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In the Name of God بسم الله
Mortadakerim

Tafsir of surah 28:68

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Salam,

What is the explanation of this verse:

And thy Lord creates what He wills and chooses; they have no right to choose; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate! (28:68).

”And he chooses”, what does he choose? “They have no right to choose”, what can’t they (mankind) not choose?

Please provide evidence, if possible

wasalam

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Alaikas Salaam,

ابن شهر آشوب: عن علي بن الْعد عن شعبة عن حْاد بن سلمة عن أنس قال النبي صصلى الله عليه و آله
آدم من طي كيف شاء ثُ قال: وَ يَخْتارُ. إن الله تعالَ اختارني و أهل بيتِ على جَيع الخلق
Ibn Shehr Ashub, from Ali Bin Al-Ja’ad, from Sha’bat, from Hamad Bin Salmat, from Anas who said,
‘The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that: ‘Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Created Adam from clay howsoever He Desired to’. Then He Said: and Chooses (whoever He so Desires to) [28:68]. And He did Choose. Allah the Exalted Chose me and the People of my Household over all the creatures.


عانتجبنا عجعلنِ الرسول و جعل علي بن أبِ طالب الوصي ثُ قال: ما كانَ لََمُُ الخِْيَ رَةُ يعنِ ما جعلت للعباد أن يختاروا و
لكنِ أختار من أشاء. عأنا و أهل بيتِ صفوة الله و خيرته من خلقه ثُ قال: سُبْاانَ اللَّهِ يعنِ تنزيها لله عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ به كفار
.» مكة
He Chose us, and Made me the Rasool, and Made Ali Bin Abu Talib as the successor, then Said: The choosing was not for them - Meaning “I did not Allow it for the servants that they should be choosing, but I Choose whomsoever I Desire to”. Thus, I and the People of my Household are the (Chosen) Elites of Allah, and the best of His Creatures. Then He Said: Glorious is Allah – it is an abhorrence of Allah from what they are associating [28:68] – the Kafirs of Makkah’.

(Al-Manaqib 1:256)

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16 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Alaikas Salaam,

ابن شهر آشوب: عن علي بن الْعد عن شعبة عن حْاد بن سلمة عن أنس قال النبي صصلى الله عليه و آله
آدم من طي كيف شاء ثُ قال: وَ يَخْتارُ. إن الله تعالَ اختارني و أهل بيتِ على جَيع الخلق
Ibn Shehr Ashub, from Ali Bin Al-Ja’ad, from Sha’bat, from Hamad Bin Salmat, from Anas who said,
‘The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that: ‘Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Created Adam from clay howsoever He Desired to’. Then He Said: and Chooses (whoever He so Desires to) [28:68]. And He did Choose. Allah the Exalted Chose me and the People of my Household over all the creatures.


عانتجبنا عجعلنِ الرسول و جعل علي بن أبِ طالب الوصي ثُ قال: ما كانَ لََمُُ الخِْيَ رَةُ يعنِ ما جعلت للعباد أن يختاروا و
لكنِ أختار من أشاء. عأنا و أهل بيتِ صفوة الله و خيرته من خلقه ثُ قال: سُبْاانَ اللَّهِ يعنِ تنزيها لله عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ به كفار
.» مكة
He Chose us, and Made me the Rasool, and Made Ali Bin Abu Talib as the successor, then Said: The choosing was not for them - Meaning “I did not Allow it for the servants that they should be choosing, but I Choose whomsoever I Desire to”. Thus, I and the People of my Household are the (Chosen) Elites of Allah, and the best of His Creatures. Then He Said: Glorious is Allah – it is an abhorrence of Allah from what they are associating [28:68] – the Kafirs of Makkah’.

(Al-Manaqib 1:256)

Thank you!

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One thing I've learnt in my journey is that there is sectarian bias applied to Quranic translations. Not essentially all verses, but many of the important ones.

So I tend to read the different translations available for when I'm researching a particular verse. These sites are handy for that purpose.

http://Qur'an.wwpa.com/page/verse-28-68

https://www.islamawakened.com/Qur'an/28/68/default.htm

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When there's a hadith coming from an infallible, there's no sectarian bias. No one knows Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) book better than Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny (عليهم اسلام). 

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The hadith is coming through a fallible cable. Doesn't matter if there's an infallible's name at the end of the chain. Hadith is only as good as its transmitters, hence its a fallible source. No hadith can be claimed to be 100% word of the infallible, including sahih ones.

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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2 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

When there's a hadith coming from an infallible, there's no sectarian bias. No one knows Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) book better than Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny (عليهم اسلام). 

You indisputably cannot prove it came from infallible.  That is an assumption and therefore these are your beliefs.

In addition burden of proof a being is infallible must be presented.  But we'll likely differ here in beliefs . You accept hadith as a source of religious text where as I don't so well never come to a consenus.

If you go to verse 64 of this chapter, it becomes evident the verse in question is alluding to those who associated others (animate and inanimate ) with God.  On the day of judgement who will call their associates ?  Who will come ?

The Qur'an says no one will come and it will be a dark day for those who called on associates of God. Those who believed, worked hard did righteous will prosper.

Then the verse: 

Thy Lord creates whatsoever He will and He chooses, they have not the choice. Glory to God! High be He and exalted above THAT THEY ASSOCIATE .

Clearly it's talking about those people  who attempted to create or invent gods and made up associates. They chose their associates they created. "They have not the choice" is still referring to those who associated others with God .  They have no choice in who their creator is and that Is evidenced on the day of judgement :

28:64

it shall be said, Call now upon your associates! And they will call upon them, but they shall not answer them, and they shall see a chastisement, if they have been guided!

Because "He" creates and "He" chooses what he creates. Per Verse 68.

The hadith Is likely inauthentic as it has nothing to do with the topic and is out of place of context.

This hadith did not come from Ahlul Bayt, or the Prophet.   It is contradictory. 

@Mortadakerim I hope this answers your questions

Edited by wmehar2
Clarity

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You indisputably cannot prove it came from infallible.  That is an assumption and therefore these are your beliefs.

And you can prove it did not come from Infallible? It would be your assumption and your beliefs too?

Edited by Abu Nur

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5 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

The hadith is coming through a fallible cable. Doesn't matter if there's an infallible's name at the end of the chain. Hadith is only as good as its transmitters, hence its a fallible source. No hadith can be claimed to be 100% word of the infallible, including sahih ones.

And Qur'an is different from hadith in the way of transmitting? It also is moving from fallible cables. In the early time they even were burning verses because they though some of the Qur'an works have some Tahrif on it.

Edited by Abu Nur

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8 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

So in the end according to you, everything is just beliefs? The events of past cannot be proven but only have belief on them?

My reality can't be imposed on others. There can be truths I'm simply not aware of.

 

As of now per what I've read in Qur'an those are my beliefs. 

I'm not stating everything CAN'T be  proven from the past.

I'm stating hadith authenticity can't 100% be authenticated. Even so there's much to prove and they don't fit my criteria of authentic nor sensible.

But I accept everyone who calls themselves Muslims as brothers and sisters in faith granted they're not crazy.

Qur'an says discuss matters of religion in a good way and whatever we differ on Allah will settle on the final day. But we shouldn't divide or fight each other.

Edited by wmehar2

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10 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

As of now per what I've read in Qur'an those are my beliefs. 

I'm not stating everything CAN'T be  proven from the past.

I'm stating hadith authenticity can't 100% be authenticated. Even so there's much to prove and they don't fit my criteria of authentic nor sensible.

But I accept everyone who calls themselves Muslims as brothers and sisters in faith granted they're not crazy.

Qur'an says discuss matters of religion in a good way and whatever we differ on Allah will settle on the final day. But we shouldn't divide or fight each other.

Saying that hadith authenticity can't 100% be authenticated, does not imply that we can reject all them together. I don't understand, what kind of criteria person have to reject them all? How confident they can be with Qur'an but with widely reported hadith's they reject.

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 what can’t they (mankind) not choose?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chooses whatever He chooses and by His choice when He gives Human-being the ability to choose, it is by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will either to accept their choice or not, so again It is He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who choose. So everything is by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) choice.

Edited by Abu Nur

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

And Qur'an is different from hadith in the way of transmitting? It also is moving from fallible cables. In the early time they even were burning verses because they though some of the Qur'an works have some Tahrif on it.

The difference being that one Allah has protected from any falsehood approaching it and thus is infallible, while the other is the collection of man filled with forgeries, contradictions and falsehood.

If hadith were paramount to the Quranic discourse then there should have been a golden hadith book attached to the Qur'an that is accepted by all. But there's not and every major sect has their own collection.

I agree with Tabatabai that the Qur'an can explain itself through linking verses and meditation. Afterall, Allah says to reflect upon the verses.

As to what they were doing with regards to burning verses, etc. Anything they did or didn't do was with the permission of Allah. In the end it is my solid belief that the Qur'an we have today is the complete, unchanged article in the order Allah willed. It is the only infallible source available today. The only point of reference for ascertaining the truth. What else is there?

Scholars admit themselves that there's not a single chapter in the books of fiqh that don't have a contradiction.

Ayatullah Brujerdi (Taraif al-Maqal 2:380):
"To believe in the authenticity of the narrations reported by the Muhammads is impossible, especially with the reports of weak narrators among them. Rather, the weak are far more (than the authentic), whereas the authentic ones in those books are like the white hair on a black cow."

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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The difference being that one Allah has protected from any falsehood approaching it and thus is infallible, while the other is the collection of man filled with forgeries, contradictions and falsehood.

I'm talking about the transmitting of such a knowledge. Not all transmitting of Qur'an means it must be 100% correct and infallible. We know very well of early time how some of people have it wrongly. Yes Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect it and made sure that we ended up with one correct one. But it is was the same way how the narrations of Prophet Muhammad (saws) was spreaded, trough the fallibles wires. It does not necessitate that such a narration is filled with forgeries, contradiction and falsehood, it actually can be pure truthful.

Quote

If hadith were paramount to the Quranic discourse then there should have been a golden hadith book attached to the Qur'an that is accepted by all. But there's not and every major sect has their own collection.

There are narrations that are accepted by all. 

Quote

Scholars admit themselves that there's not a single chapter in the books of fiqh that don't have a contradiction.

Ayatullah Brujerdi (Taraif al-Maqal 2:380):
"To believe in the authenticity of the narrations reported by the Muhammads is impossible, especially with the reports of weak narrators among them. Rather, the weak are far more (than the authentic), whereas the authentic ones in those books are like the white hair on a black cow."

How can they be perfect when they are fallible's work? Sometimes Scholars disagree with each other, that is normal.

Edited by Abu Nur

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Saying that hadith authenticity can't 100% be authenticated, does not imply that we can reject all them together. I don't understand, what kind of criteria person have to reject them all? How confident they can be with Qur'an but with widely reported hadith's they reject.

It's just me personally.  I am rejecting them, though perhaps there's potential  for some to be authentic and real.  But I don't personally believe there's enough authenticity that we should govern people and build laws into government with them . Especially deriving punishments to people.  Or judge others.

Qur'an tells me it is sufficient and clear. So I feel comfortable with it.

My criteria is that just because transmitters are consistent with others doesn't improve a narrations capacity for authenticity . There's other information and details that need accounting. Reputations of transmitters and narrators are also dubious because they're established from Hadith themselves  ...... hadith giving itself credibility instead of God , this is creating a self imploding straw house ... I'm not comfortable with that .

Hadith are strings of information that are missing great amounts of detail.  Time of day, context of situation,  moods of individuals, facial expressions,  events occurring immediately before  after, date/time etc etc. 

Some hadith contradict Qur'an but they're graded as sahih for some reason.  

They were compiled hundreds of years after the Prophets death, and preserved by fallible beings after Imams.  There's too much risk in question for me .

We shouldn't  risk following other than what Allah sends down, risk following what forefather's  did. We're forbidden from doing so. Lest we disobey Qur'an. 

The followers of ibrahim, isa, musa etc  didnt have Prophet Muhammad's sunnah so how did they get by?

People ask how to pray this and that when verse 3:113 discusses  non Muslim people of book who pray and bow at night reciting verses , and having reward being righteous.  They didn't pray to Muhammad's sunnah.  

Other verses like these  prove to me we aren't lost without hadith. 

Allah says Qur'an is sufficient. If we're lost without hadith then we assume a contradiction in Qur'an. Which says it is enough and complete.

I don't see evidence in Qur'an supporting hadith and that we NEED them.  I see the opposite.

These are my personal criterias. 

Its cool if others feel different. But the way I see it were all Muslim and should be united despite our differences.

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10 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

The hadith is coming through a fallible cable. Doesn't matter if there's an infallible's name at the end of the chain. Hadith is only as good as its transmitters, hence its a fallible source. No hadith can be claimed to be 100% word of the infallible, including sahih ones.

Salamun Alaikum, 

Brother, do you have any doubt on God's right to choose a Prophet or an Imam?

Interestingly, the very next verse mentions this:

وَرَبُّكَ يَعْلَمُ مَا تُكِنُّ صُدُورُهُمْ وَمَا يُعْلِنُونَ
[Shakir 28:69] And your Lord knows what their breasts conceal and what they manifest.
[Pickthal 28:69] And thy Lord knoweth what their breasts conceal, and what they publish.
[Yusufali 28:69] And thy Lord knows all that their hearts conceal and all that they reveal.

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7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Not all transmitting of Qur'an means it must be 100% correct and infallible. We know very well of early time how some of people have it wrongly.

If what they were transmitting was inauthentic, then it's not the Qur'an but falsehood. Only the truth can be authentic. And the Qur'an is the truth.

Quote

Yes Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect it and made sure that we ended up with one correct one. But it is was the same way how the narrations of Prophet Muhammad (saws) was spreaded, trough the fallibles wires. It does not necessitate that such a narration is filled with forgeries, contradiction and falsehood, it actually can be pure truthful.

Sorry, I disagree. Again, the difference between the Qur'an and Hadith is that Allah's hand was behind only one of them. The other is a spaghetti of truth and falsehood.

Quote

There are narrations that are accepted by all.

Let's be honest, you only accept the hadith from other schools which agree with your view.

Quote

How can they be perfect when they are fallible's work? Sometimes Scholars disagree with each other, that is normal.

Hurr al-Amili states in Wasa’il ash-Shia:
1) The science of rijal (men) should not be used.
2) The science of rijal in shi’ism was a recent innovation, and elsewhere he states that it was invented because of the Ahlus-Sunnah’s continual criticism of the Shias for not having and following a system for deriving laws from ahadith.
3) If the system was actually applied, very few, if any, Shia ahadith would prove to be sahih (authentic), Hasan (good) or muwathaq (trusted) – and the entire Shia collection of hadith would prove to be weak.

Interestingly, Al-Kulayni in his introduction to Al-Kafi also states that no one can apply any system to the words of the infallible, and that the only system that should be followed is:
1) What is not in opposition to the Qur'an (ironic, as he believed in tahreef)
2) Opposing the people, I.e. the Ahlus-Sunnah.

Ja’far al-Subhani says in al-Rasael al-Arba’ah:
When we read the two books (of Hadith): Wasael al-Shia and Mustadrak al-Wasael for example, we see that there is no chapter or Fiqhi section which is free from conflicting narrations, this has caused some of those who converted to the Imami Madhab to leave it.

The teacher of Shaikh Tusi is said to have left Shiaism as reported in Rasael fi Dirayat al-Hadith by Abu al-Fadl al-Babili and Tahtheeb al-Ahkam:
Then he (al-Tusi) mentions about his teacher Abu al-Hassan al-Harouni al-‘Alawi that he used to believe in the truth (Shia Madhab), and that he took Imamah as his religion, but he left it when he became confused because of the conflicting narrations, and he abandoned the Madhab.

Yusuf al-Bahrani says in al-Hadaeq al-Nadirah:
Only a small amount of the rulings of the religion were known for sure, because their narrations were mixed with the narrations of Taqqiyah, as was admitted by Thiqat al-Islam Muhammad bin Ya’aqoub al-Kulayni may Allah fill his grave with light in his collection al-Kafi.

At this point, it's clear that it's all just based on guesswork.

 

4 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salamun Alaikum, 

Brother, do you have any doubt on God's right to choose a Prophet or an Imam?

Interestingly, the very next verse mentions this:

وَرَبُّكَ يَعْلَمُ مَا تُكِنُّ صُدُورُهُمْ وَمَا يُعْلِنُونَ
[Shakir 28:69] And your Lord knows what their breasts conceal and what they manifest.
[Pickthal 28:69] And thy Lord knoweth what their breasts conceal, and what they publish.
[Yusufali 28:69] And thy Lord knows all that their hearts conceal and all that they reveal.

Wa'alaikum Assalaam brother.

Allah does as He pleases when He pleases. Please read brother wmehar2's post here in regards to the verse in question:

You may find this verse interesting:

[24:55] Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the Earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient.

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If what they were transmitting was inauthentic, then it's not the Qur'an but falsehood. Only the truth can be authentic. And the Qur'an is the truth.

So can be the hadith as truth and authentic.

Quote

Sorry, I disagree. Again, the difference between the Qur'an and Hadith is that Allah's hand was behind only one of them. The other is a spaghetti of truth and falsehood.

But what make you reject this spaghetti? What if it is the truth, you still reject it because some of it can have mix of falsehood? 

Quote

Let's be honest, you only accept the hadith from other schools which agree with your view.

Irrelevant statement, I was talking about narration that is accepted by all because it is widely accepted and narrated by many.

Quote

At this point, it's clear that it's all just based on guesswork.

I don't call a seeking knowledge for many years to derive an conclusion as an guesswork. 

Edited by Abu Nur

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Hadith are strings of information that are missing great amounts of detail.  Time of day, context of situation,  moods of individuals, facial expressions,  events occurring immediately before  after, date/time etc etc...  There's too much risk in question for me .

What you listed does not bring anything valid reasoning to reject them, in the end it is just your own personal reference to reject them. What you said are things that is needes to take an account when seeking the truthness of hadith, but it does not itself make it to reject the narration.

Edited by Abu Nur

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Guest Light
15 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Clearly it's talking about those people  who attempted to create or invent gods and made up associates. They chose their associates they created. "They have not the choice" is still referring to those who associated others with God .  They have no choice in who their creator is and that Is evidenced on the day of judgement :

You indisputably cannot say that the verse 28:68 is only addressing the kuffar, otherwise it would be understood that you either you claim that you have the ability to read the mind of God or either you claim is that you're from the rasikhoona fil ilm and that's why you know the interpretation of this verse.

Lets now have a look at the verses which contain the same root of the word "yakhtar" (خ ي ر):

Surah Taha, Verse 13:
وَأَنَا اخْتَرْتُكَ فَاسْتَمِعْ لِمَا يُوحَىٰ

And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed:
(English - Shakir)

This is Prophet Musa (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) addressed him in these words while he reached to the blessed valley of "towa".

Now see another verse, very interesting indeed:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 155:
وَاخْتَارَ مُوسَىٰ قَوْمَهُ سَبْعِينَ رَجُلًا لِّمِيقَاتِنَا فَلَمَّا أَخَذَتْهُمُ الرَّجْفَةُ قَالَ رَبِّ لَوْ شِئْتَ أَهْلَكْتَهُم مِّن قَبْلُ وَإِيَّايَ أَتُهْلِكُنَا بِمَا فَعَلَ السُّفَهَاءُ مِنَّا إِنْ هِيَ إِلَّا فِتْنَتُكَ تُضِلُّ بِهَا مَن تَشَاءُ وَتَهْدِي مَن تَشَاءُ أَنتَ وَلِيُّنَا فَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا وَأَنتَ خَيْرُ الْغَافِرِينَ

And Musa chose out of his people seventy men for Our appointment; so when the earthquake overtook them, he said: My Lord! if Thou hadst pleased, Thou hadst destroyed them before and myself (too); wilt Thou destroy us for what the fools among us have done? It is naught but Thy trial, Thou makest err with it whom Thou pleasest and guidest whom Thou pleasest: Thou art our Guardian, therefore forgive us and have mercy on us, and Thou art the best of the forgivers.
(English - Shakir)

 

15 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

What you listed does not bring anything valid reasoning to reject them, in the end it is just your own personal reference to reject them. What you said are things that is needes to take an account when seeking the truthness of hadith, but it does not itself make it to reject the narration.

Why use partial or broken information?  The risks of following that can lead to great error .  I just can't accept that  

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Just now, wmehar2 said:

Why use partial or broken information?  The risks of following that can lead to great error .  I just can't accept that  

Everything of past is risk, it does not mean it can lead to great error so we must all together throw past knowledge away.

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

Everything of past is risk, it does not mean it can lead to great error so we must all together throw past knowledge away.

I argue it does .

Qur'an explicitly states following baseless hadith and assumption has sin.  Following religion of for father's and not what Allah sends down. If there is a risk, then there is uncertainty and doubt. 

Qur'an possesses none of those. 

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4 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I argue it does .

Qur'an explicitly states following baseless hadith and assumption has sin.  Following religion of for father's and not what Allah sends down. If there is a risk, then there is uncertainty and doubt. 

Qur'an possesses none of those. 

Yes baseless hadith that contradict Qur'an and assumption is always sin. But the mistake is that you reject all of the hadith because of your criterion you listed adobe. And that is not enough reason to reject them all.

Edited by Abu Nur

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53 minutes ago, Guest Light said:

You indisputably cannot say that the verse 28:68 is only addressing the kuffar, otherwise it would be understood that you either you claim that you have the ability to read the mind of God or either you claim is that you're from the rasikhoona fil ilm and that's why you know the interpretation of this verse.

Lets now have a look at the verses which contain the same root of the word "yakhtar" (خ ي ر):

Surah Taha, Verse 13:
وَأَنَا اخْتَرْتُكَ فَاسْتَمِعْ لِمَا يُوحَىٰ

And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed:
(English - Shakir)

This is Prophet Musa (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) addressed him in these words while he reached to the blessed valley of "towa".

Now see another verse, very interesting indeed:

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 155:
وَاخْتَارَ مُوسَىٰ قَوْمَهُ سَبْعِينَ رَجُلًا لِّمِيقَاتِنَا فَلَمَّا أَخَذَتْهُمُ الرَّجْفَةُ قَالَ رَبِّ لَوْ شِئْتَ أَهْلَكْتَهُم مِّن قَبْلُ وَإِيَّايَ أَتُهْلِكُنَا بِمَا فَعَلَ السُّفَهَاءُ مِنَّا إِنْ هِيَ إِلَّا فِتْنَتُكَ تُضِلُّ بِهَا مَن تَشَاءُ وَتَهْدِي مَن تَشَاءُ أَنتَ وَلِيُّنَا فَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا وَأَنتَ خَيْرُ الْغَافِرِينَ

And Musa chose out of his people seventy men for Our appointment; so when the earthquake overtook them, he said: My Lord! if Thou hadst pleased, Thou hadst destroyed them before and myself (too); wilt Thou destroy us for what the fools among us have done? It is naught but Thy trial, Thou makest err with it whom Thou pleasest and guidest whom Thou pleasest: Thou art our Guardian, therefore forgive us and have mercy on us, and Thou art the best of the forgivers.
(English - Shakir)

 

 

I read what is in front of me plainly.

Allah isn't inconsistent in how he refers to groups and expresses information in Qur'an.  The Qur'an says it's verses are consistent and not contradictory. 

If I bend the logic of plain reading and open room for the possibility of Allah referring to others here... who are they ?

I don't claim I read gods mind or know the truth but if what appears to me is 1+1 I will say it equals 2.  Maybe what appears before  you doesn't look like 1+1 and that's okay. Maybe  you see 1+1+1 and that it equals 3. 

But I will reject contradicting hadith. If you support your view from Qur'an and use that as an argument I will take it seriously under consideration.

Verb (form V) - to select, to choose

(56: 20: 3) yatakhayyarūna they select And a fruit of what they choose
(68: 38: 5) takhayyarūna you choose For you have no choice in it

Verb (form VIII) - to choose

(7: 155: 1) wa-ikh'tāra And chose And Moses chose his people seventy men to meet us.
(20: 13: 2) ikh'tartuka (have) chosen you And I have chosen you, and hear what is revealed.
(28: 68: 5) wayakhtāru and chooses And your Lord creates what He wills and chooses what was good for them.
(44: 32: 2) ikh'tarnāhum We chose them And we have chosen them for the knowledge of the worlds
Edited by wmehar2

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13 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes baseless hadith that contradict Qur'an and assumption is always sin. But the mistake is that you reject all of the hadith because of your criterion you listed adobe. And that is not enough reason to reject them all.

That's okay with me.

You may be right but you're assuming there must be something so important in those hadith that Qur'an left out that we must know or follow, right?

No?

Qur'an says it left nothing out. 

If there is something in hadith that is VITAL then I can see your point but  it needs to be proven from Qur'an not hadith.

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:31 AM, wmehar2 said:

You indisputably cannot prove it came from infallible.  That is an assumption and therefore these are your beliefs.

 

:) It can be proved very easily. Are you really unaware of the tools we have to verify a hadith? One of them is Qur'an Al-Hakim itself, second of them is the chain of narrators, third of them is the dirayah. 
 

On 9/13/2019 at 12:31 AM, wmehar2 said:

In addition burden of proof a being is infallible must be presented.  But we'll likely differ here in beliefs . You accept hadith as a source of religious text where as I don't so well never come to a consenus.

It is right there in Qur'an. The concept of infallibility is Quranic concept otherwise you will find nothing but contradictions in the verses of Qur'an. 
If you don't consider hadith as a source of religious text, how can you know how to offer prayers? What to recite while marrying a lady? How many rak'ah should one offer? etc.... 
 

On 9/13/2019 at 12:31 AM, wmehar2 said:

If you go to verse 64 of this chapter, it becomes evident the verse in question is alluding to those who associated others (animate and inanimate ) with God.  On the day of judgement who will call their associates ?  Who will come ?

How they associated others with God? Why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) needed to remind them the words that "Your Lord CREATES & CHOOSES whom He pleases"? 
If they were associating someone with God, for instance, saying their idols as God, why it is said "Your Lord creates & chooses? Please shed some light here. 
 

On 9/13/2019 at 12:31 AM, wmehar2 said:

Thy Lord creates whatsoever He will and He chooses, they have not the choice. Glory to God! High be He and exalted above THAT THEY ASSOCIATE .

Clearly it's talking about those people  who attempted to create or invent gods and made up associates. They chose their associates they created. "They have not the choice" is still referring to those who associated others with God .  They have no choice in who their creator is and that Is evidenced on the day of judgement :

 

LOL, 

It is not "Clearly" talking about what you have mentioned. One type of shirk is called shirk in obedience, for instance, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "Obey Allah, obey the Prophet & the Ulil Amr". Denying the obedience of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and/or Ulil Amr and inventing/creating your own Ulil Amr would be called shirk.

The verse in question, clearly talking about that kind of shirk that's why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "He creates and He chooses" and ended the verse on subhan Allahe amma yushrikoon. Means that the people were refusing the obedience of a chosen one and were doing the obedience of someone else.
 

On 9/13/2019 at 12:31 AM, wmehar2 said:

it shall be said, Call now upon your associates! And they will call upon them, but they shall not answer them, and they shall see a chastisement, if they have been guided!

Because "He" creates and "He" chooses what he creates. Per Verse 68.

  LOL, I seriously advise you brother to review on the way you are trying to interpret this verse. 

Wassalam
 

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21 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I read what is in front of me plainly.

Again you need a hadith for knowing the manners of reading the verses of Qur'an & pondering over them. 

It is a hadith which says "some of the verses of Qur'an explains some of its verses". 

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23 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

You may find this verse interesting:

[24:55] Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the Earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient.

Every verse of Qur'an Al-Hakim attracts my interest always Alhamdolillah! 

وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنْكُمْ وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ لَيَسْتَخْلِفَنَّهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ كَمَا اسْتَخْلَفَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ وَلَيُمَكِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ دِينَهُمُ الَّذِي ارْتَضَىٰ لَهُمْ وَلَيُبَدِّلَنَّهُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ خَوْفِهِمْ أَمْنًا ۚ يَعْبُدُونَنِي لَا يُشْرِكُونَ بِي شَيْئًا ۚ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

Above is the Arabic text of the verse, may I know what has attracted your interest in this verse? For me this verse clearly talking about Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) because of two reasons 
a) because there is a hadith from our 4th Imam mentioning that "This verse refers to the period when the last of the holy Imams, Al Mahdi will rule the world. He will root out iniquity and polytheism for ever."
b) The Arabic highlighted text of this verse itself confirming the statement of our 4th Imam.

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On 9/12/2019 at 7:28 PM, Jaane Rabb said:

The hadith is coming through a fallible cable. Doesn't matter if there's an infallible's name at the end of the chain. Hadith is only as good as its transmitters, hence its a fallible source. No hadith can be claimed to be 100% word of the infallible, including sahih ones.

 

On 9/12/2019 at 7:31 PM, wmehar2 said:

You indisputably cannot prove it came from infallible.  That is an assumption and therefore these are your beliefs.

In addition burden of proof a being is infallible must be presented.  But we'll likely differ here in beliefs . You accept hadith as a source of religious text where as I don't so well never come to a consenus.

It is to clarify that two sources for guidance are verses of Qur'an and the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad saww. After the Prophet the guidance to the people continued with the verses of Qur'an, hadith and interpretation provided by the pure progeny of the Prophet Muhammad saww.

The two weighty things as declared by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) include: Qur'an and His pure progeny ie Imams from Ahl alabayt and as per Shia belief they are infallible like the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ( but there is no Prophet after the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) according to the verse of purification (last part 33:33). These two weighty things are not separable (according to the famous authentic hadith of thaqlayn)  thus providing the evidence that sayings of Prophget Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from his Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) should be judged/ verified in the light of the verses of Qur'an. 

These sayings certainly involve the chain of fallible narrators but to meet the both ends of the rope / chain for confirmation the sayings / hadith need to be verified by the verses of Qur'an. If the hadith is against the verses of Qur'an it is certainly rejected whatever is the grading comes out on the basis of Rijal. If the hadith is in line with the verses of Qur'an it is acceptable..

wasalam

 

Edited by Muslim2010

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4 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

It is right there in Qur'an. The concept of infallibility is Quranic concept otherwise you will find nothing but contradictions in the verses of Qur'an. 
If you don't consider hadith as a source of religious text, how can you know how to offer prayers? What to recite while marrying a lady? How many rak'ah should one offer? etc.... 

Walaikum aa salaam

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

It is to clarify that two sources for guidance are verses of Qur'an and the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad saww. After the Prophet the guidance to the people continued with the verses of Qur'an, hadith and interpretation provided by the pure progeny of the Prophet Muhammad saww.

The two weighty things as declared by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) include: Qur'an and His pure progeny ie Imams from Ahl alabayt and as per Shia belief they are infallible like the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ( but there is no Prophet after the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) according to the verse of purification (last part 33:33). These two weighty things are not separable (according to the famous authentic hadith of thaqlayn)  thus providing the evidence that sayings of Prophget Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from his Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) should be judged/ verified in the light of the verses of Qur'an. 

These sayings certainly involve the chain of fallible narrators but to meet the both ends of the rope / chain for confirmation the sayings / hadith need to be verified by the verses of Qur'an. If the hadith is against the verses of Qur'an it is certainly rejected whatever is the grading comes out on the basis of Rijal. If the hadith is in line with the verses of Qur'an it is acceptable..

Time and time again I have this discussion.

Show me where then, please.

This is not a hole im willing to go down as I've discovered because we don't accept the same sources for religion that we'll never come to consensus

You're going to pull up Qur'an quotes and hadith that explain them as opposed to try and read them plainly .

I've proven that you cannot prove hadith are required to follow from Qur'an only. 

You can only substantiate using hadith from hadith .

Please, First prove to me the concept of the necessity of using hadith from Qur'an only if we're going to have a meaningful discussion.

I understand these are your beliefs but I have my reasons for beleiving these hadith were completely made up.

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4 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

The verse in question, clearly talking about that kind of shirk that's why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "He creates and He chooses" and ended the verse on subhan Allahe amma yushrikoon. Means that the people were refusing the obedience of a chosen one and were doing the obedience of someone else.

Obedience to the Prophet is upon beleivers, not idoleters. 

Christians governed themselves, as did Jews  yet they are not all kafir per Qur'an.

:/

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On 9/13/2019 at 5:29 AM, wmehar2 said:

Allah says Qur'an is sufficient. If we're lost without hadith then we assume a contradiction in Qur'an. Which says it is enough and complete.

Salam,

Where does it say the Qur’an is sufficient for all religious matters.

Second, Allah said obey the Prophet (this is talking about us today too). How are you going to obey him?

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