Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I know there is a difference of opinion about this one. Was Pharaoh's profession of faith in the last moments of his life accepted or rejected?

وَجَاوَزۡنَا بِبَنِىۡۤ اِسۡرَآءِيۡلَ الۡبَحۡرَ فَاَتۡبـَعَهُمۡ فِرۡعَوۡنُ وَجُنُوۡدُهٗ بَغۡيًا وَّعَدۡوًا ؕ حَتّٰۤى اِذَاۤ اَدۡرَكَهُ الۡغَرَقُ قَالَ اٰمَنۡتُ اَنَّهٗ لَاۤ اِلٰهَ اِلَّا الَّذِىۡۤ اٰمَنَتۡ بِهٖ بَنُوۡۤا اِسۡرَآءِيۡلَ وَ اَنَا مِنَ الۡمُسۡلِمِيۡنَ‏ 

"And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said: 'I believe that there is no God except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who submit themselves to God’" (10:90)

So he seems to have repented and believed in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). My opinion is that it that his repentance is accepted because God's mercy is too vast to not accept the repentance of someone who is asking for divine mercy. The Qu'ran says ‘It is He who responds to the man in need when he calls on Him and removes the evil' (27:62)

And in other verses in the Qu'ran it says, ‘Let the people of Pharaoh enter’ (Hell) and not: Pharaoh and his people. If the verses had said Pharaoh and his people, it would be clear that Pharaoh was also in Hell, but the verse only states that his people enter there.

Thoughts??

Edited by Kaya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pharoah's confession was too little too late:

ءَآلْئٰنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنْتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ
"Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?"
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 91)

And thus his punishment started:

فَالْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ ءَايَةً  ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ عَنْ ءَايٰتِنَا لَغٰفِلُونَ
"So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless"
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 92)

And if there's still doubt as to his fate, then this should be clear enough:

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يٰٓأَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُمْ مِّنْ إِلٰهٍ غَيْرِى فَأَوْقِدْ لِى يٰهٰمٰنُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّى صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّىٓ أَطَّلِعُ إِلٰىٓ إِلٰهِ مُوسٰى وَإِنِّى لَأَظُنُّهُۥ مِنَ الْكٰذِبِينَ
"And Pharaoh said, O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a God other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 38)

وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُۥ فِى الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوٓا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ
"And he was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 39)

فَأَخَذْنٰهُ وَجُنُودَهُۥ فَنَبَذْنٰهُمْ فِى الْيَمِّ  ۖ فَانْظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عٰقِبَةُ الظّٰلِمِينَ
"So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 40)

وَجَعَلْنٰهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ  ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيٰمَةِ لَا يُنْصَرُونَ
"And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 41)

وَأَتْبَعْنٰهُمْ فِى هٰذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً  ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيٰمَةِ هُمْ مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ
"And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 42)

Wallahu Alam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the face of death such statements aren't accepted, I imagine that is why one can do taqqiyah without the words being held against you, because in the face of death we say things to avoid it. The Pharaoh likely hoped that he would be saved in this life or the next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

In the face of death such statements aren't accepted, I imagine that is why one can do taqqiyah without the words being held against you, because in the face of death we say things to avoid it. The Pharaoh likely hoped that he would be saved in this life or the next.

What does the closeness of death change when it comes to repentance? The importance is whether it was sincere repentance or insincere repentance, right? 

Proof that the closeness of death is irrelevant:

The Prophet (S) said: “Anyone who repents a single year before death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A year is very much. He who repents a month before his death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A month is also very much. He who repents a week before his death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A week is very much. He who repents a day before death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A day is very much. He who repents before he closes his eyes for death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah.

Source: https://www.al-Islam.org/ahlul-bayt-ethical-role-models-Sayyid-Mahdi-sadr/repentance (Quoted from al-Wafi; part 3 page 182 (as quoted from al- Kafi).

As for the verse 4:18 where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says: "But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.". This verse refers to someone simply "saying" that he repents. Similar to the Bedouin Arabs mentioned in the verse 49:14 "The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts". Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says that faith has not entered into their hearts even though they said "We have believed".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for Pharaoh's repentance being being sincere, one of the proofs is Qu'ran verse 20:43-44.

"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh ... And speak to him with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]."

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) brings forth a wish (tarajjā) that Pharaoh should remember, and feel fear. So, this must necessarily come true, because whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wishes occurs. So Pharaoh did eventually remember and fear God, because this was God's will. This can also be seen in the verse:

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

ءَآلْئٰنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنْتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ
"Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?"
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 91)

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says "Now (you believed) And you had disobeyed before and were of the corrupter". Notice that no negative attribute is given to Pharaoh in the present tense in this verse. For example, the verse says "you were" of the corrupters, I.e. you are no longer. And "you had disobeyed", I.e. your current profession of faith is not disobedience. 

If he was not sincere in his repentance, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) could have said "You have not yet believed" similar to how he said to the desert Bedouins in verse 49:14: "The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts".

But the verse says "Now?", which affirms that his faith was true and sincere. I.e. you have now believed, whereas we had sent warnings to you much before also. In contrast, the bedouins said they believed but it was just external profession of faith, and on the inside they still had not grasped the true essence of faith.

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

"So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless"
(QS. Yunus 10: Verse 92)

Here it says that "We will save in you in body" before we take your soul while drowning, "that you may be a sign...". So the good news of acceptance of repentance is given to Pharaoh while he is still in his body. Because his repentance at the last moment does not avert the disaster that he is in this world (the water that he eventually drowns in). Rather, the danger of the Hereafter (Hell) is averted from him because of his repentance. The only exception to this rule is the people of Jonah (عليه السلام) who repented and they were saved both from the punishment of this world and the hereafter:

"Then has there not been a [single] city that believed so its faith benefited it except the people of Jonah? When they believed, We removed from them the punishment of disgrace in worldly life and gave them enjoyment for a time." 10:98

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kaya said:

As for Pharaoh's repentance being being sincere, one of the proofs is Qu'ran verse 20:43-44.

:bismillah:

Salamun Alaykum Brother! 

The following verses should be sufficient for knowing his adobe is:

 

Quote

فَوَقَاهُ اللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِ مَا مَكَرُوا ۖ وَحَاقَ بِآلِ فِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ الْعَذَابِ {45}

[Shakir 40:45] So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned, and the most evil punishment overtook Firon's people:
[Pickthal 40:45] So Allah warded off from him the evils which they plotted, while a dreadful doom encompassed Pharaoh's folk,
[Yusufali 40:45] Then Allah saved him from (every) ill that they plotted (against him), but the burnt of the Penalty encompassed on all sides the People of Pharaoh.

النَّارُ يُعْرَضُونَ عَلَيْهَا غُدُوًّا وَعَشِيًّا ۖ وَيَوْمَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ أَدْخِلُوا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ أَشَدَّ الْعَذَابِ {46}

[Shakir 40:46] The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement.
[Pickthal 40:46] The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said): Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.
[Yusufali 40:46] In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening: And (the sentence will be) on the Day that Judgment will be established: "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty!"
 

Wassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Kaya said:

As for Pharaoh's repentance being being sincere, one of the proofs is Qu'ran verse 20:43-44.

Salam his repentance wasn't sincere , he just repented to save his life but his heart was against his repentance like as Abusufyan (la) & his wife & Muawiah (la) that just accepted Islam to save their lifes when they saw entrance of Muslims to Mecca but they didn't accept Islam by their heart that after demise of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) they returned to their former belief but they pretended that are Muslims  to establish their empire to destroy heritage of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that Muawiah (la) & Yazeed (la) were acting like as Pharaoh or even worse than him. .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam his repentance wasn't sincere , he just repented to save his life

That's what I was trying to get at. He knew his life was coming to an end so repented out of fear, not because he truly wanted to believe. He had all of the time to repent but only did so when he knew he was done for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam his repentance wasn't sincere , he just repented to save his life but his heart was against his repentance like as Abusufyan (la) & his wife & Muawiah (la) that just accepted Islam to save their lifes when they saw entrance of Muslims to Mecca but they didn't accept Islam by their heart that after demise of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) they returned to their former belief but they pretended that are Muslims  to establish their empire to destroy heritage of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that Muawiah (la) & Yazeed (la) were acting like as Pharaoh or even worse than him. .

Salam I suppose it is true that Allah would have forgiven him had his repentance been sincere which can be seen from below:

Quote

في الفقيه، قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) في آخر خطبة خطبها: من تاب قبل موته بسنة تاب الله عليه، ثم قال: إن السنة لكثيرة و من تاب قبل موته بشهر تاب الله عليه، ثم قال: و إن الشهر لكثير و من تاب قبل موته بيوم تاب الله عليه، ثم قال: و إن اليوم لكثير و من تاب قبل موته بساعة تاب الله عليه، ثم قال: و إن الساعة لكثيرة من تاب و قد بلغت نفسه هذه و أهوى بيده إلى حلقه تاب الله عليه

The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and his family) said in the last sermon of his sermons: Whoever repents one year before his death, Allah will forgive him, and then said: One year is too much and then he who repents one month before his death, Allah will forgive and then said: One month is too much, whoever repents the Friday before his death, Allah will forgive him, and then said: One Friday is too much, anyone who repents an hour before his death, Allah will forgive him, and then said: One hours is too much, whoever repents in his last breath before his death, Allah will forgive him (Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). put his hand on his throat).
Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih Book of Cleanliness Version 4 Chapter 1 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salamun Alaykum Brother! 

Wa aleikum salam!

5 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

The following verses should be sufficient for knowing his adobe is:

All the verses you quoted say that the People of Pharaoh are in the fire.

Why does it say the People of Pharaoh and not Pharaoh AND his people?

I actually mentioned this point in one of my previous comments:

13 hours ago, Kaya said:

And in other verses in the Qu'ran it says, ‘Let the people of Pharaoh enter’ (Hell) and not: Pharaoh and his people. If the verses had said Pharaoh and his people, it would be clear that Pharaoh was also in Hell, but the verse only states that his people enter there.

Why does it not include Pharaoh unambiguously among the ones who entered the fire? 

The Qu'ran is never shy to clearly state that someone enters hell, for example:

"Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those Prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." 66:10

"May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he. ... He will enter to burn in a Fire of blazing flame." 111:1-3

So this proves that the Qu'ran is never shy to say that someone is in the Fire.

Why does the Qu'ran never unambiguously mention that Pharaoh is in the fire?

It only says that the people of Pharaoh are in the fire, and that they were misled by him during his life.

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam his repentance wasn't sincere , he just repented to save his life but his heart was against his repentance

Do you have a proof for this brother? Unless we can see what is in his heart (which we can't), we need a proof that his repentance was not sincere.

 A proof that it was sincere is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says:

"Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?" 10:91

Allah says 'Now', affirming that he at that moment had sincere faith. The reason why it is posed as a question is because He emphasizes that Pharaoh delayed his repentance for a long time.

Why would Allah say 'Now', unless Pharaoh at that moment had faith?

Furthermore, Allah says:

"So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless" 10:92

How was Pharaoh saved by Allah in body when we know that Pharaoh immediately drowned after this verse? But the verse says ' We will save you in body'.

So this must necessarily mean 'We will save you in (your) body' before we take your spirit from it, 'that you may be to those who succeed you a sign' that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can forgive all sins. Furthermore, it says 'And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless', meaning that not too many people will understand this sign of God.

“(Prophet), tell my servants who have committed injustice to themselves, "Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Allah certainly forgives all sins. He is All-forgiving and All-merciful." 39:53

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Abusufyan (la) & his wife & Muawiah (la)

 

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Muawiah (la) & Yazeed (la)

Brother, I agree with you when it comes to Abu Sufyan (la) and Muawiah (la) and Yazeed (la).

But Pharaoh is different because he was a believer once.

The verse about Pharaoh says 'perhaps he may be reminded' (20:43) meaning that he once had believed in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), before the arrogance of position of power made him exceed the limits and say 'I am your Lord Most High'. 

Also why did he just not kill Moses and Harun in the court when they were talking? Pharaoh had all the power in that kingdom, why did he not just kill them?

The necessary conclusion is that the words of Moses had an effect in his heart and he remembered God to at least some degree, so that he did not kill them. The verse says:

"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh ... And speak to him with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]." 20:43

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Salam I suppose it is true that Allah would have forgiven him had his repentance been sincere which can be seen from below:

Salam, though how do you know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) did not forgive him? Do you have any evidence for this?

The text you quoted below just says that Allah forgives someone's repentance even before their death.

Edited by Kaya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Why does it say the People of Pharaoh and not Pharaoh AND his people?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has used two types of phrases to mention Pharoah:

1.  آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ
2.  فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ

In both of them, Pharaoh is included. For instance, lets see the verses for # 1
 

Quote

وَإِذْ نَجَّيْنَاكُمْ مِنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ يُذَبِّحُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ ۚ وَفِي ذَٰلِكُمْ بَلَاءٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَظِيمٌ {49}

[Shakir 2:49] And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.

وَإِذْ فَرَقْنَا بِكُمُ الْبَحْرَ فَأَنْجَيْنَاكُمْ وَأَغْرَقْنَا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَأَنْتُمْ تَنْظُرُونَ {50}

[Shakir 2:50] And when We parted the sea for you, so We saved you and drowned the followers of Firon and you watched by.

Can you claim that it was not Pharaoh who was killing the sons & sparing the women and that it was not the Pharaoh who got drowned but they were the people of Pharaoh? 

Now lets see the verses for # 2 type phrase:

 

Quote

ثُمَّ أَرْسَلْنَا مُوسَىٰ وَأَخَاهُ هَارُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ {45}

[Shakir 23:45] Then We sent Musa and his brother Haroun, with Our communications and a clear authority,

إِلَىٰ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا وَكَانُوا قَوْمًا عَالِينَ {46}

[Shakir 23:46] To Firon and his chiefs, but they behaved haughtily and they were an insolent people.

فَقَالُوا أَنُؤْمِنُ لِبَشَرَيْنِ مِثْلِنَا وَقَوْمُهُمَا لَنَا عَابِدُونَ {47}

[Shakir 23:47] And they said: What! shall we believe in two mortals like ourselves while their people serve us?

فَكَذَّبُوهُمَا فَكَانُوا مِنَ الْمُهْلَكِينَ {48}

[Shakir 23:48] So they rejected them and became of those who were destroyed.

Hope that matter is now clear to you. 

Wassalam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kaya

Any reason why you're ignoring verses 28:38-42?

Categorically says Pharaoh and his soldiers were thrown in to the sea. They were of the wrongdoers. Cursed in this world. Won't be helped and will be despised on the Day of Resurrection. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Can you claim that it was not Pharaoh who was killing the sons & sparing the women and that it was not the Pharaoh who got drowned but they were the people of Pharaoh? 

This is not enough. Is it not possible that in those verses it is strictly talking about the People of Pharaoh? 

Yes, it is true that Pharaoh was drowned. But so were his people. Could the verse be simply talking about his people who died as disbelievers?

8 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

So they rejected them and became of those who were destroyed.

Here the word 'they' could be referring to the 'chiefs' referred to in verse 46.

9 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Hope that matter is now clear to you. 

Thanks but the other questions I had are still not addressed. 

It doesn't seem crystal clear to me that he died an unbeliever.

Wassalam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

@Kaya

Any reason why you're ignoring verses 28:38-42?

Categorically says Pharaoh and his soldiers were thrown in to the sea. They were of the wrongdoers. Cursed in this world. Won't be helped and will be despised on the Day of Resurrection. 

Salam, yes Pharaoh was thrown into the sea and was one of the wrongdoers in this world until faith entered his heart and he remembered God.

The word 'they' again is ambiguous. Does it refer to the people of Pharaoh alone or inclusive with him?

So it doesn't specify Pharaoh among the ones who are not helped on the day or Resurrection.

What I am interested in knowing is whether true faith entered his heart in his last moments of life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Kaya said:

This is not enough. Is it not possible that in those verses it is strictly talking about the People of Pharaoh? 

Yes, it is true that Pharaoh was drowned. But so were his people. Could the verse be simply talking about his people who died as disbelievers?

:D I don't know the reason of your insistence brother!

Here are more examples for # 1
 

Quote

كَدَأْبِ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ وَالَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ ۚ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا فَأَخَذَهُمُ اللَّهُ بِذُنُوبِهِمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ {11}

[Shakir 3:11] Like the striving of the people of Firon and those before them; they rejected Our communications, so Allah destroyed them on account of their faults; and Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

قُلْ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَتُغْلَبُونَ وَتُحْشَرُونَ إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ ۚ وَبِئْسَ الْمِهَادُ {12}

[Shakir 3:12] Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.


Do you still think that Pharaoh is not included here? Then here is another one
 

Quote

وَإِذْ أَنْجَيْنَاكُمْ مِنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ ۖ يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ ۚ وَفِي ذَٰلِكُمْ بَلَاءٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَظِيمٌ {141}

[Shakir 7:141] And when We delivered you from Firon's people who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.

Upon whose command they were killing the sons & sparing the women?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Logic1234 said:

Do you still think that Pharaoh is not included here? Then here is another one

 

2 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Like the striving of the people of Firon

People of Pharaoh, not Pharaoh AND his people. Isn't there a huge difference between these two?

3 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Firon's people

Same thing here as well.

3 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Upon whose command they were killing the sons & sparing the women?

Yes Pharaoh was a tyrant and he exceeded the bounds of his religion by claiming "I am your Lord Most High". He will be held accountable for that. But the topic of discussion is whether his repentance was sincere or not.

And the ones conducting the order in the verse are the people of Pharaoh, right?

Will anyone answer any of the other points I wrote? So far everyone has only focused on the the phrase 'people of Pharaoh' which I feel is insufficient as a proof.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Salam, yes Pharaoh was thrown into the sea and was one of the wrongdoers in this world until faith entered his heart and he remembered God.

What I am interested in knowing is whether true faith entered his heart in his last moments of life.

Wassalaam. Where are you extrapolating the bold part from please?

The verse says:

"So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 40)

Meaning his [and his soldiers] end was that of a wrongdoer.

As to the context of 'they'. Allah has already mentioning two separate parties; Him and his soldiers. Then refers to them as they [after clearly stating Pharaoh and his soldiers died as wrongdoers]. So I don't see the ambiguity?

Wallahu Alam.

Edited by Jaane Rabb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Where are you extrapolating the bold part from please?

I am extrapolating this from his last words, assuming they were sincere:

"'I believe that there is no God except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who submit themselves to God’" (10:90)

And the reason I believe it was sincere is because of several other verses I quoted in my comments above.

15 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

"So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers."
(QS. Al-Qasas 28: Verse 40)

Meaning his [and his soldiers] end was that of a wrongdoer.

To me, this just proves the literal meaning. Pharaoh lived the life of a tyrant, and the 'end' of that life was that he was thrown into the sea as punishment for his wrongdoing.

However, does this conclusively prove that his faith at the end of his life was insincere? I don't think it does.

I talked about this before. His sincere faith at the end of his life does not necessarily avert the punishment in this world, but it averts only the punishment of the Hereafter. The only exception being the people of Jonah (عليه السلام), whose repentance averted both the punishment of this world and the punishment of the Hereafter. 

Edited by Kaya
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kaya said:

However, does this conclusively prove that his faith at the end of his life was insincere? I don't think it does.

Even if sincere, it was too late and wouldn't have been accepted as per verses below:

[4:17] The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

[4:18] But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.

4:18 is making a clear distinction between those that repent upon the approach of death [which is the state that Pharaoh was at when he called out to God] with those that die as disbelievers. Both rejected.

Wallahu Alam.

Edited by Jaane Rabb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Even if sincere, it was too late and wouldn't have been accepted as per verses below:

[4:17] The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

[4:18] But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.

4:18 is making a clear distinction between those that repent upon the approach of death [which is the state that Pharaoh was at when he called out to God] with those that die as disbelievers. Both rejected.

Wallahu Alam.

I addressed this verse already:

13 hours ago, Kaya said:

As for the verse 4:18 where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says: "But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.". This verse refers to someone simply "saying" that he repents. Similar to the Bedouin Arabs mentioned in the verse 49:14 "The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts". Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says that faith has not entered into their hearts even though they said "We have believed".

Your interpretation of this verse is in direct conflict with the words of Rasool Allah (S) who says that repentance just before the moment of death is accepted:

13 hours ago, Kaya said:

The Prophet (S) said: “Anyone who repents a single year before death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A year is very much. He who repents a month before his death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A month is also very much. He who repents a week before his death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A week is very much. He who repents a day before death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah. A day is very much. He who repents before he closes his eyes for death, his repentance will be accepted by Allah.

Source: https://www.al-Islam.org/ahlul-bayt-ethical-role-models-Sayyid-Mahdi-sadr/repentance (Quoted from al-Wafi; part 3 page 182 (as quoted from al- Kafi).

 

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Kaya said:

I addressed this verse already:

Your interpretation of this verse is in direct conflict with the words of Rasool Allah (S) who says that repentance just before the moment of death is accepted:

Thanks.

You mean to say, the hadith is in direct contradiction to the Qur'an in which case the hadith should be discarded.

Hadith is verified by the Qur'an because the Qur'an is al-Furqan, the Criterion.

The words of Allah can never be superseded by words transmitted by man centuries later...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jaane Rabb said:

You mean to say, the hadith is in direct contradiction to the Qur'an in which case the hadith should be discarded.

Hadith is verified by the Qur'an because the Qur'an is al-Furqan, the Criterion.

The words of Allah can never be superseded by words transmitted by man centuries later...

 

Isn't reconciling the hadith and the verse from Qu'ran more reasonable?

The hadith is quoted from al-Kafi, and also on Al-Islam which is a trustworthy source.

The two can be reconciled in the way I explained above. External repentance is different from internal repentance.

I think that jumping to the conclusion that this hadith, which is confirmed by the Shia scholars, is against the Qu'ran, is an unsound conclusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kaya said:

But the topic of discussion is whether his repentance was sincere or not.

Surah Al-Muzzammil, Verse 16:
فَعَصَىٰ فِرْعَوْنُ الرَّسُولَ فَأَخَذْنَاهُ أَخْذًا وَبِيلًا

But Firon disobeyed the apostle, so We laid on him a violent hold.
 

In Chapter 69:

Surah Al-Haaqqa, Verse 9:
وَجَاءَ فِرْعَوْنُ وَمَن قَبْلَهُ وَالْمُؤْتَفِكَاتُ بِالْخَاطِئَةِ

And Firon and those before him and the overthrown cities continuously committed sins.
 

Surah Al-Haaqqa, Verse 10:
فَعَصَوْا رَسُولَ رَبِّهِمْ فَأَخَذَهُمْ أَخْذَةً رَّابِيَةً

And they disobeyed the Apostle of their Lord, so He punished them with a vehement punishment.
 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cool If you read the whole discussion, you'll see that the verses you quoted do not change anything. 

Similar verses where already brought by others and I believe we exhausted the argument that no verse clearly states he is in the hellfire. Feel free to read my previous comments.

1 minute ago, Cool said:

Wait!! Let me guess the answer.

He would probably be in heaven sitting with 70 virgins and enjoy reading your comments.

:hahaha:

Thanks...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Isn't reconciling the hadith and the verse from Qu'ran more reasonable?

The hadith is quoted from al-Kafi, and also on Al-Islam which is a trustworthy source.

The two can be reconciled in the way I explained above. External repentance is different from internal repentance.

I think that jumping to the conclusion that this hadith, which is confirmed by the Shia scholars, is against the Qu'ran, is an unsound conclusion.

No Shia hadith book is considered 100% authentic by scholars.

As a rule of thumb, if a hadith contradicts the Qur'an, it is to be discarded regardless.

I'm sure you've heard or sahih hadith contradicting sahih hadith also? Just an FYI really, but it does happen.

In regards to Al-Kafi:

Quote

According to the great Imami scholar Zayn al-Din al-`Amili, known as al-Shahid al-Thani (911-966/1505-1559), who examined the asnad or the chains of transmission of al-Kafi's traditions, 5,072 are considered sahīh (sound); 144 are regarded as Hasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwaththaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawī‘ (strong) and 9,485 traditions which are categorized as da'if (weak).

In regards to Al-Islam, I can show you two completely opposing articles about the same subject from this site. It has a lot of user submitted articles. I wouldn't take this site with Gospel Qur'an level authenticity. It all needs checking with the Qur'an.

You are free to consider my conclusion unsound.

Fi Amanillah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kaya said:

Similar verses where already brought by others and I believe we exhausted the argument that no verse clearly states he is in the hellfire.

Its what you want to see. 

3 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has used two types of phrases to mention Pharoah:

1.  آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ
2.  فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ

In both of them, Pharaoh is included. For instance, lets see the verses for # 1
 

Can you claim that it was not Pharaoh who was killing the sons & sparing the women and that it was not the Pharaoh who got drowned but they were the people of Pharaoh? 
 

You really need to work hard to prove how Pharaoh was not included in his Aal mentioned in 2:50.

If he is included in the Aal e Fir'on, then the verse of chapter 44:

النَّارُ يُعْرَضُونَ عَلَيْهَا غُدُوًّا وَعَشِيًّا ۖ وَيَوْمَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ أَدْخِلُوا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ أَشَدَّ الْعَذَابِ {46}

[Shakir 40:46] The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jaane Rabb said:

No Shia hadith book is considered 100% authentic by scholars.

As a rule of thumb, if a hadith contradicts the Qur'an, it is to be discarded regardless.

I'm sure you've heard or sahih hadith contradicting sahih hadith also? Just an FYI really, but it does happen.

In regards to Al-Kafi:

In regards to Al-Islam, I can show you two completely opposing articles about the same subject from this site. It has a lot of user submitted articles. I wouldn't take this site with Gospel Qur'an level authenticity. It all needs checking with the Qur'an.

You are free to consider my conclusion unsound.

Fi Amanillah

Unless you have some sort of Islamic degree or Hawzah studies, or you can link to someone who has Hawzah studies and considers this hadith from al-Kafi to be false, then I would have to consider your conclusion unsound unfortunately.

Fi Amanillah brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cool said:

Its what you want to see. 

You really need to work hard to prove how Pharaoh was not included in his Aal mentioned in 2:50.

If he is included in the Aal e Fir'on, then the verse of chapter 44:

النَّارُ يُعْرَضُونَ عَلَيْهَا غُدُوًّا وَعَشِيًّا ۖ وَيَوْمَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ أَدْخِلُوا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ أَشَدَّ الْعَذَابِ {46}

[Shakir 40:46] The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass: Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement.
 

I want a verse like this:

3 hours ago, Kaya said:

"Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those Prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." 66:10

"May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he. ... He will enter to burn in a Fire of blazing flame." 111:1-3

So this proves that the Qu'ran is never shy to say that someone is in the Fire.

Why does the Qu'ran never unambiguously mention that Pharaoh is in the fire?

These two verses are clear cut, no ambiguity whatsoever. Wife of Noah and Wife of Lot and Abu Lahab are in the fire. The verse points them out specifically.

However, there is no similar verse about Pharaoh, including 2:50.

2 hours ago, Kaya said:

Will anyone answer any of the other points I wrote? So far everyone has only focused on the the phrase 'people of Pharaoh' which I feel is insufficient as a proof

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Kaya said:

However, there is no similar verse about Pharaoh, including 2:50.

Yes, perhaps 2:50 giving you the hint that he was not drowned with his army hence not included in Aal e Fir'on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is another evidence:

Surah Yunus, Verse 75:
ثُمَّ بَعَثْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِم مُّوسَىٰ وَهَارُونَ إِلَىٰ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ بِآيَاتِنَا فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا وَكَانُوا قَوْمًا مُّجْرِمِينَ

Then did We send up after them Musa and Haroun to Firon and his chiefs with Our signs, but they showed pride and they were a guilty people.
 

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 40:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا وَاسْتَكْبَرُوا عَنْهَا لَا تُفَتَّحُ لَهُمْ أَبْوَابُ السَّمَاءِ وَلَا يَدْخُلُونَ الْجَنَّةَ حَتَّىٰ يَلِجَ الْجَمَلُ فِي سَمِّ الْخِيَاطِ وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُجْرِمِينَ

Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Yunus, Verse 88:
وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ آتَيْتَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَأَهُ زِينَةً وَأَمْوَالًا فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا رَبَّنَا لِيُضِلُّوا عَن سَبِيلِكَ رَبَّنَا اطْمِسْ عَلَىٰ أَمْوَالِهِمْ وَاشْدُدْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُوا حَتَّىٰ يَرَوُا الْعَذَابَ الْأَلِيمَ

And Musa said: Our Lord! surely Thou hast given to Firon and his chiefs finery and riches in this world's life, to this end, our Lord, that they lead (people) astray from Thy way: Our Lord! destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not until they see the painful punishment.
(English - Shakir)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam

1 minute ago, Cool said:

but they showed pride and they were a guilty people

Yes Pharaoh did show pride and was among the guilty people.

1 minute ago, Cool said:

Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden

Yes those who reject God's communications cannot enter heaven. But the claim being made is that Pharaoh accepted God's communication at the end of his life.

3 minutes ago, Cool said:

And Musa said: Our Lord! surely Thou hast given to Firon and his chiefs finery and riches in this world's life, to this end, our Lord, that they lead (people) astray from Thy way: Our Lord! destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not until they see the painful punishment.

I didn't know about this verse, but this just proves my point!!

Moses (عليه السلام) says 'destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not until they see the painful punishment'.

At the end of his life, Pharaohs army and power is destroyed, hence Moses' prayer 'destroy their riches'.

Also, Pharaoh's heart is hardened throughout his life in power and authority, hence Moses' prayer 'harden their hearts'.

Then, Pharaoh's heart finally accepts the truth of God's existence when he sees his armies destroyed, hence Moses' prayer 'that they believe not until they see the painful punishment'.

Here 'the painful punishment' could refer to the soldiers, chariots and wealth of Pharaoh being engulfed by the sea. When he saw this, he realized that the message of Moses (عليه السلام) was true and made the statement:

'I believe that there is no God except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who submit themselves to God’" (10:90)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Kaya said:

When he saw this, he realized that the message of Moses (عليه السلام) was true and made the statement:

'I believe that there is no God except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who submit themselves to God’" (10:90)

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 18:
وَلَيْسَتِ التَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَاتِ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّي تُبْتُ الْآنَ وَلَا الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُولَٰئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا

And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.
(English - Shakir)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...