Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Enlightened Follower

Is Rumi considered a heretic?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Here are a few points to keep in mind:

1. Rumi was not a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

2. The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the source of all knwoledge.

3. Only the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) can properly interpret the Qur'an.

4. The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) were not Sufis and there are a couple of narrations in which they directly denounced the Sufis. 

Therefore, any individual, scholar, scientist, mystic, philosopher, who tries to understand and interpret the Qur'an or Islam, independently from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), will fail and cannot be trusted.

If Rumi's teachings do not stem from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or if he's teaching something that was neither taught nor endorsed by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), then he has deviated from the Straight Path. 

 

That being said, the article, incorrectly, puts mysticism and philosophy against the "Hadith current." This is frustratingly incorrect and irresponsible. Philosophers, as long as their views are in line with the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), have a lot to offer. Through dissection and making connections, philosophers can effectively bring forth the roots and the implications of the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

Other than the illegitimate reasons of national pride or dilution of religious teachings, we have no legitimate reasons to look beyond the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) to learn about Islam, God, and love. 

Are you a follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)?  Let us not be presumptuous.  
 

Rumi was a follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2019 at 12:47 PM, eThErEaL said:

Are you a follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)?  Let us not be presumptuous.  
 

Rumi was a follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

He was a Hanafi Sunni Faqih. 

Let's not pretend everyone we like is a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in secret.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

He was a Hanafi Sunni Faqih. 

Let's not pretend everyone we like is a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in secret.

That is is all the more reason he was a follower of the Ahlul Bayt.   Because he was Sunni and not a wannabe Shia.

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2019 at 1:06 PM, eThErEaL said:

That is is all the more reason he was a follower of the Ahlul Bayt.   Because he was Sunni and not a wannabe Shia.

Keep in mind that @eThErEaL is a follower of Abu Bakr, Uthman, Omar, Muawiya, etc.

So that would shed some light on his views on this topic.

-

As for pronouncing Sufis as heretics, I would urge some restraint in doing so. Ayatollah Khomeini actively practiced Irfan and had many mystical poetry written which you can find online.

Allamah Tabatai, the author of the great voluminous 'Tafsir al-Mizan' was also a well-known mystic.

I agree that the Sufis who disregard the sharia and the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are heretics, and they only deceive themselves if they think they have access to higher knowledge.

But not all of them disregard the sharia.

And the their teachings are mainly about perfecting inner Islam, so there is no need to look into their teachings for 99% of us, because we are struggling with even the basics of the religion.

And keep in mind that they use secretive language so you won't understand their texts without having prior knowledge of the secret meanings of words. 

Wassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Kaya said:
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Keep in mind that @eThErEaL is a follower of Abu Bakr, Uthman, Omar, Muawiya, etc.

So that would shed some light on his views on this topic

Are you sure about that? The ethereal I remember was very definitely a muhibb and Shia of Ahlul Bayt (inshaAllah). (Incase I got the name mixed up with some other user on ShiaChat, my bad).

Let us be careful about labelling each other and other people online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Are you sure about that? The ethereal I remember was very definitely a muhibb and Shia of Ahlul Bayt (inshaAllah). (Incase I got the name mixed up with some other user on ShiaChat, my bad).

Let us be careful about labelling each other and other people online.

From @eThErEaL: "I just want to let you all know that I love Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), Umar (رضي الله عنه) Uthman (رضي الله عنه) and Ali (عليه السلام)." Quoted from:

 

I'm sure he'll say the same if you ask him. And that's cool, people from all sorts of beliefs are welcome in this forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Rumi was a follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

 

 

Look up Rumi's works about Ibn Muljim and Muawya. 

Hardly a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 

Edited by Moalfas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Look up Rumi's works about Ibn Muljim and Muawya. 

Salam, I looked up on google but couldn't find anything. Care to share or send a link?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Look up Rumi's works about Ibn Muljim and Muawya. 

Hardly a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 

He composed very beautiful poems about Imam Ali (a) and Imam Hussain (a). So, even if he was a Sunni, we cannot say he was not a follower of Ahlul Bayt. 

P.s: In some of his poems, he calls Imam Ali "molana" (which is rarely done by Sunnis). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Salam, I looked up on google but couldn't find anything. Care to share or send a link?

Ws wr wb 

In his works Mathnawi, he describes Ibn Muljim as the hand or power of God or Haq however you translate it. I'm reading it off an Arabic translation so maybe Farsi speakers can elaborate on the original text. 

As for Muawaya:

http://nasirislam.com/Stories/MuawiyaandIblees.html

(I do not condone the site)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@shadow_of_light I cannot offer an opinion on what you've mentioned as I haven't read it.

From what I have read from his works about Ibn Muljim and Muawya as translations in In Arabic and English, it's hard to accept that a follower of Ahlul Bayt would speak so highly of their enemies. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Rumi is greatly loved by moronically sentimental indigenous Westerners who otherwise have no time for Islam. That sets off alarm bells for me.

The Muslims I find most interesting are Fatimah, Imam Ali, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, Yahya ibn Habash Suhrawardi and Ali Shariati- and the reason that I admire that them is each in their own way were problem solvers, they were not out to give people warm fuzzy feelings.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks @Moalfas for the references. It does seem that Rumi was praising Muawiyah.

I just want to point out again that mystical poetry is often not as it seems externally.

Just one example from a Shi'a sheikh, who we all can attest was pious and dedicated to the cause of Islam, Ayatollah Khomeini. In one of his mystical poems he says:

"There came the month of Ramadhan
The wine and the tavern died out.
The time for love and merriment and for wine
was switched to the pre-dawn hours.

The pir of the tavern and I
broke our fast with wine.
I told him that your fasting
is in days of leaves and fruits.

Make your ablution with wine
for according to the religion
of the rogues,
In the presence of the Truth,
this, your deed,
shall become fruitful." 

(Source: https://www.al-Islam.org/wine-love-mystical-poetry-Imam-Khomeini/ghazal-poetry#wine-ramadhan)

And another one from him:

"Open the door of the tavern before me night and day,
for I have become weary of the mosque and seminary
.

I took off the clothing of asceticism
And of pretentiousness,
And put on the robe of the tavern’s pir,29
And I gained consciousness

The sermonizer in city
Bothered me with advice,
Until came to my aid the breath

Of the wine drunk rouge.
Let us speak then of the temple

Of where I was awakened,
And of the idol of the tavern
By whose hand I was shaken"

(Source: https://www.al-Islam.org/wine-love-mystical-poetry-Imam-Khomeini/ghazal-poetry#languid-eyes)

So, should we conclude from this that Ayatollah Khomeini was a drunkard and hated the seminary?

Of course not. Rather, in the language of the Urafa 'wine' symbolizes the ecstasy someone feels during intense prayer and attaining nearness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

And he says that he became 'weary of the mosque and seminary' not because of being weary of them, but because the inner love of Islam being seldom found in such places anymore. The tavern on the other hand symbolizes the place where 'wine' is being drunk, I.e. true sincerity, love and connection with God is achieved there.

Regular Muslims should not bother with mysticism because it often confuses them, and they mostly don't understand it. So I think we should not pronounce any mystic as heretical because we often don't grasp their inner messages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, habib e najjaar said:

Are you sure about that? The ethereal I remember was very definitely a muhibb and Shia of Ahlul Bayt (inshaAllah). (Incase I got the name mixed up with some other user on ShiaChat, my bad).

Let us be careful about labelling each other and other people online.

This guy admitted on being Sunni and wrote in one of the thread that he loves Abu Bakr Omar usman and if loving them makes him a kafir then he’s a kafir even though nobody was saying to him that he’s a kafir. weird

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Here are a few points to keep in mind:

1. Rumi was not a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

2. The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the source of all knwoledge.

3. Only the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) can properly interpret the Qur'an.

4. The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) were not Sufis and there are a couple of narrations in which they directly denounced the Sufis. 

Therefore, any individual, scholar, scientist, mystic, philosopher, who tries to understand and interpret the Qur'an or Islam, independently from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), will fail and cannot be trusted.

If Rumi's teachings do not stem from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or if he's teaching something that was neither taught nor endorsed by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), then he has deviated from the Straight Path. 

 

That being said, the article, incorrectly, puts mysticism and philosophy against the "Hadith current." This is frustratingly incorrect and irresponsible. Philosophers, as long as their views are in line with the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), have a lot to offer. Through dissection and making connections, philosophers can effectively bring forth the roots and the implications of the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

Other than the illegitimate reasons of national pride or dilution of religious teachings, we have no legitimate reasons to look beyond the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) to learn about Islam, God, and love. 

You earned my respect, in this post of yours. I salute you for that.

8 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

He was a Hanafi Sunni Faqih. 

Let's not pretend everyone we like is a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in secret.

^ Last paragraph of yours, got me smiling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Here are a few points to keep in mind:

1. Rumi was not a follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

2. The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the source of all knwoledge.

3. Only the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) can properly interpret the Qur'an.

4. The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) were not Sufis and there are a couple of narrations in which they directly denounced the Sufis. 

Therefore, any individual, scholar, scientist, mystic, philosopher, who tries to understand and interpret the Qur'an or Islam, independently from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), will fail and cannot be trusted.

If Rumi's teachings do not stem from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or if he's teaching something that was neither taught nor endorsed by the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), then he has deviated from the Straight Path. 

 

That being said, the article, incorrectly, puts mysticism and philosophy against the "Hadith current." This is frustratingly incorrect and irresponsible. Philosophers, as long as their views are in line with the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), have a lot to offer. Through dissection and making connections, philosophers can effectively bring forth the roots and the implications of the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

Other than the illegitimate reasons of national pride or dilution of religious teachings, we have no legitimate reasons to look beyond the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) to learn about Islam, God, and love. 

Salam .

Brother you are not completely right.

How you decleared that Rumi not follower of Ahlebyat as .

What I have come to known Rumi was much more follower of Ahlebyat as than most of Shias.And more lovere of Ahlebyat as than others.

And Rumi was true Muslim and Arif.

There are indications from Shia scholars that reveal that reveal that Rumi was great Arif and wali .

Regarding  declearing sofism to be against Islam you need to do research .

Our great scholars like Khomeini ra and Mohammed Hussain Tatabaiet were not against true Sofism.Rather they indicate that sofism is true Islam.

Mohammed Hussain Tatabaiet has written book on Shia approch of sofism.

So the subject needs extensive research before declearing conclusion..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

salam everyone,

The more I am around Shias that hate, the more Sunni I become and the more Sunni Islam becomes more appealing.

So, most of you on this site have actually helped contribute to me becoming more and more Sunni.  And for that I am grateful to all of you for that.   Most of the people on this forum have made me realize that Shia Islam as practiced by a number of people today has very little to do with those they claim to be ardent lovers and supporters of (namely the Ahlul Bayt).  

if I compare an average Sunni vs an average Shia, I find the Shia is more likely to exude hate.  Hate seems to be part of the theology of Shias and I find this problematic and crippling for spiritual growth.  Also, when I see the lecturers in Shia communities, a great number of them appear to be very far of from a spiritual life centered around God consciousness.  Most of them are speaking from their egos.  On the other hand, Sunni lecturers (non-wahabi-non-salafi) are rarely like this and there is a lot of humility in their demeanor.  

This is my observation.  it tells me that several years from now, Shiasm might not be a possible option for spiritual seekers interested in gnosis.  but only God knows best and He is the best of planners.

I personally follow Jaferi fiqh, I love the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), I believe they have a special status or a spiritual function.  But I also believe Abu Bakr and Umar (رضي الله عنه) both had their own noble functions to play.  Arguments, disagreements, however major, are actually normal in this world where opposites and contraries become manifest.  Only in God is there absolute peace and harmony.  

Also, I don’t believe history has an objective reality.  The only objective truth is God Himself.  So, Shias have one version of history and Sunnis have another.  In both cases it is the mind that constructs the apparent reality of history as well as the apparent reality of everything other than God.  

nobody can argue with this now.

peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

"I became the One

whose name everybody takes an oath to.

 

I became Jesus to the moon.

I rose up and passed through the sky

I am the drunk Moses.

God himself lives inside this patched cloak.

 

I am crazy, insane, drunk out of mind

I don't listen to advice and deserve to be locked up"

hen he says at the end of this poem: 

"When Muhammad sees me drunk, my face pale,

he kisses my eyes, then I prostrate before him.

I am today's Muhammad,

but not the Muhammad of the past

I am the phoenix of the time"

"If you don't act like a heretic
you can't reach the truth in Islam"

(The Forbidden Rumi) 

Why would anyone even care for this guy who accepts he gets drunk. He asks people to become heretic. His books are full of Ishqo Mashuq and beyond.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Qasim-Raza said:

This guy admitted on being Sunni and wrote in one of the thread that he loves Abu Bakr Omar usman and if loving them makes him a kafir then he’s a kafir even though nobody was saying to him that he’s a kafir. weird

Does loving them (whatever loving them entails) make one Kafir, and all that being kafir entails? Woah.. Why is kufr even being discussed at this point? 

One thing we sometimes forget as Shias is that there is no "taqleed" of our aqaid/beliefs. We follow maraji for practise but when it comes to what we believe and are convinced by, each of us has an individual duty to gain this ma'rifah on their own. If this is the case, we should really be very very wary of labelling people as kafirs or as Shias or Sunnis for that matter based on what we may have (mis)understood from part of their utterances.

May Allah guide us all towards being as He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants us to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Anyone praising enemies and killers of Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام) is on the wrong path and we shouldn't take anything from him. 

Thank you!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Why would anyone even care for this guy who accepts he gets drunk. He asks people to become heretic. His books are full of Ishqo Mashuq and beyond.

@Sirius_Bright Did you read the mystical poetry from Ayatollah Khomeini that I quoted in this thread?

Would you not say that it basically makes the same statement as the poem you quoted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

salam everyone,

The more I am around Shias that hate, the more Sunni I become and the more Sunni Islam becomes more appealing.

So, most of you on this site have actually helped contribute to me becoming more and more Sunni.  And for that I am grateful to all of you for that.   Most of the people on this forum have made me realize that Shia Islam as practiced by a number of people today has very little to do with those they claim to be ardent lovers and supporters of (namely the Ahlul Bayt).  

if I compare an average Sunni vs an average Shia, I find the Shia is more likely to exude hate.  Hate seems to be part of the theology of Shias and I find this problematic and crippling for spiritual growth.  Also, when I see the lecturers in Shia communities, a great number of them appear to be very far of from a spiritual life centered around God consciousness.  Most of them are speaking from their egos.  On the other hand, Sunni lecturers (non-wahabi-non-salafi) are rarely like this and there is a lot of humility in their demeanor.  

This is my observation.  it tells me that several years from now, Shiasm might not be a possible option for spiritual seekers interested in gnosis.  but only God knows best and He is the best of planners.

I personally follow Jaferi fiqh, I love the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), I believe they have a special status or a spiritual function.  But I also believe Abu Bakr and Umar (رضي الله عنه) both had their own noble functions to play.  Arguments, disagreements, however major, are actually normal in this world where opposites and contraries become manifest.  Only in God is there absolute peace and harmony.  

Also, I don’t believe history has an objective reality.  The only objective truth is God Himself.  So, Shias have one version of history and Sunnis have another.  In both cases it is the mind that constructs the apparent reality of history as well as the apparent reality of everything other than God.  

nobody can argue with this now.

peace

This argument reminds me of the ex Muslims who claim they left Islam because of a tyrannical regime or movement. 

At the end of the day it is up to you to believe in the Oneness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , the Prophethood of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the wilayah of the Aimmah (عليه السلام). Using modern day lecturers or online users as a reason for moving away from the haqq is unlikely to be accepted as a legitimate excuse for deviating. 

Anyway, to each his own.

Regarding Rumi I think our brother @SoRoUsH summarized it best. 

Wallahu a'lam 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The more I am around Shias that hate, the more Sunni I become and the more Sunni Islam becomes more appealing.

 

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

if I compare an average Sunni vs an average Shia, I find the Shia is more likely to exude hate.

Haha right, after all we have been massacring Sunnis and calling them Rafida for hundreds of years? Right? Right? *sarcasm*

And we murdered the grandson of the Holy Prophet (sawa) for the sake of Banu Ummayah right?

brother, the 'exude hate' argument is literally the worst pro-Sunni argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This argument reminds me of the ex Muslims who claim they left Islam because of a tyrannical regime or movement. 

At the end of the day it is up to you to believe in the Oneness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , the Prophethood of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the wilayah of the Aimmah (عليه السلام). Using modern day lecturers or online users as a reason for moving away from the haqq is unlikely to be accepted as a legitimate excuse for deviating. 

Anyway, to each his own.

Regarding Rumi I think our brother @SoRoUsH summarized it best. 

Wallahu a'lam 

Well, the best way to judge a tree is by its fruits.  The so called Shiasm of today seems to bear a good amount of bad fruits.  
 

this however doesn’t mean I have to love the Ahlul Bayt less.  In fact my love for The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) grows because I am now truly practicing tawalla and Tabarra.  I am dissociating myself from those who poorly and badly represent them.  

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

I would rather not comment on that. 

Why not? I'm honestly curious, because it seems we should apply the same standards to both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, habib e najjaar said:

Does loving them (whatever loving them entails) make one Kafir, and all that being kafir entails? Woah.. Why is kufr even being discussed at this point? 

 

19 hours ago, Qasim-Raza said:

even though nobody was saying to him that he’s a kafir. weird

@habib e najjaar Please read Qasim's comment again. He literally said "even though nobody was saying to him that he's a kafir".

So the only one who started discussing kufr was he himself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, habib e najjaar said:

Uh oh.. here we go again

Lol this is the entire topic of the thread, what do you mean "here we go again".

Should I make a new thread? :hahaha:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...