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In the Name of God بسم الله
786:)

Taraweeh vs Zanjeer

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How is one labeled bidah/haram and the other not?

if you apply the same framework to conclude taraweeh as bidah/haram, you will reach the same conclusion about zanjeer.

How come only Sayed Khamenei has spoke out against zanjeer? Why are the other ayotollahs silent?

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Guest Pschological Warfare
1 hour ago, 786:) said:

 

How come only Sayed Khamenei has spoke out against zanjeer? Why are the other ayotollahs silent?

Based on the website promoted/your affiliation. 

What is your opinion on "Ash hadu anna Aliyyan wali Ullah” in Adhan. 

Do you agree with Leader of the Islamic republic of Iran on this Issue of Fiqh? 

If No. 

Do you follow Jurists in general as your Marja-e-Taqleed? 

If No.

In this case, you are just utilizing what benefits your cause.(whatever that maybe).

If the answers answers are Yes to above two question- You know the solution - Follow your Marja. 

This is how we layman, work in weeding out productive and unproductive discussion(s).

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Maybe because taraweeh has become an internal part of their faith, which wasn’t in the first place.

The difference is:

We believe, or should I say rather I believe the hasanat don’t not come from striking yourself, they come from the remembrance of Hussayn (ع). I also do not believe that zanjeer is part of our faith. And neither do I support it. In my opinion, one should not consider practising zanjeer, especially because people think that is the only thing they (Shi’as) do and therefore they don’t come close to the “barbaric cult”. 

Edited by Mortadakerim

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1 minute ago, Mortadakerim said:

Maybe because taraweeh has become an internal part of their faith, which wasn’t in the first place.

The difference is:

We believe, or should I say rather I believe the hasanat don’t not come from striking yourself, they come from the remembrance of Hussayn (ع). I also do not believe that zanjeer is part of our faith. And neither do I support it. In my opinion, one should not consider practising zanjeer, especially because people think that is the only thing they do and therefore they don’t come close to the “barbaric cult”. 

My contention is around those who criticize taraweeh, but fully support tatbir/zanjeer. This is a double standard. Both are equally bidah.

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One was done by the Prophet for a couple of nights and then he stopped because of his own choice, the other was never done by the Prophet. What people did afterwards made one an innovation and the other I can't comment on as I don't know the full story behind it.

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4 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

One was done by the Prophet for a couple of nights and then he stopped because of his own choice

Taraweeh? He never did it. That was salatul layl if I’m not wrong. 

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51 minutes ago, Diaz said:

Taraweeh? He never did it. That was salatul layl if I’m not wrong. 

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/140

Quote

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of anger, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed, I.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer."

More narrations:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/96/21

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/6/3

https://sunnah.com/Muslim/6/211

It became congregational prayer during reign of 2nd caliph who said it was a good bid'ah

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56 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/140

More narrations:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/96/21

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/6/3

https://sunnah.com/Muslim/6/211

It became congregational prayer during reign of 2nd caliph who said it was a good bid'ah

Exactly, he never did it. Read more here https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/laws-and-practices-why-do-shiah-avoid-tarawih-congregations

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Thing is though, were does one draw the line with this line of thinking (me included)? Innovation by definition is that which that was added to the religion after the Prophet (S).

On that token, the Qur'an compilation could be an innovation (depending which version of events you believe). The adding of dialects to Qur'an, innovation. The tasbih with beads, innovation. Hadith collection, innovation. Ilm al-rijal, innovation. Checking the sources, authenticating, jurisprudential works, watching majlis on tv, listening to Qur'an on an mp3 player, dressing up as the kuffar, etc. all innovation.

So. There has got to be a concept of good and bad innovation otherwise we're breaking the 'no innovation rule' on a daily basis.

Now the "everything allowed unless explicitly prohibited" is making a bit more sense. I think as a general rule, an act that doesn't go against the prescribed (should a verdict be present), otherwise to measure the effects of an act on the religion (remember we're ambassadors) and stay on the precautionary side.

As a former self flaggelator, does that mean I don't love Imam Hussain as much now since I no longer do it? No right. The whole reason for me stopping is because its a grey area and I'd rather take the precautionary route to seek the pleasure than the wrath.

Fi Amanillah

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Sunnis pray tarawih in congregation thinking they are following the sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) even though he forbade it. If Sunnis prayed Tarawih saying they are following the sunnah of Caliph Umar, there would be no problem with it. It's the false pretense that's the problem.

The Shias who do zanjeer or tatbir don’t make false claims that it was done by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) just to justify their actions.

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8 hours ago, 786:) said:

How come only Sayed Khamenei has spoke out against zanjeer? Why are the other ayotollahs silent?

Salams,

Crazy, right? How can these experts in fiqh disagree with each other, reaching different conclusions between themselves, let alone differing with a member of ShiaChat's poorly thought out analogy? Ridiculous.

I'm curious to what level you're able to conduct independent research.

Wassalam

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11 hours ago, 786:) said:

How is one labeled bidah/haram and the other not?

if you apply the same framework to conclude taraweeh as bidah/haram, you will reach the same conclusion about zanjeer.

How come only Sayed Khamenei has spoke out against zanjeer? Why are the other ayotollahs silent?

Every legal or illegal act is determined by practice of Prophet (PBUHHP) and his pious successors. Prophet (PBUHHP) said: "First, middle and last of us is Muhammad (PBUHHP). In our traditions we have found that our Imams out of grief shed blood from their eyes. This is, in the context of Zanjeer Zani. However, as regards Tarraweeh Hazrat Umer was not successor to our Prophet.

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12 hours ago, 786:) said:

How is one labeled bidah/haram and the other not?

Would you kindly analyze for me the intention (neeyah) of these two acts? So that I can understand what is Taraweeh done for & what is Zanjeer done for.

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