Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Firstly, an average Muslim isn't dressed in the religious attire of scholars who represent the faith and who are to be held to the highest of standards.  

Hijabis are dressed in Islamic attire and represent the faith with their actions. People who are namned Islamic names, such as the most popular name on planet Earth (Muhammad), also represent Islam with their actions, the list goes on.

 

6 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

This does not negate the fact that every Muslim has a responsibility in that their actions could reflect badly on the faith. However, being in positions of influence and power makes this an extremely serious issue.

Secondly, the Amama (turban), whether black or white is a representation of the Amama of the Prophet saw and therefore, involving it in the hustle and bustle of 'dirty' politics is what reflects badly on the faith. 

Agreed.

Where I disagree with you is your notion of (as I understand it) that Islam and politics should be kept apart and again, to my understanding, your argument is that because a Muslim involved in regulating a society can’t be infalliable he should thus not be involved in regulating society, I.e. involved in politics.

Just because they will not be perfect, does not mean they should not try and strive for it. Otherwise there is no point in trying to be a Muslim to begin with, surely a fallible person will make misstakes that will reflect poorly on the religion at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine
11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Hawza of Iraq have nothing to do with it. And majority of them have nothing to do with politics. Let's not make that common mistake to generalize and put them in bad image when they don't even deserve such a bad talk. 

Im talking about most powerful clerics in Iraq. Yeah and these peoples actions will not send good message for Shia Islam. 

- Hakim

-  Sadr

- Qais Khazali

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine
11 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Hijabis are dressed in Islamic attire and represent the faith with their actions. People who are namned Islamic names, such as the most popular name on planet Earth (Muhammad), also represent Islam with their actions, the list goes on.

 

Agreed.

Where I disagree with you is your notion of (as I understand it) that Islam and politics should be kept apart and again, to my understanding, your argument is that because a Muslim involved in regulating a society can’t be infalliable he should thus not be involved in regulating society, I.e. involved in politics.

Just because they will not be perfect, does not mean they should not try and strive for it. Otherwise there is no point in trying to be a Muslim to begin with, surely a fallible person will make misstakes that will reflect poorly on the religion at some point.

Yes Islam and Politics does not work in Iraq . Each party has their own agenda which leads to corruption and Iraq is good result of that. If you want represent Sunnis/Shias/Christians and Kurds.. You cannot do it with religious party.. These parties only cares about their supporter.. Thats why they are feeding and spoiling them with nice things so they can stay in power meanwhile rest of Iraq is suffering from poverty. If you criticise   this party in their strong hold district they kidnap you and kill you. This happened in Basra. This does not send good message for religion. There has never been good Islamic party in Iraq.  They also rule district via De facto. They put laws in their own hand..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Guest Sunshine said:

Im talking about most powerful clerics in Iraq. Yeah and these peoples actions will not send good message for Shia Islam. 

- Hakim

-  Sadr

- Qais Khazali

 

 

 

I would not even call these people clerics, I wonder what education and how far they even reached.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The part l disagree with:

5 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

The above are two different statements. First you say "the US and it's puppets", then you suggest that it's "somebody" of an unclear nature and that the US does not "direct them" as the US would a puppet.

"Plausible deniability", agreements, consent --are all operational factors. Each a little more sophisticated than a 'masked gunman/gunwoman'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

and represent the faith with their actions

Exactly: it is not the dress/dress-up.

49 minutes ago, Guest Sunshine said:

Yes Islam and Politics does not work in Iraq .

Mostly correct. Like Syria and Lebanon, lraq has large groups that are not Sunni, not Shi'a, not Chr!stian and so forth.

This is why Ba'athism worked fairly well for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Hijabis are dressed in Islamic attire and represent the faith with their actions. People who are namned Islamic names, such as the most popular name on planet Earth (Muhammad), also represent Islam with their actions, the list goes on.

Wearing the Hijab and having a Muslim name does carry responsibility, but it's less than what's expected of someone dressed in the attire of a scholar of the faith.

The responsibility and implications are also reflective of the position held by an individual.

 

Quote

Agreed.

Where I disagree with you is your notion of (as I understand it) that Islam and politics should be kept apart and again, to my understanding, your argument is that because a Muslim involved in regulating a society can’t be infalliable he should thus not be involved in regulating society, I.e. involved in politics.

The issue is not keeping Islam and politics apart. Islamic principles such as justice for instance are inseparable from everyday life.

The problem that I see is two fold: 

1- Individuals in religious attire, talking and acting in the name of faith whilst involved in policies/activities/behaviours that are far from Islam.

2- Individuals in religious attire, who don't necessarily claim to be talking and acting on behalf of the faith, but use and abuse the attire to their advantage. This is also true with 'Islamic' political parties. 

These people have tarnished not just the attire, but have lead to people turning away from the faith. 

Lesson learned: Anyone wanting to get involved in politics should not use the faith as a vessel for personal gains nor should they claim to represent it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

 

 

These Protestors are not peaceful 

It doesn't work that way. You can’t base on one event to destroy the whole image of the protesters. The one who they killed, was wanted kid who sold drugs and have killed two salesman and 4 protestors. The protestors condem the act and they say that it is wrong;

Thursday’s bloodshed began when the young gunman opened fire in Baghdad’s Wathba Square, killing two shop owners and four protesters.. Security officials said the teen was wanted by police on drug-related charges and was running from security forces at the time.

An enraged mob beat the young man to death, security and health officials said. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity in line with regulations. At least eight people were wounded, the officials said.

...The killing of the teenager was condemned by the wider protest movement in Tahrir Square, which said in a statement that the perpetrators were not part of their peaceful demonstrations.

“We can’t allow the image of our pure revolution to be distorted, so we declare that we are innocent as peaceful demonstrators to what happened this morning in Wathba Square,” the statement said.

https://apnews.com/956d6e16a4dcdc22883d0b051bd5f550


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Do you know who is that politician, he is Izzat Al-Shabandar, the same and the only guy who said in tv that amoung the protestors there is inside and outside Jinns.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine
2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Exactly: it is not the dress/dress-up.

Mostly correct. Like Syria and Lebanon, lraq has large groups that are not Sunni, not Shi'a, not Chr!stian and so forth.

This is why Ba'athism worked fairly well for a while.

I agree. Iraq has so many different ethnic groups and religion/religion sect. The only way forward is civil government.  The Islamic rule might work in other countries that are 100% Sunnis or 100% Shias but not in Iraq. Its also not working on Lebanon.  Our own Shia are divided  in Iraq. Its very complex and messy situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Guest Sunshine said:

This is ridiculous accusation. Usa barely have power in Iraq anymore. It is right now 90% For Iran. Its the Iranian backed  militants that are killing people and they are getting support from government because the government is filled with Iran backed clerics and generals.  Qais Al-Khazali was founder of Death squad that killed a lot of innocent people.. What in the world he is doing in the government? If you think Shia clerics cannot do ill you are completely wrong. The  current Shia religious clerics arent angels at all. There is on going  daily massacre of Journalist and civil activist and they are only  threat to Iranian backed armies and government. Its not hard know who these so called "Unknown" militants are. They are currently trying to  clean their image with conspiracy theories in social media.. Blaming Usa and Israel for everything.

Yikes. I hadn't read about this group before. Thanks for the share.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine

Pro Iranian Iraqis  are using Wathba indicates as propaganda tool and they are painting Protester as some kind of evil people in social media. . Yet they are totally fine when these protester get butchered daily.. It is incredible sad situation. Im completely honest with you people and this is not hyperbole. There is not going to be Iraq anymore if these Pro Iranian and Government wins this battle.  Iraqi fertility rates are absolutely bonkers and High fertility  gives rise to significant social and economic burdens. The GDP growth is so low that they will never outpace the fertility rates . Iraq will turn like Egypt where one in three Egyptians suffer from poverty. 46% of children age of 5 suffer form anemia, which is a nutrient deficiency. People are forgetting how much regular Iraqis are suffering daily and these people are really really worried about Rioters... Like if they where some Isis members!! This situation is so frustration and sad. I don’t know why Iranian backed are turning against people that want better Iraq. If they really cared about their religion they would understand their suffering but propaganda and fake news is just powerful tool.  Protester and the Pro Iranians both loves Imam hussain (Piece upon him) and yet they are painting the poor people as evil and American asset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine

This how the 16 years old boy was killed.  There is no graphics footage. . Police killed him and they  just  dumped his body...  There is second video where the protester took his body out from same orange  building but it has Graphic footage so Im not going post it.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I would not even call these people clerics, I wonder what education and how far they even reached.

If we looked up their education, how would they differ from other clerics? Is this information public knowledge?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Guest Sunshine said:

I agree. Iraq has so many different ethnic groups and religion/religion sect. The only way forward is civil government.  The Islamic rule might work in other countries that are 100% Sunnis or 100% Shias but not in Iraq. Its also not working on Lebanon.  Our own Shia are divided  in Iraq. Its very complex and messy situation.

I am partially agree with you. With the religious demography of Iraq it is impossible to have a similar system that we have in Iran. However I think à pure civil system would not be really appropriate. It would be great to have a system which respect laws and rules which are common according to both Sunni and Shia Muslims. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've largely supported the Iraqi protesters, but seeing the recent event (https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/12/13/613545/Iraq-shocking-video-teenager-lynch) in Iraq... I'm shocked to say the least. This is disgusting, barbaric, inhumane and unislamic. How can so many people, especially Shias, not speak out during the barbaric mutilation of the body in the video??? How did the allow this to happen??? They've lost my support.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He is just an innocent teenager to tried to protect his house from being ravaged by the protesters.... May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punish the criminals who did this and the cowards who stood by silently

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The killing of the teenager was condemned by the wider protest movement in Tahrir Square, which said in a statement that the perpetrators were not part of their peaceful demonstrations

What a lie!!! Look at the video linked in the two posts above, thousands of them are standing by doing/saying nothing to the lynching being commited. Hundreds have their phones out and they are just staring like dumb cattle.

Is this your revolution for justice and equality?? 

These protesters showed they are no better than ISIS. I'd advise all Shia brothers to separate from this despicable movement. 

Any positive reform in Iraq will come from a movement led by Sayed Sistani, not these stupid unjust thugs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://en.abna24.com/news//ayatollah-Sistani-strongly-condemns-protesters’-gruesome-lynching-of-teenager_993452.html

"In a statement read out by his representative during a sermon on Friday, Ayatollah Sistani said the recurrence of such crimes will impact the stability of Iraq and peaceful demonstrations in the country.

The top cleric expressed regret that a huge crowd of people stood idly by and just watched and even participated in the heinous crime. He called for the punishment of those behind the violence.

“The gruesome murder and hanging of the victim is a crime whose perpetrators must be held accountable,” Ayatollah Sistani said.

On Thursday, a group of “protesters” in Baghdad stabbed into death and cut the throat of Haitham Ali Ismael before hanging him by his ankles.

The boy had been berating the protesters for three days for obstructing the street beside his house and making noise, but he had been largely ignored.

Witnesses said he climbed up onto the roof of his house on Thursday and began shooting in the air with a pistol in order to shoo the protesters away from his family’s home.

That prompted a mob of protesters to barge into his small house at the edge of the Al Wathba Square where Haitham lived with his mother and stabbed him for 17 times.

Then they took him outside, pulled off his clothes, dragged him bleeding through the streets, hung him by his ankles from a traffic light pole and cut his throat." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine
34 minutes ago, Kaya said:

https://en.abna24.com/news//ayatollah-Sistani-strongly-condemns-protesters’-gruesome-lynching-of-teenager_993452.html

"In a statement read out by his representative during a sermon on Friday, Ayatollah Sistani said the recurrence of such crimes will impact the stability of Iraq and peaceful demonstrations in the country.

The top cleric expressed regret that a huge crowd of people stood idly by and just watched and even participated in the heinous crime. He called for the punishment of those behind the violence.

“The gruesome murder and hanging of the victim is a crime whose perpetrators must be held accountable,” Ayatollah Sistani said.

On Thursday, a group of “protesters” in Baghdad stabbed into death and cut the throat of Haitham Ali Ismael before hanging him by his ankles.

The boy had been berating the protesters for three days for obstructing the street beside his house and making noise, but he had been largely ignored.

Witnesses said he climbed up onto the roof of his house on Thursday and began shooting in the air with a pistol in order to shoo the protesters away from his family’s home.

That prompted a mob of protesters to barge into his small house at the edge of the Al Wathba Square where Haitham lived with his mother and stabbed him for 17 times.

Then they took him outside, pulled off his clothes, dragged him bleeding through the streets, hung him by his ankles from a traffic light pole and cut his throat." 

 

Ahblubayt news is no credible new source.. It has been already confirmed that the boy killed 6 people and the riot police killed him after he started  shooting people to death. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine
54 minutes ago, Kaya said:

What a lie!!! Look at the video linked in the two posts above, thousands of them are standing by doing/saying nothing to the lynching being commited. Hundreds have their phones out and they are just staring like dumb cattle.

Is this your revolution for justice and equality?? 

These protesters showed they are no better than ISIS. I'd advise all Shia brothers to separate from this despicable movement. 

Any positive reform in Iraq will come from a movement led by Sayed Sistani, not these stupid unjust thugs. 

He was already death when these people started to humiliate his body. The riot police killed him in same building where the mobs took his body. You can clearly see it form the two videos. It has been already confirmed by many sources that the boy killed over 6 people and Police was after him. We cannot control every individual. The protest in Iraq is largest since Saddam regime and almost 30 millions of people have participated in. The protest movement has already code name it.  You will always find bad guys in middle of millions of people especially in country that  has 60% youth population and high poverty rate and daily violence. It also concerning that you are not worried about Iran backed militants and Government killing innocent protester daily but somehow this breaks the camels back. If you are painting protester as Isis you are basically painting Iraqis as Isis members. You are giving reason for militants to kill innocent protesters.. There is not going to be any reforms without protest movement because they are the biggest force that can pressure government. If Sayed Sistani was powerful he would achieve these reforms decades ago. If government is not willing to do any reforms.. You are going to see coup in Iraq. The situation is very desperate and you Should understand the protester needs rather than just demonizing them. They are Shia Muslims like you are.. They are not terrorist!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kaya said:

What a lie!!! Look at the video linked in the two posts above, thousands of them are standing by doing/saying nothing to the lynching being commited. Hundreds have their phones out and they are just staring like dumb cattle.

Is this your revolution for justice and equality?? 

These protesters showed they are no better than ISIS. I'd advise all Shia brothers to separate from this despicable movement. 

Subhanallah, I'm sorry to tell this but I don't understand what is wrong with you people when a mujrim who committed serious crime and was shamefully killed (and of course most of people are not agreeing to kill him that way), you use it as an excuse that THE WHOLE protestors are evil, injustice and ISIS. It doesn't matter what people say, protesting against evil government is a good thing and it is meant to happen.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Guest Sunshine said:

Ahblubayt news

It's a Shia news site. Show me one example where they have misquoted Sayed Sistani in the past. 

1 hour ago, Guest Sunshine said:

If you are painting protester as Isis you are basically painting Iraqis as Isis members.

ISIS had Iraqi members too, what's the difference? 

I am saying that what these protesters did is no different than the Isis public executions. I view them the same. 

1 hour ago, Guest Sunshine said:

If Sayed Sistani was powerful he would achieve these reforms decades ago.

If the protesters went to Sayed Sistani, asked for his guidance, went on the street with his pictures, shouted slogans for him, and asked for a government to be chosen by him, you will 100% see him take action and bring justice in Iraq.

However, what you have is a bunch of irreligious undisciplined young fools on the street abusing the rights of people and even going as far as lynching someone and mutilating his corpse.

Of course Sayed Sistani can't do anything with the likes of them! 

6 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

mujrim who committed serious crime and was shamefully killed

I guess you would be among those who watched by and recorded on your phone. Shame on you. 

How quickly people forget that Imam Hussain's body was also mutilated... Seems like no one has learned a lesson in all these centuries. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I guess you would be among those who watched by and recorded on your phone. Shame on you. 

How quickly people forget that Imam Hussain's body was also mutilated... Seems like no one has learned a lesson in all these centuries. 

 

Guessing falsehood about me and you dare to bring the name of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Guest Sunshine said:

Ahblubayt news is no credible new source

Another news website with the same message https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/12/13/613567/Iraq-Sistani-lynch-teenager-wathba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Kaya said:
Quote

The demonstrators called on the Iraqi military to intervene, but some soldiers were attacked when they arrived, adding to the confusion and forcing them to retreat.

No one has claimed responsibility for the lethal assaults, which have been rare since the protests began more than two months ago, but such assaults bear all the hallmarks of Takfiri terrorist groups.

No one has claimed responsibility but presstv conclude with their wisdom and knowledge that it must be a Takfiri terrorist group. Wow how can a takfiri terrorist group reach to baghdad and cause these actions and disappear out of nowhere.

Edited by Abu Nur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sunshine
15 minutes ago, Kaya said:

 ISIS had Iraqi members too, what's the difference? 

Are you deadly serious man? The protester are you regular Iraqis. They don’t belong to any group.

 

Quote

I am saying that what these protesters did is no different than the Isis public executions. I view them the same. 

Yes they did wrong and they should be punished but this not fault of all protester. We don’t have ideology. We want just get rid of corrupt government. There are criminals everywhere.  Iran has public executions. They hang people and stone people death not matter the age limit.

 

Quote


If the protesters went to Sayed Sistani, asked for his guidance, went on the street with his pictures, shouted slogans for him, and asked for a government to be chosen by him, you will 100% see him take action and bring justice in Iraq.

 

 

Are you serious? Iraq has been protesting since 2011 and they have asked Sistani guidance for almost over decade  but nobody from Government are listening him. He does not have power anymore. Not much. One of Iranian clerics called him CSI agent at one point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Guessing falsehood about me and you dare to bring the name of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in this?

Why not? Wasn't Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) also murdered and mutilated??

So how can a Shia do exactly the same thing that happened to their beloved Imam to someone else? And how can a movement that claims to be Shia stand by and watch?

If these people on the street come to power, they will be as corrupt as the current leaders in Iraq. They might even be worst honestly. 

They have proven that they are no better than the Iran backed militias and ISIS. Unjust blood is on their hands too, and they are just as barbaric. 

Let them rally around Sayed Sistani if they want to reform Iraq for the better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Guest Sunshine said:

Are you serious? Iraq has been protesting since 2011 and they have asked Sistani guidance for almost over decade  but nobody from Government are listening him. He does not have power anymore. Not much. One of Iranian clerics called him CSI agent at one point.

The reason he does not have power to instantly change the Government is because people are not rallying around him. People are instead on the streets lynching innocent people and spilling blood! 

Honestly, I see no future for Iraq except with Sayed Sistani. A country led by those youth on the street will be doomed and crumble quicker than you can imagine. 

The real power is with Sayed Sistani regardless of what most people think. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Kaya said:

Why not? Wasn't Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) also murdered and mutilated??

So how can a Shia do exactly the same thing that happened to their beloved Imam to someone else? And how can a movement that claims to be Shia stand by and watch?

If these people on the street come to power, they will be as corrupt as the current leaders in Iraq. They might even be worst honestly. 

They have proven that they are no better than the Iran backed militias and ISIS. Unjust blood is on their hands too, and they are just as barbaric. 

Let them rally around Sayed Sistani if they want to reform Iraq for the better. 

Why not stop guessing falsehood before to dare to talk about Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Do you really think that we and majority of people are accepting of what they did to that mujrim person. Of course it is wrong, of course it must be condemn. Ayotullah Sistani is guiding the masses to stay peacefully and don't follow these kind of actions.  But you are the one who is doing the biggest mistake by justifying a little group with all the effort of protesters who so many of them have died by peacefully protesting. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...