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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ruqaya101

Rhythm 0- Marina Abramovic

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Sellam, 

In 1974, Marina Abramovic set up a table and a sign with the instructions of: 

"There are 72 objects on the table that one can use on me as desired.
Performance.
I am the object.
During this period I take full responsibility.

Duration: 6 hours (8 pm – 2 am)"

Objects included a rose, feather, perfume, honey, bread, grapes, wine, scissors, a scalpel, nails, a metal bar, and a gun loaded with one bullet.

During the first couple of hours, the visitors were gentle, they gave her some water, gave her a kiss, hugged her, but then later on, they became a bit more daring. An Art critic that was present at the time of it, and was viewing it, described the scenes that followed:

"It began tamely. Someone turned her around. Someone thrust her arms into the air. Someone touched her somewhat intimately. The Neapolitan night began to heat up. In the third hour all her clothes were cut from her with razor blades. In the fourth hour the same blades began to explore her skin. Her throat was slashed so someone could suck her blood. Various minor sexual assaults were carried out on her body. She was so committed to the piece that she would not have resisted rape or murder. Faced with her abdication of will, with its implied collapse of human psychology, a protective group began to define itself in the audience. When a loaded gun was thrust to Marina's head and her own finger was being worked around the trigger, a fight broke out between the audience factions" Along with other atrocious acts such as "They carried her around the room half-naked, then put her on a wooden table and stabbed a knife into the table between her legs."

See, Marina was a performance artist, she believes in "pushing her body to the limit". What she learnt from this performance was that "if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you ... I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation."

Whats interesting about this performance to me, is that when there are no consequences, peoples inner desires, deep inside, begin to surface. It conveys the idea of what truly humanity is. See, these were normal people, with jobs and families, some of them religious. To me, its crazy because when she started approaching them, they had scattered off and away, they couldn't bring themselves to see the "object" become... well, human. 

What is your thoughts on this?

Also, Marina has many other experiments and performances, some quite disturbing, but this experiment is really interesting.

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Well, I guess her experiment really did prove that humans are indeed evil. Maybe we all have that evilness within ourselves that we don't choose to manifest, and that experiment gave them the chance and desire to do whatever they want to her. But its crazy how someone was almost going to kill her. 

I also heard that she did some cooking with pigs blood or something to contact the spirits I don't know haven't read the story properly.

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This shows what happens to life if there had been no sacred divine rules set by Allah (عزّ وجلّ). It also shows ethical backwardness of both the country and the people that how they allowed such a performance to occur yet they call Muslims as Radical. Qur'an says that human life is holy. However, we must not forget that she did not choose people from audience randomly. When people stand to participate from audience mostly staff members are chosen to avoid any loss. Such as I am part of theatrical staff and I am told to sit among audience and to stand when asked for volunteers and I be chosen to volunteer as I know what to do. Nevertheless, a good lesson.

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6 hours ago, Jibrael-e-Muhammadi said:

This shows what happens to life if there had been no sacred divine rules set by Allah (عزّ وجلّ). It also shows ethical backwardness of both the country and the people that how they allowed such a performance to occur yet they call Muslims as Radical. Qur'an says that human life is holy. However, we must not forget that she did not choose people from audience randomly. When people stand to participate from audience mostly staff members are chosen to avoid any loss. Such as I am part of theatrical staff and I am told to sit among audience and to stand when asked for volunteers and I be chosen to volunteer as I know what to do. Nevertheless, a good lesson.

It wasn’t really an audience actually, she performed this in a museum where people were just visitors and passing by. That’s what’s crazy about it, is that most of them were considered normal people with jobs and families

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14 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

It wasn’t really an audience actually, she performed this in a museum where people were just visitors and passing by. That’s what’s crazy about it, is that most of them were considered normal people with jobs and families

We don't know whether they really were ordinary people or theatrical staff who were asked to play as told by the directors of the show. 

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2 minutes ago, Jibrael-e-Muhammadi said:

We don't know whether they really were ordinary people or theatrical staff who were asked to play as told by the directors of the show. 

No, we do know actually. Its a performance. And there was an art critic. All her performances have a random audience, if you research. The people were just museum visitors, there were mothers, fathers, families, etc.

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2 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

No, we do know actually. Its a performance. And there was an art critic. All her performances have a random audience, if you research. The people were just museum visitors, there were mothers, fathers, families, etc.

I have seen performances by Catholic Preachers who say they heal the ill with their powers. And, people come to them and get healed. These are tricksters. Their objective is either to make you wonder or to alarm you or make you laugh. If you give them such response, their objectives are achieved.

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2 minutes ago, Jibrael-e-Muhammadi said:

I have seen performances by Catholic Preachers who say they heal the ill with their powers. And, people come to them and get healed. These are tricksters. Their objective is either to make you wonder or to alarm you or make you laugh. If you give them such response, their objectives are achieved.

That is not the case. There is footage (I advise against watching it, as it isn't so appropriate), and it shows the audiences coming in, some leaving, some staying. It was a full museum, it can’t have been just artists, that would be against the performance itself. 

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4 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

That is not the case. There is footage (I advise against watching it, as it isn't so appropriate), and it shows the audiences coming in, some leaving, some staying. It was a full museum, it can’t have been just artists, that would be against the performance itself. 

You should expect more fake and less truth in existing world because it is sign of Judgement day that nearing the time of Imam-e-Zamana (عليه السلام), the society will be fake.

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As salaamun aleikum all,

I don’t know anything about this particular event of hers, but id advise against getting too involved in her "art". 

I "investigated" into her and her background and her art a year or 2 ago, just to see what she/her art was like and what, if any, ideals she was promoting. What I found was extremelly disturbing, everythinv from the political as well as hollywood connections she had all the way to her "art" displays and their content, to her performances/ hollywood parties, some known as "spirit cooking". These events involved the participants eating cake that was designed in the shape/form of a nude female, hinting at cannibalism, as well as using sperm, breatmilk, pigs blood and other forms of human bodily secretions in her "acts/performance". These parties were (are?) frequented by major hollywood actors and actresses as well as sports stars and politicians, pretty much anyone whos anyone, and her "art events" almost always involve a private "afterparty" Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what goes on in those.

It really gives an "interesting" (?) view of what these people (holllywood stars, politicians, etc.) are into spending their time doing. I guess this is what happens when youre super rich and powerfull  and have everything you could ever want and can do anything youd ever want to do. Some people turn towards depravity to satisfy their boredom. Totall shaytani stuff here. 

The videos are all over youtube, but again, I don’t advise watching them as I found them to be quite disturbing, and this is saying alot for me. 

Procede with caution.

W/s

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6 hours ago, Shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum all,

I don’t know anything about this particular event of hers, but id advise against getting too involved in her "art". 

I "investigated" into her and her background and her art a year or 2 ago, just to see what she/her art was like and what, if any, ideals she was promoting. What I found was extremelly disturbing, everythinv from the political as well as hollywood connections she had all the way to her "art" displays and their content, to her performances/ hollywood parties, some known as "spirit cooking". These events involved the participants eating cake that was designed in the shape/form of a nude female, hinting at cannibalism, as well as using sperm, breatmilk, pigs blood and other forms of human bodily secretions in her "acts/performance". These parties were (are?) frequented by major hollywood actors and actresses as well as sports stars and politicians, pretty much anyone whos anyone, and her "art events" almost always involve a private "afterparty" Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what goes on in those.

It really gives an "interesting" (?) view of what these people (holllywood stars, politicians, etc.) are into spending their time doing. I guess this is what happens when youre super rich and powerfull  and have everything you could ever want and can do anything youd ever want to do. Some people turn towards depravity to satisfy their boredom. Totall shaytani stuff here. 

The videos are all over youtube, but again, I don’t advise watching them as I found them to be quite disturbing, and this is saying alot for me. 

Procede with caution.

W/s

I agree, which is why I mentioned them being disturbing.

 

On 9/21/2019 at 4:46 PM, Ruqaya101 said:

Also, Marina has many other experiments and performances, some quite disturbing

I've also researched a lot about her, but didn't need to mention any, Rhythm 0 did interest me, as disturbing as that was as well, it provides a good lesson.

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5 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

I agree, which is why I mentioned them being disturbing.

 

I've also researched a lot about her, but didn't need to mention any, Rhythm 0 did interest me, as disturbing as that was as well, it provides a good lesson.

My apologies, sister. I probably shouldnt have mentioned what I mentioned. 

Humans are strange creatures. Im curious as to what sort of an art exhibition the particular place this happened at was. In certain circumstances and environments, the reaction/behavior may be more acceptable than at others, depending on the type of people frequenting the event. The people at that particular event may or may not be a good representation of humans in general, however it does seem to have produced a wide array of reactions. 

Like the hadith says. We can be higher than angels or lower than animals. If the grandson of the Prophet and his family can be treated the way they were treated, then anything less is possible:(

W/s

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1 hour ago, Shia farm girl said:

My apologies, sister. I probably shouldnt have mentioned what I mentioned. 

Humans are strange creatures. Im curious as to what sort of an art exhibition the particular place this happened at was. In certain circumstances and environments, the reaction/behavior may be more acceptable than at others, depending on the type of people frequenting the event. The people at that particular event may or may not be a good representation of humans in general, however it does seem to have produced a wide array of reactions. 

Like the hadith says. We can be higher than angels or lower than animals. If the grandson of the Prophet and his family can be treated the way they were treated, then anything less is possible:(

W/s

It was at a museum somewhere in germany.

And I agree with you! Humans are very strange.

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6 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

Strangely enough, I'm very curious as to what @notme and @hasanhh would think about this..

I think the performance was depraved, and she knew what to expect. She set it up herself by providing razor blades and gun. Even seemingly normal people can be psychopaths who just haven't committed crimes out of fear of consequences.

I'm not interested in this pornographic "art".

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2 minutes ago, notme said:

she knew what to expect

She definitely knew what to expect, I think that is very obvious, her art is disturbing and somewhat disgusting.

3 minutes ago, notme said:

seemingly normal people can be psychopaths

Thats the interesting part, you think as Muslims, we are somewhat separated from that psychopathic actions/thoughts? Does being Muslim seperate us from that?

 

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4 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

Does being Muslim seperate us from that?

No.

Being a compassionate person does. Lacking the ability to see humans as "other" does. Praying, fasting, and reading Qur'an do not.

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Just now, notme said:

No.

Being a compassionate person does. Lacking the ability to see humans as "other" does. Praying, fasting, and reading Qur'an do not.

But through Qur'an, fasting and praying, we develop into a compassionate person, the Qur'an teaches us kindness, fasting teaches us patience and gifts us understanding and empathy for those who starve, etc, etc.

They are interconnected, I know that.

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17 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

They are interconnected, I know that.

Only if a person already wants that. It is perfectly possible for a person to be a "good Muslim", perform all wajibat and more, be an upstanding member of their community, and be a sociopath.

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On 9/21/2019 at 4:46 AM, Ruqaya101 said:

Whats interesting about this performance to me, is that when there are no consequences, peoples inner desires, deep inside, begin to surface. It conveys the idea of what truly humanity is. See, these were normal people, with jobs and families, some of them religious. To me, its crazy because when she started approaching them, they had scattered off and away, they couldn't bring themselves to see the "object" become... well, human. 

WARNING: This is also psychopathic so the Mods can asterisk (*) out anything too much for ShiaChat.

This OP reminds me of another reported 'artist' that as reported, wanted "to make a statement". He made a film of his slicing off slivers of his own penis. This was in the 80s as l remember. About fifteen years later, l read where he had it surgically restored (l guess the same day.). Of course, what the statement was supposed to be l never read.

Then:

On 9/25/2019 at 1:54 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Maybe we all have that evilness

We all have this choice. My father use to say, "You will never cease to be amazed at how stupid people can be." 

I have changed this, decades ago, from my own experiences: "You will never cease to be astounded at how sick-in-the-head people can get."

On 9/26/2019 at 3:39 AM, Jibrael-e-Muhammadi said:

I have seen performances by Catholic Preachers who say they heal the ill with their powers.

I saw this week where the Catholic Church is promoting exorcism again. Something they do every couple of decades --like doing incantations to declare that it is their St. Peter actually under the altar at the Vatican.[Although a camera probe found only the bones of a bird in there.] The report l saw claimed there were 2,000 requests for exorcism, and that 'selected' priests were taking a year long course on how to do it. An interviewed instructor said there are 4 kinds of things involved and each one is handled differently.

:(

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2 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

This OP reminds me of another reported 'artist' that as reported, wanted "to make a statement". He made a film of his slicing off slivers of his own penis. This was in the 80s as l remember. About fifteen years later, l read where he had it surgically restored (l guess the same day.). Of course, what the statement was supposed to be l never read.

 

Thats crazy! Whoaa!! Thats messed up!

2 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

"You will never cease to be astounded at how sick-in-the-head people can get."

I agree 200%! There are some EVIL people out there!

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1 minute ago, hasanhh said:

And they look 'normal' and 'average'.

Yeah, thats what scary. Not just that, they also develop feelings, Hitler himself fell in love with a Jew. 

Thats what so compelling and I question it, do we normal, average human beings (without faith and laws/consequences) have an innate desire to do immoral/unethical (what is deemed evil) actions? But yet, we would still have some degree of emotions...?

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7 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

an innate desire to do immoral/unethical (what is deemed evil) actions?

 

This is what Christians say is the result of Original Sin. Because Adam and Eve, in the Christian version, sinned, we are all cursed with an evil nature.

I do not believe humans are inherently evil. I believe we are presented with evil temptations in life and most  people give in to them, to varying degrees.

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18 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Absolutely disgusting woman. This is way beyond insanity by calling it as form of art and do such a disgusting thing. 

Shes only gotten way worse over the years. Id be scared of her to be honest. Like, who the heck sits around and thinks of things like the different situations for movies like the "Saw" series?? Eeee gads, those people with those kinda minds are just cruising around in society and being given the titles of "writers" and "artsts" when personally (and here comes an opinion) I think they should be seriously evaluated and maybe committed. (Ok, maybe thats going to far, but its not healthy to think of things like that,) and as Islam is set up in such a way as to protect society from harm, those kinds of shows, movies, art exhibitions etc. need to kerp in mind the effect that kind of stuff can have and encourage in people who just happen to be the "mentally weakest link in the chain:, in other words, people who already have a higher tendency to actually act out in a deviant manner. Making these displays socially acceptable I think can lead some very horrendous,unfortunate and sick events to happen.

Just my opinion.

W/s

 

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10 hours ago, notme said:

 

I do not believe humans are inherently evil. I believe we are presented with evil temptations in life and most  people give in to them, to varying degrees.

I agree with this statement because it doesnt make sense for Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to create us inherently bad/evil. That would be an unjust act for God. He creates us with a choice to evolve or devolve. Each action either gets us closer or further from Him.

This very subject is one ive tossed around numerous times when its come to considering people like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy and others. I don’t understamd what the heck is wrong wiith someone who doesnt feel "bad" or is "ok" with committing such horrendous acts on people.. I just don’t get whats really wrong. Not everyone with a bad childhood, (and some people have had some pretty bad experiences), turns out like these guys, so what gives???

W/s

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1 hour ago, Shia farm girl said:

I agree with this statement because it doesnt make sense for Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to create us inherently bad/evil. That would be an unjust act for God. He creates us with a choice to evolve or devolve. Each action either gets us closer or further from Him.

This very subject is one ive tossed around numerous times when its come to considering people like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy and others. I don’t understamd what the heck is wrong wiith someone who doesnt feel "bad" or is "ok" with committing such horrendous acts on people.. I just don’t get whats really wrong. Not everyone with a bad childhood, (and some people have had some pretty bad experiences), turns out like these guys, so what gives???

W/s

That’s my point... I think deep inside us, we want to do bad things maybe if out of curiosity. Isn’t that why most people fall for sin? Because the urge to do something wrong is stronger. 

I’m not sure. But the audience that did all that to her were normal people with families, women, daughters, fathers, sons, etc.

when she confronted them at the end they ran away. 

Did ted bundy run away?? Did hitler run away?? Did saddam run away?? All these people did horrible things, there were no consequences for them besides eternal hell. 

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Im not sure how to formulate an answer on that. Its no secret that humans are attracted to "the glitter of the world", and ive heard many speakers say its not technically bad to to obtain some of that glitter, as long as Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is in the equation.

The problem comes when depravity enters the picture. I personally have no desire or drive to do something intentional to hurt anything. I even catch small insects and place them outside the house, and ive felt guilty when on the rare occasion ive had to use mouse poison:( So based on my own personal empirical self-evidence, id have to disagree with this point., however, I completely understand that humans are complex beings when mental, spiritual,and  physical forces as well as life experiences are all taken into consideration.

The people weve discussed, ted bundy, hitler, sadam, theyre PROBABLY the result of consistently darkening their souls with sin to the point where they have no remorse. Their souls arent really that of a human anymore, which is why hell is more befitting to them.

The other issue is, what ted bundy and john wayne gacy did, they did themselves...it was a very personal and intimate action for them to do what they did to other people whereas sadam and hitler ordering a group of soldiers to shoot, bomb, attack another group of people is a detached type of action. They are "distant" from the action in many ways. They are not "intimately" and personally involved in the deaths. They themselves are not doing the killing.

Theres definetly a difference in the people in these 2 types of crime perpetration. I can’t say or prove whether someone that kidnaps, rapes then cuts up and eats young boys suffers from the same mental effect that a power hungry tyrant does. I think these are 2 diiferent sicknesses, both affecting the mental as well as spiritual aspects of the perpetrators. Bundy, for example, I think is due to a more organic, mental/hardwiring disorder rather than what sadam and hitler had, but im no psychologist, even though the field is extremelly interesting to me.

Still, the example of the people who participated in her experiment and their reaction after the it was over is interesting. Its as if they didnt recognize her as human or alive til the show was over. Reminds me of how in Sahifa al sajadiya Imam ZainalAbideen wrote his treatise on rights, and how even inanimate objects have the right to be treated with respect, as all things are Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Alhamdulilah we have this. It KINDA seems like a common sense thing, but obviously, if the art show participants really were legit random people, I guess it could show people will push the bounds of what society in general see as acceptable, which as time has proven, is getting to be looser and looser and more tolerant of what was previously unacceptable to the average person. Once again though, im curious as to the type of people that were at this particular exhibit.

My apologies for rambling so much. Its late and ive had a headache all day:cry:

And id like to correct my previous post where I refered to it as an "art show" where it actually occured at a museum, as a museum could attract a different type of crowd than an art gallery would, and that largely depending on the type of art being displayed at the gallery. 

W/s

Edited by shia farm girl

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43 minutes ago, Shia farm girl said:

The problem comes when depravity enters the picture. I personally have no desire or drive to do something intentional to hurt anything. I even catch small insects and place them outside the house, and ive felt guilty when on the rare occasion ive had to use mouse poison:( So based on my own personal empirical self-evidence, id have to disagree with this point., however, I completely understand that humans are complex beings when mental, spiritual,and  physical forces as well as life experiences are all taken into consideration.

 

That is a characteristic I think everyone possesses. Even when we observe whats happening around the world, whether its happening to Christians, or Hindus or whoever, it hurts us to see it happening, they're humans no matter what. You have no desire to intentionally hurt someone, I don't think anyone does unless their souls are dark and they care for no consequences, but I'm wondering whether humans in general, Deep inside us, would experiment with what is wrong.

 

47 minutes ago, Shia farm girl said:

Still, the example of the people who participated in her experiment and their reaction after the it was over is interesting. Its as if they didnt recognize her as human or alive til the show was over. Reminds me of how in Sahifa al sajadiya Imam ZainalAbideen wrote his treatise on rights, and how even inanimate objects have the right to be treated with respect, as all things are Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Alhamdulilah we have this. It KINDA seems like a common sense thing, but obviously, if the art show participants really were legit random people, I guess it could show people will push the bounds of what society in general see as acceptable, which as time has proven, is getting to be looser and looser and more tolerant of what was previously unacceptable to the average person. Once again though, im curious as to the type of people that were at this particular exhibit.

 

Yeah exactly... Its interesting.

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4 hours ago, Shia farm girl said:

Like, who the heck sits around and thinks of things like the different situations for movies like the "Saw" series?? Eeee gads, those people with those kinda minds are just cruising around in society and being given the titles of "writers" and "artsts" when

These writers use a formula.

Example from my high school class: There are only 7 basic plots for Westerns, so each 'new' one is altered by scenery, dialogue, actors, and so on.

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