Is Allah limited by the rules of logic???

[mahmood8726]

2 hours ago, Guest Random Nigerian said:

This one is not an answer and is just restating the question. The question poster already knows that those statements are nonsense and absurd (that's why they are asking in the first place), but they have acknowledged that it is by the logical process that we have come to know those things to be absurd (or they would not care).

I'm restating the question and indirectly telling him that it is his wrong understanding of logic as "rules" that is problematic here. 

2 hours ago, Guest Random Nigerian said:

We are all aware of what logic is here, but the problem is that they presumably heard someone describe logic as constraints instead of descriptions and now confused since they rightfully assume that Allah is free of all constraints.

Correct.

2 hours ago, Guest Random Nigerian said:

If you think of logic as a definition of the universe as we understand it, then the concept of being "limited" by its "rules" becomes incoherent and if Allah can be logically proven to exist then Allah either proves or disproves our current logic since Allah is now part of the description of reality and everything other observation we make must bend to accommodate him (or, he must bend to accommodate them). The whole reason why this problem exists is that people do not want to subject Allah to logical inquiry and therefore must presume him to be above the process somehow, and thus reality is treated as a "constraint" which all but Allah are held back by.

Yes, but in reality it's not a constraint, this is just a false understanding. It's what happens when people misunderstand the phrase "god can do anything", without thinking about what this sentence actually means. 

It's why at the end I did mention that the creator has a definition and the creation has a definition, this is more so about definitions, rather than "rules". 

Edited November 10 by mahmood8726

[Guest Random Nigerian]

29 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

Yes, but in reality it's not a constraint, this is just a false understanding. It's what happens when people misunderstand the phrase "god can do anything", without thinking about what this sentence actually means. 

 

That makes sense. I don't have an account and I only realized after sending the message that that meant that I couldn't update my comment, but after sending it I realized that I hadn't really done justice to that section of my text. I agree that a theistic definition of reality doesn't really need to suppose that logic is simply the composition of constraints that "govern" the universe, and God could be the universe itself. I remember watching once a video about tawheed before where different speakers from different tendencies and sects within Islam were given time to explain what tawheed was. I have since deleted that YouTube account so I can no longer access the video but one of the speakers had talked about believing that Allah was completely and totally single and had no attributes besides himself, and was so single that his only attribute was creating the pen, from which all of creation then occurred. Do say if you know what this is, I've been trying to find it for the past 10 minutes and nothing has come up. Anyway, I suppose under this tendency the concept of "logical constraints" would also make no sense either, since studying reality is just studying the after-effects of that single primordial action.

Actually, in retrospect, the earlier post was very hard to read in some sections, but I can't change it at this point I guess.

Also, what would you personally say the phrase means? I had some difficulty brainstorming on this one but I guess my way of looking at it would be that God as a part of the universe is independent of everything in the universe (by being outside of the development of time), and that everything is dependent on him by being a product of his word, so since everything that is done is done by God, God can and did do everything. But obviously not everything will be done, and since everything that will be done is everything that could have been done given the way God decided things to happen, then not everything can happen. I wrote this briefly so I'm not sure if there's a flaw in it; for all I know I will find it immediately I send the message.

[Abu Nur]

12 hours ago, Guest Random Nigerian said:

The third is also contradictory because Mathematics is an abstraction, or rather, an abstract way to describe real patterns that are observed in the universe by pulling them out of those things that exhibit said patterns

There is differences between using Math to apply it in observed universe and discovering theorems that have nothing to do with applying them in observed universe. But what builds all of this is logic.

 

Edited November 11 by Abu Nur

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam update of content

1. Hesham bin Hakam narrates:
Abu Shakir told me that he had a question and he asked me to arrange a meeting with my teacher, Imam Ja'far Sadiq (عليه السلام) because he had a question which he had asked many scholars but he had not got a convincing answer................................

Quote

However, it has been said that someone asked Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) that: Can God fit the world in an egg without it becomes bigger? In response, the Imam said: «إِنَّ الَّذِي قَدَرَ أَنْ يُدْخِلَ الَّذِي تَرَاهُ الْعَدَسَةَ أَوْ أَقَلَّ مِنْهَا قَادِرٌ أَنْ يُدْخِلَ الدُّنْيَا كُلَّهَا الْبَيْضَةَ»(4)؛ (4); (The God who can put the world in the lens of your eye and even smaller than that, can put the world in an egg). Does this narration have a compromise with the explanations given - about the non-attachment of divine power to impossible things - or not? In response, it should be said: it is somewhat difficult to understand some philosophical issues. For this reason, when this question was raised to the servants of the infalibles (peace be upon them), they would convince some of the questioners with a «اسكاتی»"silencing" answer that was within their understanding. And they left the «تحقيقی»"researching" answer for people who had a taste for understanding intellectual and philosophical issues. Therefore, Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) has provided an answer at the level of the audience's understanding in this narration, not that it is in the position of expressing a true answer. Like when a man raised the same question before Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him) and he gave the real answer in short and meaningful phrases like this:«إنّ اللَه تَعَالَى لَا ينسَب إلَى العَجز وَ الّذِي سَألتَنِي لَا يَكُون‏»(5) ; (Inability is not attributed to Allah, but what you asked is impossible). However, something that is inherently impossible does not happen due to power. Allah's absolute power does not mean that he makes  something possible which is impossible and unfeasible.(in other word he doesn't make something that is impossible unfeasible into possible ) (6)

(6) And the question of "does divine power belong to inherent impossibility (inherently  impossible) or not?" is not a correct question. (7)

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Imam said: What question did he ask?

( Can God fit the world in an egg without it becomes bigger?or world doesn't shrink!!??)

He said: He said such and such. Hazrat said: O Hisham, how many senses do you have! He said: Five senses. He said

Which one is smaller! He said Basereh باصره(i.e. eye). He said: What is the size of the viewer? He said:

The size of a lentil or smaller then he said: O Hisham, look ahead and above your head and tell me what you see, he said: I see the sky and the earth, houses and palaces, deserts, mountains and rivers. The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said that if he could make what you see in a lentil or smaller than a lentil in flour, he could put the world in an egg without the world becoming small and the egg becoming large, then Hisham bent down next to the Imam   and He kissed his hand  and his head and feet and said: I have enough, son of the Prophet, and returned to his home. Disani came to him the next day and said, O Hisham, I came to greet you, not to ask for an answer from you. Hisham said, "If you have come to ask for an answer, this is your answer." Disani left him and went home. Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) came and asked for permission, Hazrat  gave permission, when he sat down he said. O Jafar bin Muhammad, guide me to my god.............https://hawzah.net/fa/Question/View/62998/قدرت_خداوند_بر_جای_دادن_دنیا_در_یک_تخم_مرغ

 

Now in the sentence "Is God able to put the whole world in an egg?" Pay attention! The use of the word "power" here is meaningless; Because placing a vast world in an egg in such a way that neither the egg expands to the size of the world nor the world shrinks to the size of the egg is an impossible and invalid assumption. (2)
In other words, the wish for the world to be placed in the middle of an egg is the wish for the sum of two opposites. because it requires that one thing (egg) be both small and large; And this is a combination of opposites (3) and it is impossible.

 

https://makarem.ir/maaref/fa/article/index/414751/قرار-دادن-دنیا،-در-یک-تخم-مرغ!

.https://hawzah.net/fa/Question/View/62998/قدرت_خداوند_بر_جای_دادن_دنیا_در_یک_تخم_مرغ

https://iqna.ir/fa/news/4193595/3-پاسخ-به-یک-پرسش-قدیمی-آیا-خدا-می‌تواند-دنیا-را-داخل-یک-تخم‌مرغ-جا-دهد-صوت

https://rashedoon.ir/46992/خدا-و-قدرت-نامحدود-جهان-و-تخم-مرغ-دیصانی/

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/en22416

2. One day Abu Shakir came to the Imam and said, “Prove to me the existence of God.” Imam ((عليه السلام)) told him to be seated. At that time a boy passed by holding a hen’s egg. Imam ((عليه السلام)) called him, and taking the egg from him kept it on his palm. Then he told Abu Shakir, “See, it is such a strong fort that has no doors. On its outside is a hard skin and below it is a thin membrane, inside which flow two seas of gold and silver. But neither can the yellow mix with the white nor the white can merge with the yellow. Neither can a repairer enter it nor a destroyer comes out of it. No one can even know whether the newborn would be a male or a female. Then all of a sudden it cracks and a beautiful chick emerges from it. Can your reason agree that all this happened without a designer or a maker?” Hearing this Abu Shakir bowed down his head and said, “I repent for my beliefs today and accept the religion of Islam.”[iii]
Although these two reports do not have so strong chain of narration, their contents are coherent and consistent with the fundamentals of Islamic beliefs and theology. Thus, they can be used to argue with. Indeed, the argument in the second narration somehow signifies the kind of knowledge which Daysani had no knowledge before it.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/en22416

https://erfan.ir/english/77595.html

 

principles of shiite creed-Ayatullah Ibrahim Amini translated by Ali Reza’i

https://www.al-islam.org/printpdf/book/export/html/34239

https://www.al-Islam.org/principles-shiite-creed-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/lesson-4-order-faculty-thought

On 9/15/2019 at 11:59 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Note: An atheist was convinced by Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) regarding God’s existence by narrating about creation of a peacock with such beautiful fluorescent feathers. He said a peacock has not come to existence by itsef but God has created it by saying; be and it came to existence immediately as intended by God. Its egg also contains yellow and colorless liquids which is miraculously hatched a peacock.

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=11488

“Abu Shakir, no one knows whether the chicken that is hatched from this egg, will be male or female. And when the chicken emerges from the egg, it has beautiful colors. (For example, consider the colorful feathers of the peacock. What power has so beautifully painted the chicken?). Is painting a chicken or a peacock less important that painting a picture? Could it be ever said that these paintings have painters but these natural colorings have arisen by themselves?

Then, he said to Abu Shakir, “Don’t you agree that this egg and the chicken that is going to emerge from it with its attributes must have a thoughtful and wise Creator?”

https://www.al-Islam.org/principles-shiite-creed-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/lesson-4-order-faculty-thought

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/en22416

https://globe.aqr.ir/portal/home/?news/33685/27076/989579/Imam-Jafar-ibn-Muhammad-al-Sadiq-...-

Atheist & the egg

Universe into an Egg? Shia Imam

 

Existence of God in the sayings of Imam Ja’far as- Sadiq((عليه السلام).)

Compiled by Syed Zainul Abideen, Tehran, Iran

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=11488

 

Edited November 11 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

Addendum

If you say yes, it can cause a contradiction, if you say it cannot, God's power will be  limited.

This bug is an old bug. Once I asked this problem to my teacher, he answered that yes, God can do this, but the egg does not accept to conceive the world, the world does not accept to go inside the egg! I said that it will stay like this, I claim that I can lift a 300 kg stone, but the stone does not lift!

These problems have been answered for a long time and several answers have been given. Especially Mu'tazila answered like Zamakhshari.

In a narration, Imam said this is like putting the world inside your eyes. When you look at Faizia (name of Hawza of Qom), the image of all Faizia is in your eyes. A person asked the Imam the same question, and the Imam replied, «لایکون» In fact, the imam wants to say that the verse says that God is capable of everything, but this thing you asked is not an object (a thing) "شی", but is a non object (not a thing) "لاشی".

Some people who are logicians answered this question by saying that the relationship between power and impotence is the relationship between Malakeh ملکه  and lack, not the relationship between paradoxes or opposites. If it became the Malakeh ملکه and the void, he must adapt somewhere that is capable. For example, sighted and blind are used where there is a possibility of sight. So strength and weakness is where the capability is. If the capability is not there, neither the power is true nor the impotence is true.

Therefore, «علی کل شی قدیر»  "AAala kulli shayin qadeer"   Indeed Allah has power over all things.  is not the equivalent of the meeting of the non-conformists(paradoxes or opposites.)  , and the general verse is not allocated. If the doubt was to say that God is not powerless, this would be the answer, but we do not want to say that God is powerless, but we want to say that God is able. Anyway, this answer that we have given is the last answer that has been given and it finally proves that God is not powerless. In my opinion, we should go back to the Imam's answer that this is a  لاشی no a thing to do. So we quoted three answers; The first answer, which was good for debate, the third answer, which was reasonable, and the second answer, which second has been accepted by us.

https://tanzil.net/#2:20

https://iqna.ir/fa/news/4193595/3-پاسخ-به-یک-پرسش-قدیمی-آیا-خدا-می‌تواند-دنیا-را-داخل-یک-تخم‌مرغ-جا-دهد-صوت

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Power is the principle of the sovereign agent for the work that may arise from him.

The more perfect the agent is in terms of existence, the more power it will have, and naturally, a being with infinite perfection will have unlimited power. But it should be noted that the work that is related to power must be possible to be realized. So something that is inherently impossible or requires impossibility does not belong to power.

God's power to do anything does not mean that He can create another God, because God is neither created nor created. This article is like being able to make the number "2" bigger than the number "3" assuming it is "2"; Or create a child before his father by assuming that he is a child. If the other God is supposed to be God and naturally the creator and the non-created, how can it be created by the hands of another creator? This is an inherent impossibility and is out of the domain of  power specially . Almighty God has created the whole world from beginning (azal ازل) to eternity with one will.

One of the levels of the world of creation is the world of the universe, which is the world of movement. And movement means gradualness, which is inherent, which is the same as being gradual. Time is also the amount of movement. Therefore, the Almighty God did not create the world of movement gradually, but rather He created the gradualness from nothing ( He just says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is. (117)). It should be noted that God's creation was not in six days, but He created the earth and the sky as a gradual existence; Therefore, time is inherent in the material world. He did not create in time, but He created time. He did not create in six days, but He created the six days, which are the container of the world, with the world itself, by one will. In simpler terms, he created an inherently moving (gradual) entity called the world, from which time is abstracted; And from its gradual stage, six stages can be abstracted.

In summary, believing that God is superior to everything, it is no longer possible to say anything that is beyond God and His attributes. This does not mean that the power God is limited. Rather, God's power is infinite; But power requires the possible, which is called belonging to it and subject to power, and inherent impossibilities are outside the scope of the possible.

 

https://rashedoon.ir/46992/خدا-و-قدرت-نامحدود-جهان-و-تخم-مرغ-دیصانی/

Edited November 11 by Ashvazdanghe