Women's standards when choosing men in Qur'an

[thuglife]

Salaam.

Just thinking about standards of what women in Islam should be looking for in a man.

So, Qur'an 28:26. After Moses as helps the two women with the watering of the animals, one brings him back to their father for reward. Out of the 9 translations on Qur'an.com, here is one

"And said one of them (the two women): "O my father! Hire him! Verily, the best of men for you to hire is the strong, the trustworthy."

(1) My guess is that, in this case, the man needed someone who is strong (to work the fields) AND trustworthy. BUT does this apply to others? Apply to today when seeking a man?

I get the feeling Moses as was like 6 foot 5, athletic. So, if that was me, someone much shorter, who tried to help them, would I meet the standards of strong and trustworthy? I can control the trustworthy part, but not really the strong part, right?

I might be completely wrong about this, but maybe those women had some insight from their father that is not mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, about "a man will come help you and you will know what's up when you see him" 

Or maybe their father taught them this line about "strong and trustworthy." And so they are always on the look out for such attributes in a man. Or maybe...I don't know.

I'm just wondering what if all things equal except for the "strong" part, does that woman really say "hire him." As in, someone not strong or physically gifted, would that female say the same. If it was someone around 5 foot 6, not strong looking, would he have been hired?

I just feel like, "control what you can control" may not work with the strong part. What more could I have done if that was me back then?

And am I looking too much into this as "standards" for finding a man to marry. I feel like I wouldn't make the cut for what the Holy Qur'an appears to be saying about what to look for in a man.

[Moalfas]

I believe you are reading too much into the 'strong' aspect of it. It's known that the father of the two girls شعيب Shu'aib was an old frail man who had no sons, so hiring a strong and trustworthy man would be a 'no brainer'. Shu'aib offered to hire Nabi Musa (عليه السلام) for 8 or 10 years and to marry one of his two daughters.

The standard of the Prophet saw and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) for marriage is this well known and accepted Hadeeth in both schools albeit with slightly different wording:

روي عن الإمام الباقر (عليه السلام) أن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: «إِذَا جَاءَكُمْ مَنْ تَرْضَوْنَ خُلُقَهُ وَ دِينَهُ فَزَوِّجُوهُ، إِلَّا تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَفَسادٌ كَبِيرٌ»

It's narrated that Imam Al Baqir (عليه السلام) said: the Messenger of Allah saw said: "if one comes to you and you accept his character (Akhlaq) and faith (Deen), marry him, if you don't, there will be corruption (Fitnah) on Earth and much Fasad"

It's a shame that many of us who claim to follow the Prophet saw and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have very different materialistic standards when it comes to marriage. 

[AkhiraisReal]

You can be strong in many ways. Are they talking about Physical Strength, Mental strength, Jihad of nafs Strength, Spiritual Strength etc.

[Lilly14]

I want to also add to the last commentator's response regarding how religion of the man is a key factor. As my mom learned, besides religion you have to deeply research the signs of emotional abuse and before marrying, so you know the man well enough to rule out that he is emotionally abusive or has certain Type B personality disorders that are commonly expressed through emotionally abusing others (like naricisssit PD, psychopath, sociopath, etc) since emotional abuse early on is a gateway to more extreme abuse in the relationship (can be more emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and/or financial abuse, etc). And these type of people will always make your life hell, no matter how many times they promise to stop.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Lilly14

[Noor Taleb]

@Moalfas preach brother 

Totally agree with you 

women are becoming idiotic 

Feminist ohhhg feminists come at me im a woman 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Noor Taleb

[2Timeless]

^^Jeez such a scary feminazi 

[Lilly14]

4 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

@Moalfas preach brother 

Totally agree with you 

women are becoming idiotic 

Feminist ohhhg feminists come at me im a woman 

One could argue the same thing about men. I hear about the high standards some guys set, and many of the guys who don't have many standards or have no standards are desperate for quick green card marriages in my country.  

You could also argue that the parents of the guy and girl are often the ones with high standards. So many of them don't even let the vast majority of suitors past them and onto the girl to decide, or don't inform their son about eligible girls who don't fit their own standards of a daughter in law.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Lilly14

[thuglife]

The way I see it, I'm just going to be an amazing human being.

It's just that female pickiness is at an all time high.

And I've come to realise that women judge men as providers, and it's biologically ingrained in their DNA to do so. I was reading a reddit story where a woman recounts how her step parents adopted her to get her real parents' possessions, and at the end of the story she said something that caught my eye. I forgot the exact sequence, but she said something like "my step sister went on with her life and married an accountant," and she married a (fill in profession here). I can't recall if she married the accountant or her step sister did, but it really struck me as odd that that is how she defines men- by their professions. Instead of saying "I married a good man," she said "accountant." As if that is what he is first and foremost, and everything else is at best secondary. "I married an accountant and she married a (whatever it was, I don't remember)."

It's as if women don't see men as human beings, individuals with personalities. "Accountant." As if they are all the same, like going to the store to pick out a shirt, seeing a stack of shirts in the same design and size, and just taking one, as if every shirt in the stack is the same.

This is something that you don't really notice women do unless it is pointed out to you, like hidden symbols in logos or something.

It doesn't really matter how handsome a man is or all sorts of other factors. "Source of income" appears to be the main factor women judge by. It's just hard to navigate through such a field. And I can't blame women bc it's in their nature to be this way. It's like getting mad at gravity.

What would women do if men woke up and judged them the same way.

[Moalfas]

7 hours ago, Lilly14 said:

I want to also add to the last commentator's response regarding how religion of the man is a key factor. As my mom learned, besides religion you have to deeply research the signs of emotional abuse and before marrying, so you know the man well enough to rule out that he is emotionally abusive or has certain Type B personality disorders that are commonly expressed through emotionally abusing others (like naricisssit PD, psychopath, sociopath, etc) since emotional abuse early on is a gateway to more extreme abuse in the relationship (can be more emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and/or financial abuse, etc). And these type of people will always make your life hell, no matter how many times they promise to stop.

 

You make a valid point about looking out for warning signs of controlling and abusive behaviour. It is very important to point out that this goes both ways. There are also plenty of abusive women as well and generally men tend not to come forward or seek help due to shame and other factors. 

It's true that the general majority of victims of domestic violence and abuse are women. However, more and more men are starting to come forward and unfortunately, when it comes to helping those male victims or even believing them, the western system is lacking majorly as it sides with the female by default. 

The only way I can sum the current situation is:

If the East made it easy for men to abuse women, the West is now making it easy for women to abuse men.

I guess this calls for a new thread..

 

[Moalfas]

3 hours ago, Lilly14 said:

 

You could also argue that the parents of the guy and girl are often the ones with high standards.

You are correct in saying this as certain parents often dictate the standards 'acceptable' to them and their social circles etc

It's clearly a multi faceted probelm where everyone (girl, boy and both parents) need to take a breath and come down to Earth and reality.

[Moalfas]

1 hour ago, thuglife said:

The way I see it, I'm just going to be an amazing human being. 

This is exactly what everyone needs to strive for. If one's Niyah is pure, Allah sub will couple him/her with someone just like him/her inshallah.

And without raining on any singleton's parade; be prepared for some serious adversity because Allah is and will continue to test us until the exam is over. 

[rkazmi33]

I may be going off topic but I think my post is still relevant to thread. 

1. When a woman is married to a  succesful man: 

People in comments section were saying there's so much pain in her eyes and he had a smirk on his face while she was crying. 

2. When woman settles for a man-child 

3. Now an example of an EQUAL relationship. I have to say this is my favorite couple. I have never seen a more loving couple in real life.  It reminds me of why women shouldn't settle.  I liked the part when she said " I felt like I was helping you and that made me feel good. Then I realized we were both helping each other". Although I have to say his eyes and smile are a little creepy. 

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by rkazmi33

[rkazmi33]

This is when you settle for an abusive man. For many Muslim women, marriage is their first relationship while men mostly have experience. They can take advantage of this situation. 

[hasanhh]

2 hours ago, Moalfas said:

I guess this calls for a new thread..

l wikll oblige, inshallah.

[Lilly14]

7 hours ago, thuglife said:

The way I see it, I'm just going to be an amazing human being.

It's just that female pickiness is at an all time high.

And I've come to realise that women judge men as providers, and it's biologically ingrained in their DNA to do so. I was reading a reddit story where a woman recounts how her step parents adopted her to get her real parents' possessions, and at the end of the story she said something that caught my eye. I forgot the exact sequence, but she said something like "my step sister went on with her life and married an accountant," and she married a (fill in profession here). I can't recall if she married the accountant or her step sister did, but it really struck me as odd that that is how she defines men- by their professions. Instead of saying "I married a good man," she said "accountant." As if that is what he is first and foremost, and everything else is at best secondary. "I married an accountant and she married a (whatever it was, I don't remember)."

It's as if women don't see men as human beings, individuals with personalities. "Accountant." As if they are all the same, like going to the store to pick out a shirt, seeing a stack of shirts in the same design and size, and just taking one, as if every shirt in the stack is the same.

This is something that you don't really notice women do unless it is pointed out to you, like hidden symbols in logos or something.

It doesn't really matter how handsome a man is or all sorts of other factors. "Source of income" appears to be the main factor women judge by. It's just hard to navigate through such a field. And I can't blame women bc it's in their nature to be this way. It's like getting mad at gravity.

What would women do if men woke up and judged them the same way.

I know someone who is in a desirable and extremely highly paid career, but he's average in all other regards. From about a dozen girls, he has yet to be given a chance for a first meeting. It's not all about job or money these days, at least with girls in my area.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Lilly14

[Lilly14]

6 hours ago, Moalfas said:

You make a valid point about looking out for warning signs of controlling and abusive behaviour. It is very important to point out that this goes both ways. There are also plenty of abusive women as well and generally men tend not to come forward or seek help due to shame and other factors. 

It's true that the general majority of victims of domestic violence and abuse are women. However, more and more men are starting to come forward and unfortunately, when it comes to helping those male victims or even believing them, the western system is lacking majorly as it sides with the female by default. 

The only way I can sum the current situation is:

If the East made it easy for men to abuse women, the West is now making it easy for women to abuse men.

I guess this calls for a new thread..

 

I don't disagree that men are victims of abuse sometimes too. But even western women are abused much more than western men. Western courts still mostly favor men in abuse and rape cases. You're lucky if your rapist or abuser ever gets ANY jail time. Hang out in western domestic violence support groups for a while or pay close attention to DV and rape statistics in the west and you'll see for yourself. It's so hard to comprehend that a culture that toots women's rights is still so nightmarish. Even the rate of women being murdered by their partners is increasing in the US. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/us/domestic-violence-victims.html

Edited October 12, 2019 by Lilly14

[Vindemiatrix]

On 10/10/2019 at 11:11 PM, thuglife said:

BUT does this apply to others? Apply to today when seeking a man?

Nope

[Guest Kgomo 5]

11 hours ago, thuglife said:

"Accountant."

or footballer.

Women are strange beings indeed & I wander...

What kind of a woman is she?

[hasanhh]

6 hours ago, Lilly14 said:

I know someone who is in a desirable and extremely highly paid career, but he's average in all other regards. From about a dozen girls, he has yet to be given a chance for a first meeting. It's not all about job or money these days, at least with girls in my area.

l read an article a couple of years ago that there are thousands of lranian women whiling/wasting away their best years waiting for Mr. Perfect to appear.

[Lilly14]

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

l read an article a couple of years ago that there are thousands of lranian women whiling/wasting away their best years waiting for Mr.... Perfect to appear.

I mentioned my area, and my area is not Iran. I live in the US. Most of us don't seek spouses who don't live in the US. Also, I think you down voted the wrong comment.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Lilly14

[thuglife]

4 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l read an article a couple of years ago that there are thousands of lranian women whiling/wasting away their best years waiting for Mr.. Perfect to appear.

Female decision making screws over themselves and men. Men are slightly less than half the population. So, right away there won't be enough men for every female. And when females reject men, they deny those men companionship. by doing so, they deny themselves. Not just Iranian women.

[thuglife]

7 hours ago, Guest Kgomo 5 said:

or footballer.

Women are strange beings indeed & I wander...

What kind of a woman is she?

The wool pulled over our eyes is that "a man must do x,y, and z to land a woman. He must prove himself." WE men are the prize. We are less than half the population.

Women wouldn't know what to do if men sat back to be the one courted.

[Lilly14]

LOL @ the disagreement with my statement that even western women are often subjected to oppression by their men, and get very little justice. The beauty of extensive research and statistics of prevalence of partner abuse and rape, and the associated punishments and homicide rates in the US, is that you don't need to believe them for them to be true. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Lilly14

[Moalfas]

14 hours ago, Lilly14 said:

I don't disagree that men are victims of abuse sometimes too. But even western women are abused much more than western men. Western courts still mostly favor men in abuse and rape cases. You're lucky if your rapist or abuser ever gets ANY jail time. Hang out in western domestic violence support groups for a while or pay close attention to DV and rape statistics in the west and you'll see for yourself. It's so hard to comprehend that a culture that toots women's rights is still so nightmarish. Even the rate of women being murdered by their partners is increasing in the US. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/us/domestic-violence-victims.html

I feel the reference of men being the victims of abuse 'sometimes' is oversimplification of a vey serious issue. 

Females do tend to form the majority of victims of DV which is not disputed. The issue is that many men are also victims of DV and they seldom come forward or seek help. Even when they do come forward, they often aren't believed nor taken seriously because of the idea that he's the man, how can he be the victim of DV? he should be the perpetrator.

Only recently have support organisations started raising awareness of the fact that men have also been suffering in silence and they are pushing for more equal treatment by authorities and courts, because in family disputes in the west, authorities and courts side with the female by default as it's assumed that she's the weak one. Many -not all- women use this and cry wolf when they are in fact the perpetrators of DV. 

The statistics will only take into account the people who come forward and seek help. When most men don't come forward which is and has been the case, they won't be represented in those statistics. 

As for rape convictions, the rates are very low because of the difficulty in proving - beyond reasonable doubt - that it happened based solely on his word against hers; and such things often occur in private where no other evidence is available. There's also the whole issue around consent and the list goes on. 

At the end of the day both women and men fall victims to abuse and it's important to point that out when discussing such matters.

 

[Lilly14]

10 hours ago, Moalfas said:

I feel the reference of men being the victims of abuse 'sometimes' is oversimplification of a vey serious issue. 

Females do tend to form the majority of victims of DV which is not disputed. The issue is that many men are also victims of DV and they seldom come forward or seek help. Even when they do come forward, they often aren't believed nor taken seriously because of the idea that he's the man, how can he be the victim of DV? he should be the perpetrator.

Only recently have support organisations started raising awareness of the fact that men have also been suffering in silence and they are pushing for more equal treatment by authorities and courts, because in family disputes in the west, authorities and courts side with the female by default as it's assumed that she's the weak one. Many -not all- women use this and cry wolf when they are in fact the perpetrators of DV. 

The statistics will only take into account the people who come forward and seek help. When most men don't come forward which is and has been the case, they won't be represented in those statistics. 

As for rape convictions, the rates are very low because of the difficulty in proving - beyond reasonable doubt - that it happened based solely on his word against hers; and such things often occur in private where no other evidence is available. There's also the whole issue around consent and the list goes on. 

At the end of the day both women and men fall victims to abuse and it's important to point that out when discussing such matters.

 

I said sometimes, because I didn't want to downplay the prevalence and say rarely, which would have been incorrect. You made the exact assumption I was trying to avoid you making.

You're forgetting that rape victims who actually come forward despite the consequences of reporting (which can be the victim blaming stigma, fear of further harassment by the rapist of people that support him, etc) often never have their rape kits tested by the police (often because of low budgets), the time sensitive nature of testing for rape drugs in the system if applicable, how they are mislead to not file a report or victim blame (like many colleges administrations have been found to do so their college's name doesn't get dragged in the mud who by the way are more likely to expel a student for cheating than rape, even a repeat rapist), or even when there is proof, the rapist will argue that they were drunk or that it was consensual. Even in cases where there is DNA proof that a man rapes an underage girl, it's not unusual to get no jail time like that school bus driver in the news a few months ago, or that old man that had raped a 5 or 6 year old girl last year. Even when there are witnesses like in Brock Turner's high profile case, they barely get any jail time. And these are just stories I can think of on top of my head.

Like you said many DV victims never come forward, but the occurance of lying women is much, much more rare than woman who are actually abused and come forward. And I strongly disagree, because the courts still overwhelmingly side with the men in DV cases, at least in terms of little to no severe punishment when found guilty, even for repeat offenders and when there is legitimate evidence and proof. 

I would recommend anyone that is skeptical to join DV support groups on facebook and listen to the stories and see the bloodied and bruised pictures these women post, and hear how little, if any justice they receive, and how many of them are in hiding and still in fear of their and their kids safety and life, since their abuser is still after them. Some of them even post news stories of their abuser or news stories of the murder of their loved one by an abuser. Even as someone who did research on this topic for my degree, joining these groups really opened my eyes on the cold, hard reality: the secret oppression of many women in the west behind closed doors and systematically. Which is why it's ironic when some westerners say that feminists need to focus their attention only on the rights of women in other parts of the world because they think oppression of women doesn't really exist here. (Fun fact: a convicted rapist can legally seek paternal rights like custody of the child they produced via the rape, in some US states)  

Edited October 13, 2019 by Lilly14

[RUKS]

On 10/11/2019 at 12:27 AM, Moalfas said:

I believe you are reading too much into the 'strong' aspect of it. It's known that the father of the two girls شعيب Shu'aib was an old frail man who had no sons, so hiring a strong and trustworthy man would be a 'no brainer'. Shu'aib offered to hire Nabi Musa (عليه السلام) for 8 or 10 years and to marry one of his two daughters.

The standard of the Prophet saw and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) for marriage is this well known and accepted Hadeeth in both schools albeit with slightly different wording:

روي عن الإمام الباقر (عليه السلام) أن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: «إِذَا جَاءَكُمْ مَنْ تَرْضَوْنَ خُلُقَهُ وَ دِينَهُ فَزَوِّجُوهُ، إِلَّا تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَفَسادٌ كَبِيرٌ»

It's narrated that Imam Al Baqir (عليه السلام) said: the Messenger of Allah saw said: "if one comes to you and you accept his character (Akhlaq) and faith (Deen), marry him, if you don't, there will be corruption (Fitnah) on Earth and much Fasad"

It's a shame that many of us who claim to follow the Prophet saw and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) have very different materialistic standards when it comes to marriage. 

That's true, akhlaq and deen. Simple. I feel like we complicate life too much nowadays.

[Moalfas]

6 hours ago, Lilly14 said:

Like you said many DV victims never come forward, but the occurance of lying women is much, much more rare than woman who are actually abused and come forward. And I strongly disagree, because the courts still overwhelmingly side with the men in DV cases, at least in terms of little to no severe punishment

 I cannot comment on the US justice system as I'm not well versed in it. I'm rather referring to the system in the United Kingdom.

I absolutely sympathise with every victim of abuse whether they are female or male. I also understand the raw emotions that can surface whilst discussing such sensitive topics; but it's important to have a balanced view which is why  I'm sure you can agree with me that both females and males should look out for controlling and abusive red flags.

[Lilly14]

1 hour ago, Moalfas said:

 I cannot comment on the US justice system as I'm not well versed in it. I'm rather referring to the system in the United Kingdom.

I absolutely sympathise with every victim of abuse whether they are female or male. I also understand the raw emotions that can surface whilst discussing such sensitive topics; but it's important to have a balanced view which is why  I'm sure you can agree with me that both females and males should look out for controlling and abusive red flags.

Fair enough for the United Kingdom comment. But the second comment wasn't necessary since my views are based on facts, and were also balanced. And I wasn't expressing raw emotions, or I couldn't have made my case as well thought out as I did. And yes, of course it goes without saying that both genders need to watch for red flags.