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In the Name of God بسم الله
Mortadakerim

Tafsir of surah 28:68

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34 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 

I've proven that you cannot prove hadith are required to follow from Qur'an only.

I understand these are your beliefs but I have my reasons for beleiving these hadith were completely made up.

1. This principle is false for me and most of logical thinking persons here. It is strongly rejected. we have already conducted such discussion about the Hagith Rejectors view.the link may be seen:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053897-hadith-rejectors-Muslim-hypocrites-etc/

2.  I do have my reasons of logical importance to take the view for confirmation of hadith, the Infallible sayings and its verification with Rijal and ultimately confirmation with the verses of Qur'an. instead of rejecting the hadith altogether for following the infallible or beating the drum here continuously that infallible thread comes through fallible thus it cannot be taken.

I have clarified my view with the possible extent for a logical person. To believe or not is to be taken by the relevant one.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salam,

Where does it say the Qur’an is sufficient for all religious matters.

Second, Allah said obey the Prophet (this is talking about us today too). How are you going to obey him?

Walaikum as salaam,

6:38

"...We have neglected nothing in the Book..."

6:89

And the day We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst them, and We shall bring thee as a witness against those. And We have sent down on thee the Book making clear everything, and as a guidance and a mercy, and as good tidings to those who surrender.

6:114-115

What, shall I seek after any judge but God? For it is He who sent down to you the Book well-distinguished; and those whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from thy Lord with the truth; so be not thou of the doubters.

Perfect are the words of thy Lord in truthfulness and justice; no man can change His words; He is the All-hearing, the All-knowing.

6:155-157

This is a Book We have sent down, blessed; so follow it, and be godfearing; haply so you will find mercy;

lest you should say, 'The Book was sent down only upon two parties before us, and we have indeed been heedless of their study';

or lest you say, 'If the Book had been sent down upon us, we had surely been more rightly guided than they.' Yet indeed a clear sign has come to you from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy; and who does greater evil than he who cries lies to God's signs, and turns away from them? We shall surely recompense those who turn away from Our signs with an evil chastisement for their turning away.

11:1

Alif Lam Ra. A Book whose verses are set clear, and then distinguished, from One All-wise, All-aware

12:111

In their Hadith is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it (Qur'an) is not a Hadith forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe.

7:52

And We have brought to them a Book that We have well distinguished, resting on knowledge, a guidance and a mercy unto a people that believe.

39:27-28

Indeed We have struck for the people in this Koran every manner of similitude; haply they will remember

Koran, wherein there is no crookedness; haply they will be godfearing.

69:43-46

A sending down (Qur'an) from the Lord of all Being.

Had he (messenger) invented against Us any sayings

We would have seized him by the right hand

then We would surely have cut his life-vein

--------------------------------------------------

You obey the Prophet by obeying the message he deliivered, the message of Allah.

If Qur'an is not  sufficient for all religious matters, then we are in contradiction to the above verses.

The Prophet only followed what is revealed and Allah only revealed to him Qur'an.

-------------------------------------------

 4:105

Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors

5:48

And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.

39:2

We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth; so worship God, making thy religion His sincerely.

79:23

Surely We have sent down the Koran on thee, a sending down;

-------------------------------------------------------

Allah did not send Hadith nor does Qur'an say he sent down Hadith.

55:2, 75:19

directly tell us Allah taught mankind Qur'an and is the teacher of it.

-------------------------------------------------

2:62

Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabaeans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness -- their wage awaits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them; neither shall they sorrow.

------

Those above are not following Muhammad's hadith or Qur'an yet they're righteous and deserving of reward? Why? Why isn't hadith and belief in Imama and Khalifa required on them? 

because those having nothing to do with Allah's message and faith and that is why they're not explicitly mentioned unless you add words and hadith to tie unrelated things to it.

So do Muslims needs additional beliefs to go to janna?  

No.

 

@Muslim2010 all of these verses for reference  and  yet your discussion you showed me... where many of you blame those who reject hadith and follow Qur'an outside the fold Islam.  Though I don't consider you and others of sects to be outside.

That's true sadness.

Edited by wmehar2

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56 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. This principle is false for me and most of logical thinking persons here. It is strongly rejected. we have already conducted such discussion about the Hagith Rejectors view.the link may be seen:

Show me from Qur'an if you're honest. That Qur'an says we require hadith in addition to it.

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Show me from Qur'an if you're honest. That Qur'an says we require hadith in addition to it.

Even if it is clear Qur'an verse where it says to follow what the Prophet (saws) says, you will always find people who will have different interpretation on matter such that they will ignore any hadith. The proof you will show will be only sufficient for you and my proof for myself.

What I find myself amazing is the companions and the family of Prophet Muhammad (saws), they did not stick only to Qur'an, but also followed the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his sayings (narrations). To base the religion on narrations is wrong of course, but having narration that supports Qur'an and is sahih is not something should be ignored.

Edited by Abu Nur

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11 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Even if it is clear Qur'an verse where it says to follow what the Prophet (saws) says, you will always find people who will have different interpretation on matter such that they will ignore any hadith. The proof you will show will be only sufficient for you and my proof for myself.

What I find myself amazing is the companions and the family of Prophet Muhammad (saws), they did not stick only to Qur'an, but also followed the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his sayings (narrations). To base the religion on narrations is wrong of course, but having narration that supports Qur'an and is sahih is not something should be ignored.

It is as you say.  We won't see eye to eye

You can make the Qur'an interpreted in anyway with any supplemental text. 

 

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

"...We have neglected nothing in the Book..."

 

This does not clearly reject ahadith. Indeed, Allah mentioned everything, without detail however.

First of all:

1. In surah 3:7 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says that there are verses that only He knows the interpretation of. So, could you please tell me what the point is of these mutashabihat, of which we don’t know the meaning? Why did Allah place them in this blessed Book if we don’t know it’s meaning?

2. The Qur'an says: “if you do not know, ask the People who have knowledge of the book”. The Qur’an is clear according to you, so why do we have to ask “The People of The Book”? If we do not know, we can read it ourselves.

3. And if you dispute, refer it to Allah and his Messenger (4:59). What is there to dispute dispute if everything is clear. Allah mentions two authorities who we can refer to, if Qur’an is sufficient, why didn’t he just say to us refer it to Allah.

4. What I want make clear is that if the people in the time of the Prophet could refer disputes to him, why would Allah not give us this right?

Edited by Mortadakerim

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Even if it is clear Qur'an verse where it says to follow what the Prophet (saws) says

Obeying the Messenger to Me is obeying the message he delivers.

Hadith are not the message in my view. 

The unchangeable Qur'an is

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18 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

It is as you say.  We won't see eye to eye

You can make the Qur'an interpreted in anyway with any supplemental text. 

 

One thing is amazing with Qur'an is that mostly it is simple to understand and it will make you to follow a guided way as long person is sincere to follow Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) way.

Edited by Abu Nur

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5 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Obeying the Messenger to Me is obeying the message he delivers.

Hadith are not the message in my view. 

The unchangeable Qur'an is

Yes, I know there are people who have such interpretation. What do you mean hadith is not a message? If it is not message, then what else it could be?

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36 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes, I know there are people who have such interpretation. What do you mean hadith is not a message? If it is not message, then what else it could be?

It is not a message from Allah.

Hadith can surely be a message but it's not from Allah. Otherwise he would have protected it like he promised he will protect Qur'an.

15:9

then they would not be respited. It is We who have sent down the Remembrance, and We watch over it.

Hence we have sects and splits and division among Muslims .

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Please, First prove to me the concept of the necessity of using hadith from Qur'an only if we're going to have a meaningful discussion.

Here are the evidences:

Surah Al-Jumua, Verse 2:
هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Apostle from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,
(English - Shakir)

Perhaps you may say that you don't really interested in learning wisdom, so here is another:

Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 21:
لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.
(English - Shakir)

Well, here too, it may be possible that you might not be interested in uswatun hasanah, so here is another:

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 59:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
(English - Shakir)

Right of obedience itself is a proof that every believer need to know the commands of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). How can one refer anything to Apostle if there is nothing from him? 

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Obedience to the Prophet is upon beleivers, not idoleters. 

And obedience to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is upon whom? Lets now see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said about believers:

Surah Yusuf, Verse 106:
وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُم بِاللَّهِ إِلَّا وَهُم مُّشْرِكُونَ

And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

 

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18 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

If you don't consider hadith as a source of religious text, how can you know how to offer prayers? How many rak'ah should one offer?

Brother, did you learn to pray salat from reading a hadith? Or did you learn just like how the millions of others learnt prior to any hadith ever existing? That is, through learning from one another. Salat wasn't a new practise prescribed by the Prophet but was well established by preceding Prophets. This old practice is a continuum of the message of Islam [which is not a new religion itself] but something past Prophets followed in submission as Muslims [2:136; 3:84]. Therefore, the stabilising factor of the current form of prayer amongst nearly all Muslims is not the hadith corpus, but rather a perpetual practical that has continued amongst its followers from generation to generation over the millennia. That is the only logical explanation as to why the Qur'an is silent on the prayer's method and content, which in my view doesn't now automatically validate the need for the hadith corpus. Otherwise, how to reconcile with the Quranic statement that nothing is left out of the Book [6:38]? By saying we NEED ahadith, is that not falsifying that statement?

In regards to the other rules regarding salat, you'll find many:

Quote
  • The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
  • A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ‘believers’ (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
  • Garments (7:31)
  • Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
  • That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
  • Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu’mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
  • Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
  • There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
  • There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39)
  • Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
  • Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
  • Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
  • A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
  • A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
  • The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
  • Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
  • The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
  • What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
  • Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
  • The tone of prayer (17:110)
  • There is a leader of prayer (4:102)

  Now, come to the hadith corpus. Can you show me one hadith that details how to pray from start from finish, including action, content, number of rakats, etc? One hadith.

Fi Amanillah

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13 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

 

@Muslim2010 all of these verses for reference  and  yet your discussion you showed me... where many of you blame those who reject hadith and follow Qur'an outside the fold Islam.  Though I don't consider you and others of sects to be outside.

 

That's true sadness.

No emotional words eliminate the difference  for following and obeying the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through the sunna, sayings and actions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  here,.

13 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Show me from Qur'an if you're honest. That Qur'an says we require hadith in addition to it.

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (3:7)

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

Thus the answer is complete. Following the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) only comes through his sunna, sayings and actions. Those who do not obey and follow the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) they are not believers in the light of above verses.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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12 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You can make the Qur'an interpreted in anyway with any supplemental text.

This supplemental text is written down sunna of the Prophet s.a.aw his sayings and actions for Muslims.

Edited by Muslim2010

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14 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Obeying the Messenger to Me is obeying the message he delivers.

Hadith are not the message in my view. 

The unchangeable Qur'an is

This does not clearly reject ahadith. Indeed, Allah mentioned everything, without detail however.

First of all:

1. In surah 3:7 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says that there are verses that only He knows the interpretation of. So, could you please tell me what the point is of these mutashabihat, of which we don’t know the meaning? Why did Allah place them in this blessed Book if we don’t know it’s meaning?

2. The Qur'an says: “if you do not know, ask the People who have knowledge of the book”. The Qur’an is clear according to you, so why do we have to ask “The People of The Book”? If we do not know, we can read it ourselves.

3. And if you dispute, refer it to Allah and his Messenger (4:59). What is there to dispute dispute if everything is clear. Allah mentions two authorities who we can refer to, if Qur’an is sufficient, why didn’t he just say to us refer it to Allah.

4. What I want make clear is that if the people in the time of the Prophet could refer disputes to him, why would Allah not give us this right?

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On 9/14/2019 at 11:51 AM, Logic1234 said:

Every verse of Qur'an Al-Hakim attracts my interest always Alhamdolillah! 

وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنْكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ كَمَا اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ وَلَيُمَكِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ دِينَهُمُ الَّذِي ارْتَضَىٰ لَهُمْ وَلَيُبَدِّلَنَّهُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ خَوْفِهِمْ أَمْنًا ۚ يَعْبُدُونَنِي لَا يُشْرِكُونَ بِي شَيْئًا ۚ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

Above is the Arabic text of the verse, may I know what has attracted your interest in this verse? For me this verse clearly talking about Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) because of two reasons 
a) because there is a hadith from our 4th Imam mentioning that "This verse refers to the period when the last of the holy Imams, Al Mahdi will rule the world. He will root out iniquity and polytheism for ever."
b) The Arabic highlighted text of this verse itself confirming the statement of our 4th Imam.

My interest peaked when Allah said He would give succession to those that believe and are righteous, as He did with those before. This for me was a rebuttal to the Shi'I belief that succession is only given to an infallible. This verse is further backed up by other verses in the Qur'an:

1. Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may see how you act. [10:14]

2. And they denied him, so We saved him and those with him in the ship and made them successors, and We drowned those who denied Our signs. Then see how was the end of those who were warned. [10:73]

3. And We wanted to confer favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them inheritors [28:5]

4. It is He who has made you successors upon the Earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be [the consequence of] his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss. [35:39]

5. But there came after them successors who neglected prayer and pursued desires; so they are going to meet evil - [19:59]

6. But if they turn away, [say], "I have already conveyed that with which I was sent to you. My Lord will give succession to a people other than you, and you will not harm Him at all. Indeed my Lord is, over all things, Guardian." [11:57]

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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5 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

This does not clearly reject ahadith. Indeed, Allah mentioned everything, without detail however.

First of all:

1. In surah 3:7 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says that there are verses that only He knows the interpretation of. So, could you please tell me what the point is of these mutashabihat, of which we don’t know the meaning? Why did Allah place them in this blessed Book if we don’t know it’s meaning?

2. The Qur'an says: “if you do not know, ask the People who have knowledge of the book”. The Qur’an is clear according to you, so why do we have to ask “The People of The Book”? If we do not know, we can read it ourselves.

3. And if you dispute, refer it to Allah and his Messenger (4:59). What is there to dispute dispute if everything is clear. Allah mentions two authorities who we can refer to, if Qur’an is sufficient, why didn’t he just say to us refer it to Allah.

4. What I want make clear is that if the people in the time of the Prophet could refer disputes to him, why would Allah not give us this right?

1. To test mankind. As you may have seen, people take the ambiguous verses and mislead.

2. You have to remember, the Qur'an was not given to the people as a compilation but was given piecemeal over 23 years. Muslims in that time didn't have the Qur'an in book form as we have it now. And not everyone was a memoriser of the Qur'an at that time either. So the one who didn't know off by heart, had to ask the one who did. Now, come to this day, despite having the Qur'an in complete, how many of us are in-tuned with what it says? Instead we have abandoned it [25:30].

3. Did we get the Qur'an directly from Allah? No right, we got it through the Prophet. So that is our go-to source for referring back to Allah, through the Prophet.

4. People at the time of the Prophet could meet and greet with him, do we have that right? Instead, we refer to the revelation of Allah brought to us by the noble Messenger [81:19]

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18 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

It is not a message from Allah.

Hadith can surely be a message but it's not from Allah. Otherwise he would have protected it like he promised he will protect Qur'an.

15:9

then they would not be respited. It is We who have sent down the Remembrance, and We watch over it.

Hence we have sects and splits and division among Muslims .

What do you mean it is not from Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), if hadith says Prophet said X about some verse, that itself a Knowledge received from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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Quote

Hence we have sects and splits and division among Muslims .

You and your kind is also sect/group who have own principles. You are people who don't take narrations of Prophet, rather you only follow Qur'an. 

Edited by Abu Nur

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22 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You and your kind is also sect/group who have own principles. You are people who don't take narrations of Prophet, rather you only follow Qur'an. 

I don't align myself with any group. 

Just because Muslims disagree over a meaning doesn't make us different from each other.

We are "Muslims" in my view who believe in the same book.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I don't align myself with any group. 

Just because Muslims disagree over a meaning doesn't make us different from each other.

We are "Muslims" in my view who believe in the same book.

 

 

You don't, but you are, even if you deny it. You call us Muslims but so easily say that we belong to sects.

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8 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (3:7)

 

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

Thus the answer is complete. Following the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) only comes through his sunna, sayings and actions. Those who do not obey and follow the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) they are not believers in the light of above verses.

wasalam

You're using a translation of 3:7 that I beleive to be incorrect.

The word by word breakdown:

 

Translation Arabic word Syntax and morphology
(3:7:1)
huwa
He
wordimage?id=6207 PRON – 3rd person masculine singular personal pronoun
ضمير منفصل
(3:7:2)
alladhī
(is) the One Who
wordimage?id=6208 REL – masculine singular relative pronoun
اسم موصول
(3:7:3)
anzala
revealed
wordimage?id=6209 V – 3rd person masculine singular (form IV) perfect verb
فعل ماض
(3:7:4)
ʿalayka
to you
wordimage?id=6210 P – preposition
PRON – 2nd person masculine singular object pronoun
جار ومجرور
(3:7:5)
l-kitāba
the Book,
wordimage?id=6211 N – accusative masculine noun
اسم منصوب
(3:7:6)
min'hu
of it
wordimage?id=6212 P – preposition
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun
جار ومجرور
(3:7:7)
āyātun
(are) Verses
wordimage?id=6213 N – nominative feminine plural indefinite noun
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:8)
muḥ'kamātun
absolutely clear -
wordimage?id=6214 ADJ – nominative feminine plural indefinite (form IV) passive participle
صفة مرفوعة
(3:7:9)
hunna
they (are)
wordimage?id=6215 PRON – 3rd person feminine plural personal pronoun
ضمير منفصل
(3:7:10)
ummu
the foundation
wordimage?id=6216 N – nominative feminine singular noun
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:11)
l-kitābi
(of) the Book,
wordimage?id=6217 N – genitive masculine noun
اسم مجرور
(3:7:12)
wa-ukharu
and others
wordimage?id=6218 CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N – nominative feminine plural noun
الواو عاطفة
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:13)
mutashābihātun
(are) allegorical.
wordimage?id=6219 ADJ – nominative masculine plural indefinite (form VI) active participle
صفة مرفوعة
(3:7:14)
fa-ammā
Then as for
wordimage?id=6220 REM – prefixed resumption particle
EXL – explanation particle
الفاء استئنافية
حرف تفصيل
(3:7:15)
alladhīna
those
wordimage?id=6221 COND – masculine plural conditional noun
اسم شرط
(3:7:16)

in
wordimage?id=6222 P – preposition
حرف جر
(3:7:17)
qulūbihim
their hearts
wordimage?id=6223 N – genitive feminine plural noun → Heart
PRON – 3rd person masculine plural possessive pronoun
اسم مجرور و«هم» ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:7:18)
zayghun
(is) perversity -
wordimage?id=6224 N – nominative masculine indefinite noun
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:19)
fayattabiʿūna
[so] they follow
wordimage?id=6225 RSLT – prefixed result particle
V – 3rd person masculine plural (form VIII) imperfect verb
PRON – subject pronoun
الفاء واقعة في جواب الشرط
فعل مضارع والواو ضمير متصل في محل رفع فاعل
(3:7:20)

what
wordimage?id=6226 REL – relative pronoun
اسم موصول
(3:7:21)
tashābaha
(is) allegorical
wordimage?id=6227 V – 3rd person masculine singular (form VI) perfect verb
فعل ماض
(3:7:22)
min'hu
of it,
wordimage?id=6228 P – preposition
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun
جار ومجرور
(3:7:23)
ib'tighāa
seeking
wordimage?id=6229 N – accusative masculine (form VIII) verbal noun
اسم منصوب
(3:7:24)
l-fit'nati
[the] discord
wordimage?id=6230 N – genitive feminine noun
اسم مجرور
(3:7:25)
wa-ib'tighāa
and seeking
wordimage?id=6231 CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N – accusative masculine (form VIII) verbal noun
الواو عاطفة
اسم منصوب
(3:7:26)
tawīlihi
its interpretation.
wordimage?id=6232 N – genitive masculine (form II) verbal noun
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular possessive pronoun
اسم مجرور والهاء ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:7:27)
wamā
And not
wordimage?id=6233 REM – prefixed resumption particle
NEG – negative particle
الواو استئنافية
حرف نفي
(3:7:28)
yaʿlamu
knows
wordimage?id=6234 V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb
فعل مضارع
(3:7:29)
tawīlahu
its interpretation
wordimage?id=6235 N – accusative masculine (form II) verbal noun
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular possessive pronoun
اسم منصوب والهاء ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:7:30)
illā
except
wordimage?id=6236 RES – restriction particle
أداة حصر
(3:7:31)
l-lahu
Allah.
wordimage?id=6237 PN – nominative proper noun → Allah
لفظ الجلالة مرفوع
(3:7:32)
wal-rāsikhūna
And those firm
wordimage?id=6238 REM – prefixed resumption particle
N – nominative masculine plural active participle
الواو استئنافية
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:33)

in
wordimage?id=6239 P – preposition
حرف جر
(3:7:34)
l-ʿil'mi
[the] knowledge,
wordimage?id=6240 N – genitive masculine noun
اسم مجرور
(3:7:35)
yaqūlūna
they say,
wordimage?id=6241 V – 3rd person masculine plural imperfect verb
PRON – subject pronoun
فعل مضارع والواو ضمير متصل في محل رفع فاعل
(3:7:36)
āmannā
"We believe
wordimage?id=6242 V – 1st person plural (form IV) perfect verb
PRON – subject pronoun
فعل ماض و«نا» ضمير متصل في محل رفع فاعل
(3:7:37)
bihi
in it.
wordimage?id=6243 P – prefixed preposition bi
PRON – 3rd person masculine singular personal pronoun
جار ومجرور
(3:7:38)
kullun
All
wordimage?id=6244 N – nominative masculine indefinite noun
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:39)
min
(is)
wordimage?id=6245 P – preposition
حرف جر
(3:7:40)
ʿindi
from
wordimage?id=6246 N – genitive noun
اسم مجرور
(3:7:41)
rabbinā
our Lord."
wordimage?id=6247 N – genitive masculine noun
PRON – 1st person plural possessive pronoun
اسم مجرور و«نا» ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:7:42)
wamā
And not
wordimage?id=6248 REM – prefixed resumption particle
NEG – negative particle
الواو استئنافية
حرف نفي
(3:7:43)
yadhakkaru
will take heed
wordimage?id=6249 V – 3rd person masculine singular (form V) imperfect verb
فعل مضارع
(3:7:44)
illā
except
wordimage?id=6250 RES – restriction particle
أداة حصر
(3:7:45)
ulū
men
wordimage?id=6251 N – nominative masculine plural noun
اسم مرفوع
(3:7:46)
l-albābi
(of) understanding.
7.pngwordimage?id=6252 N – genitive masculine plural noun
اسم مجرور
(3:8:1)
rabbanā
"Our Lord!
wordimage?id=6253 N – accusative masculine noun
PRON – 1st person plural possessive pronoun
اسم منصوب و«نا» ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:8:2)

(Do) not
wordimage?id=6254 PRO – prohibition particle
حرف نهي
(3:8:3)
tuzigh
deviate
wordimage?id=6255 V – 2nd person masculine singular (form IV) imperfect verb, jussive mood
فعل مضارع مجزوم
(3:8:4)
qulūbanā
our hearts
wordimage?id=6256 N – accusative feminine plural noun → Heart
PRON – 1st person plural possessive pronoun
اسم منصوب و«نا» ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:8:5)
baʿda
after
wordimage?id=6257 T – accusative time adverb
ظرف زمان منصوب
(3:8:6)
idh
[when]
wordimage?id=6258 T – time adverb
ظرف زمان
(3:8:7)
hadaytanā
You (have) guided us,
wordimage?id=6259 V – 2nd person masculine singular perfect verb
PRON – subject pronoun
PRON – 1st person plural object pronoun
فعل ماض والتاء ضمير متصل في محل رفع فاعل و«نا» ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
(3:8:8)
wahab
and grant
wordimage?id=6260 CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
V – 2nd person masculine singular imperative verb
الواو عاطفة
فعل أمر
(3:8:9)
lanā
(for) us
wordimage?id=6261 P – prefixed preposition lām
PRON – 1st person plural personal pronoun
جار ومجرور
(3:8:10)
min
from
wordimage?id=6262 P – preposition
حرف جر
(3:8:11)
ladunka
Yourself
wordimage?id=6263 N – genitive noun
PRON – 2nd person masculine singular possessive pronoun
اسم مجرور والكاف ضمير متصل في محل جر بالاضافة
(3:8:12)
raḥmatan
mercy.
wordimage?id=6264 N – accusative feminine indefinite noun
اسم منصوب
(3:8:13)
innaka
Indeed You,
wordimage?id=6265 ACC – accusative particle
PRON – 2nd person masculine singular object pronoun
حرف نصب والكاف ضمير متصل في محل نصب اسم «ان»
(3:8:14)
anta
You
wordimage?id=6266 PRON – 2nd person masculine singular personal pronoun
ضمير منفصل
(3:8:15)
l-wahābu
(are) the Bestower.
8.pngwordimage?id=6267 N – nominative masculine singular noun
اسم مرفوع

When I read it plainly:

---------------------------

He the one who revealed to you the book of it verses that are absolutely clear.   They are the  foundation of the book And others allegorical.                            Then as for those in their hearts perversity  they follow what allegorical of it seeking discord and seeking it's interpretation

-----------------------------

("It's interpretation" seems to refer to the perverted people who seek the allegorical parts of Qur'an meaning and they don’t on the clear foundation verses)

(If the clear verses are the foundation, reasoning tells me the "not clear" verses are NOT foundational.)

-----------------------

And not knows its interpretation except Allah

----------------------

(if no one knows its interpretation Except Allah, that means no human even Prophet knew the interpretation. So what hadith would helps us here? Does it matter since they are not foundational?)

---------------------------------

And those firm in knowledge will say we beleive in it, all from our Lord.

--------------------------

(Those who don't seek discord, per this verse without perverse hearts...and understand that Allah only knows the meanings)

------------------------------

And not will take heed except men understanding.

-------------------------------

(Men of understanding will take heed)

You left out it a key part only it the verse!!

"Our lord not deviate our hearts after you guided us and grant us from yourself mercy indeed you the bestower"

-----------------------------

This line is significant,  it doesn't say Muhammad guided us, it says Allah guided us! 

Completely different than translation you presented to me.

 

As for the rest of the verses you presented as evdience:

إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

--------------------

I don't contend the translation here, but they are not sufficient evidence to mean follow supplemental sayings and hadith/teachings of the Prophet.

 

If love Allah, follow Muhammad! Of course he's the Messenger , following Muhammad is following the message given t him by Allah. 

There's no indication of " follow  his explanations and record them for you need them to follow my guidance"

The next verse obey Alah and obey the Messenger,  I have a similar theme.

Obey Allah by obeying the Messenger because the Message (Qur'an) is to be obeyed.

Despite this,

Many Hadith are not commands , and you and I know this.  A great many of them can't be "obeyed" because they aren't explicit commands given by him which obeying a very stong point.

They're just things he did.

I can on more to elaborate. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You don't, but you are, even if you deny it. You call us Muslims but so easily say that we belong to sects.

Well it isn't me who decided that everyone are in sects.

I have to demonstrate that I belong with you . 

The same burden it seems to demonstrate the same to Sunnis.

I can't change the fact others see me different as I'm sure the same can be  sad the same... to of those who say they follow Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib.

You guys can't help if a group of jerk call you kafir and vice versa.

Sects doesn't need to mean "we are not the same", it can just mean "we beleive in the same message and God but have our approach, but we are all Muslims and love each other as Muslims "

I don't agree with takfirism coming from those who call themselves Quranists.  It's hypocritical.

Verses in the Qur'an tell us to refer to Allah and the Messenger,  with the Messenger not present with us, the Qur'an says don't dispute among each other that is best if we beleive in last day and Allah.  And Allah will settle our dipsute.

This way, we can still be united. 

But it seems we are afraid and fear.  That the actions of another group of Muslims bring them out of Islam and avoid, judge each other.  

There I fear we missed the clear parts of Qur'an by arguing over that which is not clear.

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@wmehar2

-"You're using a translation of 3:7 that I beleive to be incorrect."

Reply Your statement is disagreed.

-"And not knows its interpretation except Allah"

----------------------

(if no one knows its interpretation Except Allah, that means no human even Prophet knew the interpretation. So what hadith would helps us here? Does it matter since they are not foundational?)

---------------------------------

And those firm in knowledge will say we beleive in it, all from our Lord.

--------------------------

(Those who don't seek discord, per this verse without perverse hearts...and understand that Allah only knows the meanings)

Reply:

There are knowledgeable Prophets and Imams from Ahl alabayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who are firmly rooted in the knowledge. We do have the city of knowledge and gate to the city of knowledge mentioned in history of Islam to confirm the presence of these firmly rooted in knowledge personalities who know the interpretation of verses.

Would you please mention why the Qur'an is giving the title to those who are not knowledgeable enough to mention the interpretation of verses (your view) as firmly rooted in knowledge? A contradictory statement?

I like to quote the following verse as evidence regarding those who are firmly rooted in knowledge for interpretation of the verses of Qur'an:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا ۚ قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (13:42)

The above verse of Qur'an mentions the presence of those who has the knowledge of the complete book. Their presence confirms that firmly rooted in knowledge and those who have complete knowledge of book certainly know the interpretation of verses.

٣٤_٦    وَيَرَى ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا۟ ٱلْعِلْمَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ هُوَ ٱلْحَقَّ وَيَهْدِىٓ إِلَىٰ صِرَٰطِ ٱلْعَزِيزِ ٱلْحَمِيدِ

034:006 Those who have been given knowledge see that what has been sent down to you from your Lord is the truth and [that] it guides to the path of the All-mighty, the All-laudable.

Many verses of Qur'an mentions about those who have been given the knowledge, This confirms the presence of those knowledgeable persons who has been given knowledge by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they can provide interpretation of verses of Qur'an as well.

 

- "إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

--------------------

I don't contend the translation here, but they are not sufficient evidence to mean follow supplemental sayings and hadith/teachings of the Prophet."

Reply: Your claim is considered as baseless and  false thus rejected. As obeying and following the Prophet saw means to follow his sayings, actions and words that we have presently in written form coming through the Ahl albayt as of the Prophet sa.w and the companions.

wasalam

 

Edited by Muslim2010

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22 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Obeying the Messenger to Me is obeying the message he delivers.

For instance, lets see the two verses and kindly explain to me the message:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 10:
فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ

And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.
(English - Shakir)

What Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed here which He Himself kept secret? And then the following

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 67:
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

O Apostle! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.
(English - Shakir)

Again, you cannot escape from knowing the commands & directives of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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3 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

If love Allah, follow Muhammad! Of course he's the Messenger , following Muhammad is following the message given t him by Allah. 

Obey Allah by obeying the Messenger because the Message (Qur'an) is to be obeyed.

Despite this, Many Hadith are not commands , and you and I know this.  A great many of them can't be "obeyed" because they aren't explicit commands given by him which obeying a very stong point.

I like to quote here that as per your thought following the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) means to follow the Qur'an. This is like rotating in circle of misguidance. As both the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Qur'an are two different entities and the Prophet sunna, sayings and actions are different than that of Qur'an. Both of them are two different sources of guidance in the religion not one entity.

Thus taking the obeying the Prophet s,aw as alone verses of Qur'an is considered as peak of misguidance This serves to negate the verses of Qur'an where the Prophet s,aw has been mentioned as Role Model for the Muslims.

The sayings words and actions of the Prophet s,a.w have been persevered coming through the infallible Imams and the companions. There are means to verify their authenticity and finally any written text if against the verses of Qur'an is rejected.

For the words of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed. (Surat al-Najm: 3-4)

For actions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

You should accept whatever the Messenger gives you and abandon whatever he tells you to abandon. Have taqwa of Allah... (Surat al-Hashr: 7)

No, by your Lord, they are not believers until they make you their judge in the disputes that break out between them and then do not resist what you decide and submit themselves [to you] completely. (Surat an-Nisa`: 65)

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as authority in matters:

When Allah and His Messenger have decided something, no believing man or woman has a choice about [following or not following] it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His Messenger is clearly misguided. (Surat al-Ahzab: 36)

But if anyone opposes the Messenger after the guidance has become clear to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We will hand him over to whatever he has turned to, and We will roast him in Hell. What an evil destination! (Surat an-Nisa`: 115)

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Role Model

You have an excellent model in the Messenger of Allah, for all who put their hope in Allah and the Last Day and remember Allah much. (Surat al-Ahzab :21)

.......others may be mentioned

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

@wmehar2

-"You're using a translation of 3:7 that I beleive to be incorrect."

Reply Your statement is disagreed.

-"And not knows its interpretation except Allah"

----------------------

(if no one knows its interpretation Except Allah, that means no human even Prophet knew the interpretation. So what hadith would helps us here? Does it matter since they are not foundational?)

---------------------------------

And those firm in knowledge will say we beleive in it, all from our Lord.

--------------------------

(Those who don't seek discord, per this verse without perverse hearts...and understand that Allah only knows the meanings)

Reply:

There are knowledgeable Prophets and Imams from Ahl alabayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who are firmly rooted in the knowledge. We do have the city of knowledge and gate to the city of knowledge mentioned in history of Islam to confirm the presence of these firmly rooted in knowledge personalities who know the interpretation of verses.

Would you please mention why the Qur'an is giving the title to those who are not knowledgeable enough to mention the interpretation of verses (your view) as firmly rooted in knowledge? A contradictory statement?

I like to quote the following verse as evidence regarding those who are firmly rooted in knowledge for interpretation of the verses of Qur'an:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا ۚ قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book. (13:42)

The above verse of Qur'an mentions the presence of those who has the knowledge of the complete book. Their presence confirms that firmly rooted in knowledge and those who have complete knowledge of book certainly know the interpretation of verses.

٣٤_٦    وَيَرَى ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا۟ ٱلْعِلْمَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ هُوَ ٱلْحَقَّ وَيَهْدِىٓ إِلَىٰ صِرَٰطِ ٱلْعَزِيزِ ٱلْحَمِيدِ

034:006 Those who have been given knowledge see that what has been sent down to you from your Lord is the truth and [that] it guides to the path of the All-mighty, the All-laudable.

Many verses of Qur'an mentions about those who have been given the knowledge, This confirms the presence of those knowledgeable persons who has been given knowledge by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they can provide interpretation of verses of Qur'an as well.

 

- "إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

--------------------

I don't contend the translation here, but they are not sufficient evidence to mean follow supplemental sayings and hadith/teachings of the Prophet."

Reply: Your claim is considered as baseless and  false thus rejected. As obeying and following the Prophet saw means to follow his sayings, actions and words that we have presently in written form coming through the Ahl albayt as of the Prophet sa.w and the companions.

wasalam

 

I'm sorry we have to agree to disagree brother. 

13:43

Your translation provided I agree with but you interpret it differently. 

Having knowledge of a book is not the same as having knowledge to decipher a book. Quite literally  in my opinion..

I beleive the meaning ... is more simple.

Example. I have knowledge of the Bible but I'm not an expert.  The verse youre using I beleive refers to Those Christians and Jews etc. Who have knowledge of the book , and when they see the message since the knowledge of the book was sent to them before... they will recognize Qur'an and accept it. Because they were a people who were sent knowledge and messengers. 

Quite fitting with 34:6 as you posted 

"...see that what has been sent down to you from your Lord is the truth and [that] it guides to the path of the All-mighty, the All-laudable."

As for your rejection of my reply concerning what obey the Prophet means,  that's okay.  You assume obeying the Prophet means obeying his sayings without Qur'an explicitly telling you that's what that means.

And I assume that isn't what it means.

 

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43 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The sayings words and actions of the Prophet s,a.w have been persevered coming through the infallible Imams and the companions. There are means to verify their authenticity and finally any written text if against the verses of Qur'an is rejected

This is not proven.

However we cannot reach consenus. The verses you referred to after I see as referring to the revelation of Qur'an not hadith of Prophet.

Because we divide on how we see this we cannot see eye to eye

 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

For instance, lets see the two verses and kindly explain to me the message:

Surah An-Najm, Verse 10:
فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ

And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.
(English - Shakir)

What Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed here which He Himself kept secret? And then the following

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 67:
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

O Apostle! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.
(English - Shakir)

Again, you cannot escape from knowing the commands & directives of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

They are the Qur'an. That is what I beleive.

Nothing is left out of Qur'an. That is the only way a contradictory is avoided.

 

 

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8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

They are the Qur'an. That is what I beleive.

That's why we say Prophet & Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be upon them) are Qur'an e Natiq (speaking Qur'an) within them selves.

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

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9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

They are the Qur'an. That is what I beleive.

Nothing is left out of Qur'an. That is the only way a contradictory is avoided.

 

Salam for just relying on Qur'an you must receive commands from Allah that for that you must be a Prophet that is impossible or have divine knowledge that you don't have it only Imam of time has this divine knowledge that he is Imam Mahdi (aj) that is in contact through his deputies as Shia marjas .

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On 9/14/2019 at 7:24 PM, wmehar2 said:

Obedience to the Prophet is upon beleivers, not idoleters. 

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent him as mercy for believers? Or did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent him towards the believers of Macca? 

:D I don't know why you're running away from accepting facts!

 

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On 9/15/2019 at 8:56 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Or did you learn just like how the millions of others learnt prior to any hadith ever existing?

I was taught how to offer prayers by my father when I was 9 or 10 years of age. Then I saw people offer prayers differently, some open their hands while some with closed hands. Some recite bismillah loudly some don't even bother to recite bismillah or some recite it in low voice. And I observed that there were many differences. So the question arise in my mind how did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) offered the prayers? And this question as well as others forced my to look into the hadith and verify whether I am offering prayers correctly or not. 

So yes, I have indeed learned from hadith of Imam as my father who taught me how to offer prayers, once gave me the reference of that hadith. 

 

On 9/15/2019 at 8:56 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Salat wasn't a new practise prescribed by the Prophet but was well established by preceding Prophets.

Yes, I know how Jews & Christians offer prayers. I think you can observe the difference on your own. 

 

On 9/15/2019 at 8:56 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

That is the only logical explanation as to why the Qur'an is silent on the prayer's method and content, which in my view doesn't now automatically validate the need for the hadith corpus.

I beg to differ brother, this is not the "Only logical explanation". In fact this explanation itself seems illogical, keeping in view the verses of Qur'an. And I can quote many verses to show you that we have been commanded to do the itteba' of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has sent him as teacher as one of his mission is to teach us the book & the wisdom. He is the one who himself is mentioned as "dhikr" in Qur'an, he has taught us how to offer prayers. 

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20 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

My interest peaked when Allah said He would give succession to those that believe and are righteous, as He did with those before. This for me was a rebuttal to the Shi'I belief that succession is only given to an infallible.

:) Emaan is a thing about which only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows whether it is perfect in anyone's heart or not. We humans cannot know the secrets of the hearts. That's why we recite this in our prayers:

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ 

We are not asking for the path of every believer, instead we are requesting for the path of those upon whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed favors, neither He got angered on them nor they went astray. So this is the criteria, secondly, we (all believers) have been commanded to be with "Sadiqeen". Isn't it strange that every believer is supposed to be a Sadiq, but this verse is an evidence that not every believer is a Sadiq. Or there are some among us who are certified sadiqeen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), specifically those who went with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for cursing the "Kadibeen" in Mubahila.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ اتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَكُونُواْ مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

I think these two verses are sufficient, although I can quote many but because of time shortage I am not going into the possible meanings of word "Khalaf", "Khalifa" & "yastakhlaf" & "istakhlaf".


 

 

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4 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent him as mercy for believers? Or did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent him towards the believers of Macca? 

:D I don't know why you're running away from accepting facts!

I  fear it's you who runs away from certain facts while disregarding others. :(

------

21:107

We have not sent thee, save as a mercy unto all beings

 

--------

What does the above verse say?  Does it say we sent you to rule over mankind, to give commands and to be obeyed by mankind?!

On 9/14/2019 at 3:04 PM, Cool said:

Right of obedience itself is a proof that every believer need to know the commands of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). How can one refer anything to Apostle if there is nothing from him? 

Even here one of you said "right of obedience " is on believers.   

2:2-5

That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing

who believe in the Unseen, and perform the prayer, and expend of that We have provided them;

who believe in what has been sent down to thee and what has been sent down before thee, and have faith in the Hereafter;

those are upon guidance from their Lord, those are the ones who prosper

-----

The book isn't for those not conscious of God .

It's to believers who received and accepted the messages before and will accept again.

it's a guidance for those that fit that criteria.  Those not conscious of Allah there is no guidance here for them. 

--------

Qur'an 88:21-23

Then remind them! Thou art only a reminder;

thou art not charged to oversee them.

But he who turns his back, and disbelieves,

God shall chastise him with the greatest chastisement

------

I think you're mixing metaphors.  In addition to above. ... we all know  that "There is no compulsion in religion"

And there are people among the Ahl Kitab who receive their reward from what they earned with Allah, protected from Hell fire. They did not obey necessarily the Prophet.

This is indisputable evidence that the world is not charged to obey Command of Muhammad from Qur'an.

"Though art only a reminder"....

not a sultan. This Is repeated  throughout the Qur'an.

 

Edited by wmehar2

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