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In the Name of God بسم الله

Student loan in the United Kingdom, permissible?

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  • Advanced Member

Salam,

I'm seeing conflicting views on this matter, so I want to become 100% certain before making a decision.

What is Ayatallah Sistani's ruling on getting student loan from the government, with the conditions that:

1- You don't need to start paying the debt until after you graduate.

2- You don't pay anything until your income goes over a certain threshold.

3- It only covers the tuition fee and not mainetenance, eg cost of living.

4- After 30 years, the outstanding balance will be written off, regardless of how much is left.

5- Interest accrues from the first payment the government sends to the university.

Also another question, regarding khums. In some other threads, I read that I need to pay khums on student loan? Cause the government doesn't pay the loan directly to my account, but rather directly to the university. This could be applicable in the case of maintenance loans?

I need to make a quick decision, that's why I didn't ask directly from their website.

Thanks for taking the time to read it.

 

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  • Advanced Member

Salams 

It is permissible to obtain a student loan through UCAS but your intention Niya must not be to pay back with interest. I.e. Your Niya is to obtain the loan to further your education for instance. 

You still must pay it back according to the loan conditions they stipulate etc 

All the Shia students in the United Kingdom go with the process with no issues. 

Find below the answer from Sayed Sistani's website:

Question: Can I a take bank loan knowing that the bank will charge interest?

Answer: Taking an interest based loan is not permissible except for when it is very urgent; it is necessary that he should do so with the intention that it is a transaction without return, even if he knows that he will end up paying the capital as well as the interest. And he should not do so with the intention of getting the loan with the condition of paying interest.
 
 
As for your question regarding Khums, I will quote Sayed Sistani's website:
 
Khums is obligatory in what has surpassed his annual needs,
 
So it applies to money and property/valuables that you haven't used for a whole year. This does not apply to a loan that is paid as fees directly to the university. But could apply to the maintenance loan that you receive and keep if the money is not used/needed for a whole year. 
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2 hours ago, Moalfas said:

Taking an interest based loan is not permissible except for when it is very urgent;

Is education considered very urgent? 

Also, isnt it haram for the student to get the loan with the intention of paying interest, when the whole loan itself lies upon the student agreeing on paying interest when they start earning enough money? 

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3 hours ago, Moalfas said:

Salams 

It is permissible to obtain a student loan through UCAS but your intention Niya must not be to pay back with interest. I.e. Your Niya is to obtain the loan to further your education for instance. 

You still must pay it back according to the loan conditions they stipulate etc 

All the Shia students in the United Kingdom go with the process with no issues. 

Find below the answer from Sayed Sistani's website:

Question: Can I a take bank loan knowing that the bank will charge interest?

Answer: Taking an interest based loan is not permissible except for when it is very urgent; it is necessary that he should do so with the intention that it is a transaction without return, even if he knows that he will end up paying the capital as well as the interest. And he should not do so with the intention of getting the loan with the condition of paying interest.
 
 
As for your question regarding Khums, I will quote Sayed Sistani's website:
 
Khums is obligatory in what has surpassed his annual needs,
 
So it applies to money and property/valuables that you haven't used for a whole year. This does not apply to a loan that is paid as fees directly to the university. But could apply to the maintenance loan that you receive and keep if the money is not used/needed for a whole year. 

Thanks for the answer, It clears out most of my questions. 

 

1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

Is education considered very urgent? 

Also, isnt it haram for the student to get the loan with the intention of paying interest, when the whole loan itself lies upon the student agreeing on paying interest when they start earning enough money? 

This is the part where we have to investigate more. I don't think education can be considered urgent, but it is important for using it to have better career prospects and provide for one's family.

Edited by The Light
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11 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Is education considered very urgent? 

Also, isnt it haram for the student to get the loan with the intention of paying interest, when the whole loan itself lies upon the student agreeing on paying interest when they start earning enough money? 

The actual wording 'urgent' here is not exclusive to time sensitive matters.

Islam highly recommends furthering education and seeking knowledge and the costs of university are extremely high and the general majority of United Kingdom based students need a student loan in order to cover the astronomical fees.

We know that Interest is Haram but in cases like student loans, one has no other choice so the Maraje has made it permissible by simply changing the Niya (intention) 

There are complex details like 

استحواذ

That relate to the technicalities of how it can be permissible but I don't want to get into it because it gets long and complicated 

In essence, your intention or Niya is not to 'take out a loan with interest' 

You will still have to pay it back according to the conditions stipulated by the lender as that's a legal contract - you have no control over that just like having no control over paying your taxes.

This is again is in laymen's terms as the details are long and complex and would need a thread or two. 

 

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11 hours ago, The Light said:

Thanks for the answer, It clears out most of my questions. 

 

This is the part where we have to investigate more. I don't think education can be considered urgent, but it is important for using it to have better career prospects and provide for one's family.

If you want to put your mind to rest, feel free to contact the office of the representative of Sayed Sistani in London to get confirmation:

Imam Ali Foundation

+44 20 8459 8164

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10 hours ago, Moalfas said:

We know that Interest is Haram but in cases like student loans, one has no other choice so the Maraje has made it permissible by simply changing the Niya (intention) 

Thank you for your response. 

My point is, technically, we will survive without getting a degree. Its not extremely necessary to get a degree when it means possibly committing haram (paying interest). As for your point on furthering education, that could be done without actually attending university.  

I'm in education  myself and I know how valuable it is for a persons life etc. But if we look at things in the grand scheme of things, is it necessary to go through all that hassle Islamically?

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19 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Thank you for your response. 

My point is, technically, we will survive without getting a degree. Its not extremely necessary to get a degree when it means possibly committing haram (paying interest). As for your point on furthering education, that could be done without actually attending university.  

I'm in education  myself and I know how valuable it is for a persons life etc. But if we look at things in the grand scheme of things, is it necessary to go through all that hassle Islamically?

This is the most certified answer here. 

Staying on topic...You have to understand what you want to do, most people with the highest knowledge in a subject or are successful within a subject don't have a university degree. Just sheer will to learn via resources around them. 

Edited by حسين
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2 minutes ago, حسين said:

This is the most certified answer here. 

Staying on topic...You have to understand what you want to do, most people with the highest knowledge in a subject or are successful within a subject don't have a university degree. Just sheer will to learn via resources around them. 

Yes but those people with the highest knowledge and success are an anomaly. If it were the norm people would save themselves the thousands of pounds and years wasted on studying. Not anyone can be a self-made billionaire or entrepreneur etc. For the most of us, the support provided by a university degree in so many aspects, is essential for success. 

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1 minute ago, 2Timeless said:

Yes but those people with the highest knowledge and success are an anomaly. If it were the norm people would save themselves the thousands of pounds and years wasted on studying. Not anyone can be a self-made billionaire or entrepreneur etc. For the most of us, the support provided by a university degree in so many aspects, is essential for success. 

No, nothing special about them. Well, actually other than the fact they won't make excuses as to why they won't be successful or knowledgeable in a certain field.

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5 minutes ago, حسين said:

No, nothing special about them. Well, actually other than the fact they won't make excuses as to why they won't be successful or knowledgeable in a certain field.

It doesnt necessarily mean that they're special, just unique. We all have characteristics that make us unique. Some either make us financially/emotionally/spiritually/ mentally/academically successful.

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2 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Thank you for your response. 

My point is, technically, we will survive without getting a degree. Its not extremely necessary to get a degree when it means possibly committing haram (paying interest). As for your point on furthering education, that could be done without actually attending university.  

I'm in education  myself and I know how valuable it is for a persons life etc. But if we look at things in the grand scheme of things, is it necessary to go through all that hassle Islamically?

You're welcome. And your points are valid and understood. 

Using a different intention نية is precisely the solution so there is no Haram being committed.

I personally have always supported the notion of non exclusivity to academia in gaining knowledge. But I also accept that certain people will have no choice but to go through university as we will always need doctors, engineers, lawyers etc.

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A lot of people like myself, need to go through formal education to get to where they want to be. Especially if it's a technical field. Some careers require you to have a degree of some sort, otherwise you cannot get your foot into the door. Or at the very least, it's very difficult.

If you're saying, 'well there's a million things you can do to provide sustenance for yourself', then I would say that's not feasible in this era. Not everyone has the aptitude or means to run a successful business. Sure, I'd love to be my own boss. I tried, but I never succeeded.

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21 minutes ago, The Light said:

 Sure, I'd love to be my own boss. I tried, but I never succeeded.

Not succeeding does not amount to failure, it's a part of the learning curve. Eitherway, good luck with whatever path you choose.

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Btw, I emailed Najaf.org website directly, and this is their response:

"It is permissible to take money from the bank that is financed by non-Muslim government or private funds but not with intention of loan. The knowledge that the bank will sooner or later force him to pay the capital as well as the interest does not affect [ the lawfulness of ] his taking the money".

So, it's basically the same as what Moalfas stressed on, the intention is the key here.

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1 hour ago, The Light said:

A lot of people like myself, need to go through formal education to get to where they want to be. Especially if it's a technical field.

Not necessarily. I wouldn't encourage anyone to get a degree unless it's engineering or medical. Anything else can be learnt through cheaper institutions (online and such), mentorships and internships. It is an insane idea to be in debt for that amount. 

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You people are talking about whether student loan is haram or not because it comes with interest.

Meanwhile you have no idea that since your birth via your birth certificate your parents and the system of shaytan, you turned into collateral for the state to borrow more money with interest.

Now tell me isn't that haram? I already have several threads on that. "you are a slave and you have always been" and "who has the absoulute legal authority over your children".

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6 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Not necessarily. I wouldn't encourage anyone to get a degree unless it's engineering or medical. Anything else can be learnt through cheaper institutions (online and such), mentorships and internships. It is an insane idea to be in debt for that amount. 

You are right, but as mentioned before, for many jobs and career paths you are required to have a degree. Many employers wouldn't even get you to the interview stage if you don’t satisfy their academic requirements. The grades and qualifications are just the tip of the iceberg. 

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9 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Not necessarily. I wouldn't encourage anyone to get a degree unless it's engineering or medical. Anything else can be learnt through cheaper institutions (online and such), mentorships and internships. It is an insane idea to be in debt for that amount. 

I agree with you to some extent. With the exception of law, one should go to university only if it's a STEM degree.

"cheaper institutions" are usually of low standard, and majority of internships require you be in your final year of study or a fresh graduate.

 

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before folk get upset, I am also of a low iq.

not logical to pay khums on a loan. It is money borrowed.

Usury is part and parcel of todays world. It is the economic condition that has been placed.

Unless you can figure out a way not to take a loan and gain a scholarship or take a year or two out, save up.

Consider statistics. Do you have an iq of above 130?, what is the chance of you actually using your time wisely at that age?. Chances are super low, considering if that if you were of a high intellectual nature from the onset of birth, you would not be

A: asking such a question

B: getting childlike responses

C: probably figured out a solution and shared it with the world through altruism. Geniuses can share, as they are a cut above the rest in terms of solution and idealisation.

Depending on your educational, career needs and what company you intend to work for, you may need a certificate. Google and Fakebook, and many other firms now look for highly intelligent individuals and many can surpass the degree phase.

LEarn to make your own choices, you do not need to hold someones hand, as you , we cannot know what the future holds. Remember we are dealing with humans whose ego always comes first in making decisions/

This is also a good place to share todays video  - watch it and learn something. Rather he summarises most of the books of the old.

Robert Greene: "The Laws of Human Nature"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcaVhMt71qE

 

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