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Guest itslate

Can today's western woman be considered Ahlul-kitab

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Guest itslate

I have read stories of the Prophets and the Imams where for example the Prophet married a woman from Ahlul-kitab. But it was said that she was a very pious woman and she also came from amongst the best in terms of piety in her religion. The same applied to anyone mentioned in the hadiths that married from Ahlul-kitab. Therefore, if that is the case, how come there are brothers marrying women in the west that only say we are Christians but they don’t ever go to church, only for weddings or funerals. They also do not dress modestly, drink alcohol, commit adultery, etc?

I ask this because recently a friend of mine in university went into Mut'a with a non-Muslim. She is a nice girl, but she doesnt dress modestly, she drinks and this is just another relationship for her. So I began to question if one can truly go into mut'a with a western woman. The people I have come across that were Christians always dressed modest, never drank, attended church services sometimes several days in a week and honestly they didnt seem to different from your average Muslim.

Whats your opinion on this guys?

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3 hours ago, Guest itslate said:

So I began to question if one can truly go into mut'a with a western woman.

Probably not, Christians today are nothing like 1000 years ago. Culture has heavily influenced Christianity in recent years. The religion has changed a lot.... 

Edited by Ali~J

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There are many Muslims who do not attend mosques, who drink and who do not dress modestly etc. One cannot say they are not Muslim.

The same would apply to Christians. Therefore the validity of the marriage contract is not compromised as long as one identifies as from AhlulKitab. 

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5 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

There are many Muslims who do not attend mosques, who drink and who do not dress modestly etc. One cannot say they are not Muslim.

The same would apply to Christians. Therefore the validity of the marriage contract is not compromised as long as one identifies as from AhlulKitab. 

There's a difference between calling your self a Muslim and acting like a real Muslim. It is even addressed in the Qur'an.

I'm new to reading the Holy Qur'an and I can't remember the exact verses, but I will put it in my own words to the best of my knowledge; Via their tongue they are Muslims but their actions and whatever is within their chests may be unfaithful to what their tongue claims to say they are.

 

Edited by حسين

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On 10/7/2019 at 6:52 AM, حسين said:

There's a difference between calling your self a Muslim and acting like a real Muslim. It is even addressed in the Qur'an.

Via their tongue they are Muslims but their actions and whatever is within their chests may be unfaithful to what their tongue claims to say they are.

It's not my place to decide who's acting like a Muslim and who isn't. Allah is the judge. 

As far as the validity of the marriage contract is concerned, as long as one identifies as AhlulKitab then the contract is not compromised. 

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I have asked this question many times.

What is ahlul kitab? are the Christians and Jews of today the same as ahlul kitab? There are many Christian sects. For example many of them believe Jesus is son of our creator. is that still counted as ahlul kitab even though that is a haram belief.

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4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Depends on the individual but many young people in the West today don't adhere to any religion whatsoever.

Your friend should keep all the conditions of mut'ah in mind, one of them being permission of the girls father.

Wallahu a'lam 

Permission of the guardian ولي الأمر is only required if the girl is a virgin. 

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13 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

I have asked this question many times.

What is ahlul kitab? are the Christians and Jews of today the same as ahlul kitab? There are many Christian sects. For example many of them believe Jesus is son of our creator. is that still counted as ahlul kitab even though that is a haram belief.

اهل الكتاب 

People of the Book: are the ones who Allah revealed a book to. 

Muslims: Qur'an

Jews: Torah

Christians: Injeel- bible etc 

It doesn't matter whether they're following the original teachings or not.

Even Zoroastrianism or [edited out] are AhlulKitab because they originally did have one, however marrying into them is best avoided according to Sayed Sistani

Also, Mandeans الصابئة المندائيون are from AhlulKitab 

Do keep in mind that only temporary marriage with AhlulKitab is premissible not Da'em دائم

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On 10/7/2019 at 11:54 AM, Moalfas said:

اهل الكتاب 

People of the Book: are the ones who Allah revealed a book to. 

Muslims: Qur'an

Jews: Torah

Christians: Injeel- bible etc 

It doesn't matter whether they're following the original teachings or not.

Even Zoroastrianism or [edited out] are AhlulKitab because they originally did have one, however marrying into them is best avoided according to Sayed Sistani

Also, Mandeans الصابئة المندائيون are from AhlulKitab 

Do keep in mind that only temporary marriage with AhlulKitab is premissible not Da'em دائم

So who are ahlul kitab, do they have to believe in God or jesus. Or could they be atheist, or nihilist, but they have still received the book, through family friends or school. In western world everyone knows Bible, torah, Qur'an.

But is that the book Allah revealed to them? did those book not change except for Qur'an.

So who are really ahlul kitab? I am asking a serious question here.

On 10/7/2019 at 11:20 AM, Moalfas said:

Permission of the guardian ولي الأمر is only required if the girl is a virgin. 

If I am correct, she is considered virgin unless she has previously been married and had intercourse.

But then there is the question, is that marriage valid? or does it have to be Islamic nikah? But the ahlul kitab don't care of Islamic nikah, they do it their own way.

Then there is the question, If the girl has done zina but islamically still considered virgin, then what about that verse that tells us that:

24:26. “Impure women are for impure men, and impure men for impure women. Good women are for good men, and good men are for good women; such are innocent of that which they say: For them is forgiveness and a bountiful provision.”

"This verse propounds a general principle and it does not imply that if a man or a woman is good, his or her spouse necessarily is also good, forgiven and is one of the people of the Heaven. For the Holy Qur’an counts faith, piety, and good deed as the criterion, therefore, in spite of the fact that Noah and Lut (عليه السلام) were pure and faithful, their spouses were evil and Hellish."

That is from al-Islam.

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On 10/7/2019 at 3:01 AM, Guest itslate said:

I have read stories of the Prophets and the Imams where for example the Prophet married a woman from Ahlul-kitab. But it was said that she was a very pious woman and she also came from amongst the best in terms of piety in her religion. The same applied to anyone mentioned in the hadiths that married from Ahlul-kitab. Therefore, if that is the case, how come there are brothers marrying women in the west that only say we are Christians but they don’t ever go to church, only for weddings or funerals. They also do not dress modestly, drink alcohol, commit adultery, etc?

I ask this because recently a friend of mine in university went into Mut'a with a non-Muslim. She is a nice girl, but she doesnt dress modestly, she drinks and this is just another relationship for her. So I began to question if one can truly go into mut'a with a western woman. The people I have come across that were Christians always dressed modest, never drank, attended church services sometimes several days in a week and honestly they didnt seem to different from your average Muslim.

Whats your opinion on this guys?

Hello! Christian perspective here.

It's actually very simple,  and very very ironic. 

If a "Christian" woman is willing to marry a Muslim man, then ironically she is not a woman of the book. If she will marry a Muslim then she is not familiar with the books of the Bible, or she doesn't obey them. 

Obviously I don't mean this as an insult or anything. But 1 Corinthians 6 is very very clear that Christians are not to marry non-Christians. 

So Muslim men, if a "Christian" girl will marry you, you can't marry her because she isn't really of the book. If she says she  won't, then you can... but of course you can't!

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On 10/7/2019 at 3:19 PM, thegoodman81 said:

Hello! Christian perspective here.

It's actually very simple,  and very very ironic. 

If a "Christian" woman is willing to marry a Muslim man, then ironically she is not a woman of the book. If she will marry a Muslim then she is not familiar with the books of the Bible, or she doesn't obey them. 

Obviously I don't mean this as an insult or anything. But 1 Corinthians 6 is very very clear that Christians are not to marry non-Christians. 

So Muslim men, if a "Christian" girl will marry you, you can't marry her because she isn't really of the book. If she says she  won't, then you can... but of course you can't!

okay so if that's true, then I have another question to add to my post.

so how do we then solve this?

Because if the marriage is not islamically correct, then both partners are in big trouble in hereafter.

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The real question is, why marry ahl al kitab (especially when lack of practice is commonplace) when you could easily marry a practicing Muslim woman (revert or not)?  

And the excuse of "I live in the west" is irrelevant because there are Muslims living in every corner of the world. I myself have personally seen how diverse the backgrounds of young Muslims are in this day and age. 

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

 when you could easily marry a practicing Muslim woman (revert or not)? 

yes add the 5 billion needed for the marriage itself, decoration etc. Phd in 5 different areas. 2 books published, which received worldwide attention. At least 1 time participation in Forbes magazine. Has picture with Donald Trump. 5 white audis or mercedes.     and then her parents and her might consider to marry you, but first she must finish her uni, get her mercedes, get PHD, have books published, pictures with hillary clinton, by the time she is 35.

No wonder I find some Muslim families be such a boosters "I am this and that, and everyone else is this and that".

Edited by AkhiraisReal

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@AkhiraisReal 

AhlulKitab are those who identify as Christian, Jewish etc regardless of the fact that their books have been altered.

Atheists and Nihilists are not AhlulKitab and knowing about the Bible and Torah is different from identifying as Christian or Jewish.

I believe the issue of virginity has been clarified earlier. 

 

@thegoodman81

You bring an interesting perspective indeed. Such rules however, do not affect the validity of a temporary marriage contract. If one identifies as Christian, it is taken at face value and will be considered as people of the book. 

 

@2Timeless

You raise a very important and valid point. I believe the answer would be that it is extremely difficult to discuss such matter between Muslim men and women and even coming close to opening such topics can be extremely awkward. 

Secondly, it's rare that one comes across a Muslim woman who speaks highly of temporary marriage and there's also negative connotations attached to it so the men could automatically assume it's out of the picture with a Muslim woman.

The third point is the fact that for Westerners, sex and relationships is a much more open subject and therefore it's much easier to open such subject with them. 

I think the Muslim women who are interested in temporary marriages should make themselves known. Although I find this highly unlikely because of the negative connotations attached to temporary marriage, so we're back to square one!

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23 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Hello! Christian perspective here.

It's actually very simple,  and very very ironic. 

If a "Christian" woman is willing to marry a Muslim man, then ironically she is not a woman of the book. If she will marry a Muslim then she is not familiar with the books of the Bible, or she doesn't obey them. 

Obviously I don't mean this as an insult or anything. But 1 Corinthians 6 is very very clear that Christians are not to marry non-Christians. 

So Muslim men, if a "Christian" girl will marry you, you can't marry her because she isn't really of the book. If she says she  won't, then you can... but of course you can't!

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6&version=NIV

Does that make us the prostitutes then?

Seems like Islam holds Christians in higher regard than the vice versa if that is the case. In the Qur'an it even says to my understanding that some of the Christians will go to heaven.

Theoretical question, if a women believes in the Bible and all it contains but still marries a non Christian, say for example a Jew, is that enough to send her to hell?

Also, regarding the following quote:

"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

That basically means that all adulterers who adhere to christianity, or people who get drunk on alcohol who adhere to christianity, or gay people who adhere to christianity, they will all go to hell?

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21 hours ago, Moalfas said:

@AkhiraisReal 

AhlulKitab are those who identify as Christian, Jewish etc regardless of the fact that their books have been altered.

Atheists and Nihilists are not AhlulKitab and knowing about the Bible and Torah is different from identifying as Christian or Jewish.

I believe the issue of virginity has been clarified earlier. 

So what does it mean by identifying.

So if I ask them, are you Christian she says yes, is that enough? what if she says no first, and I tell her well sorry then I can't go further, then she says well I guess I am Christian but not  following it. what if she says I don't know what I am, but I believe in higher power.

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6 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

it will make sense when you 35 and unmarried.

Well, as demonstrated, the quality of some Muslim men is quite ridiculous and falls way below expectations, so that's a compliment. 

Also, bad grammar and punctuation skills will never make sense...

Edited by 2Timeless

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14 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

If a "Christian" woman is willing to marry a Muslim man, then ironically she is not a woman of the book. If she will marry a Muslim then she is not familiar with the books of the Bible, or she doesn't obey them. 

hi , it's first time that I see such ruling but anyway currently all Christian women are marrying with men from any religion or belief so its an obsolete verse of of bible & historically mother Shah Ismail Safavi the founder of Safavid dynasty  was a Christian woman that died as as a Christian which didn't convert to Islam but with help of Mutah (temporary marriage) get married with father of Shah Ismail that maybe it is one of reasons which wahabis are using children of mutah beside safavid title for insulting to Shias of Iran anyway this chapter of bible is near to verses of Qur'an that mentions between childrens of Prophet Ibrahim the position of Imamate doesn't reach to unjust &wrongdoers from his children.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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15 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

it will make sense when you 35 and unmarried.

Rude post to the sister or are you advertising yourself as a fortune teller now? 

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Guest Monaad
On 10/7/2019 at 3:43 PM, 2Timeless said:

The real question is, why marry ahl al kitab (especially when lack of practice is commonplace) when you could easily marry a practicing Muslim woman (revert or not)?  

And the excuse of "I live in the west" is irrelevant because there are Muslims living in every corner of the world. I myself have personally seen how diverse the backgrounds of young Muslims are in this day and age. 

probably they might be better looking?.......

On 10/7/2019 at 5:06 PM, 2Timeless said:

@AkhiraisReal it's not womens fauly that men are finding it so hard to match the many talents of the modern Muslim woman. 

PS. Half of that post makes 0 sense..

you need to unhinge your self with the assumption that YOU and Muslim females are some special houris on Earth. Men are not finding it hard, they just calculate a choice based on neccesity. Have a healthy relationship with a female now who is not as absored with monitary value, as both are students, or wait until they have accumiliated a house,car, high paid job, status, prestige, then someone in their family or mosque will decide who they will be allocated based on that worth?.

This has been written many times, yet you and many others constantly ignore this simple piece of rational fact. Consider that in the west, depending on the demographic, a Muslim male or female will see mostly non-Muslim, and as a human we have choices on who we want to be with. Just because a persons dawns a beard or headscarft does not neccesitate that they should be with that person. Go read the narrations, you will see the bias's in there too. Now if a person were in a Muslim country surrounded by Muslims, then the choice would be greater. Simple science. You do not need religion to teach you such basics. Eventually intellect should find its way there.

7 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Rude post to the sister or are you advertising yourself as a fortune teller now? 

I'd say he meant, that after a certain age, ideas or the outlook will change too.

 

17 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Well, as demonstrated, the quality of some Muslim men is quite ridiculous and falls way below expectations, so that's a compliment. 

stop projecting. it is getting repetitive in almost all your posts. But I suppose it does tell you why Muslim men marry outside.

 

17 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

the reason why most Muslim women say temporary marriages are out of the question is because men usually use and abuse them and then walk onto the next woman. 

Religiously a man can. And once again is repeat. Temporary marriage is a contract between two agreeing parties, knowing the end result. What part of this cannot you comprehend??

Edited by Hameedeh
Request to fix quote. Edit was made.

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1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

Rude post to the sister or are you advertising yourself as a fortune teller now? 

Sometimes the truth can hurt.

And I am just scratching the surface.

This is the reality for many of us sisters and brothers unless you are of the lucky few.

Why else do you think every week we have new mutah threads and threads about istimna and other issues. People have left marriage for something else. Marriage is supposed to cover 50% of our deen, but people have made it so hard to get married nowadays. So they turn to shaytan, because shaytan has the easy solutions for the problems.

Do you know how much the sex industry which includes porn and sex toys and prostitution makes? Guess what, it's only improving, we now have virtual porn and sex robots that look like super models and can act like real women and give you services you want, without any responsibility.

why has the world become like that? we are all part of the problem. We have made it hard for us youngsters to get married, we don't like polygyny, we don't like marrying at young age. We have left the sunnah and the word of our Ahlul Bayt and Allah for this dunya, the hunt for this dunya.

This dunya is made to make us physically, mentally, spiritually sick. Why else would so many people be on drugs?

within some few years people won't even bother to get married, it's out of the window.

Edited by AkhiraisReal

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On 10/7/2019 at 8:48 AM, Moalfas said:

There are many Muslims who do not attend mosques, who drink and who do not dress modestly etc. One cannot say they are not Muslim.

The same would apply to Christians. Therefore the validity of the marriage contract is not compromised as long as one identifies as from AhlulKitab. 

Those are Muharramat. What current Christians are doing is Shirk. I believe this is the issue the OP is wondering about.

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11 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

@Moalfas the reason why most Muslim women say temporary marriages are out of the question is because men usually use and abuse them and then walk onto the next woman. 

I agree with this 100%. There should be a re-education about the ethics and goals of Mutah because many people use it no differently than prostitution.

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27 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

okay, but don't say I didn't warn you.

Warn me on what? You literally cannot change the translation of language.  I'm honestly tired of your conspiracy theories. So childish. 

Edited by 2Timeless
Typo

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31 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Educate me on what? You literally cannot change the translation of language.  I'm honestly tired of your conspiracy theories. So childish. 

Maybe you should look up "word magic" "perversion of language" "Quantum english David Wynn Miller"

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3 hours ago, Guest Monaad said:

probably they might be better looking?.......

 

Because Muslim women never do any physical activity, very few might do. There are many ways they can do that without interacting with non mahrams.

After some few years majority of them let loss and go chubby, or simple don't care of weight management.

 

Edited by AkhiraisReal

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