things like committing kaba'ir to describe religion in the first place.

The hadiths which mention comparing women to product and such are not inappropriate jargon at all, in fact they are literal descriptions of the situation. Yes, a woman in a marriage contract in reality is like a product and a human slave is property like an animal. No problem here at all.

And I could care less what a non-Muslim thinks about this at all. I don't care for them to even try to respond to them.

So your false analogy falls apart really

Edited by Sumerian

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