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In the Name of God بسم الله
Pingu

Are Sunnis considered unbelievers?

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The hadith which seems to allude to this is:

Allah will not accept the belief of anyone who does not accept the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع) and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies.

(Ref: Biharul  Anwar - Vol. 26, Pg. 229, H. No 10)

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This is something I had an issue, that Sunnis consider me not to be a Muslim for defending Shi'as and their beliefs and at the same time because I don't believe in certain Shi'a beliefs I am considered an unbeliever or at best unable to be a mu'min.

It bothered me at first, but I'm just getting on with it now. A lot of my beliefs go against what many believe, or at least a minority do believe it but might not say it aloud. I'm just going to have to live this life as a stranger and all that.

Edited by aaaz1618

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3 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

No, they are Muslims. This is a ijmaa’ in the Shi’a Ummah. Even Yasser Al-Habib (who is a bit harsher/less open to Sunnis) said that they are Muslims.

Salaam brother are you saying that the hadith is fabricated about Sunnis not accepting the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع)? 

Edited by mn05

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4 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

This is something I had an issue, that Sunnis consider me not to be a Muslim for defending Shi'as and their beliefs and at the same time because I don't believe in certain Shi'a beliefs I am considered an unbeliever or at best unable to be a mu'min.

It bothered me at first, but I'm just getting on with it now. A lot of my beliefs go against what many believe, or at least a minority do believe it but might not say it aloud. I'm just going to have to live this life as a stranger and all that.

Salaam brother what certain Shia believes you don't believe in? 

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Everyone has their own journey. Hope and pray for your self and your loved ones to go heaven. Stop worrying so much about other people if they are going heaven or hell. Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows who is going where in the hereafter. Stop trying to guess who goes where. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 12:16 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam they consider as Muslims in our world but here after it depends on Allah & for acceptance of Muslim deeds at first they must be accepted Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in this world.

Walakumsalaam brother. This also applies to us as well. It depends on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept our deeds or not. I can't say I'm going to heaven because I pray, fast and give money to the poor. It depends on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for accepting my good deeds. Inshallah Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept our good deeds. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 12:56 AM, mn05 said:

Salaam brother what certain Shia believes you don't believe in? 

I'm not Shi'a to start with so while I could say what I don't believe in, those things are only of what I know and am sure I don't believe in. There are many aspects of the schools of thought that I find I can relate to or believe, but those things would not be enough in the eyes of most Shi'a Muslims to say I am part of their party. Similarly I disagree with a lot of Sunni aspects, enough in the eyes of most Sunni Muslims to say I am not part of their party.

If I was a Muslim living in the time of Ali I would have backed Ali, if I was Muslim living in the time of Hussain I would have supported Hussain. If faced with the same situation today I would do the same. I believe followers of the Ahlul Bayt are given a hard time and not respected as Muslims and as humans by the majority of Sunnis. Does that make me Shi'a or Sunni? Maybe it just makes me human.

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On 9/16/2019 at 12:49 AM, Pingu said:

The hadith which seems to allude to this is:

Allah will not accept the belief of anyone who does not accept the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع) and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies.

(Ref: Biharul  Anwar - Vol. 26, Pg. 229, H. No 10)

Sunnis are not unbelievers according to our holy Imams as regards above hadith even those Shias will go to hell who have not accepted wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) by heart and do sins for which they will live in hell for almost 300,000 years in hell. we should focus on our lives rather than on lives of others. 

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On 9/15/2019 at 9:49 PM, Pingu said:

The hadith which seems to allude to this is:

Allah will not accept the belief of anyone who does not accept the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع) and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies.

(Ref: Biharul  Anwar - Vol. 26, Pg. 229, H. No 10)

What about those who never knew him(عليه السلام) at all. Before his(عليه السلام) birth & after his(عليه السلام) demise? 

What about those Sunnis who embraced Islam for the sake of the teachings about Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) taken from someone who learned it like so. They never had intentions of causing strife/trials about the teachings of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Also, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not limited to Muslims only.

Back to the ahadith, '' if it's in the Qur'an take it & if not reject it"...

Now it being in it(the wilayah in the Qur'an & I don't know about the acceptance of belief) is another point of contention. The interpretation varies according to what's in the heart. 

Strangely enough those that accepted his(عليه السلام) wilayah are associated with his(عليه السلام) enemies &...

Whilst that Sunni Maolana taught about sab'r in times of difficulties & another Sunni brother taught about holding on with the molars tightly & never let go.

Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best

 

Edited by Mzwakhe
Qur'an

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2 hours ago, Jibrael-e-Muhammadi said:

Sunnis are not unbelievers according to our holy Imams as regards above hadith even those Shias will go to hell who have not accepted wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) by heart and do sins for which they will live in hell for almost 300,000 years in hell. we should focus on our lives rather than on lives of others. 

So basically this hadith is fabricated then.   

"Allah will not accept the belief of anyone who does not accept the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع) and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies."

(Ref: Biharul  Anwar - Vol. 26, Pg. 229, H. No 10)

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On 9/16/2019 at 3:49 AM, Pingu said:

The hadith which seems to allude to this is:

Allah will not accept the belief of anyone who does not accept the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع) and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies.

(Ref: Biharul  Anwar - Vol. 26, Pg. 229, H. No 10)

During Ghadeer Khum, all that were presence at that time accepted wilayat of Ali (عليه السلام), including Abu Bakr, Umar and others.  History showed that.  As far as Imamat, it is done.  No one opposed.

However, after the wafat of our Prophet (عليه السلام), Muslims at that time decided not to make Ali (عليه السلام) as their elected Leader (khalifah).  Ali (عليه السلام) did not give a damn to those who fought to be Khalifah.  When he was elected, it was by force.  He didn't ask for it.  Khalifah is just one of the means but Imamat is the mission.

Today there are many political parties in a country.  Same religion and belief but different opinions and approaches.  So election occur to select a leader to settle differences.  Same method used in Saqifah.

Those Arab Muslims in the time of Prophet are thinking duniawi/political approach.  In their mind Ali (عليه السلام) is not good enough to lead Arab tribes.  He has killed too many of them.

Those Arabs also didn't believe that the Prophet (عليه السلام) is competent enough in the matter of politics, statehood and strategies. Many instructions by the Rasul  (عليه السلام) were not followed.  They judged the Prophet (عليه السلام) as a Messenger and not as a political Leader.  For them Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the same as previous Prophets such as Ibrahim (عليه السلام), Musa (عليه السلام), and Isa (عليه السلام).  They were not political leaders.  After all, Qur'an is already being given to Muslims.  So use it or refer to Ali (عليه السلام) if advise needed.  And they did referred when needed .  Ali (عليه السلام) has never refused to guide until the moment of his death.

The followers of Ali (عليه السلام) are too groups, those who want Ali (عليه السلام) to be both Imam and Khalifah, and another group who only adhere to Imamat.  Whether Ali is elected Khalifah or not, is not the main concern.  Those who want Ali (عليه السلام) to be both Imam and Khalifah will attack outcome of Saqifah until today.

Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) just focused on imamat and ignored the khilafat.  Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was killed because Yazid (la) felt his khalifah is undermind and his future is doomed without Hussain (عليه السلام) supporting him.  Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) could not support Yazid (la) because Yazid (la) was publically against the teachings of Islam.  As an Imam, Hussain (عليه السلام) not just could not support but must go against the teachings of Yazid (la).  He gathered followers who were willing to oppose Yazid (la), not to make Khalifah for himself but to uphold the teachings of Islam.  Imam (عليه السلام) and his devoted Followers we massacred.  

To be fair to all so-called Muslims from the time of Prophet until now, all be tested on Nubuwwah and Imamat.  The more we believe in Imamat, the more we are tested (Sunnis and Shias alike).  There are those who believe in Imamat of Ali, but there exist differences in them in term of approach to apply the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).  Differences exist even though we have same Allah, Qur'an, Prophet and Imams.  We need to respect each other.

My conclusion, accepting wilayat of Ali or Imamat has deeper meaning and very much individual basis based on our understandings and capacity.  We need personal struggle to uphold the wilayat of Ali to the fullest.  Focus the imamat to the self and less on others.

In general Sunnis do accept Ali (عليه السلام) as foremost in Islamic knowledge but not as the highest level of elected leader.  

In addition, the hadith quoted above " ...and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies", applies to those who behave like Yazid (la) and not to general Muslims.  

Sunnis are Muslims even though they highly admire Abu Bakr and Umar.  In general, they do not degrade Ali (عليه السلام) and not behaving like Yazid (la).

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On 9/15/2019 at 10:20 PM, Mortadakerim said:

No, they are Muslims. This is a ijmaa’ in the Shi’a Ummah. Even Yasser Al-Habib (who is a bit harsher/less open to Sunnis) said that they are Muslims.

In the book, al-tanqīḥ fī sharḥ al-urwa al-wūthqa, volume 3, page 80.

al-Sayyid al-Ḵḫʾūī said: “The correct is to rule with the purity of the muḵḫālifin of the Shiʾa, and with their outward Islam, with no difference in that, between the āhlul ḵḫilāf and the other sects - even though, in reality, they are disbelievers - and they are whom we named with, the Muslim of the dunyā, and the kāfir of āḵḫirah.”

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al-Ṣadūq said in al-Iʾtiqādat, page 118.

“And our belief in he who opposed (or differed) with us in one matter in religion, is as if he opposed us in every matter.”

Yūsuf al-Baḥrani said in al-ḥadāʾiq al-nāḍhirah,” volume 5, page 176.

“And he who denied it - al-wilayah - is a disbeliever, because he denied the greatest of what the Prophet came with, and an āṣl of its uṣūl.”

al-Māmaqani said in “tanqiḥ al-maqāl,” volume 1, page 208.

“And what is to be understood from the narrations, is the rule of the polytheist and disbeliever in the āḵḫirah, on everyone that wasn't an IthnāʾAshari.”

al-Sayyid Abdullāh Shubbar said in ḥaqqul yaqīn, volume 2, page 188.

“As for the rest of the muḵḫālifin - of whom wasn’t a nāṣibi, or a muʾānid and a mutaʾasib - the majority of the Imāmiyyah, like al-Sayyid al-Murtaḍha, believe that they are disbelievers in the dunyā and āḵḫirah, and the widely known is that they are disbelievers, in hell for eternity.”

In Ḥaqq al-Yaqīn (lithographic print), by al-Allāmah al-Majlesi.

He said: “All of the false (deviant) sects, such as: polytheists, disbelievers, hypocrites, zaidīyyah, faṭaḥiya, wāqifia, kaysāniyah, and Sunnis, are in hell for eternity.”

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In Biḥār al-Anwār, volume 23, page 89.

عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ : مَنْ مَاتَ وَليْسَ لهُ إمَامٌ مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً، وَلاَ يُعْذَرُ النَّاسُ حَتَّى يَعْرِفُوا إمَامَهُمْ

“Whoever died without an Imam, [has] died a death of jāhilyyah, and people are not forgiven, except when they know their Imam.”

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In the same book, volume 69, page 132.

That al-Imām al-Ṣādiq told Ḥamrān bin Aʾyan: “Whoever opposed you in this matter is a zindeeq,” Ḥamrān said: Even if he was a ʿalawi and a fāṭimi (Sayyid)? He said: “Even if he was a muḥammadi, ʿalawi and a fāṭimi.”

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فِي رِوَايَةِ أبِي حَمْزَةَ، عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ output-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png التَّارِكُونَ وَلاَيَةَ عَلِيٍّ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png الْمُنْكِرُونَ لِفَضْلِهِ الْمُظَاهِرُونَ أعْدَاءَهُ خَارِجُونَ عَنِ الْإسْلاَمِ، مَنْ مَاتَ مِنْهُمْ عَلَى ذَلِكَ

In the ḥadīṯh of Aʾbi Ḥamza, from Aʾbi Jʾafar, from the Prophet that he said: “The ones that left (forsook) the wilayah of Ali, who deny his virtues and cooperate with his enemies have exited Islam, who died from them on that.”

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مِنْ كِتَابِ الْمَسَائِلِ مِنْ مَسَائِلِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ عِيسَى حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ وَمُوسَى بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ قَالَ : كَتَبْتُ إِلَى أبِي الْحَسَنِ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png أسْألُهُ عَنِ النَّاصِبِ هَلْ أحْتَاجُ فِي اِمْتِحَانِهِ إلى أكْثَرَ مِنْ تَقْدِيمِهِ الجِبْتَ وَالطَّاغُوتَ وَاِعْتِقَادِ إمَامَتِهِمَا ؟ فَرَجَعَ الْجَوَابُ : مَنْ كَانَ عَلى هَذَا فَهُوَ نَاصِبٌ

That Mūsa bin Muḥammad bin Ali said: I wrote to Aʾbi l-Ḥasan asking him about examining to see whether a person is a nāṣib or not, do I need to ask about other than him preceding the jibt and ṭāġhut, and believing in their imāmah?

He said: Whoever [believed] in that is a nāṣib.

The jibt and ṭāġhut in the aḥādīṯh of Ahlulbāyt are Aʾbū Bakr and Omar, and Sunnis certainly precede them [over Imam Ali], and believe in their imāmah.

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وَعَنْ أبِي عَلِيٍّ الْخُرَاسَانِيِّ، عَنْ مَوْلًى لِعَلِيِّ بْنِ الحُسَيْنِ عَليْهِمَا السَّلَامُ قَالَ: كُنْتُ مَعَ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الحُسَيْنِ عَليْهِمَا السَّلَامُ فِي بَعْضِ خَلوَاتِهِ، فَقُلتُ: إنَّ لِي عَليْك حَقًا، ألَا تُخْبِرْنِي عَنْ هَذَيْنِ الرَّجُليْن، أبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ ؟ فَقَالَ: كَافِرَانِ، كَافِرٌ مَنْ أحَبَّهُمَا

Narrated Abʾi Ali al-Ḵḫurāsani, from a mawla of Ali bin al-Ḥusayn output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png he said: I was with Ali bin al-Ḥusayn output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png in one of his states of being alone, so I told him: Can’t you tell me about these two men, Abʾi Bakr and Omar? He said: Kuffār, whoever loved them is a kāfir.

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-dUmpMp3vQM.thumb.jpg.c4489083e96e3020cc7c33841812fa2a.jpg

عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ: إنَّ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ نَصَبَ عَلِيًّا output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png عَلمَاً بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ خَلقِهِ، فَمَنْ عَرَفَهُ كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا، وَمَنْ أنْكَرَهُ كَانَ كَافِرًا، وَمَنْ جَهِلَهُ كَانَ ضَالًّا، وَمَنْ نَصَبَ مَعَهُ شَيْئًا كَانَ مُشْرِكًا، وَمَنْ جَاءَ بِوَلَايَتِهِ دَخَلَ الْجَنَّةَ

Aʾbi Jʾafar output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png said: “God, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious has appointed Ali output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png as a light house, between His self and His creatures. Whoever would recognize him, he will be a believer, and whoever would not recognize him will be an unbeliever. Those who would be ignorant of him would be lost (astray). Those who would ascribe [something] with him, would be polytheists, and those who would come with his wilayah would be admitted in paradise.”

(al-Kāfi, volume 1, page 277, tradition 1173).

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وَعَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ: أكْبَرُ الكَبَائِرِ، صَاحِبُ القَوْلِ الَّذِي يَقُولُ: أنَا أبْرَأُ مِمَّنْ يَبْرَأُ مِنْ أبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ

That Aʾbi J’afar output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png said: The greatest of the kabāʾir, is the person that says, “I disassociate myself from the person that disassociates himself from Aʾbi Bakr and Omar.”

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الوجه الأول: أنه ثبت في الروايات والأدعية والزيارات جواز لعن المخالفين، ووجوب البراءة منهم، وإكثار السبّ عليهم، واتّهامهم، والوقيعة فيهم ـ أي غيبتهم لأنّهم من أهل البدع والريب بل لا شبهة في كفرهم، لأنّ إنكار الولاية والأئمّة حتى الواحد منهم، والاعتقاد بخلافة غيرهم، وبالعقائد الخرافية كالجبر ونحوه يوجب الكفر والزندقة، وتدلّ عليه الأخبار المتواترة الظاهرة في كفر منكر الولاية، وكفر المعتقد بالعقائد المذكورة وما يشبهها من الضلالات

al-Sayyid al-Ḵḫʾūi said in Miṣbāḥ al-Faqāha, page 497.

“I say – It has been proven in the aḥādīṯh, the duʾās and the ziyārat the permissibility of cursing the muḵḫālifin, and the obligation of disassociating from them, and to increase the insults towards them, and to accuse them - ġheeba - because they are from the people of bidʾah, and the doubt/suspicion, and that there’s no doubt in their kufr [disbelief], because denying the wilayah, and the Imams, even one of them, and believing in the ḵḫilāfa of other than them, and also the belief in fictitious [fake] beliefs, such as al-jabr, obligates kufr and zandaqa [on the one that believes in it], and the recurring aḥādīṯh indicate that the denier of the wilayah is a kāfir, and the kufr of the person that believes in the aforementioned beliefs, and similar ḍhalālat.”

(1) disown here as in barʾah, to do tabarra from them.

vpFUhso.jpg

In Sunan Aʾbi Dāwūd, volume 7, page 6, ḥadīṯh (4597).

Narrated Muawiya, he said: The Messenger of Godoutput-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png stood up (on the pulpit; as an orator), and said:

“Indeed, before you, from the people of the book, were split into seventy two sects.

And indeed, this nation will split into seventy three sects - seventy two in hell & one in heaven - and they're the Jamāʾah.”

  1. Authenticated in Majmūʾ al-Fatāwa, volume 3, page 345.
  2. And in al-Iʾtiṣām, volume 1, page 430.
  3. And in Taḵḫrij al-Iḥʾiyā, volume 3, page 199.
  4. And al-Mustadrak, volume 1, page 128.
  5. Jāmiʾ al-Tirmiḏhi, ḥadīṯh (2565).
  6. Sunan ʾIbn Mājah, ḥadīṯh (3992).

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-b78-Gb-N55x0sl.thumb.jpg.fdf25a142f5a2d56b61581c4351a8a64.jpg

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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22 hours ago, mn05 said:

So basically this hadith is fabricated then.   

"Allah will not accept the belief of anyone who does not accept the wilayah of Hazrat Ali (ع) and one who does not dissociate  from his enemies."

(Ref: Biharul  Anwar - Vol. 26, Pg. 229, H. No 10)

This hadith is correct but you are unable to understand. You can't judge a book by it's cover. In past Wahb Kalbi and Zuhyar ibn Qayn showed the world that they believe in Ahlebait (عليه السلام) more than Sulemain ibn Surad Khizai, the former were Christian and Usmani Shia and later known as Twelver Shia. 

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On 9/18/2019 at 4:00 AM, Simon the Canaanite said:

In the book, al-tanqīḥ fī sharḥ al-urwa al-wūthqa, volume 3, page 80.

al-Sayyid al-Ḵḫʾūī said: “The correct is to rule with the purity of the muḵḫālifin of the Shiʾa, and with their outward Islam, with no difference in that, between the āhlul ḵḫilāf and the other sects - even though, in reality, they are disbelievers - and they are whom we named with, the Muslim of the dunyā, and the kāfir of āḵḫirah.”

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al-Ṣadūq said in al-Iʾtiqādat, page 118.

“And our belief in he who opposed (or differed) with us in one matter in religion, is as if he opposed us in every matter.”

Yūsuf al-Baḥrani said in al-ḥadāʾiq al-nāḍhirah,” volume 5, page 176.

“And he who denied it - al-wilayah - is a disbeliever, because he denied the greatest of what the Prophet came with, and an āṣl of its uṣūl.”

al-Māmaqani said in “tanqiḥ al-maqāl,” volume 1, page 208.

“And what is to be understood from the narrations, is the rule of the polytheist and disbeliever in the āḵḫirah, on everyone that wasn't an IthnāʾAshari.”

al-Sayyid Abdullāh Shubbar said in ḥaqqul yaqīn, volume 2, page 188.

“As for the rest of the muḵḫālifin - of whom wasn’t a nāṣibi, or a muʾānid and a mutaʾasib - the majority of the Imāmiyyah, like al-Sayyid al-Murtaḍha, believe that they are disbelievers in the dunyā and āḵḫirah, and the widely known is that they are disbelievers, in hell for eternity.”

In Ḥaqq al-Yaqīn (lithographic print), by al-Allāmah al-Majlesi.

He said: “All of the false (deviant) sects, such as: polytheists, disbelievers, hypocrites, zaidīyyah, faṭaḥiya, wāqifia, kaysāniyah, and Sunnis, are in hell for eternity.”

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In Biḥār al-Anwār, volume 23, page 89.

عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ : مَنْ مَاتَ وَليْسَ لهُ إمَامٌ مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً، وَلاَ يُعْذَرُ النَّاسُ حَتَّى يَعْرِفُوا إمَامَهُمْ

“Whoever died without an Imam, [has] died a death of jāhilyyah, and people are not forgiven, except when they know their Imam.”

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In the same book, volume 69, page 132.

That al-Imām al-Ṣādiq told Ḥamrān bin Aʾyan: “Whoever opposed you in this matter is a zindeeq,” Ḥamrān said: Even if he was a ʿalawi and a fāṭimi (Sayyid)? He said: “Even if he was a muḥammadi, ʿalawi and a fāṭimi.”

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فِي رِوَايَةِ أبِي حَمْزَةَ، عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ output-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png التَّارِكُونَ وَلاَيَةَ عَلِيٍّ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png الْمُنْكِرُونَ لِفَضْلِهِ الْمُظَاهِرُونَ أعْدَاءَهُ خَارِجُونَ عَنِ الْإسْلاَمِ، مَنْ مَاتَ مِنْهُمْ عَلَى ذَلِكَ

In the ḥadīṯh of Aʾbi Ḥamza, from Aʾbi Jʾafar, from the Prophet that he said: “The ones that left (forsook) the wilayah of Ali, who deny his virtues and cooperate with his enemies have exited Islam, who died from them on that.”

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مِنْ كِتَابِ الْمَسَائِلِ مِنْ مَسَائِلِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ عِيسَى حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ وَمُوسَى بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ قَالَ : كَتَبْتُ إِلَى أبِي الْحَسَنِ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png أسْألُهُ عَنِ النَّاصِبِ هَلْ أحْتَاجُ فِي اِمْتِحَانِهِ إلى أكْثَرَ مِنْ تَقْدِيمِهِ الجِبْتَ وَالطَّاغُوتَ وَاِعْتِقَادِ إمَامَتِهِمَا ؟ فَرَجَعَ الْجَوَابُ : مَنْ كَانَ عَلى هَذَا فَهُوَ نَاصِبٌ

That Mūsa bin Muḥammad bin Ali said: I wrote to Aʾbi l-Ḥasan asking him about examining to see whether a person is a nāṣib or not, do I need to ask about other than him preceding the jibt and ṭāġhut, and believing in their imāmah?

He said: Whoever [believed] in that is a nāṣib.

The jibt and ṭāġhut in the aḥādīṯh of Ahlulbāyt are Aʾbū Bakr and Omar, and Sunnis certainly precede them [over Imam Ali], and believe in their imāmah.

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وَعَنْ أبِي عَلِيٍّ الْخُرَاسَانِيِّ، عَنْ مَوْلًى لِعَلِيِّ بْنِ الحُسَيْنِ عَليْهِمَا السَّلَامُ قَالَ: كُنْتُ مَعَ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الحُسَيْنِ عَليْهِمَا السَّلَامُ فِي بَعْضِ خَلوَاتِهِ، فَقُلتُ: إنَّ لِي عَليْك حَقًا، ألَا تُخْبِرْنِي عَنْ هَذَيْنِ الرَّجُليْن، أبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ ؟ فَقَالَ: كَافِرَانِ، كَافِرٌ مَنْ أحَبَّهُمَا

Narrated Abʾi Ali al-Ḵḫurāsani, from a mawla of Ali bin al-Ḥusayn output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png he said: I was with Ali bin al-Ḥusayn output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png in one of his states of being alone, so I told him: Can’t you tell me about these two men, Abʾi Bakr and Omar? He said: Kuffār, whoever loved them is a kāfir.

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عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ: إنَّ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ نَصَبَ عَلِيًّا output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png عَلمَاً بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ خَلقِهِ، فَمَنْ عَرَفَهُ كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا، وَمَنْ أنْكَرَهُ كَانَ كَافِرًا، وَمَنْ جَهِلَهُ كَانَ ضَالًّا، وَمَنْ نَصَبَ مَعَهُ شَيْئًا كَانَ مُشْرِكًا، وَمَنْ جَاءَ بِوَلَايَتِهِ دَخَلَ الْجَنَّةَ

Aʾbi Jʾafar output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png said: “God, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious has appointed Ali output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png as a light house, between His self and His creatures. Whoever would recognize him, he will be a believer, and whoever would not recognize him will be an unbeliever. Those who would be ignorant of him would be lost (astray). Those who would ascribe [something] with him, would be polytheists, and those who would come with his wilayah would be admitted in paradise.”

(al-Kāfi, volume 1, page 277, tradition 1173).

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وَعَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ: أكْبَرُ الكَبَائِرِ، صَاحِبُ القَوْلِ الَّذِي يَقُولُ: أنَا أبْرَأُ مِمَّنْ يَبْرَأُ مِنْ أبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ

That Aʾbi J’afar output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png said: The greatest of the kabāʾir, is the person that says, “I disassociate myself from the person that disassociates himself from Aʾbi Bakr and Omar.”

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الوجه الأول: أنه ثبت في الروايات والأدعية والزيارات جواز لعن المخالفين، ووجوب البراءة منهم، وإكثار السبّ عليهم، واتّهامهم، والوقيعة فيهم ـ أي غيبتهم لأنّهم من أهل البدع والريب بل لا شبهة في كفرهم، لأنّ إنكار الولاية والأئمّة حتى الواحد منهم، والاعتقاد بخلافة غيرهم، وبالعقائد الخرافية كالجبر ونحوه يوجب الكفر والزندقة، وتدلّ عليه الأخبار المتواترة الظاهرة في كفر منكر الولاية، وكفر المعتقد بالعقائد المذكورة وما يشبهها من الضلالات

al-Sayyid al-Ḵḫʾūi said in Miṣbāḥ al-Faqāha, page 497.

“I say – It has been proven in the aḥādīṯh, the duʾās and the ziyārat the permissibility of cursing the muḵḫālifin, and the obligation of disassociating from them, and to increase the insults towards them, and to accuse them - ġheeba - because they are from the people of bidʾah, and the doubt/suspicion, and that there’s no doubt in their kufr [disbelief], because denying the wilayah, and the Imams, even one of them, and believing in the ḵḫilāfa of other than them, and also the belief in fictitious [fake] beliefs, such as al-jabr, obligates kufr and zandaqa [on the one that believes in it], and the recurring aḥādīṯh indicate that the denier of the wilayah is a kāfir, and the kufr of the person that believes in the aforementioned beliefs, and similar ḍhalālat.”

(1) disown here as in barʾah, to do tabarra from them.

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In Sunan Aʾbi Dāwūd, volume 7, page 6, ḥadīṯh (4597).

Narrated Muawiya, he said: The Messenger of Godoutput-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png stood up (on the pulpit; as an orator), and said:

“Indeed, before you, from the people of the book, were split into seventy two sects.

And indeed, this nation will split into seventy three sects - seventy two in hell & one in heaven - and they're the Jamāʾah.”

  1. Authenticated in Majmūʾ al-Fatāwa, volume 3, page 345.
  2. And in al-Iʾtiṣām, volume 1, page 430.
  3. And in Taḵḫrij al-Iḥʾiyā, volume 3, page 199.
  4. And al-Mustadrak, volume 1, page 128.
  5. Jāmiʾ al-Tirmiḏhi, ḥadīṯh (2565).
  6. Sunan ʾIbn Mājah, ḥadīṯh (3992).

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Beautiful! But, where did I say anything about the end destination of Sunnis?

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On 9/18/2019 at 12:30 PM, Jibrael-e-Muhammadi said:

This hadith is correct but you are unable to understand. You can't judge a book by it's cover. In past Wahb Kalbi and Zuhyar ibn Qayn showed the world that they believe in Ahlebait (عليه السلام) more than Sulemain ibn Surad Khizai, the former were Christian and Usmani Shia and later known as Twelver Shia. 

Yes brother I am unable to comprehend the hadith because our schalors are saying they (Sunnis) are Muslims but here it says that they are not Muslims? 

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12 hours ago, mn05 said:

Yes brother I am unable to comprehend the hadith because our schalors are saying they (Sunnis) are Muslims but here it says that they are not Muslims? 

Well, brother you do not have access to any heart and you are true about that you do not know and same stands for me because we both cannot tell what is going to happen us next day. And, since we both cannot know it, we should probably keep quiet. 

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I just want to let you all know that I love Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), Umar (رضي الله عنه) Uthman (رضي الله عنه) and Ali (عليه السلام).  And if that makes me a kafir then so be it!  I am a proud kafir.  

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On 9/15/2019 at 2:53 PM, aaaz1618 said:

This is something I had an issue, that Sunnis consider me not to be a Muslim for defending Shi'as and their beliefs and at the same time because I don't believe in certain Shi'a beliefs I am considered an unbeliever or at best unable to be a mu'min.

It bothered me at first, but I'm just getting on with it now. A lot of my beliefs go against what many believe, or at least a minority do believe it but might not say it aloud. I'm just going to have to live this life as a stranger and all that.

You have to be brave and not accept this religious dogmatism (its not worth it!).  This kind of dogma is what made people turn against Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  Even if people call you a kafir, know that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was called a kafir by many people and he didn't care, all he would do is pull out his Zulfiqar and destroy his enemies (I have in mind the Zulfiqar of his eloquent speech).

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You cannot reconcile the two sects no matter what and you can't take a middle ground either. You either believe in Imammate or not based on rational reasoning and researching. Of course, you can choose to believe without rationality but that would make you delusional. In regards to Sunnis who don't know anything about the Shia and Islamic history because they have been denied that knowledge, your ordinary Ahmad in the market, selling vegetables, I am sure God will judge him according to what he sought out to be and his intellectual abilities. But Sunnis who have done their research and still reject Imammate and go against it as well, well then, perhaps this hadith fits perfectly for them?

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4 minutes ago, Ali883 said:

You cannot reconcile the two sects no matter what and you can't take a middle ground either. You either believe in Imammate or not based on rational reasoning and researching. Of course, you can choose to believe without rationality but that would make you delusional. In regards to Sunnis who don't know anything about the Shia and Islamic history because they have been denied that knowledge, your ordinary Ahmad in the market, selling vegetables, I am sure God will judge him according to what he sought out to be and his intellectual abilities. But Sunnis who have done their research and still reject Imammate and go against it as well, well then, perhaps this hadith fits perfectly for them?

Alright.  So I was born into a Shia family.  I attend Shia majalis here and there.  And I am telling you that I love Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) and Umar (رضي الله عنه) and Uthman (رضي الله عنه).  

Do you call me a Kafir?

Am I irrational?  Is my intellect deficient.  Yes, I might not be the brightest on this forum, but I can assure you I am not your average joe in the market.  

              

Edited by eThErEaL

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Why should I bother with calling you a kaffir? Leave the judgement to Allah. On any day, in any circumstance you are my brother in Islam but perhaps not my brother in Shiaism. Everyone's journey to Allah is theirs alone to make so your beliefs are none of my business (assuming they harm no one). 

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1 minute ago, Ali883 said:

Why should I bother with calling you a kaffir? Leave the judgement to Allah. On any day, in any circumstance you are my brother in Islam but perhaps not my brother in Shiaism. Everyone's journey to Allah is theirs alone to make so your beliefs are none of my business (assuming they harm no one). 

good.

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Alhamdulilah, 

The believers are a single unit. Those that believe and submit to Allah and his oneness without association. Muhammad SAW said that those who understand Islam are in fact Muslims at heart. I believe he said this because all believers around the world are on the same signal of thought at the hearts core. There are different level of believers and different ranks of believers throughout the history of Earth. 

Somewhere we lost the meaning of what the message really is.  We think believers to only be in al-Islam as of the world religion but Allah knows who his believers are and they come from all walks of life. There are people walking around in various disbelieving religions by statistics only but not by heart. These are the people who accept the holy message easily because they are already on that signal at heart. 

Unbelievers are a separate entity. The Holy words of God are deaf to them. They are in disdain of having to submit to Allah. It’s more rebellion than even disbelief. They do not want to submit. Which is interesting because they would rather see themselves as a God or attempt to create a false God or many false gods to worship. 

There is a moral compass with believers that is is absent with disbelievers. No matter how bad the state of a believer is there is a sense of remorse for actions and the need to want to be forgiven by Allah. Some believers will even enter hell but it’s the belief in a true Allah that will save them. There is good in them enough for Allah to take them out of Hell. It was the actions and desires that led them to hell. Their actions reflected the rebellious before time ran out. 

So in short yes Sunnis are believers. Allah says he will show the various sects where they went went wrong in their aggression towards each other. Some will have to be disciplined for their rejections but they are still believers.  

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

I just want to let you all know that I love Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), Umar (رضي الله عنه) Uthman (رضي الله عنه) and Ali (عليه السلام).  And if that makes me a kafir then so be it!  I am a proud kafir.  

Relax You are not kafir You are Muslim and You can love your 3 khalifas we Shias don't really care but if you want us to recognize Your 3 khalifas and respect them then forgot about it buddy.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Alright.  So I was born into a Shia family.  I attend Shia majalis here and there.  And I am telling you that I love Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) and Umar (رضي الله عنه) and Uthman (رضي الله عنه).  

Do you call me a Kafir?

Am I irrational?  Is my intellect deficient.  Yes, I might not be the brightest on this forum, but I can assure you I am not your average joe in the market.  

              

The people on this board are often overly politically-correct, so do not expect an open answer from them. If an idol-worshipper made the post "Will I go to hell?" I doubt anyone here would answer openly out of fear that they might hurt his/her feelings or look too strict. 

Dear brother/sister, the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is similar to the Ark of Noah (عليه السلام), whosoever boards it will be saved and whosoever abandons it will perish. 

If you want clear, unrestrained and rational answers, please take the time to speak to a Shia Alim sometime. Ask your questions to him. 

In the end, people can say you are believer. What matters is when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) answers the question of whether you are a kaffir or mumin on the Day of Judgement. Everything else is just talk. 

May you be among those who prosper in both the dunya and ahirah. 

Wassalam. 

 

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On 9/17/2019 at 9:51 AM, mn05 said:

Walakumsalaam brother. This also applies to us as well. It depends on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept our deeds or not. I can't say I'm going to heaven because I pray, fast and give money to the poor. It depends on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for accepting my good deeds. Inshallah Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will accept our good deeds. 

Every Shia of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is promised heaven by Prophet Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) according to hadiths but before that Every Shia will also be accountable and punished for their actions in barzakh.

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I just want to let you all know that I love Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), Umar (رضي الله عنه) Uthman (رضي الله عنه) and Ali (عليه السلام).  And if that makes me a kafir then so be it!  I am a proud kafir.  

Salam Imam Ali (عليه السلام) status in not comparable with three of them & who puts Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in level of them is an idiot

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth5 like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

https://www.al-Islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-Abu-quhafah

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Imam Ali (عليه السلام) status in not comparable with three of them & who puts Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in level of them is an idiot

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth5 like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

https://www.al-Islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-Abu-quhafah

in particular he seems to specifically make a point regarding the sermon of Shaqshaqiyyah.


Can someone who understand Urdu kindly summarize please.  
 

 

There are also other responses from Shia scholars on YouTube like Maulana Rizvi from Toronto.   But it seems Tahir is making some other points not addressed.  (Could be mistaken though).  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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The above moulana in English has replied to the points of Tahir qadri. He was saying saying that Shias don't believe in shaqshaqiya and there is also no evidence in Sunni books about it but Maulana gave the references. 

Also if one denies the plotting done by the caliphs then what is being denied is that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was appointed by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) on the day of ghadeer. 

If one agrees about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) being appointed as successor to Prophet then all three and many were there who after witnessing it had forgotten it after demise of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Same like Musa (عليه السلام) when went over to mount Tur leaving Harun (عليه السلام) as his successor, all disbelieved in him, Hence Prophet said Ali (عليه السلام) is to me like Harun (عليه السلام) was to Musa (عليه السلام).

Allah has categorically stated about Adam (عليه السلام) that God appointed caliphs are having validity and any one who do not accepts are like Satan who out of arrogance do not accepted it are Rajeem.

Ghadeer event put things clear in black and white but due to saqifa there are lot of gray shades left and hence Karbala happened. 

And hence Karbala rememberance as we call it azadari is vital to not dilute the truth. 

No amount of distractions will help in keeping this truth in darkness.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by sadiqwaljee

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

in particular he seems to specifically make a point regarding the sermon of Shaqshaqiyyah.


Can someone who understand Urdu kindly summarize please.  
 

 

There are also other responses from Shia scholars on YouTube like Maulana Rizvi from Toronto.   But it seems Tahir is making some other points not addressed.  (Could be mistaken though).  

 

Here you go your Lying jahil molvi Tahir ul Qadri has been debunked on this topic 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Qasim-Raza said:

Here you go your Lying jahil molvi Tahir ul Qadri has been debunked on this topic 

 

 

Oh I see.  Well, I will just ignore you since I don’t appreciate slander of any scholar.   
 

shame on you.  

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28 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Oh I see.  Well, I will just ignore you since I don’t appreciate slander of any scholar.   
 

shame on you.  

You should keep in mind that in the school of thought of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), Nahjul Balagha is considered the best of books after the Qur'an. 

So questioning it and accusing it of fabrication is highly disrespectful. 

How would you feel if some jewish scholar made a video in which he tries to prove the Qur'an is a lie (God forbid). 

You would be angry with that scholar. Same with us being angry when someone disrespects Nahjul Balagha. 

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