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In the Name of God بسم الله
RepentantServant

Who has a higher status in the eyes of God

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14 hours ago, RepentantServant said:

Who has a higher status in the eyes of God, an Imam of Ahlul Bayt, or a Prophet of God & why?   And by Prophet, I mean all Prophets other than Rasool Allah. 

Sallam,

An Imam has a higher Status than prophethood. According to many Islamic teachings, anyway.

By the way, There were other Prophets that reached the imamate rank such as Prophet ibrahim AS.

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5 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

You guys don't actually believe Imams have higher status than Prophets do you? I thought that was just something Sunnis made up to make you look bad.

Some believe, some don’t. Same here, I thought Sunnis made it up, but actually it’s true.

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4 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

You guys don't actually believe Imams have higher status than Prophets do you? I thought that was just something Sunnis made up to make you look bad.

 
And when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’ (2:124)
 
Logically speaking, the Imams can’t be lower than the Prophets in status, because they are the successors of the greatest Prophet. Get it?
 
And there’s more evidence for this.
 
  1. That Jesus will pray behind ʾal-Imām ʾal-Ḥujjā output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png.

“Everyone who wants to look at Adam in his knowledge, Noah in his piety, Abraham in his perseverance (ḥilm), Moses in his awe, and Jesus in his worship should look at ʾAli bin Abʾi Ṭālib output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png.” (Tāfsir ʾal-Fāḵḫr ʾal-Rāzi, volume 8, page 90).

Narrated ʾAnās bin Mālik, he said: “There was a bird with the Prophet output-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png, so he said: “O’ God, send to me the most beloved of Your creatures to eat this bird with me.” So ʾAli output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png came and ate with him.” (Jamiʾ at-Tirmiḏhi, ḥādith 4087).

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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14 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:
 
And when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’ (2:124)
 
Logically speaking, the Imams can’t be lower than the Prophets in status, because they are the successors of the greatest Prophet. Get it?
 

Had Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said "I am making you an Imam" -full stop, then you would've had a point. But since He didn't and added "of mankind", I am of the belief that he was an Imam before too but only for his nation (there were other Prophets around at the same time). Hence, completing the tests leveled him up to an Imam of mankind. The emphasis is put incorrectly on only the word Imam (leader) when actually the emphasis should be on "leader of mankind".

If fools like Firaun and those that disbelieved can be called Imam in the Qur'an, then I'd like to think any Prophet sent and/or chosen by Allah is an Imam by default, a leader for his nation no doubt, and some for the whole of mankind.

As for the logical comment, I mean logically they can be lower in status than other Prophets also. Especially when Allah commands Muhammad (S) a number of times in the Qur'an to "follow the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth, he was not an associater..." and "Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend". Allah shows much regard for Abraham to the extent that Muhammad (S) is being told to follow Abraham's way.

Allah knows best.

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1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Had Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said "I am making you an Imam" -full stop, then you would've had a point. But since He didn't and added "of mankind", I am of the belief that he was an Imam before too but only for his nation (there were other Prophets around at the same time). Hence, completing the tests leveled him up to an Imam of mankind. The emphasis is put incorrectly on only the word Imam (leader) when actually the emphasis should be on "leader of mankind".

If fools like Firaun and those that disbelieved can be called Imam in the Qur'an, then I'd like to think any Prophet sent and/or chosen by Allah is an Imam by default, a leader for his nation no doubt, and some for the whole of mankind.

First of all, don’t try to interpret the holy book, because it’s none of our business.

1 hour ago, Jaane Rabb said:

As for the logical comment, I mean logically they can be lower in status than other Prophets also. Especially when Allah commands Muhammad (S) a number of times in the Qur'an to "follow the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth, he was not an associater..." and "Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend". Allah shows much regard for Abraham to the extent that Muhammad (S) is being told to follow Abraham's way.

I have no time to reply to all of this. But, what about the other traditions I posted?

The ummāh has an ijmāʾ that the person meant in the verse of mubāhala in the part that states, “ourselves and yourselves,” is Imam Ali.

Meaning that the Imam is at the same status of the Prophet.

 

Many muḵḫālif scholars even regard ʾal-Ḵḫiḍhr as being better than Mūsā...

 

Jābir bin Abdillāh said: “Alī is the lord of all people and only an unbeliever would doubt it.” (Idrīs, Uyūn, vol. 6, pp. 288-292, and Tāfḍhil, p. 35).

The Prophet said: “Alī is the best of people, and he who doubted [that] has disbelieved.” (Tāriḵḫ Dimāshq, vol. 23, pp. 474).

Other references:

  1. Tāriḵḫ Bāġhdad, vol. 7, pp. 433, and vol. 3, pp. 409.
  2. ʾal-Kāmil, vol. 4, pp. 10.
  3. ʾal-Faḍhāʾil, vol. 2, pp. 564, tradition 949. (ṣaḥiḥ).
  4. Tāriḵḫ Dimāshq, vol. 42, pp. 372 (ṣaḥiḥ).
  5. ʾal-Thuqāt, vol. 9, pp. 281. (ṣaḥiḥ).

Moreover, the fact that Isāʾ prays behind ʾal-Imām ʾal-Ḥujjā is enough for us.

Also...

“Whoever is my māwla, Alī is his māwla.”

All of the Prophets (obviously) do tāwalli of the Prophet, and so, according to this ḥādith, they also do tāwwali of Imam Ali.

“If God hadn’t created ʿAlī, nobody would have been worthy to become Fāṭima’s husband.”

This ḥādith (below) mentions that Imam Ali is:

  1. Leader of ʾal-muttāqin.
  2. Master of muslimin.
  3. Leader of ʾal-ġhurr ʾal-muḥājjalin.

Maʾrifāt ʿal-Ṣaḥābah, volume 3, page 1587, ḥādith (4002).

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-wWxbWKlf9Ao5f.thumb.jpg.9893f089f3dddc7917274d88e17f8bd5.jpg

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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1 hour ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

First of all, don’t try to interpret the holy book, because it’s none of our business.

Allah says:


"[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded."
(QS. Saad 38: Verse 29)


"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?"
(QS. Muhammad 47: Verse 24)

Why leave us with the Book if we aren't to read and reflect?

You take the mention of the word "Imam" as being a very lofty station, while I'm simply pointing out that Allah has used the word Imam for both good and bad leaders. And on other aspects too (scripture = Imam, believers praying to be Imam themselves). So I take Imam as a general word meaning leader.

Quote

what about the other traditions I posted?

I only trust the holy book as fact. Everything else is fallible.

Quote

Meaning that the Imam is at the same status of the Prophet.

Maybe, maybe not. In any case Imam Ali would have to follow the way of his Prophet who is following the way of Abraham.

Besides, didn't Imam Ali say that he was the slave of slaves of Rasulallah when someone asked him what is the comparison between him and Muhammad (S)? I will try to find the quote.

With regards to superiority between Prophets, the Qur'an says this:

"Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree..."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 253)

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the Prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant."
(QS. Al-Ahzaab 33: Verse 7)

These are interesting:

"Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you..."
(QS. Fussilat 41: Verse 43)

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], We make no distinction between any of His messengers. And they say, We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 285)

 

Quote

Jābir bin Abdillāh said: “Alī is the lord of all people and only an unbeliever would doubt it.” (Idrīs, Uyūn, vol. 6, pp. 288-292, and Tāfḍhil, p. 35).

I only take Allah as my lord:


"Say, Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things?..."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 164)

"Say, O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah. But if they turn away, then say, Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."
(QS. Aal-I-Imraan 3: Verse 64)

"Nor could he order you to take the angels and Prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims?"
(QS. Aal-I-Imraan 3: Verse 80)

"They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him."
(QS. At-Tawba 9: Verse 31)

Quote

Moreover, the fact that Isāʾ prays behind ʾal-Imām ʾal-Ḥujjā is enough for us.

I don't believe in the return of Isa as with Sheikh Suduq and another scholar whose name has escaped me.

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As for the logical comment, I mean logically they can be lower in status than other Prophets also. Especially when Allah commands Muhammad (S) a number of times in the Qur'an to "follow the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth, he was not an associater..." and "Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend". Allah shows much regard for Abraham to the extent that Muhammad (S) is being told to follow Abraham's way.

Let say that the person is following Abraham (عليه السلام) way, can it not mean that the person can go beyond it?

 

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Guest Pschological Warfare

Surah 37 Verses 79 - 83.

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ نُوحٍ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ {79}

[Shakir 37:79] Peace and salutation to Nuh among the nations.

 

وَإِنَّ مِنْ شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ {83}

[Shakir 37:83] And most surely Ibrahim followed his way.

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11 hours ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Many muḵḫālif scholars even regard ʾal-Ḵḫiḍhr as being better than Mūsā...

Also, with that line of thinking, we might as well conclude that Musa was the most superior of the Prophets since he was the only one to whom Allah spoke to directly.

And perhaps Khidr is also better than Imam Ali, since Khidr taught Dua Kumayl to Imam Ali.

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Can't be making extrapolations from fantasy. But has to be driven by Truth.

 

8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Let say that the person is following Abraham (عليه السلام) way, can it not mean that the person can go beyond it?

 

Maybe, maybe not. We need Allah to tell us otherwise we are just operating on assumption.

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Also, with that line of thinking, we might as well conclude that Musa was the most superior of the Prophets since he was the only one to whom Allah spoke to directly

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned it in Qur'an does not mean Musa (عليه السلام) was the only one who He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) spoke to. What is more greater than that is the Prophet Muhammad (saws) who reached to this stage: Qur'an 53:6-18.

 

Edited by Abu Nur

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned it in Qur'an does not mean Musa (عليه السلام) was the only one who He spoke to.

Again, it's a maybe maybe not. We have to go based on facts, not assumption because a maybe, maybe not doesn't get us anywhere.

But, I'll scale down on the comparison for the sake of debate; So Musa is better than Muhammad (S) because Musa was spoken to directly?

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There was another thread recently trying to compare the status of two praised and blessed personalities.

My response here would be the same as on that thread: the ambiya (عليه السلام) and the aimmah (عليه السلام) had a common mission and complemented each other rather than contradicting each other. The question of who is superior therefore has no relevance at all.

Wallahu a'lam 

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15 hours ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Logically speaking, the Imams can’t be lower than the Prophets in status,because they are the successors of the greatest Prophet. Get it?

15 hours ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

And when his Lord tested Abraham with certain words, and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’ (2:124)

So your saying all Imams had universal authority? Why does Allah say that Ibrahim (ع) is an Imam for mankind and in other verses he just says that they (other Prophets) are Imams? 

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15 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Had Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said "I am making you an Imam" -full stop, then you would've had a point. But since He didn't and added "of mankind", I am of the belief that he was an Imam before too but only for his nation (there were other Prophets around at the same time). Hence, completing the tests leveled him up to an Imam of mankind. The emphasis is put incorrectly on only the word Imam (leader) when actually the emphasis should be on "leader of mankind".

If fools like Firaun and those that disbelieved can be called Imam in the Qur'an, then I'd like to think any Prophet sent and/or chosen by Allah is an Imam by default, a leader for his nation no doubt, and some for the whole of mankind.

As for the logical comment, I mean logically they can be lower in status than other Prophets also. Especially when Allah commands Muhammad (S) a number of times in the Qur'an to "follow the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth, he was not an associater..." and "Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend". Allah shows much regard for Abraham to the extent that Muhammad (S) is being told to follow Abraham's way.

Allah knows best.

We're comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of persons. Shias do believe the imamat which is a divinely appointed leader is higher than prophethood. However, we don't believe that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or the other Imams(عليه السلام) were more virtuous than the Holy Prophet (sawas) , as he has the highest status amongst all mankind, including all the other Prophets and messenger (عليه السلام). Its not about comparing the person, its more of comparing their duty and roles in spreading the divine truth. 

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

How so? 

Musa received revelation through speaking with Allah directly.

Muhammad (S) received through intermediary.

2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer. 53:9

None of the Prophet expect Prophet Muhammad (saws) reached this stage.

But Allah is close to everyone; closer to than their jugular vein.

Anyway, I don't know what you're arguing over? The point I was simply making is that using extrapolations and analogies to prove ABC is superior to XYZ is based on assumption and pointless.

Rather, as quoted before, we as believers should probably not make any distinguish at all between any of Allah's servants. And let Allah be the One who handles superiority.

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], We make no distinction between any of His messengers. And they say, We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 285)

Fi Amanillah

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Anyway, I don't know what you're arguing over? The point I was simply making is that using extrapolations and analogies to prove ABC is superior to XYZ is based on assumption and pointless.

And I disagree with your statement.

Quote

But Allah is close to everyone; closer to than their jugular vein.

I clearly said stage not Prophet reached closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Edited by Abu Nur

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17 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

We're comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of persons. Shias do believe the imamat which is a divinely appointed leader is higher than prophethood. However, we don't believe that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or the other Imams(عليه السلام) were more virtuous than the Holy Prophet (sawas) , as he has the highest status amongst all mankind, including all the other Prophets and messenger (عليه السلام). Its not about comparing the person, its more of comparing their duty and roles in spreading the divine truth. 

Whatever you believe is fine as long as it can be backed up by the Qur'an and isn't derived through bizarre extrapolations and assumptions just to prove a spoon-fed belief.

The reason why you believe Imam is higher rank than Prophet is because of the verse related to Abraham, which I replied to in the message you quoted. (And maybe due to some hadith on the matter). In short, there's nothing in the Qur'an that testifies to Imam being a special rank since Allah uses the word Imam in various places including for bad Imams (that lead to the fire and that are of disbelief). So to me it proves Imam is a general word meaning leader. And what Abraham achieved was becoming a "leader of mankind" from being a "leader for his nation". That is my belief.

This is interesting:

In al-Kafi 1/176 #1 as authenticated by al-Majlisi from Zurarah: I asked Abu Ja`far (عليه السلام) “What’s the difference between a Messenger and a Prophet?” He replied: “A Prophet can only see (the angel) in his dreams and hear their voices but he cannot see the angel while awake. A messenger can hear the voice, see in the dream as well as while awake.” I asked:”What is the position of the Imam?” he (عليه السلام) said: “He hears the voice but does not see or observe the angel.” Then he recited the following verse of the Holy Qur'an: {Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddath whom We sent}.

Here is a summary of the differences between a Messenger, Prophet and Imam:

- Messengers: They see and hear the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
- Prophets: They see and hear the angel while asleep, but when they are awake they can only hear.
- Imams: They can only hear the angel, but they do not see the angel whether they are asleep or awake.

Clearly, based on that hadith, Imams aren't superior. Abraham was also seemingly demoted from someone who could see the angel to only hearing the angel!

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3 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Whatever you believe is fine as long as it can be backed up by the Qur'an and isn't derived through bizarre extrapolations and assumptions just to prove a spoon-fed belief.

This is what annoys me too much. When I talk to relatives about religion, they say such and such and when I ask for evidence, they just reply with: “it’s your belief”. Shi’a ahadith state that the one without wilayah will enter hell, while it takes so long to prove wilayah. Every verse that “proves” imamah can have so many counters. You can’t however say so about Prophethood. If you ask any Shi’a to prove this very important believe, they will just mingle a few verses with ghadeer. You cannot enter heaven without it, but there is no clear proof.

I am a Twelver but I still can’t comprehend how our great scholars consider wilayah as Usul-e-Deen.

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11 hours ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

Surah 37 Verses 79 - 83.

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ نُوحٍ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ {79}

[Shakir 37:79] Peace and salutation to Nuh among the nations.

وَإِنَّ مِنْ شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ {83}

[Shakir 37:83] And most surely Ibrahim followed his way.

Very good. Now, does Allah say anywhere in the Qur'an that He took Nuh as an intimate friend as He did with Abraham?

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On 9/12/2019 at 1:35 AM, RepentantServant said:

Who has a higher status in the eyes of God, an Imam of Ahlul Bayt, or a Prophet of God & why?   And by Prophet, I mean all Prophets other than Rasool Allah. 

The souls of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) were created 2000 years before Prophet Adam (عليه السلام). The names of the Ahlul Bayt are written on the grand throne in heaven where the angels circled around to ask Allah for forgiveness because they wrongly questioned Adam's creation.... 

You tell me who has a higher status... 

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45 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

The souls of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) were created 2000 years before Prophet Adam (عليه السلام). The names of the Ahlul Bayt are written on the grand throne in heaven where the angels circled around to ask Allah for forgiveness because they wrongly questioned Adam's creation.... 

You tell me who has a higher status... 

Wow. I feel like Allah’s intent was just to fool me. Shame on him.

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15 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

I only trust the holy book as fact. Everything else is fallible.

Everyone, stop debating with this person, he’s a Qurāʾnist.

1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Wow. I feel like Allah’s intent was just to fool me. Shame on him.

This ḥādith that Ali mentioned is in Maʾāni ʾal-Aḵḫbār, page 108.

image.thumb.png.16b025f9df3142c4b14d6f8ebc204d0b.png

There’s a whole chapter in Biḥār ʾal-Anwār about the Imams being more superior to the Prophets (except for Prophet Muḥāmmad), volume 26, page 267.

In it, there’s a ḥādith from ʾal-Imām ʾal-Ṣādiq in the tāfsir of this verse, “And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam,” (7:172), he said that the mithāq (covenant) that God took from them is [believing] in God, and in his Prophet’s prophethood, and Amir ʾal-Mūʾminin and the Imams’ Imāmah.

He said, “Am I not your Lord, and Muḥāmmad is your Prophet, and ʾAli is your Imam, and the guiding Imams your Imams?” They said, “Yes,” God said, “Lest you should say on the day of Resurrection,” meaning, lest you should say on the day of resurrection, “Indeed, we were of this unaware.”

Hz6og0d.jpg

In Yanābiʾ ʾal-Mawāddah, volume 2, page 402.

That ʾal-Imām ʾal-Ḥusāyn said:

The best of creations is my father, after my grandfather, thus I am the son of the two bests.

Te1S1Xg.png

Narrated ʾal-Tāmimi, from ʾal-Imām ʾal-Riḍhā, from the Prophet, that he said:

“You, O’ Ali, and your sons are the best of creations.”

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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13 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Everyone, stop debating with this person, he’s a Qurāʾnist.

This ḥādith that Ali mentioned is in Maʾāni ʾal-Aḵḫbār, page 108.

image.thumb.png.16b025f9df3142c4b14d6f8ebc204d0b.png

No chance this was fabricated right? Because ghulaat never existed. Only the Umayyads fabricated Hadith. Everyone else were angels.

You know there are hadith that get circulated from the mimbar of Rasool which state Imam Ali claimed he was the creator. Point is fabricators came from all sides. You can’t just point to a hadith without implementing some sort of vetting process.

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مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْشَاهِ، عَنْ أَبِي حَامِدٍ، عَنْ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ خَالِدٍ الْخَالِدِيِّ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدُ بْنِ صَالِحٍ التَّمِيمِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ حَاتِمٍ الْقَطَّانِ، عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ جَدِّهِ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ output-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png أَنَّهُ قَالَ فِي وَصِيَّةٍ لَهُ: يَا عَلِيُّ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ أَشْرَفَ عَلَى الدُّنْيَا فَاخْتَارَنِي مِنْهَا عَلَى رِجَالِ الْعَالَمِينَ، ثُمَّ اطَّلَعَ الثَّانِيَة فَاخْتَارَكَ عَلَى رِجَالِ الْعَالَمِينَ بَعْدِي، ثُمَّ اطَّلَعَ الثَّالِثَةَ فَاخْتَارَ الْأَئِمَّةَ مِنْ وُلْدِكَ عَلَى رِجَالِ الْعَالَمِينَ بَعْدَك، ثُمَّ اطَّلَعَ الرَّابِعَة فَاخْتَارَ فَاطِمَةَ عَلَى نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ

Narrated Muḥāmmad bin Ali bin ʾal-Shāh, from Abʾi Ḥāmid, from Aḥmād bin Ḵḫālid ʾal-Ḵḫālidi, from Muḥāmmad bin Ahmād bin Ṣāliḥ ʾal-Tāmimi, from his father, from Muḥāmmad bin Ḥātim ʾal-Qāṭṭan, from Ḥammād bin ʾAmr, from Jʾafar bin Muḥāmmad output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png, from his father output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png, from his grandfather output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png, from Ali bin Aʾbi Ṭālib output-onlinepngtools.png.781c65f14945b7d6d8f83dc70fd649fd.png, from the Prophetoutput-onlinepngtools.png.6e21bcd18525349cc5981ee6c057372d.png, that he said:

“O’ Ali, God looked at the Earth and chose me over the men of the creation, then looked a second [time] and chose you over the men of the creation after me, then looked a third [time] and chose the Imams from your children over the men of the creation after you, then looked a fourth [time] and chose Fatima over the women of the creation.”

(Biḥār ʾal-Anwār, volume 26, page 270-271).

Narrated Aḥmād bin Muḥāmmad, from ʾal-Abbas, from ʾIbn ʾal-Muġhirāh, from Abʾi Ḥāfṣ, from Abʾi Hārūn ʾal-Ābdi, from Abʾi Sāʾid al-Ḵḫudri, that the Prophet said:

“O’ Ali, God didn’t send a Prophet except that he called onto him to [believe] in your wilāyah, willing or unwilling.”

(Same source, page 280).

Narrated ʾIbn Māʾrūf, from Saʾādan bin Ṣābbaḥ ʾal-Māzani, from ʾal-Ḥarith bin Ḥāṣirah, from Ḥābbah ʾal-Ārani, that Imam Ali said:

“God presented my wilāyah on the people of the heavens and Earth, so those who accepted it, accepted it, and those who rejected it, rejected. When Yūnus rejected it, Allah imprisoned him in the belly of the fish till he accepted it.”

(Same source, page 282).

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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On 9/13/2019 at 4:31 PM, Ali~J said:

where the angels circled around to ask Allah for forgiveness because they wrongly questioned Adam's creation.... 

Apologies for going off topic, but how could angels wrongly question anybody? I thought angels worked by God's order and had no free will. Surely then they only question who their Creator commands them to.

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On 9/13/2019 at 7:02 PM, Simon the Canaanite said:

God presented my wilāyah on the people of the heavens and Earth, so those who accepted it, accepted it, and those who rejected it, rejected. When Yūnus rejected it, Allah imprisoned him in the belly of the fish till he accepted it.”

Now, now. That's not what the Qur'an says it? The fish swallowed him when he was thrown overboard, he was swallowed because he was blameworthy for not changing the people's mindsets he was entrusted with. Had he not have been praiseworthy of Allah then Allah would never have set him free until the end of time. Nowhere at all is the wilayah of Ali mentioned as a reason why Jonas, peace be upon him, was swallowed or freed by the fish. 

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40 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

Apologies for going off topic, but how could angels wrongly question anybody? I thought angels worked by God's order and had no free will. Surely then they only question who their Creator commands them to.

In a reliable tradition people asked Ja‘far as-Sadiq the origin of the circumambulation Holy Ka‘bah. Imam said, “When Allah decided to create Adam He told the Angels that He wished to appoint a Caliph on the Earth. The Angels said, “Would you appoint such a creature as shall spread corruption and bloodshed?” When they put this question there came a barrier between them and the Divine Luminescence. A curtain that did not exist before. They realized that Allah is infuriated at their blatant objection. They held consultations among themselves to find the best way of expiation. It was decided that nothing could be better than seeking shelter at the Divine Throne.

Thus they look refuge in the Holy Throne until the time Almighty accepted their repentance and removed the curtains between them and His splendor. Allah wanted the people to worship Him in the same manner, so he created the Holy Ka‘bah on the Earth and made incumbent on the people circle it. He created the al-Bayt al-Ma‘mur on the heavens. Every day 70000 Angels enter it. They do not return. They shall continue to enter it until the Resurrection Day.

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31 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

When Allah decided to create Adam He told the Angels that He wished to appoint a Caliph on the Earth. The Angels said, “Would you appoint such a creature as shall spread corruption and bloodshed?”

So Iblis rebelled and other angels rebelled, except the Qur'an only mentions Iblis rebelling. For example, if Iblis was given the chance to hide under the 'throne', would Allah have let them? The angels clearly rebelled the same but decided to hide rather than face Allah's punishment. 

It's just strange and significant something like this doesn't feature in the Qur'an, because if anything we should know that it wasn't just Iblis that got it wrong, others can get it wrong and so we should definitely, definitely avoid getting it wrong. When one person does a bad thing and gets caught we sometimes just shrug it off as unlucky, but when many get caught then it shows that the person in charge is thorough and a proper system is in place. Including this in the Qur'an would surely have reinforced Allah's thoroughness. I think Muslims often take Allah's thoroughness in jest, so maybe such a reinforcement might change that, if even just a little.

It just seems a little convenient if such a narration only appears to a community where accepting the authority of a leader figure is central to its belief system. If people within that community said 'no we don't accept this person is authorised by God to rule us', then someone could say 'ah well, Imam Ja'far has narrated that the angels had to hid under the throne for questioning God's decision to appoint a leader, just as you are doing now.' That would surely crush any rebellion, right?

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1 hour ago, aaaz1618 said:

Now, now. That's not what the Qur'an says it? The fish swallowed him when he was thrown overboard, he was swallowed because he was blameworthy for not changing the people's mindsets he was entrusted with. Had he not have been praiseworthy of Allah then Allah would never have set him free until the end of time. Nowhere at all is the wilayah of Ali mentioned as a reason why Jonas, peace be upon him, was swallowed or freed by the fish. 

When I first read that, I shook my head in disbelief. Such is the state of Muslims today, that they give little thought to the Qur'an and give hadith precedence over it. It's a shame, the brother seems well in-tuned with the world of hadith but it would appear he has abandoned the Qur'an. Next, they will tell you that Allah only made Hell for the the enemies of Wilayat-e-Ali.

I also don't know how one can take religion from a book compiled in 1100AH~ especially when many of the ahadith in it are chainless and sourced from unknown books. It has also attracted criticism from some scholars:

 

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