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shia farm girl

Do atheists have metaphysical/spiritual experiences?

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Assalamualaikum to all,

I feel weird asking this question in the "atheist" forum because this question is really to everybody who uses this site, so I hope the amount of people who see this are not confined to simply the atheists who peruse this particular forum.

 I'm really looking for replies from people of all walks of life and of religious and non religious backgrounds as well. There are many "new agers" who are not theists, but believe in "the universe" as being the sole independent provider of all, and I have heard that they DO have metaphysical experiences.

Im hoping for a good discussion here. The question is the same as the title of this post.

Do atheists have metaphysical / spiritual experiences? If there's anyone here that has, are you comfortable sharing your experience here?

Thanks in advance to all who participate!

W/s

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35 minutes ago, Shia farm girl said:

Assalamualaikum to all,

I feel weird asking this question in the "atheist" forum because this question is really to everybody who uses this site, so I hope the amount of people who see this are not confined to simply the atheists who peruse this particular forum.

 I'm really looking for replies from people of all walks of life and of religious and non religious backgrounds as well. There are many "new agers" who are not theists, but believe in "the universe" as being the sole independent provider of all, and I have heard that they DO have metaphysical experiences.

Im hoping for a good discussion here. The question is the same as the title of this post.

Do atheists have metaphysical / spiritual experiences? If there's anyone here that has, are you comfortable sharing your experience here?

Thanks in advance to all who participate!

W/s

All experiences have to have some dimension of "physicality", else we wouldn't experience them. Something metaphysical, that is beyond physical, by it's nature could not be experienced. Just as an invisible dragon could not be seen.

With that said, naturalists would typically just suggest that the experiences were not actually metaphysical but rather were physical experiences, though perhaps just lesser understood due to the complex nature of the human body.

Edited by iCenozoic

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@iCenozoic Hi, and thanks  for participating in this thread!

Yes, I suppose my use of metaphysical is wrong as it literally means "beyond physical". Its too late to edit my above post, so I guess from  here on  out, I will request other participants to respond to the question of if theyve had any spiritual experiences.

Regarding your response, would I be correct to say that because we are physical bodies, any experience we have can not be from or originate outside of our physical body as we have no other way of perceiving other than through our physical means? 

What do you say about about experiences that have a sort of "otherly" aspect to them, such as a dream that comes true and in a fairly exact manner to the way the event pans out? 

can’t really think of any other examples right now. Hoping more people will participate here to get more input.

Thanks!

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8 hours ago, Shia farm girl said:

@iCenozoic Hi, and thanks  for participating in this thread!

Yes, I suppose my use of metaphysical is wrong as it literally means "beyond physical". Its too late to edit my above post, so I guess from  here on  out, I will request other participants to respond to the question of if theyve had any spiritual experiences.

Regarding your response, would I be correct to say that because we are physical bodies, any experience we have can not be from or originate outside of our physical body as we have no other way of perceiving other than through our physical means? 

What do you say about about experiences that have a sort of "otherly" aspect to them, such as a dream that comes true and in a fairly exact manner to the way the event pans out? 

can’t really think of any other examples right now. Hoping more people will participate here to get more input.

Thanks!

 

You appear to ask two separate questions in your first statement. One being, can an experience originate outside of our physical body. The second being, can we perceive something without the perception being through physical means.

Well, a bullet can be fired at my leg and I can experience something that came from beyond myself. What I experience would be pain from the destruction of my physically existant nervous system.

If I were shot by a metaphysical bullet that didn't alter physical reality, then I wouldn't experience pain. 

Could there be such a thing as a metaphysical bullet that could alter physical reality? It could be possible. But as far as I am aware, no such entity has been confirmed to exist.

An invisible angel could exist. But to date, as far as any of us are aware, no Angel has come and written their name in the sand for us to read and confirm the existance of.

Regarding dreams, I typically view dreams as the mind continuing to think of ideas after we sleep. Like day dreaming.

Sometimes we dream of things that are possible, like having a dream about meeting someone and falling in love, or getting the job we have always wanted. 

But what do we do when we wake up? We fill out applications and make accounts on dating apps and so our dream becomes reality through our efforts (sometimes).

If every dream always came true, it would be meaningful, but many of our dreams are bizarre or don't hold true, which defeats our ability to confirm something metaphysical about them, or something beyond them being similar to everyday thoughts. Some thoughts we have come true, some don't.

I had thoughts of typing this message, and my thoughts came true (here I am typing) but is there something beyond this? I don't think so. 

 

Edited by iCenozoic

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I don't know if Jinn classifies as metaphysical but I know of people who became religious after being harassed by Jinn. To an atheist, an encounter with Jinn proves to them two things; the supernatural does exist and they were wrong. With that they usually turn to whatever the state religion is, usually Christianity. 

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When you have a spiritual experience you can choose to interpret it metaphysical or you can choose to interpret it physical. I can not tell if all people have spiritual experiences, but I don't see why atheists could not have them. After all I suppose that God might poke at the atheists once in a while in order to see if that can rub their stubbornness. Only when an atheist has a spiritual experience they would most likely call it hallucination and try to come up with a scientific explanation for it. Like different chemical and electrical processes and stimuli. The so called "God-helmet" is one example. 
I as a religious person on the other hand would interpret a spiritual experience metaphysically. I am not so sure about the God-helmet though.

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@Shia farm girl if you would like to understand an atheists or naturalists view on this topic, I would recommend reading Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World. 

https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469

Of course Carl Sagan is an atheist himself who doesn't believe in demons. But he talks about his views and ideas for why people may believe the things that they do.

The subtitle of the book is "Science as a candle in the dark", suggesting that through scientific observation and testing, we may be able to distinguish between what is real and what is simply of our imagination. Which is to say that things we can see and touch, taste, smell and hear are real. Things that cannot be experienced through the senses, regardless of if they exist or not,  couldn't be known to exist. If it cannot be seen, it may as well not exist at all.

Such as in the case of a ghost. If it can't be seen, then why believe it exists at all? On the contrary, if ghosts could be seen, hypothetically, we could demonstrate that they exist and would already have plenty of scientific literature on them, just as we do any other object that we can see. We could take a picture of a ghost for example. 

If an invisible brownie existed, perhaps we could taste it or smell it. But without taste or smell, this brownie, whether it truly exists or not, we do not have the means of justifying an argument for it's existence. It may as well not exist at all.

If an invisible angel existed that spoke to people, perhaps we could record it's voice. And we could demonstrate it's existance through the medium of sound, in which it communicates with us. But without voice recordings, we have no means of confirming that such a thing exists.

And without any means of confirming the existance of something, if people are willing to believe in things that they cannot experience, then people can literally believe in anything. They can believe in magic and voodoo, they can believe that Jesus is God, they can believe in talking ants or mystical donkey creatures or fire breathing behemoths, aliens making crop signs in central Pennsylvania, ghosts, Atlantis with mermaids, witchcraft, pyromancy, necromancy, ghosts, etc.

Without science, people can and will literally believe in anything. Anything they/we can feasibly imagine. Real or not real.

Edited by iCenozoic

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12 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Check out what Sam Harris days about this. 

People due to lack of "Knowledge"/"Wisdom", out of their ignorance Reduce belief to the physics, chemistry and biology  of neurological structures.

In the end, if the ideas, belief, scientific theories , hypotheses are ultimately the result of the motion of atoms in human(evolved /upright animal/ brain produced by an unguided random mindless process.

Why should you believe in any idea,scientific hypothesis, theory produced by such unguided/random and mindless process?

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On 10/9/2019 at 4:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

Something metaphysical, that is beyond physical, by it's nature could not be experienced. Just as an invisible dragon could not be seen.

That is your understanding of Metaphysics, not its true meaning. ( Refer to Quantum Physics)

If I were to accept your understanding,  you will agree that your  denial of a metaphysical statement, is  itself a metaphysical statement. 

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Didn't read the above comments or even the full post but: 

I remember a scholar responding to a question similar to what you've asked here. I'm going to explain what he said in my own words, but I may add my own explanations to it as well:

He was expressing how we humans are very complex and powerful creatures with endless abilities, and how the human soul is very powerful... He also expressed that if people are able to figure out how to use their creation in certain ways, if they learn certain types of knowledge, then they'll be able to perform special miraculous-looking or spiritual-looking acts. However, the scholar said that real spirituality is getting closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If you're performing special cool looking acts but it'ts not for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then it can't be called spirituality. 

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On 10/10/2019 at 11:23 AM, iCenozoic said:

You appear to ask two separate questions in your first statement. One being, can an experience originate outside of our physical body. The second being, can we perceive something without the perception being through physical means.

Well, a bullet can be fired at my leg and I can experience something that came from beyond myself. What I experience would be pain from the destruction of my physically existant nervous system.

If I were shot by a metaphysical bullet that didn't alter physical reality, then I wouldn't experience pain. 

Could there be such a thing as a metaphysical bullet that could alter physical reality? It could be possible. But as far as I am aware, no such entity has been confirmed to exist.

An invisible angel could exist. But to date, as far as any of us are aware, no Angel has come and written their name in the sand for us to read and confirm the existance of.

Regarding dreams, I typically view dreams as the mind continuing to think of ideas after we sleep. Like day dreaming.

Sometimes we dream of things that are possible, like having a dream about meeting someone and falling in love, or getting the job we have always wanted. 

But what do we do when we wake up? We fill out applications and make accounts on dating apps and so our dream becomes reality through our efforts (sometimes).

If every dream always came true, it would be meaningful, but many of our dreams are bizarre or don't hold true, which defeats our ability to confirm something metaphysical about them, or something beyond them being similar to everyday thoughts. Some thoughts we have come true, some don't.

I had thoughts of typing this message, and my thoughts came true (here I am typing) but is there something beyond this? I don't think so. 

 

Now that was funny.  I appreciate your response dear friend.

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On 10/9/2019 at 5:01 PM, Shia farm girl said:

Assalamualaikum to all,

I feel weird asking this question in the "atheist" forum because this question is really to everybody who uses this site, so I hope the amount of people who see this are not confined to simply the atheists who peruse this particular forum.

 I'm really looking for replies from people of all walks of life and of religious and non religious backgrounds as well. There are many "new agers" who are not theists, but believe in "the universe" as being the sole independent provider of all, and I have heard that they DO have metaphysical experiences.


This is a VERY interesting question.  What exactly is a “spiritual experience”?  An experience is “spiritual” if one calls it so.   For a truly spiritual man or woman there is nothing spiritual about being spiritual.  This is why the Imams said, “our spirits are our bodies and our bodies are our spirits”.  
For the typical person a “spiritual experience” is something which is not normal, cannot be understood, and most importantly, is something attributed to something that (or someone who) is revered.  Reverence has a religious undertone and so automatically excludes all secularist atheists.  So to ask a secularist atheist whether they have had a spiritual experience is to ask him if he experienced anything unusual that he cannot understand and which he would attribute to whatever he reveres (which he would say is nothing, since reverence has a specifically religious undertone).  Like thinking about candy, wishing or praying for it, and then seeing candy appear in your hands.  Things like this have happened to people and this is considered a spiritual experience by many people.  Now, the only reason why this is considered spiritual by those who call it spiritual is only because they don’t understand it It and because they attribute it to a symbol in their minds that they happen to revere (namely “God” or “Universe” or “Shiva” or “Allah” or “Jesus” or “Ganesh” or “Imam Hussein” etc etc).  It is said that Bayazid Bastami for example, could “materialize” whatever he would think about.  If he thought about coins then it could appear right in front of him.  This is just an example of what people would consider a spiritual experience.  They would see this example and call it spiritual because it is unusual, and which is something that can be attributed to an object that is revered.  Another example would be to see beauty or light  everywhere.  Again, this is not usual, and which is attributed to something one reveres.  They very word “reverence” automatically excludes all those who consider themselves “atheist secularists” precisely because of its religious undertones.  There is a person on YouTube who is a militant atheist and who was explaining about his NDE (near death experience).  He experience euphoria, bliss, a light in a tunnel et etc... but he didn’t call it spiritual only because he doesn’t consider himself to “revere” anything.  Not only that but he even attempts to explain it scientifically.  So, not only does he claim not to revere anything or anyone but he also doesn’t want to see anything unusual about whatever he experienced by attempting to understand its mechanism.  

Quote

Im hoping for a good discussion here. The question is the same as the title of this post.

Do atheists have metaphysical / spiritual experiences? If there's anyone here that has, are you comfortable sharing your experience here?

Thanks in advance to all who participate!

W/s

I had an experience once in my art class when I was a teenager.  I remember seeing God everywhere, seeing everything as light and beauty, it was very euphoric.  I am grateful for that, but I also now realize that there is nothing all that spiritual about it.  I used to think it was spiritual but now I understand that all of existence, right here and now is spiritual.  

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"Like thinking about candy, wishing or praying for it, and then seeing candy appear in your hands. Things like this have happened to people"

"  It is said that Bayazid Bastami for example, could “materialize” whatever he would think about.  If he thought about coins then it could appear right in front of him.  This is just an example of what people would consider a spiritual experience.  "

-ethereal

Let's be honest about this one.  None of us here, nor anyone we've ever known, has ever had such powers. 

If such abilities truly existed, surely we would know of these people. They would be on TV making candy and butterflies materialize in thin air.

The only place we hear of such people, are in books that are typically thousands of years old, or written by wiccans or people of some third world country where there is...typically less scientific development (more on third world countries below, see talk on Sierra Leonne.).

So I would say, how can we trust the words of people from thousands of years ago?

In ancient China, there was a man who allegedly could use magic to control the wind. But of course, in these times, people believed in all sorts of things.

Alchemy is the classic example of something magical that people believed in that was later demonstrated to be false, but people believed in all sorts of wild abilities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

Like making fireballs out of thin air.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromancy

Raising the dead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

Throw some bones in a pot and sprinkle some dust over it and see what happens, maybe conjure a ghost or two.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapulimancy

I mean come on now, we're all adults here and can distinguish between reality and mythology.

But people that lived thousands of years ago, of course didn't know that these ideas were not real. They didn't have the methodology nor the technology to confirm ideas through testing.

During the Ebola outbreak just 5 years ago or so, in a village in Sierra Leone, a woman was believed to be a spiritual healer, who did a dance, sang a song and the people held a huge ritual gathering while the healer used her magic to remove the curse of Ebola from sick people of the village. 

https://www.who.int/csr/disease/ebola/ebola-6-months/sierra-leone/en/

What happened? The magic didn't work, and everyone got sick with Ebola. The healer got sick, everyone touched her body during her own burial, then Ebola spread to countless more. Ultimately over 11,000 people died.

Thanks "spiritual healer".

But none of this stopped belief in these rituals and in their beliefs in magic.  Because honestly, they just don't know any better.

If these powers were real, we would be able to see them in action rather than only hearing about them third hand or in ancient books. The man who could make candy appear by thinking about it, would run a candy shop and would make millions of dollars. The alchemist would be making gold out of random scrap metal from old cars. The necromancer would have a huge business, reviving people who passed away etc.

But at best, all we see in modern society is the occasional hole in the wall business where a palm reader rips people off for a few dollars now and then.

Trusting in a literal understanding of ancient scripture, or believing in third hand accounts from people of third world countries such as Sierra Leone, are not valid approaches to the topic.

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On 10/10/2019 at 3:08 AM, Shia farm girl said:

I suppose my use of metaphysical is wrong

Metaphysics is an abstract form of causality studies.

Metaphysical has been by usage transformed into also meaning 'transendental' or 'paranormal'.

Maybe "mystical" is the word you were thinking about.

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2 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

"Like thinking about candy, wishing or praying for it, and then seeing candy appear in your hands. Things like this have happened to people"

"  It is said that Bayazid Bastami for example, could “materialize” whatever he would think about.  If he thought about coins then it could appear right in front of him.  This is just an example of what people would consider a spiritual experience.  "

-ethereal

Let's be honest about this one.  None of us here, nor anyone we've ever known, has ever had such powers. 

If such abilities truly existed, surely we would know of these people. They would be on TV making candy and butterflies materialize in thin air.

The only place we hear of such people, are in books that are typically thousands of years old, or written by wiccans or people of some third world country where there is...typically less scientific development (more on third world countries below, see talk on Sierra Leonne.).

So I would say, how can we trust the words of people from thousands of years ago?

In ancient China, there was a man who allegedly could use magic to control the wind. But of course, in these times, people believed in all sorts of things.

Alchemy is the classic example of something magical that people believed in that was later demonstrated to be false, but people believed in all sorts of wild abilities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

Like making fireballs out of thin air.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromancy

Raising the dead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

Throw some bones in a pot and sprinkle some dust over it and see what happens, maybe conjure a ghost or two.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapulimancy

I mean come on now, we're all adults here and can distinguish between reality and mythology.

But people that lived thousands of years ago, of course didn't know that these ideas were not real. They didn't have the methodology nor the technology to confirm ideas through testing.

During the Ebola outbreak just 5 years ago or so, in a village in Sierra Leone, a woman was believed to be a spiritual healer, who did a dance, sang a song and the people held a huge ritual gathering while the healer used her magic to remove the curse of Ebola from sick people of the village. 

https://www.who.int/csr/disease/ebola/ebola-6-months/sierra-leone/en/

What happened? The magic didn't work, and everyone got sick with Ebola. The healer got sick, everyone touched her body during her own burial, then Ebola spread to countless more. Ultimately over 11,000 people died.

Thanks "spiritual healer".

But none of this stopped belief in these rituals and in their beliefs in magic.  Because honestly, they just don't know any better.

If these powers were real, we would be able to see them in action rather than only hearing about them third hand or in ancient books. The man who could make candy appear by thinking about it, would run a candy shop and would make millions of dollars. The alchemist would be making gold out of random scrap metal from old cars. The necromancer would have a huge business, reviving people who passed away etc.

But at best, all we see in modern society is the occasional hole in the wall business where a palm reader rips people off for a few dollars now and then.

Trusting in a literal understanding of ancient scripture, or believing in third hand accounts from people of third world countries such as Sierra Leone, are not valid approaches to the topic.

But you realize I don’t care.  Right?  Wether it was fake or whether it actually happened is completely irrelevant to me or what I said.  Did you read the rest of what I wrote?

the only difference between you and me is that I am not cynical.

Quote

Things like this have happened to people and this is considered a spiritual experience by many people.  Now, the only reason why this is considered spiritual by those who call it spiritual is only because they don’t understand it It and because they attribute it to a symbol in their minds that they happen to revere (namely “God” or “Universe” or “Shiva”or “Allah” or “Jesus” or “Ganesh” or “Imam Hussein” etc etc).

Even if it is an illusionist magician, then the cause is unknown to those who were deceived by it.  Obviously it is no longer a spiritual experience to the deceiver or the illusionist since he knows or understands the phenomenon he is causing..  

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Sam Harris is interesting because he is a militant Atheist who has a spiritual bent.  

Yes. I must say, I disagree with almost everything he says. His arrogance is repulsive and his ignorance is vast. 

However, it's interesting to see how an atheist does mental gymnastics when talking about spirituality.

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21 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Yes. I must say, I disagree with almost everything he says. His arrogance is repulsive and his ignorance is vast. 

However, it's interesting to see how an atheist does mental gymnastics when talking about spirituality.

It is a contradiction, in my view, to be psychologically militant about anything and to have sakeenah in the heart.

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

But you realize I don’t care.  Right?  Wether it was fake or whether it actually happened is completely irrelevant to me or what I said.  Did you read the rest of what I wrote?

the only difference between you and me is that I am not cynical.

Even if it is an illusionist magician, then the cause is unknown to those who were deceived by it.  Obviously it is no longer a spiritual experience to the deceiver or the illusionist since he knows or understands the phenomenon he is causing..  

""Like thinking about candy, wishing or praying for it, and then seeing candy appear in your hands. Things like this have happened to people""

"Wether it was fake or whether it actually happened is completely irrelevant to me or what I said."

-ethereal

Pardon me for thinking that your statement "things like this happened to people" suggested that you cared whether or not these things actually happened. 

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3 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

""Like thinking about candy, wishing or praying for it, and then seeing candy appear in your hands. Things like this have happened to people""

"Wether it was fake or whether it actually happened is completely irrelevant to me or what I said."

-ethereal

Pardon me for thinking that your statement "things like this happened to people" suggested that you cared whether or not these things actually happened. 

Are we seriously going to argue about this?  Do you have to argue about everything?  Can’t you just give it a break?  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 10/11/2019 at 3:41 PM, iCenozoic said:

@Shia farm girl if you would like to understand an atheists or naturalists view on this topic, I would recommend reading Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World. 

https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469

Of course Carl Sagan is an atheist himself who doesn't believe in demons. But he talks about his views and ideas for why people may believe the things that they do.

The subtitle of the book is "Science as a candle in the dark", suggesting that through scientific observation and testing, we may be able to distinguish between what is real and what is simply of our imagination. Which is to say that things we can see and touch, taste, smell and hear are real. Things that cannot be experienced through the senses, regardless of if they exist or not,  couldn't be known to exist. If it cannot be seen, it may as well not exist at all.

Such as in the case of a ghost. If it can't be seen, then why believe it exists at all? On the contrary, if ghosts could be seen, hypothetically, we could demonstrate that they exist and would already have plenty of scientific literature on them, just as we do any other object that we can see. We could take a picture of a ghost for example. 

If an invisible brownie existed, perhaps we could taste it or smell it. But without taste or smell, this brownie, whether it truly exists or not, we do not have the means of justifying an argument for it's existence. It may as well not exist at all.

If an invisible angel existed that spoke to people, perhaps we could record it's voice. And we could demonstrate it's existance through the medium of sound, in which it communicates with us. But without voice recordings, we have no means of confirming that such a thing exists.

And without any means of confirming the existance of something, if people are willing to believe in things that they cannot experience, then people can literally believe in anything. They can believe in magic and voodoo, they can believe that Jesus is God, they can believe in talking ants or mystical donkey creatures or fire breathing behemoths, aliens making crop signs in central Pennsylvania, ghosts, Atlantis with mermaids, witchcraft, pyromancy, necromancy, ghosts, etc.

Without science, people can and will literally believe in anything. Anything they/we can feasibly imagine. Real or not real.

Don't treat science as absolute truth. Science's interpretation of how the universe works is always changing. Don't let science deter you from God, rather bring you closer. Don't trust atheists either, they just want to live life without worrying about the consequences to their actions. To an atheist, we are no different to the animals, all we must do is survive, reproduce and die. No offense, but if you think that is the purpose of life, you have a long way to come or else you are going to hit a wall. Don't think for a moment that atheists have an intellectual high-ground either, they don't know anything about my religion and have been spoon fed everything they know. An atheist is good at saying "we don't know, but you are wrong." 

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Salaam to all,

Sorry for my absence, I have been very busy and only been able to lurk and check the comments, but just want people to know I havent abandoned the thread. There is alot of food for thought here, so I plan to respond when I have the time to formulate good responses.

Thanks to everyone who is and has participated!

W/s

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I don't know if you believe me or not, but there are some verses of Qur'an which if you recite before them, you will notice something (perhaps a fear) happened to them. The 60th & 61st verses of Al-Waqia are among those verses and I recited these verses before my atheist counterparts while discussing with them the topic "how death is evolved in living organisms". The only thing which can brought spiritual or metaphysical experience to those who don't even believe on spirit, is death or discussions related to it.

Wassalam

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I want to relate a very interesting thing that happened once and I observed it fully.

It was during Muharram, eve of 8th and there was procession of people in the streets outside and Imam bargah was nearly vacant. Some children were playing inside and a few of their mothers and other women were in the women's area on the other side. All of a sudden then was excitement and someone told me the swing of Ali Asghar (عليه السلام). is moving on its own. My mind began to fill with doubts, naturally as it should. "I wonder who is moving it?" I had not seen it up close yet. People from the procession started to come and see it one by one and there was no space to walk past them and see if I went to take a look. I was at the gate watching over the entrance part of security outfit. "May be a hidden coil and a magnet? what else could it be?" Of course I was not an atheist nor these thoughts were really my own. I know of someone who threw some red color and water over one of the walls of their imambargah for worldly purposes I was preparing myself before I got to observe it. Any person its natural to doubt something supernatural. A security team mate came over from the procession so I told him to watch the gate and went inside to look. Children and men were everywhere like bees on a hive, on the stage too but I stepped on the stage to find path from there. The swing was on the other side I could not see it. Miraculously a few children looked back towards me and gave me way and so did the rest ahead of them and I walked al the way to the other edge right next to the swing. The swing was moving on its own indeed. A few women from family on the other side were reciting salawaat. With my critical sight already prepared for any sad human treachery I observed the three dimensions around the swing for any clues. Nothing. "Surely the truth is never shy of an honest scientific challenge". I looked at the hinges and the frames for any signs of any coils or magnets or wires. Nope, nothing. No thread either. Yet the swing was swinging on in its pendulum type motion and each time it reached an extreme I could witness I could observe a gentle push, a rejuvenation with force to make it keep swinging yet the source of the force remained totally unknown. I could feel something move in my gut. It was true what they said and the swing was oscillating back and forth on its own, defying all laws of physics and Sir Isaac Newton reanimated in my mind totally stumped with nothing more to do but look on for a while in astonishment.

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Surely if such divine power were real in ways which manipulated physical reality, there would be something a bit more tangible than hearsay regarding the movement of a swing^.

It's almost anti climactic to imagine divine power, finally on display for people to see...but in a form, not of some awe inspiring exceptional occurance, but of a swing moving back and forth.

Seas could part. Fire could come down from the sky. Divine beings could appear before our eyes. But no, here we are, left with questionable and unconfirmed scenarios involving the movement of a swing.

Where is the video footage? Where is the affirmation of observing world leaders? Such an incredible event appears to be limited to a post on a random internet forum.

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On 10/10/2019 at 8:36 AM, iCenozoic said:

All experiences have to have some dimension of "physicality", else we wouldn't experience them. Something metaphysical, that is beyond physical, by it's nature could not be experienced.

Would you be able to elobrate?

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On 10/10/2019 at 2:31 AM, Shia farm girl said:

Assalamualaikum to all,

I feel weird asking this question in the "atheist" forum because this question is really to everybody who uses this site, so I hope the amount of people who see this are not confined to simply the atheists who peruse this particular forum.

 I'm really looking for replies from people of all walks of life and of religious and non religious backgrounds as well. There are many "new agers" who are not theists, but believe in "the universe" as being the sole independent provider of all, and I have heard that they DO have metaphysical experiences.

Im hoping for a good discussion here. The question is the same as the title of this post.

Do atheists have metaphysical / spiritual experiences? If there's anyone here that has, are you comfortable sharing your experience here?

Thanks in advance to all who participate!

W/s

This question needs to be elobrated.

What do you mean by metaphysical experience.

Do we Muslims have experienced it.

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5 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

Would you be able to elobrate?

Sure. Well typically people consider something metaphysical as "beyond physical" or something presumably beyond our ability to physically experience.

A ghost for example, if visible, would reflect light (that's how we see objects), suggesting that physically existent light photons collided and reflected off of the ghost, further suggesting that the ghost itself is physical in nature (it can be seen and can physically come in contact with other physical objects such as light).

If a ghost were not physically existent, physically existing photons would not deflect off of it. In which case, we wouldn't be able to see the ghost, nor experience it because our senses wouldn't be able to detect it.

The same with sound waves and hearing. Gases and smelling, chemical makeup and tasting, and physical atoms and touching.

If it physically exists, we can experience it. If it doesn't interact with physical nature, then we cannot. Just as I cannot see a fly in a dark room. If the fly doesn't interact with physical reality, then my senses are incapable of experiencing it. Thankfully we can still hear and touch flies though, so we have alternate means of experiencing flies in the dark.

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It is by the above logic^ that if Casper the friendly ghost were real, we would be able to confirm his existence through tv interviews and with video footage.

If ghosts made sounds, we would be able to talk to them. Hold conversations, we could interview them about the afterlife. Write books, manage businesses that make use of their ability to pass through walls. 

It would be blatantly obvious to us all that ghosts were real, if they truly were.

If poltergeist were real and invisible spirits could move physical objects, we could hand them a pencil. Anyone ever seen the hit Netflix series " stranger things"? A kid was trapped in another dimension where he couldn't be sensed. But he could interact with electricity. So what happened? His mother setup some Christmas lights next to the alphabet so he could spell words by lighting up light bulbs.

Of course this is a fantasy TV show, but it logically follows that if such things were real, we would have long since determined a means of understanding them.

But instead, what do we find in the real world? Typically half-baked claims that are hearsay or lack objective observation. Claims that are usually underwhelming, an obscure noise in the attic, an creeky wooden floor making a sound, a random object falling off of a shelf. A possible shadowy object moving in the dark (could be Sasquatch, could be lochness monster etc.). This affirms people's strong ability to imagine and believe in things that aren't necessarily real. 

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At iCenozoic

You derived your understanding from subjective perspective, hence, you brought up examples such as ghosts, flies etc.

Had you derived your understanding objectively, you would had most likely understood that if God wishes he can command the law of nature to naturally take a different course. 

For the law of nature itself is a subject to God's wishes. Hence, it happened before, in the cases of Prophets and Imams. 

Thus, therefore, your inability to comprehend if divine power can manipulate physical reality is subjective. If you believe it or not, it does not change the fact that it is possible by God's command or wishes.

The condition for a physical reality to take a different course, itself the requirement is an Imam, now, in our case.

The 12th Imam (عليه السلام) or in the previous cases were the 124,000 Prophets.

So, yes. I agree with you on the matter of ghosts, even I don't believe in them. 

But in the matter of divine power or physical reality to take a different course , an event of such level requires the presence of a Prophet or an Imam. That is a given. 

Edited by ShiaMahamed
Included: at iCenozoic

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On 10/16/2019 at 10:55 PM, iCenozoic said:

Surely if such divine power were real in ways which manipulated physical reality, there would be something a bit more tangible than hearsay regarding the movement of a swing^.

It's almost anti climactic to imagine divine power, finally on display for people to see...but in a form, not of some awe inspiring exceptional occurance, but of a swing moving back and forth.

Seas could part. Fire could come down from the sky. Divine beings could appear before our eyes. But no, here we are, left with questionable and unconfirmed scenarios involving the movement of a swing.

Where is the video footage? Where is the affirmation of observing world leaders? Such an incredible event appears to be limited to a post on a random internet forum.

Quite a speech. To be honest I did not relate it for your kind nor expect you to believe. Problem with a video as proof is that a video as well can be faked, and any evidence or even experience can be simply denied or dubbed "too complex" for a scientific explanation and left for "the future". Similarly any news of your disliking can always be overlooked despite the source. Mass murder can be justified as "humanist" and dubbed a human necessity for survival. I know all of it even before you write it.

However, think of it this way. Maybe there were some rare sort of stem cells with no DNA in them. Or better yet, as you explain creation, there were RNA molecules in that swing (!!) and there was a space time anomaly coinciding there with them (since universe is random why not), and the local time slippage at the hinges made them to evolve in nanoseconds due to the gravitational anomaly and caused movement. Then suddenly it decided to stop evolving because natural selection did not favor it or because evolved bacteria ate the RNA and then it stopped. There's your scientific explanation.

Everything can be scientifically explained. In fact one can call it "too complex" and simply overlook it. One can call mass murder and grave injustice "necessary for survival" and call it "human" and be calm with it. As Hitler explained it, apes killed weaker or weird apes in the jungle and that is merely survival of the fittest and part of evolution process. Right.

Edited by Darth Vader

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