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shia farm girl

Do atheists have metaphysical/spiritual experiences?

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2 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

Quite a speech. To be honest I did not relate it for your kind nor expect you to believe. Problem with a video as proof is that a video as well can be faked, and any evidence or even experience can be simply denied or dubbed "too complex" for a scientific explanation and left for "the future". Similarly any news of your disliking can always be overlooked despite the source. 

I agree, videos can be faked. Casper is fake but clearly we see him on tv, right?

But what if Casper were on tv over and over again. What if we saw him on tv, like a celebrity, here he is in Moscow with Putin, here he is with Kim Kardashian, there he is at the local supermarket etc.

What if he gave public speeches? And thousands of people went to see him as he toured major cities?

Assuming Casper were actually real, repitition of confirmed observation would remove doubt. And if you truly doubted, you could go to one of Casper's speeches and you could meet him yourself. Hypothetically.

This of course cannot actually be done because Casper isn't real. But let's take another example, Sasquatch.

People have video footage of Sasquatch right? I've seen Sasquatch on tv. Here's a photo of him:

https://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-08/bigfoot-found-again/

Sasquatch found again. 

But of course upon repitition of observation, the claim is half baked and it turns out he's made of racoons fur. And the claim fades.

But if sasquach were actually real, that repitition of observation would have transformed this news article into something much more incredible. Scientists would be publishing the new DNA sequences. The morphological traits of Bigfoot would be published as a new species. People would invest funds in defining it's habitat. It would be huge.

But none of this happened because like Casper, even though we see sasquach on tv, he cannot be affirmed to be real with use of our senses.

The rest of your post has to do with Hitler, mass murder and swings made of RNA. None of which has anything to do with the topic.

Edited by iCenozoic

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48 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

But what if Casper were on tv over and over again. What if we saw him on tv, like a celebrity, here he is in Moscow with Putin, here he is with Kim Kardashian, there he is at the local supermarket etc.

What if he gave public speeches? And thousands of people went to see him as he toured major cities?

What if, like some Muslim or Red Indian or some minority figure or other things they don't want to show on television, even Casper is deemed undesirable and not given enough media coverage? I wager even if the television people all testify to something unpopular, the majority is going to change the channel and that channel will soon go bankrupt. No one wants that. In this jungle my house is beside, many witnesses know of strangest things but I haven't met anyone trying to look for them. In fact people today are all tied up to make money, put food on the table and survive in an already insane world. I'm afraid you will never find truth on TV, of all things, nor you are capable of digesting any of it.

Edited by Darth Vader

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Nobody denies the existence of Muslims or native americans. And at the end of the day, either of us can go to say...a mosque or native American lands to speak with tribal leaders. Even if they didn't get much airtime on tv, we can still affirm their existance through our collective experience and observation. 

I could give you the address of a mosque and we could go meet Muslims together. And anyone around planet Earth, really at any time, could also do the same. We could visit Saudi Arabia if we wanted to. Or we could just walk down the street to the local mosque.

But this isn't the case with something like sasquach. Someone could tell me the address of where to find sasquach, but of course it has no address, it's allegedly hidden in the woods. Someone could tell me that a sasquach body is in a cooler, but of course it's made of racoons fur. When we attempt to investigate the credibility of the claim, it becomes apparent that the claim is unjustified.

If you think that there is something mysterious in the woods, if you're truly curious about it, hypothetically, you could go look and see. If its a bird, you could take pictures.

Edited by iCenozoic

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14 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

ls it me? Or hasn't anyone else gotten lost in this here thread?

Athiests having spiritual experiences --> fake videos --> Big Feet

l re-read this entire thread. There must be some psychedelic experience l have missed.

The discussion is about differentiating between what can be physically experienced versus what cannot. 

Do atheists have spiritual experiences? Well to answer the question, we have examine what physical vs metaphysical experiences actually are and how they're experienced.

Bigfoot and fake videos are just examples used in discussion of things claimed to be real, but which are not experienced. Similar to things like ghosts and/or spirits.

We are still on topic. Just using examples to discuss.

Edited by iCenozoic

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19 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

I could give you the address of a mosque and we could go meet Muslims together. And anyone around planet Earth, really at any time, could also do the same. We could visit Saudi Arabia if we wanted to. Or we could just walk down the street to the local mosque.

I can show you otherworldly beings if you come over and stay for a few weeks with me. I will also show you around my country, feed you our local foods and fruits, show you the historical places and anything else you would like, as my distinguished guest from afar. I will also guarantee your comprehensive safety and absence of any dull moment at the hands of all humans and animals. ^^^

I have invited over in the past "paranormal tv" journalists and "ghost hunters" but sadly they did not accept. That all said, before mentioning this whole thing I could understand this is not something I can prove of course, especially not to someone like you.

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10 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Bigfoot and fake videos are just examples used in discussion of things claimed to be real, but which are not experienced. Similar to things like ghosts and/or spirits.

l'II interject this.

About 20 years ago on area TV, normal rogramming was interrupted for three hours(as l remember because l wanted to watch this crazy thing) so some mystic's vision that the Virgin Mary will appear on top a a church can be ...whatever. So, as it got time for the alloted time to end, after all this hokey-hype, there was this puff of smoke, a few sparks and a few lazer flashes.

Of course the fraudsters proclaimed "somethng happened".  

:hahaha:

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8 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

I can show you otherworldly beings if you come over and stay for a few weeks with me. I will also show you around my country, feed you our local foods and fruits, show you the historical places and anything else you would like, as my distinguished guest from afar. I will also guarantee your comprehensive safety and absence of any dull moment at the hands of all humans and animals. ^^^

I have invited over in the past "paranormal tv" journalists and "ghost hunters" but sadly they did not accept. That all said, before mentioning this whole thing I could understand this is not something I can prove of course, especially not to someone like you.

Can you share video footage? Or are these things something that cannot be physically seen?

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7 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l'II interject this.

About 20 years ago on area TV, normal rogramming was interrupted for three hours(as l remember because l wanted to watch this crazy thing) so some mystic's vision that the Virgin Mary will appear on top a a church can be ...whatever. So, as it got time for the alloted time to end, after all this hokey-hype, there was this puff of smoke, a few sparks and a few lazer flashes.

Of course the fraudsters proclaimed "somethng happened".  

:hahaha:

I've always been a fan of the virgin Mary on toast that pops up in the news every now and then.

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6 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Can you share video footage? Or are these things something that cannot be physically seen?

I can try. My friends are game wardens and they most frequently encounter these things compared to the rest. I did not think of asking them to video capture such an event. You will have to excuse us for that. Its not like encountering other wild life.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

I can try. My friends are game wardens and they most frequently encounter these things compared to the rest. I did not think of asking them to video capture such an event. You will have to excuse us for that. Its not like encountering other wild life.

Alright. Well, usually when people want to investigate to determine if something is real, taking a picture or video footage is a good place to start. Whether it's something simple like a bird or a bug, or whether it's sasquach or a dinosaur, you can start by creating a record detailing your findings with supporting documents such as photos.

In the event that the bird or dinosaur is invisible or cannot be seen with the naked eye, perhaps you could try something like sound recordings or thermal imaging. 

You can also record the date, time and location, other witnesses etc. That was other people can also potentially observe the same thing.

Then when you're done, you can post your findings here on shiachat and we can examine the claim.

Edited by iCenozoic

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20 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

Alright. Well, usually when people want to investigate to determine if something is real, taking a picture or video footage is a good place to start. Whether it's something simple like a bird or a bug, or whether it's sasquach or a dinosaur, you can start by creating a record detailing your findings with supporting documents such as photos.

In the event that the bird or dinosaur is invisible or cannot be seen with the naked eye, perhaps you could try something like sound recordings or thermal imaging. 

You can also record the date, time and location, other witnesses etc. That was other people can also potentially observe the same thing.

Then when you're done, you can post your findings here on shiachat and we can examine the claim.

I am pretty certain if you wake up at 1 am to see something like a gigantic arm reaching from outside the window all the way to your neck, or if you saw bright red light for a moment passing by in the wilderness or a flame burst in a tree, or a child shape shift into a sheep or a cow you will not remember to capture it nor have the time. These encounters are short enough and adventurous like that.

But these things, even if someone takes the time to expose them, will simply be brushed aside. And even if proved real they won't prove much anything else either. Just like dreams do not, or people with near death or out of body experiences, or magicians whose tricks can not be explained or similar any other mysticisms from anywhere. Even if videoed it will only give other youtubers or journalists a bit of competition who are probably already making hours upon hours of such fake stuff as click bait / for monetary gains. So even if there is a shred of reality somewhere it will all be buried under that avalanche, dismissed or even explained away. So its a pointless effort imo. I'm old enough to know better.

The power of the media combined with the ignorance of the masses can be used to make Israel look innocent and Palestinians the sole culprits. So pardon me but don't hold your breath if I do not feel like producing the evidence. ^^^

However I am pretty certain that the reality can be found by someone who looks for it and makes the effort. For instance someone may be able to tell you of a ritual which has to be done in a cemetery at the oldest grave late night. I seriously doubt you will ever do it. Very few can.

Edited by Darth Vader

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If you truly believe that these things are real, like I said, get your camera or cell phone, record it, date, time, location, and post it here for us to observe and discuss. Have confidence in your ideas, or let them go.

And if you aren't willing to justify your beliefs, then I wouldn't expect anyone else to share them with you. Nor would I be upset if the world rejected my ideas if I myself wouldn't take the time to make a case for them. If I didn't take time to investigate my beliefs, it would suggest that my beliefs were not so important to myself, after all.

Edited by iCenozoic

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2 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

I've always been a fan of the virgin Mary on toast that pops up in the news every now and then.

I have this newspaper clipping from about 40 years ago -somewhere- where this couple drove from Wisconsin to Kentucky to see the face of Jesus in the roots of a tree a storm toppled.

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@Darth Vader

Here is a thought to consider. The existence of ghosts and phantoms is not revealed in Qur'an. lf you cannot describe a jinn who are revealed to exist, how can you talk about ghosts.

l'II give you an auditory story. Nearly 25 years ago in Winter time, l was sitting at the table reading. :book: After a while l thought l heard voices outside. l sit straight and 'they stopped talking'. Somebody walking through the yard, l guessed. Went back to reading. Moments later, l hear it again. l get up, go to the door, open and look out, then checked out a window. Nothing. Go back to reading. l hear it again. [ :censored:censored ] l sit up and it stops again. No TV or radio on. l am hearing something. l lean forward and l hear it again. So l lean fore and back until l can locate the sound. The small space heater fan beside me had started to make sounds. l turned the heater a little and the noises ceased.

About 50 years ago, l read a book by someone who did an investigative study of apparitions. He found a physical reason for everyone of the ~20 or so he studied.

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3 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

If you truly believe that these things are real, like I said, get your camera or cell phone, record it, date, time, location, and post it here for us to observe and discuss.

As I wrote, I don't see why I should be bothered. As I wrote in my first post, most of the people who saw the swing moving on its own remain the same and were not able to use it to reach a conclusion or increase their faith or correct the mistakes they do routinely in their lives. Same goes for most of the people who frequent the jungle. Same goes for all mankind.

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

The existence of ghosts and phantoms is not revealed in Qur'an.

It doesn't matter what you call them. Jinn are wrongly considered extra terrestrials by westerners and a few know them as extra dimensional. These Jinn also have pets which are unlike the animals of our world. In fact I expect there being more types than we can imagine for now.

[Shakir 38:35] He said: My Lord! do Thou forgive me and grant me a kingdom which is not fit for (being inherited by) anyone after me;

[Shakir 38:36] Then We made the wind subservient to him; it made his command to run gently wherever he desired,

[Shakir 38:37] And the shaitans, every builder and diver,

[Shakir 38:38] And others fettered in chains. 

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@iCenozoic,

Couple of things for now,

First of all, do you have any comments to make in regards to my previous post?

I will give you the doubt that you might have missed it.

Here it is: 

9 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

At iCenozoic

You derived your understanding from subjective perspective, hence, you brought up examples such as ghosts, flies etc.

Had you derived your understanding objectively, you would had most likely understood that if God wishes he can command the law of nature to naturally take a different course. 

For the law of nature itself is a subject to God's wishes. Hence, it happened before, in the cases of Prophets and Imams. 

Thus, therefore, your inability to comprehend if divine power can manipulate physical reality is subjective. If you believe it or not, it does not change the fact that it is possible by God's command or wishes.

The condition for a physical reality to take a different course, itself the requirement is an Imam, now, in our case.

The 12th Imam (عليه السلام) or in the previous cases were the 124,000 Prophets.

So, yes. I agree with you on the matter of ghosts, even I don't believe in them. 

But in the matter of divine power or physical reality to take a different course , an event of such level requires the presence of a Prophet or an Imam. That is a given. 

 

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5 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

The discussion is about differentiating between what can be physically experienced versus what cannot. 

Do atheists have spiritual experiences? Well to answer the question, we have examine what physical vs metaphysical experiences actually are and how they're experienced.

Bigfoot and fake videos are just examples used in discussion of things claimed to be real, but which are not experienced. Similar to things like ghosts and/or spirits.

We are still on topic. Just using examples to discuss.

Now, looking at your last few post (8-9).

Even you have to admit your discussion is irrelevant and off-topic, do you agree?

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3 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

It doesn't matter what you call them. Jinn are wrongly considered extra terrestrials by westerners and a few know them as extra dimensional. These Jinn also have pets which are unlike the animals of our world. In fact I expect there being more types than we can imagine for now.

Where did you get or imagine this?

And the ayats you cite use the tri-literal root for devil and shaytan, NOTHING used of the word jinn.

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7 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

@iCenozoic,

Couple of things for now,

First of all, do you have any comments to make in regards to my previous post?

I will give you the doubt that you might have missed it.

Here it is: 

 

Hey there. I had not seen this post before. But after reading, I don't understand your argument.

Regarding the comment:

"your inability to comprehend if divine power can manipulate physical reality is subjective"

 

I don't think that we have an inability to experience divine power.

If I see the Red Sea parting like it does in the movies, or if I see a man walking on water, it would be quite easy for me to observe and experience something divine.

Edited by iCenozoic

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On 10/10/2019 at 8:36 AM, iCenozoic said:

All experiences have to have some dimension of "physicality", else we wouldn't experience them. Something metaphysical, that is beyond physical, by it's nature could not be experienced. 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 2:23 AM, iCenozoic said:

An invisible angel could exist. But to date, as far as any of us are aware, no Angel has come and written their name in the sand for us to read and confirm the existance of.

 

On 10/12/2019 at 10:53 PM, iCenozoic said:

-ethereal

Let's be honest about this one.  None of us here, nor anyone we've ever known, has ever had such powers. 

So I would say, how can we trust the words of people from thousands of years ago

 

On 10/17/2019 at 4:55 AM, iCenozoic said:

Surely if such divine power were real in ways which manipulated physical reality, there would be something a bit more tangible than hearsay regarding the movement of a swing^.

Seas could part. Fire could come down from the sky. Divine beings could appear before our eyes. But no, here we are, left with questionable and unconfirmed scenarios involving the movement of a swing.

And, now you are saying: ' If I see the red sea parting...' 

Are you back-pedalling? Lol

I apologise, if I removed the irrelevant sentences (quote), of yours. But I believe, the context is still true. 

4 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Hey there. I had not seen this post before. But after reading, I don't understand your argument.

Regarding the comment:

"your inability to comprehend if divine power can manipulate physical reality is subjective"

 

I don't think that we have an inability to experience divine power.

If I see the Red Sea parting like it does in the movies, or if I see a man walking on water, it would be quite easy for me to observe and experience something divine.

By the way, I said 'your inability' not 'our inability'.

The point of my post that you have missed was to make you aware that, yes, we also don't believe in ghosts, etc. (Examples you provided)

11 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

But in the matter of divine power or physical reality to take a different course , an event of such level requires the presence of a Prophet or an Imam. That is a given. 

 

Edited by ShiaMahamed

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Visually seeing the Red Sea parting, I would not consider metaphysical. The reason being, it involves motion of a physical entity, which is water.

If we assumed that metaphysical events were occurances which could manipulate physical reality, then If the splitting of the red sea were to occur, then we could experience it. But of course, none of us has seen such a thing, so it's really all hypothetical. 

Statement number 2 is correct, regarding the angel writing in sand. None of us has seen such a thing. Have you?

Statement number 3 is correct. Unless someone here knows or has witnessed the parting of the Red Sea or has witnessed an angel writing their name in the sand etc.

I still don't understand your argument.

 

Edited by iCenozoic

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"But in the matter of divine power or physical reality to take a different course , an event of such level requires the presence of a Prophet or an Imam. That is a given. "

 

Of course ghosts are just an example used to make a point. And surprisingly enough it appears that some people here actual do believe in entities akin to ghosts.

So back to the topic, the question is: can we experience things that are...in some fashion, beyond physical (whether we call it metaphysical or spiritual etc.)?

I am saying that, no, we cannot, with the understanding that metaphysical events involve things that are non physical, that we cannot experience.

Alternatively, if the metaphysical event is understood as a spiritual event that manipulates physical reality, I would say, yes, we can experience such a thing (ghosts, Red Sea, pyromancy, angel writing name in sand etc.), However I would argue that none of us has ever experienced such things.

Perhaps some people believe that they have experienced ghosts, seen them, heard them etc., Though I am doubtful.

 

Your response appears to be that in order to experience the red sea parting, we would need to be in the presence of a Prophet or an Imam.

Do you think that we are in the presence of a Prophet or Imam? I don't think you do, given that Prophets and Imams do no currently walk among us. If you feel that they are among us, I would be doubtful.

So perhaps you would agree that we could both see the red sea parting, if it ever did. And perhaps you also agree that neither of us has seen the red sea parting, because it has not occurred before our eyes, regardless of the reasons why.

Is the above paragraph accurate? If so, this is why I don't understand your argument. You appear to be agreeing with me. If not, what do you disagree with in my post?

Edited by iCenozoic

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"The point of my post that you have missed was to make you aware that, yes, we also don't believe in ghosts, etc. "

If you agree that we collectively do not see the examples that I gave, red sea parting, angel writing in sand, ghosts, pyromancy, sasquach etc.

Then what is the argument that you're trying to make?

Are you agreeing that we don't experience metaphysical occurances (assuming the metaphysical manipulates physical reality)? Or are you just informing me that some Muslims don't believe in ghosts (which of course I already knew) but that perhaps you have experienced some other metaphysical occurances which have manipulated physical reality?

Edited by iCenozoic

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@ShiaMahamed

I am sorry, but I sincerely don't. ^ 

I've honestly been trying to figure out what you're saying. I have a few ideas of what I think you might be saying, but I don't want to speak for you. If you would like me to try speaking for you, I can though.

Let me know if you would like me to continue shooting in the dark or playing dumb as you believe it may be, or if you could just clarify, that would be great.

Edited by iCenozoic

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20 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:

@ShiaMahamed

I am sorry, but I sincerely don't. ^ 

I've honestly been trying to figure out what you're saying. I have a few ideas of what I think you might be saying, but I don't want to speak for you. If you would like me to try speaking for you, I can though.

 

1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

Do you think that we are in the presence of a Prophet or Imam? I don't think you do, given that Prophets and Imams do no currently walk among us. If you feel that they are among us, I would be doubtful.

I think, you just did! 

Anyways, bye.

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" If you believe it or not, it does not change the fact that it is possible by God's command or wishes."

@ShiaMahamed

 

One other thing,

The discussion isn't necessarily about whether or not God could part the Red Sea. It's a question of if we have experienced such a thing or not.

please pardon the strange font issues going in ^

 

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13 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

I think, you just did! 

Anyways, bye.

Ok. I'll leave it to my imagination if my "speaking for you" was accurate or if I was completely wrong. But thanks.

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