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In the Name of God بسم الله
Hussain Haider Bilgrami

Is it ok to do lanat on the first 3 caliphs?

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I hear many people (Mostly followers of Yasser Habib) cursing the first 3 Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. Do you think it is ok to do lanat on these people? Give me a reason why. I personally believe it is fine to criticise them and maybe even insult them in private but it is very wrong to do lanat on them in public or in private.

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In Tāqrīb ʿal-Maʾārif, page 244, by Abʾū l-Ṣalāḥ ʿal-Ḥālabi.

وَعَنْ أبِي عَلِيٍّ الْخُرَاسَانِيِّ، عَنْ مَوْلًى لِعَلِيِّ بْنِ الحُسَيْنِ عَليْهِمَا السَّلَامُ قَالَ: كُنْتُ مَعَ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الحُسَيْنِ عَليْهِمَا السَّلَامُ فِي بَعْضِ خَلوَاتِهِ، فَقُلتُ: إنَّ لِي عَليْك حَقًا، ألَا تُخْبِرْنِي عَنْ هَذَيْنِ الرَّجُليْن، أبِي بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ ؟ فَقَالَ: كَافِرَانِ، كَافِرٌ مَنْ أحَبَّهُمَا

Narrated Abʾi Ali ʿal-Ḵḫurāsani, from a māwla of Ali bin ʿal-Ḥusāyn output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png he said: I was with Ali bin ʿal-Ḥusāyn output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png in one of his states of being alone, so I told him: Can’t you tell me about these two men, Abʾi Bākr and Omar? He said: Kuffār, whoever loved them is a kāfir.

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-dUmpMp3vQM.thumb.jpg.c4489083e96e3020cc7c33841812fa2a.jpg

ʿal-Sāyyid al-Ḵḫʾūi said in Miṣbāḥ ʿal-Fāqaha, page 497.

الوجه الأول: أنه ثبت في الروايات والأدعية والزيارات جواز لعن المخالفين، ووجوب البراءة منهم، وإكثار السبّ عليهم، واتّهامهم، والوقيعة فيهم ـ أي غيبتهم لأنّهم من أهل البدع والريب بل لا شبهة في كفرهم، لأنّ إنكار الولاية والأئمّة حتى الواحد منهم، والاعتقاد بخلافة غيرهم، وبالعقائد الخرافية كالجبر ونحوه يوجب الكفر والزندقة، وتدلّ عليه الأخبار المتواترة الظاهرة في كفر منكر الولاية، وكفر المعتقد بالعقائد المذكورة وما يشبهها من الضلالات

“I say – It has been proven in the aḥādith, the duʾās and the ziyārat the permissibility of cursing the muḵḫālifin, and the obligation of disassociating from them, and to increase the insults towards them, and to accuse them - ġheebā - because they are from the people of bidʾah, and the doubt/suspicion, and that there’s no doubt in their kufr [disbelief], because denying the wilayah, and the Imams, even one of them, and believing in the ḵḫilāfa of other than them, and also the belief in fictitious [fake] beliefs, such as ʿal-jābr, obligates kufr and zandaqā [on the one that believes in it], and the recurring aḥādith indicate that the denier of the wilāyah is a kāfir, and the kufr of the person that believes in the aforementioned beliefs, and similar ḍhālalat.”

vpFUhso.jpg

This debate is also going to help.

عَنْ أبِي جَعْفَرٍ output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png قَالَ: إنَّ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ نَصَبَ عَلِيًّا output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png عَلمَاً بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ خَلقِهِ، فَمَنْ عَرَفَهُ كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا، وَمَنْ أنْكَرَهُ كَانَ كَافِرًا، وَمَنْ جَهِلَهُ كَانَ ضَالًّا، وَمَنْ نَصَبَ مَعَهُ شَيْئًا كَانَ مُشْرِكًا، وَمَنْ جَاءَ بِوَلَايَتِهِ دَخَلَ الْجَنَّةَ

Aʾbi Jʾafar output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png said: “God, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious has appointed Ali output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png as a light house, between His self and His creatures. Whoever would recognize him, he will be a believer, and whoever would not recognize him will be an unbeliever. Those who would be ignorant of him would be lost (astray). Those who would ascribe [something] with him, would be polytheists, and those who would come with his wilayāh would be admitted in paradise.”

(al-Kāfi, volume 1, page 277, tradition 1173).

3.thumb.jpg.63024651734a7e6eb0e5a8c7db1132c9.jpg

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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42 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

I say – It has been proven in the aḥādith, the duʾās and the ziyārat the permissibility of cursing the muḵḫālifin, and the obligation of disassociating from them, and to increase the insults towards them, and to accuse them - ġheebā - because they are from the people of bidʾah, and the doubt/suspicion, and that there’s no doubt in their kufr [disbelief], because denying the wilayah, and the Imams, even one of them, and believing in the ḵḫilāfa of other than them, and also the belief in fictitious [fake] beliefs, such as ʿal-jābr, obligates kufr and zandaqā [on the one that believes in it], and the recurring aḥādith indicate that the denier of the wilāyah is a kāfir, and the kufr of the person that believes in the aforementioned beliefs, and similar ḍhālalat.”

What I untill this day do not understand is that because people who do not believe in wilayah of the 12 Imams [as] are unconditionally kuffar. I do not disbelieve in this concept, but it is so hard to prove the concept. Do you truly think these Sunnis can not read the Qur'an

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58 minutes ago, Hussain Haider Bilgrami said:

I hear many people (Mostly followers of Yasser Habib) cursing the first 3 Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. Do you think it is ok to do lanat on these people? Give me a reason why. I personally believe it is fine to criticise them and maybe even insult them in private but it is very wrong to do lanat on them in public or in private.

We don't have a strong narration about cursing them & all people like as Yaser Hiabib cursing doctrine based on policy of "divide & conquer" policy of Mi6 & other Zionist based agencies & it forbidden by marajis like as Imam Khamenei .

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7 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

What I untill this day do not understand is that because people who do not believe in wilayah of the 12 Imams [as] are unconditionally kuffar. I do not disbelieve in this concept, but it is so hard to prove the concept. Do you truly think these Sunnis can not read the Qur'an

True, but some Sunnis believe at the same thing, if you deny the companionships of Abu Bakr to the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), you are kafir because he is mentioned in the Qur'an and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) praised him (according to Ahlul Sunna). So sadly, we can’t do anything about it. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only one who knows the true believers. 

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Whether anyone curse them or not, these personalities are cursed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because of one simple & clear clause as mentioned in Qur'an:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:
وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).
(English - Shakir)

I don't think anyone here would disagree with the fact that these three are the ones who have contaminated the truth and have concealed it too. So here is the result:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
(English - Shakir)

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I read his posted narrations , he brings it from weak sources & weak traditions that spreads by Shirazi cult.

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7 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I read his posted narrations , he brings it from weak sources & weak traditions that spreads by Shirazi cult.

Al-Kafi is not a weak source. It is from Qutube Arbah. Also read Al-khoei's view in Miṣbāḥ ʿal-Fāqaha that was posted. He had a good grip of Ilme Rijaal. I believe we all consider him a reliable faqih.

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Guest Pschological Warfare
1 hour ago, Hussain Haider Bilgrami said:

I hear many people (Mostly followers of Yasser Habib) cursing the first 3 Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. Do you think it is ok to do lanat on these people? Give me a reason why. I personally believe it is fine to criticise them and maybe even insult them in private but it is very wrong to do lanat on them in public or in private.

If we want to Discuss something- we need discuss it on a stand alone basis,  in a logical, rational, intellectual and dispassionate manner, without political or country/region/party related issues.

It is not ok to Criticize  or Insult anyone in public, only to agitate a particular group. Its not productive. In public offer facts - and try to get the intended party to think- Asked them do you know what happened to the Daughter of Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny). Once they investigate, they will do what you should not do- as they do not understand what happened. For those who do understand and comprehend what happened and still insist on white washing the facts- they are of the Unjust. (33:57)

What you do in private or in your own group does not need to be clarified. 

---------------------------

You wold need to Stop reciting the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) if you are concerned with the Public image. Disassociation in general terms is Mandatory. 

However, Five times a day in the Obligatory Salat/Prayer we are to recite the First Surah of the Qur'an

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

------------------------

 

Read the Two Verses together: You will see that Both go hand in hand. 

 

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا {56}

[Shakir 33:56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.
[Pickthal 33:56] Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.
[Yusufali 33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا مُهِينًا {57}

[Shakir 33:57] Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.
[Pickthal 33:57] Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained.
[Yusufali 33:57] Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.

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55 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Al-Kafi is not a weak source. It is from Qutube Arbah. Also read Al-khoei's view in Miṣbāḥ ʿal-Fāqaha that was posted. He had a good grip of Ilme Rijaal. I believe we all consider him a reliable faqih.

I said it the book that he refers above narrations before Kafi narration he plays with hadiths to prove his false idea the narration in Kafi talks about acceptance of Wialayat & don't have any relation to cursing but narration from other books that he mentioned are weak & against Qur'an & teaching of Ahlul Bayt except Narration from Kafi book .

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1 hour ago, Diaz said:

True, but some Sunnis

Yes, some

 according to al Kafi Sunnis will go to hell. But I can’t imagine how they are going to hell for something that is not clear in Qur'an and sunnah

If you go to any laymen they can’t prove imamah it just some unclear/Ghadeer/12 khalifa hadiths thingy while it is such a fundemental

Edited by Mortadakerim

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Not sure how we're going to bring our Sunni brothers to our side if we keep insulting the people they revere. There is a way to delicately and tactfully address the flaws of Sunni figures, and you'll find that to be more effective than just saying "la3na on Aisha". I remember this one Sunni sheikh who had good akhlaq, he told us exactly how he feels when people insult Aisha. He said that it makes him sad in the same way when people draw insulting cartoons of Prophet Mohammed s.a. If at worst we're enraging them, and at best we're upsetting them, you should save your breath because it's not going to make a single positive difference for our cause. 

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Guest Pschological warfare
2 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

If you go to any laymen they can’t prove imamah it just some unclear/Ghadeer/12 khalifa hadiths thingy while it is such a fundemental

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Yusufali 1:6] Show us the straight way,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Yusufali 1:7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

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36 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Yes, some

 according to al Kafi Sunnis will go to hell. But I can’t imagine how they are going to hell for something that is not clear in Qur'an and sunnah

If you go to any laymen they can’t prove imamah it just some unclear/Ghadeer/12 khalifa hadiths thingy while it is such a fundemental

Yes, and some Shi’a believe that Sunnis are kafirs, so it’s not a big deal. 

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Yes, some

 according to al Kafi Sunnis will go to hell. But I can’t imagine how they are going to hell for something that is not clear in Qur'an and sunnah

If you go to any laymen they can’t prove imamah it just some unclear/Ghadeer/12 khalifa hadiths thingy while it is such a fundemental

Leaving Qur'an and Ahlulbait (عليه السلام) is essential narration that one must accept, now ask for all the members of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) why all of them preached and believed on 12 Imams? If laymen have not even reached proper understanding or found proof for the 12 Imams (عليه السلام), they are not accountable. I mean look majority of Muslims, mostly they are not even aware of hadith thaqalayn, how they even know anything about 12 Imams.

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Following Yassir Al-Habib is simply wrong. He is a deviant.

There are always things you do in public and things you do in private. Do tawalla publicly and tabarra privately.

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

I mean look majority of Muslims, mostly they are not even aware of hadith thaqalayn, how they even know anything about 12 Imams.

Implying that these laymen are on truth, because they are born on truth. So what’s the difference between a Sunni and a shi’a who doesn’t know twelve Imams proof

2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Leaving Qur'an and Ahlulbait (عليه السلام) is

It is not just about Ahlul Bayt [as]. It is about the doctrine of 12 Imams. I have not seen very strong proof for it and I am not the only one. The concept is so unclear yet Shi’a ahadith state that the one who prays for a thousand years but has no wilayah, goes to hell! Hadith thaqalayn does not say follow twelve infallible Imams appointed by Allah. If it is hadith thaqalayn, then zaidis are also cursed, while even they believe in some sort of wilayah and love Ahlul Bayt. Yet, they are cursed

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1 hour ago, Guest Pschological warfare said:

Yusufali 1:6] Show us the straight way,

So Allah says follow Prophet Muhammad. He says worship Allah. He talks about yawm al qiyamah. He talks about everything which is essentail, but when it comes to imamah, we have to take some verses with the “deeper meaning”.

1 hour ago, Guest Pschological warfare said:

Yusufali 1:7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

This can mean Prophets martyrs etc etc

why is 12 Imams concept so limitedly mentioned in the Qur’an

1 hour ago, Diaz said:

Yes, and some Shi’a believe that Sunnis are kafirs, so it’s not a big deal. 

My point is that imamah is so unclear yet the one who disbelieves in it will go to hell

Sunnis can prove their beliefs easily while we as Shias can’t prove imamah even after 10 Hours of debating

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48 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Implying that these laymen are on truth, because they are born on truth. So what’s the difference between a Sunni and a shi’a who doesn’t know twelve Imams proof

The amount of doubts you can place in one comment is fascinating, to be honest.

48 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

It is not just about Ahlul Bayt [as]. It is about the doctrine of 12 Imams. I have not seen very strong proof for it and I am not the only one. The concept is so unclear yet Shi’a ahadith state that the one who prays for a thousand years but has no wilayah, goes to hell!

In Sunān Aʾbi Dāwūd, volume 7, page 6, ḥādith (4597).

Narrated Muawiya, he said: The Messenger of Godoutput-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png stood up (on the pulpit; as an orator), and said:

“Indeed, before you, from the people of the book, were split into seventy two sects.

And indeed, this nation will split into seventy three sects - seventy two in hell & one in heaven - and they're the Jamāʾah.”

  1. Authenticated in Mājmūʾ al-Fatāwa, volume 3, page 345.
  2. And in al-Iʾtiṣām, volume 1, page 430.
  3. And in Tāḵḫrij al-Iḥʾiyā, volume 3, page 199.
  4. And Al-Mustādrak, volume 1, page 128.
  5. Jāmi al-Tirmiḏhi, ḥādith (2565).
  6. Sunān ʾIbn Mājah, ḥādith (3992).

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-b78-Gb-N55x0sl.thumb.jpg.fdf25a142f5a2d56b61581c4351a8a64.jpg

48 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Hadith thaqalayn does not say follow twelve infallible Imams appointed by Allah.

In Ṣāḥih Muslim, page 882, ḥādith (1821), print of Dār Ṭeebā.

Narrated Qutāybah bin Sāʾid, from Jārir, from Ḥuṣāyn, from Jābir bin Sāmura, he said:

I joined the company of the Prophet with my father and I heard him say: “This caliphate will not end until there have been twelve caliphs among them.” The narrator said: Then he said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: “All of them will be from the Qurāysh.”

EiCgxML.jpg

48 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

If it is hadith thaqalayn, then zaidis are also cursed, while even they believe in some sort of wilayah and love Ahlul Bayt. Yet, they are cursed

Yes, they are cursed, but there is a reason for that.

First of all, we have traditions, that if you reject one Imam, it is as if you’ve rejected all.

Secondly, Zāidis (and Ismāʾilis) have different Imams, and you see that they regard some of our Imams as liars (God forbid).

For example, I heard that when Ismāʾilis visit Baghdad, and see the golden domes of the Kāḍhimiya shrine, they frown, because they regard the two Imams as liars (God forbid), because they believe, in stead of them, in Ismail and Muhammad bin Ismail.

Get it?

And thirdly, Zāidis do tākfir of the Imam that doesn’t revolt (or enjoin good and forbid wrong), so they’ve easily did tākfir of eight of our Imāms!

Fourthly, see this.

الْبُرَاثِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عَلِيٍّ قَالَ: حَكَى مَنْصُورٌ، عَنِ اَلصَّادِقِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ اَلرِّضَا عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلَامُ: أَنَّ الزَّيْدِيَّةَ والْوَاقِفِيَّةَ وَاَلنُّصَّابَ عِنْدَهُ بِمَنْزِلَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ الْبُرَاثِيِّ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو عَلِيٍّ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الْقَاسِمِ الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدَ بْنِ عُمَرَ بْنِ يَزِيدَ، عَنْ عَمِّهِ، عَنْ جَدِّهِ عُمَرُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ، قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ فَحَدَّثَنِي مَلِيًّا فِي فَضَائِلِ الشِّيعَةِ ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ مِنَ الشِّيعَةِ بَعْدَنَا مَنْ هُمْ شَرٌّ مِنَ النُّصَّابِ قُلْتُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ أَلَيْسَ يَنْتَحِلُونَ حُبَّكُمْ وَيَتَوَلَّوْنَكُمْ وَيَتَبَرَّؤُنَ مِنْ عَدُوِّكُمْ؟ قَالَ: نَعَمْ، قَالَ، قُلْتُ: جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ بَيِّنْ لَنَا نَعْرِفْهُمْ فَلَسْنَا مِنْهُمْ قَالَ: كَلَّا يَا عُمَرُ مَا أَنْتَ مِنْهُمْ إِنَّمَا هُمْ قَوْمٌ يُفْتَنُونَ بِزَيْدٍ وَيُفْتَنُونَ بِمُوسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي الْفَارِسِيُّ يَعْنِي أَبَا عَلِيٍّ، عَنْ يَعْقُوبِ ابْنِ يَزِيدٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ، عَمَّنْ حَدَّثَهُ قَالَ، قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ الرِّضَا عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلَامُ عَنْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ1525435553_output-onlinepngtools(2).png.b8d2ae40d29e1f8563210972e35964bc.pngوُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ خَاشِعَةٌ عَامِلَةٌ نَّاصِبَةٌ1306131289_output-onlinepngtools(4).png.39825b032a3563c3c651bcb47cedf5ed.pngقَالَ: نَزَلَتْ فِي النُّصَّابِ وَالزَّيْدِيَّةِ وَالْوَاقِفَةِ مِنَ النُّصَّابِ

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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5 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

This can mean Prophets martyrs etc etc

Apparently, way of ALL  the preceding representative of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) reached its finalized state in the one who is the Mercy to the worlds and has more right on you and directed you to this fact "For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِلْعَالَمِينَ {107}

[Shakir 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

----------------------------------

World today knows the Prophet of the book of Muslim/Bukhari and Teacher of the Caliphs( Caliphate )  -  students point to their Master/teacher . Whatever the master  of History wrote and publish is that the Real Muhammad? 

Find me a Muslim who will deny the Way of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is the best/brightest / straightest path/way to the Real Muhammad al - Mustafa ( peace be upon him and his pure progeny).

I am a Shia of the Mawla of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) , I dis associate myself from the Mawla of Others. (1:7).

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11 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

The amount of doubts you can place in one comment is fascinating, to be honest.

 

Very fascinating, indeed. 

11 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

And indeed, this nation will split into seventy three sects - seventy two in hell & one in heaven - and they're the Jamāʾah.”

Yes, but I am not talking about this. A Sunni doesn’t need 2563 hours to prove his beliefs

11 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

I joined the company of the Prophet with my father and I heard him say: “This caliphate will not end until there have been twelve caliphs among them.” The narrator said: Then he said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: “All of them will be from the Qurāysh.”

Yes, the hadith can be interpreted in various ways. This is not clear cut. Otherwise all Sunnis would have converted, since this hadith is very famous

If This believe is so fundemental why did Allah not just make it clear from the Qur’an.

why the hidden meanings?

You see how hard it is to convince?

and you over an over again try to confirm the painful chastisment of Sunnis. What is the point? 

 

Edited by Mortadakerim

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35 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

why is 12 Imams concept so limitedly mentioned in the Qur’an

What is the Importance of Salat/Obligatory Prayers? 

You can question why this important and integral  Concept is mentioned in a limited way? who is to define it further ? 

The Muslim world can't agree  and is divided on something their Master/Mawla did Five times a day.

If the things were so clear So, this line of distraction that why we have division is really not going to productive. Read  The Holy Qu'ran Surah 63 ( Al- Munnafiqoon- The Hypocrites)

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Implying that these laymen are on truth, because they are born on truth. So what’s the difference between a Sunni and a shi’a who doesn’t know twelve Imams proof

How can someone be born in truth when they have not reached the truth? When they seek and reach the truth and practice and sincerely believe in the truth, then those people are very different from others. Shia and Sunni are nothing but labels.

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It is not just about Ahlul Bayt [as]. It is about the doctrine of 12 Imams. I have not seen very strong proof for it and I am not the only one. The concept is so unclear yet Shi’a ahadith state that the one who prays for a thousand years but has no wilayah, goes to hell!

 

You are either right or wrong, maybe you have find the proof maybe not. For me it is more clearly than the daily sun, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guided me to such a way. 

Quote

Hadith thaqalayn does not say follow twelve infallible Imams appointed by Allah. If it is hadith thaqalayn, then zaidis are also cursed, while even they believe in some sort of wilayah and love Ahlul Bayt. Yet, they are cursed

It says follow the Family of the Prophet (saws) and every Imam from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have appointed the successor that God have chosen and they are part of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). I personally believe that either the heart accept them or not.

Edited by Abu Nur

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36 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:
 

Yes, the hadith can be interpreted in various ways. This is not clear cut. Otherwise all Sunnis would have converted, since this hadith is very famous

If This believe is so fundemental why did Allah not just make it clear from the Qur’an.

why the hidden meanings?

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

-----------------

Qu'ran and  Ahlul Bayth(عليه السلام) - [Al-Kisa the people of the  Hadth of Cloak( to avoid further confusion/distraction)] not Qur'an and Hadith/Sunnah( as you pointed it -  is subjective and in addition to that new hadith can be invented as was the case in Fadak. Hadith was the case of Division in Fadak, so it has to be a Living, walking, Talking Qur'an that makes the Mute book clear.

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guided me to such a way.

Pray for me that Allah guids me like he did with you. I would love to attain yaqeen and worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) eternally in heaven Insha’Allah

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Pray for me that Allah guids me like he did with you. I would love to attain yaqeen and worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) eternally in heaven Insha’Allah

I will brother, May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us till we return to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with peace heart.

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Yes, the hadith can be interpreted in various ways. This is not clear cut. Otherwise all Sunnis would have converted, since this hadith is very famous

If This believe is so fundemental why did Allah not just make it clear from the Qur’an.

why the hidden meanings?

Who told you they were not mentioned by name?

They were mentioned by ʾal-Qundūzi ʾal-Ḥānafi ʾal-Bālḵḫi in Yanābiʾ al-Mawāddah, volume 3, page 546.

Which he narrated from the Ḥānafi scholar, Abʾū l-Mūʾayyād ʾal-Mūwāffaq bin Aḥmād ʾal-Ḵḫawārizmi - also known as - Aḵḫṭāb Ḵḫawārizm.

And he also narrated it from ʾal-Ḥumāwayini ʾal-Juwāyini ʾal-Shāfiʾi, whom ʾal-Ḏhahābi praised in Tāḏhkirat ʾal-Ḥuffāḍh, volume 4, number 1505.

ʾal-Ḏhahābi said (regarding him):

“I heard from the Imam, the unique, perfect muḥāddith, pride of Islam, Ṣādr ʾal-Din, Ibrāhim bin Ḥāmad bin Ḥamāwayh ʾal-Ḵḫurāsani ʾal-Juwāyini, Shāykh ʾal-Ṣūfyiah, he came to us wanting aḥādith, and narrated to us from two men from the aṣḥāb of al-Mūʾayyād al-Ṭūsi, and he was very caring for riwayah, good in reading, handsome, solemn, and righteous, and at his hands, the King, Ghazan, became Muslim. He died in the year of 722, at the age of 78, may Allah have mercy on him.”

سمعت من الإمام المحدث الأوحد الأكمل فخر الإسلام، صدر الدين إبراهيم بن حمد بن حمويه الخراساني الجويني، شيخ الصوفية، قدم علينا طالب حديث وروى لنا عن رجلين من أصحاب المؤيد الطوسي، وكان شديد الاعتناء بالرواية وتحصيل الأجزاء، حسن القراءة، مليح الشكل مهيباً ديفنًا صالحًا، وعلى يده أسلم غازان الملك، مات سنة أثنتين وعشرين وسبعمائة وله ثمان وسبعون سنة، رحمه الله تعالى

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-kaaobq8WONTuV3fA.jpg.e0b843cacb0d6b649e0bd17b95468ba7.thumb.jpg.516b25352f575abc503a3d027f700f16.jpg

And ʾal-Qundūzi is not Shiʾa as some laymen tried to portray him, because he sends mercy upon Aisha, as seen in page 125 of his book.

(In addition to other “caliphs,” whom the Shiʾa clearly despise).

joVMkka.jpg

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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7 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Pray for me that Allah guids me

Very simple, whenever you recite this ponder/reflect on it. Who' path (way of life) you need to follow and who's path you need to avoid. 1:6 is a dua, 1:7 is the answer to your Dua. 

If you need to follow the path or the way of life- by definition that person is your Mawla/Master ( Political/Religious etc) I.e Your Imam in this world and you will be raised with him in the next. 

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

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18 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

 I would love to attain yaqeen and worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

Like anything, there were pious, faithful , valiant and knowledgeable companions but like the secular world there may be many good universities you send your kid to the best among the best. There may be good qualified doctors but you want the best of the best. Its our nature. 

So, there may be many who displayed yaqeen but I find the Yaqeen on the night of migration, the yaqeen on 19th of Ramadan and 10th of Muharram that tells me I want to worship their God. The ones who paid with their blood to ensure I have Yaqeen in Him(عزّ وجلّ).

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Shukraan for all of your responses, but what about Taqiyyah? Back in my home country (Pakistan) us Shias usually refer to the first 3 caliphs as "Hazrat Abu Bakr" whether people know we're Shias or not. We usually do it either as Taqiyyah or just to respect the Sunni majority (It depends on whether they know we are Shia or not). I use to actually be a follower of Yasser Habib but I realised that he just spreads disunity among the Ummah and you people should not be deceived by him. Let's not forget that he also cursed Sayyed Ali Khamenei (رضي الله عنه). 

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