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In the Name of God بسم الله
Sayyed_Splinter

There is any hawza in Qom (or Iran in general) where 'wilayatul faqih' isn't preached?

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Is there any hawza in Qom (or Iran in general) where 'wilayatul faqih' isnt preached? Where you will not be disturbed with WF propaganda?

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30 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Because it is neither from the usool al deen nor furoo' al deen and yet it seems to be the main topic of focus among some circles in Qom. Also because some shi'a, as a result of this, seem to have confused authentic shi'ism with iranian politics and culture whereas in reality there is very little common ground between the two.

Neither is the concept of taqlid part of usool al deen or furu al deen.

I also find it funny how some Shias think that WF with Ayatollah Khamenei is supposedly for the sake of Iranian power, while Khamenei himself is not an Iranian but an Arab (as he is seyyed) and during his leadership Iran has gotten many sanctions by the west and is having a hard time financially. But a good Muslim leader is not defined by how rich he can make his people as money can be made by haram ways, rather it is defined by making sure all deeds are halal and that you fight evil which will surely result in making many enemies. Thus the sanctions.

So some Shias think that way, but it is not surprising when some other Shias even praise the likes of saddam(la) or even wish to seek alliance with oppressors like Israel, and all they judge situations with is how well they would do financially. Just like how the people of koofa was counting the money from shams as they betrayed that which was right because it would cost them effort.

 

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46 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

What???

he is a Sayed & he is from descendants  of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) that was result of marriage between Imam Hussain(عليه السلام) & Sassanian princess the Lady Shahrbanoo (رضي الله عنه)

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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6 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

why do people not like wilayatul faqih?

The iranian concept WF is an innovation, and it's far of the teachings of Ahl ul-bayt (عليه السلام). 

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

he is a Sayed & he is from descendants  of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) that was result of marriage between Imam Hussain(عليه السلام) & Sassanian princess the Lady Shahrbanoo (رضي الله عنه)

Yes, but he's not Arab like the brother has claimed. If I'm not mistaken, Imam Khamenei is half Azeri-Turk and half Persian. Being Sayed does not mean you're automatically Arab.

Edited by Jaabir

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44 minutes ago, Jaabir said:

Yes, but he's not Arab like the brother has claimed. If I'm not mistaken, Imam Khamenei is half Azeri-Turk and half Persian. Being Sayed does not mean you're automatically Arab.

I don’t agree with that, a seyyed has Arab decent through his father and possibly mother as well, all the way to the family of Rasulullah(S), so they are arabs just like he was but by decent. Rasulullah(S) lived only approximately 14 generations ago, thats not so much genetically speaking.

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Neither is the concept of taqlid part of usool al deen or furu al deen.

I am fine with that, I never claimed that it was. I don't see taqlid as being a focal study point for someone who is studying and researching Islamic theology. 

 

Quote

Rasulullah(S) lived only approximately 14 generations ago, thats not so much genetically speaking.

14 centuries is much more than 14 generations. You can triple that number if not quadruple it. 

 

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14 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see taqlid as being a focal study point for someone who is studying and researching Islamic theology. 

I think you should at least if you are a jaafari, taqlid is an extension of imamah, one given to us by Imam Al Hadi(عليه السلام) and Imam Al Askari(عليه السلام) as they thought us the concept of taqlid and prepared the ummah for the occultation of the 12th Imam(ajf). And to my understanding WF is an extension of taqlid.

 

14 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

14 centuries is much more than 14 generations. You can triple that number if not quadruple it. 

Be it 14 or 28 (50 years per generation) I still consider it little time relatively speaking.

Perhaps its a matter of personal definitions but I do consider all seyyeds to be arabs and I know others who also consider ayatollah Khamenei an Arab, although they are usually the ones among the Iranians who dislike him and Islam itself.

But I have no problems with having an Arab as a leader, any Muslim who would find a problem with that will have a hard time accepting al Qaim(ajf) as a leader.

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On 9/16/2019 at 2:19 AM, Sayyed_Splinter said:

Is there any hawza in Qom (or Iran in general) where 'wilayatul faqih' isnt preached? Where you will not be disturbed with WF propaganda?

I didn't watch many videos of Hassan allayari. Could you tell a little more about what he wants to implant in a Muslim country instead of WF? 

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1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I didn't watch many videos of Hassan allayari. Could you tell a little more about what he wants to implant in a Muslim country instead of WF? 

Salam Allahyari says that Imam Khamenei is Dajjal & his followers are followers of Dajjal & he just spreads chaos & hatred against Sunnis & Shias , he like as Towhidi can't pass Hawza classed but uses scholar costumes to insult other Marjas 

 

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On 9/16/2019 at 3:38 AM, Soldiers and Saffron said:

The concept of WF is accepted by all Shias, it is only the application of it that is disagreed upon.

No.

On 9/16/2019 at 7:22 AM, Soldiers and Saffron said:

while Khamenei himself is not an Iranian but an Arab (as he is seyyed)

No offense, but he doesn’t speak Arabic properly. (Which is a common problem for Persians in general...)

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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1 minute ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

No.

This is what I was told verbally at the office/house of ayatollah Shirazi in Qom before meeting him.

To my understanding WF is an extension of the concept of taqlid which stems from imamah.

 

Could you explain what the difference is between a marjae taqlid and a marja in the position of WF out of practical point of view?

It might be worth to mention that I do not personally follow WF, mainly because I have not studied the concept enough to make an intellectual decision regarding it, but I still fully support the idea of consolidating the forces of the Shias under a common leadership.

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16 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

No offense, but he doesn’t speak Arabic properly. (Which is a common problem for Persians in general...)

To my understanding most arabs don’t speak Arabic properly either.

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35 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

No offense, but he doesn’t speak Arabic properly. (Which is a common problem for Persians in general...)

all wahabists say same thing about Shias that Shias don't talk Arabic well as them & Shias don't memorize Qur'an like as them & other nonsense.

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56 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

This is what I was told verbally at the office/house of ayatollah Shirazi in Qom before meeting him.

To my understanding WF is an extension of the concept of taqlid which stems from imamah.

 

Could you explain what the difference is between a marjae taqlid and a marja in the position of WF out of practical point of view?

It might be worth to mention that I do not personally follow WF, mainly because I have not studied the concept enough to make an intellectual decision regarding it, but I still fully support the idea of consolidating the forces of the Shias under a common leadership.

From what I understood shirazis support concept of WF but not like how is it practiced in Iran. 

However some Marjas like ayatollah Sistani don't support WF but support a form of government more secular (not a government agaisnt religion but a government neutral toward religious issues). 

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On 9/16/2019 at 4:49 AM, Sayyed_Splinter said:

Is there any hawza in Qom (or Iran in general) where 'wilayatul faqih' isnt preached? Where you will not be disturbed with WF propaganda?

Lets drop WF, what alternative political theory do you have to offer? Does Shia Islam even have another form of governance or political theory?

Also, go to Najaf, you'll find what you want there.

Edited by khamosh21

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On 9/16/2019 at 9:12 AM, Mahdavist said:

Because it is neither from the usool al deen nor furoo' al deen and yet it seems to be the main topic of focus among some circles in Qom. Also because some shi'a, as a result of this, seem to have confused authentic shi'ism with iranian politics and culture whereas in reality there is very little common ground between the two.

I am not saying there is something wrong with the concept, but the issue seems to be what some people have derived from this concept. 

For foreigners, I don't know. For persian and Arabic speakers, yes there certainly are such hawzas. I suggest to directly contact the brothers who have studied in Iran so they can point you in the right direction. 

Wallahu a'lam 

So trying to find the best person possible to help run a country and government needs to be sanctioned by Islam them? Isn't this known as common sense?

With no Imam or hujjat from God, what's the alternative brother, accept any idiot to power? 

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However some Marjas like ayatollah Sistani don't support WF but support a form of government more secular (not a government agaisnt religion but a government neutral toward religious issues). 

Not surw where you are getting your info from. Sayed Sistani has made no such statement as far as I am aware.

Quote

 

So trying to find the best person possible to help run a country and government needs to be sanctioned by Islam them? Isn't this known as common sense?

With no Imam or hujjat from God, what's the alternative brother, accept any idiot to power? 

 

 

I don't say it needs to be sanctioned by Islam nor have I objected to it as a political system. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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4 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Not surw where you are getting your info from. Sayed Sistani has made no such statement as far as I am aware.

 

I don't say it needs to be sanctioned by Islam nor have I objected to it as a political system. 

Wallahu a'lam 

In my other threads Ive been questioning God, the Prophets, and the Imams... but I think even an athiest could see that Rahbar is doing a good job, promoting Shia interests, and WF makes a lot of sense. There is no other successful model out there... 

Anytime ive talked to anyone anti-WF, they have no alternative to offer... 

Edited by khamosh21

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27 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Not surw where you are getting your info from. Sayed Sistani has made no such statement as far as I am aware.

 

I don't say it needs to be sanctioned by Islam nor have I objected to it as a political system. 

Wallahu a'lam 

So could explain to me what is the position of Ayatollah Sistani toward relations between religion and the state ?

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24 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

In my other threads Ive been questioning God, the Prophets, and the Imams... but I think even an athiest could see that Rahbar is doing a good job, promoting Shia interests, and WF makes a lot of sense. There is no other successful model out there... 

Anytime ive talked to anyone anti-WF, they have no alternative to offer... 

In general they say that they want a different application of WF or they want a secular state.

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26 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

In my other threads Ive been questioning God, the Prophets, and the Imams... but I think even an athiest could see that Rahbar is doing a good job, promoting Shia interests, and WF makes a lot of sense. There is no other successful model out there... 

Anytime ive talked to anyone anti-WF, they have no alternative to offer... 

I don't have any issues with these points. What I don't agree with is how this is being drilled into the hawzas and pushed from the pulpits as some kind of core religious concept.

The result is that fresh faced students emerge from Iran every year to propagate what they have learnt. The Arabic level of many of these 'students of Islam' is embarrassingly poor to the level that you can’t even pray behind many of them. When they speak from the pulpit they struggle to give proper quranic or narrated references and are usually confined to anecdotes from Iran and from the lives of their favorite scholars as well as the occasional persian fairytale.

Wallahu a'lam 

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29 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

So could explain to me what is the position of Ayatollah Sistani toward relations between religion and the state ?

I cannot because I have not seen any publication or speech from him discussing this.

Wallahu a'lam 

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18 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Well the Iraqi followers of Ayatollah Sistani said to me that he favors a secular state which respect religion.

This whole time I thought God wanted a Khalifa and Hujjat on Earth, turn out He just wants a pluralistic secular state... -_-

I think Iraqi themselves favor a secular state, which they got after saddam, their current constitution states that it is secular... can't say it is yielding them ideal results. 

If the followers of Ayt Sistani believe he is the most knowledgeable and best person among us, then they are only limiting this genius's role, any smart person would want him involved even in a secular govt, if not heading the country.

Assuming that a secular state is successful (please show me an example of a successful Islamic secular state), how on Earth is anyone going to prove this is an Islamic concept sanctioned by Allah, the Prophets, Imams, Qur'an, hadith? The same criticism against WF, that it's not Islamic right...

 

Edited by khamosh21

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7 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

This whole time I thought God wanted a Khalifa and Hujjat on Earth, turn out He just wants a pluralistic secular state... -_-

I think Iraqi themselves favor a secular state, which they got after saddam, their current constitution states that it is secular... can't say it is yielding them ideal results. 

If the followers of Ayt Sistani believe he is the most knowledgeable and best person among us, then they are only limiting this genius's role, any smart person would want him involved even in a secular govt, if not heading the country.

Assuming that a secular state is successful (please show me an example of a successful Islamic secular state), how on Earth is anyone going to prove this is an Islamic concept sanctioned by Allah, the Prophets, Imams, Qur'an, hadith? The same criticism against WF, that it's not Islamic right...

 

Brother I think actually mostly like you. But we must not forget that Irak is diverse religiously and I think a system like we have in Iran is maybe not the best for a country like Irak. Also I don’t really know what Ayatollah Sistani said exactly. I just repeat what some of his followers said to me.

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33 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't have any issues with these points. What I don't agree with is how this is being drilled into the hawzas and pushed from the pulpits as some kind of core religious concept.

The result is that fresh faced students emerge from Iran every year to propagate what they have learnt. The Arabic level of many of these 'students of Islam' is embarrassingly poor to the level that you can’t even pray behind many of them. When they speak from the pulpit they struggle to give proper quranic or narrated references and are usually confined to anecdotes from Iran and from the lives of their favorite scholars as well as the occasional persian fairytale.

Wallahu a'lam 

I agree. This has nothing to do with WF concept and it's application by Rahbar.

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40 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Brother I think actually mostly like you. But we must not forget that Irak is diverse religiously and I think a system like we have in Iran is maybe not the best for a country like Irak. Also I don’t really know what Ayatollah Sistani said exactly. I just repeat what some of his followers said to me.

No one said Iraq can be like Iran, or that Pakistan can be like it. But that doesn't make the application of secularism correct either. Take Hezbullah, Lebanon is not like Iran, but they are following same Islamic principal to be successful. 

Hashas AlShabi, same principle.

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19 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

No one said Iraq can be like Iran, or that Pakistan can be like it. But that doesn't make the application of secularism correct either. Take Hezbullah, Lebanon is not like Iran, but they are following same Islamic principal to be successful. 

Hashas AlShabi, same principle.

I think there had been some confusions here. I never said that Ayatollah Sistani was against actions practiced by groups like hezbollah. But as far as I know Lebanon is not an Islamic Republic nowadays. So doing some politics to protect religion and Muslims why not. But he doesn't want to do an silamic republic ruled by clerics like in Iran this is what I understood. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 5:19 AM, Sayyed_Splinter said:

Is there any hawza in Qom (or Iran in general) where 'wilayatul faqih' isnt preached? Where you will not be disturbed with WF propaganda?

There is no hospital where you can make perform your own surgery brother 

:hahaha:

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