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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ali~J

Do you agree with/practice Tatbir? [POLL]

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Do you agree with/practice Tatbir?  

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  1. 1. Do you agree with/practice Tatbir?

    • Yes
      13
    • No
      24

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  • Poll closed on 09/09/2037 at 07:21 AM

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Every year people get into the debate of whether or not Shia Muslims, regardless of their Marja, should be practising Tatbir.. What is everyone's general opinion on this?

(PS. Mods I couldn't find the Poll content option on the Muharram 1441/2019 forum so it had go in Theology and General Religion...)

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Here’s ʿal-Sāyyid Ṣādeq ʿal-Ḥussāini ʿal-Roḥāni, the student of ʾal-Sāyyid ʾal-Ḵḫʾūi, after he had done tāṭbir.

unnamed.jpg.26d9c84c1eaf6897eb28b57af6dff753.jpg

And in Maḵḫzan al-Maʾāni, page 401.

It says that the ʾal-Shāyḵḫ ʾal-Māmaqani used to encourage people to do tāṭbir, and sometimes he would do it himself.

IMG_8166.jpg.d0388c825bce7bdc3ad98ae4db3e4c27.jpg

And in the aḥādith, that the Prophet used to practice cupping on his head, and call it, ʾal-munqiḏhā, and ʾal-muġhithā.

And I heard from a respected scholar, he mentioned in a lecture, that the Prophet used to hit his head with the sword twice in the year.

In the book, Bāyan al-Aʾimmāh, by Muhammad Mahdi Zāyn ʾal-Ābīdin ʾal-Nājafī.

He relates from his father, Zāyn ʾal-Ābīdin ʾal-Nājafī, one of the respected mārjas of his time in Nājaf, that he met ʾal-Imām ʾal-Mahdi in Māsjid ʾal-Sāhla, and asked him about the ḥukm of tāṭbir, and the Imām said it was permissible.

 

ʾal-Shāyḵḫ ʾal-Fāyyaḍh said that tāṭbir is permissible as per the fatwa of ʾal-Sāyyid ʾal-Ḵḫʾūi.

1037424189_output-onlinepngtools(1).png.2db339dff924263fb9a661fe65897a00.png

The scholars that agreed to this fatwa are:

  1. Wāḥid ʾal-Ḵḫurāsani.
  2. Jāwad ʾal-Tābrizi.
  3. Loṭfollāh Ṣāfi Golpāygani.
  4. Muḥammad Tāqi Bāhjat.
  5. Moḥāmmad Ḥussāini Shāhroūdi.
  6. Tāqi Ṭabāṭabaʾi Qomi.

and many more...

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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27 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

What is everyone's general opinion on this?

A better place to ask this question is right into the crowd of people doing tatbir. I think you will get very strong answer from them.

My personal opinion is related with what the religious authorities say. If they allow, who am I to criticise!!

If they prohibit, I have no objection on that too.

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40 minutes ago, Cool said:

A better place to ask this question is right into the crowd of people doing tatbir. I think you will get very strong answer from them.

That's not funny.

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40 minutes ago, Cool said:

A better place to ask this question is right into the crowd of people doing tatbir. I think you will get very strong answer from them.

My personal opinion is related with what the religious authorities say. If they allow, who am I to criticise!!

If they prohibit, I have no objection on that too.

That is very poor way to answer brother. We shouldn't be emotional to questioner who asks for knowledge.

1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

Every year people get into the debate of whether or not Shia Muslims, regardless of their Marja, should be practising Tatbir.. What is everyone's general opinion on this?

(PS. Mods I couldn't find the Poll content option on the Muharram 1441/2019 forum so it had go in Theology and General Religion...)

This question has two parts:

1. If you are doing tatbir for sake of being famous or deliberately to cause the notion that Islam considers this as Wajib so that name of Islam can be made controversial then it is haram.

2. If you are doing it for your love of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) then such a matter is between you and Allah (عزّ وجلّ). Like those who perform sae between safa and marwa and none has right to judge you for it is duty of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to judge.

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I always get annoyed when Shi’as do these crazy extreme things like crawling  above a grave. People won’t become Shi’a because of that, you know akhi

Karbala is holy just like the beautiful grave it has, but why do you do these extreme practices that damage Shi’as and make people insult and ridicule them. These bloody rituals are also not the most healthy things I’ve seen. Not just because of blood loss, but Imagine what kind of bacteria can spread. Just, remember Hussain (عليه السلام)

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I have nothing against a person who decides to practise tatbir. If I were to have an issue, it's because of my personal taste or maybe arrogance. People have different ways of mourning for Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and it's all symbolic. Even if you observe different cultures, the way they do mattam differs! The diversity is beautiful! We all should focus on loving those who have love for Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) in their hearts. Why are we overly judgemental? is it because certain people look uneducated? do we not like the blood that pours out from their skins? do we find their act disgusting?

It's sad how this debate has divided so many Shias.

However, we must ask ourselves - is it appropriate to practise tatbir anywhere?  

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20 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

So in my opinion if its not wajib to do tatbir, I would say refrain unless you really want to, then make sure its done privately and not in public.

Yeah, wise words.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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My family including my dad is against tatbir, they believe it is too extreme

People need to understand that the act of tatbir is more of a cultural/traditional than a religious belief. Although some of the scholars say it is permissible, majority of them say that it shouldn't be practiced nowadays because it can be problematic and if it leads to harm. For instance, Imam Khomeini said that there is nothing wrong with it, but it should be avoided in this era. Abu Qasim al Khoei says its impermissible if it causes harm, as well as many other scholars, especially Sayyid Sistani who says that if it ruins the reputation of Shia Muslims it shouldn't be practised. And sadly that is what is happening today. We have Sunnis who criticise us for mourning Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) through shedding blood; is this how we spread Shi'ism and the massacre of Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) and his family? Stuff like that would scare people away 

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16 minutes ago, notme said:

Moderator note to OP: What is the purpose of this discussion?

The purpose of this discussion is to bring the problem with practicing tatbir in 2019 to light and make it [the problem] known to the people. 

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7 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

I always get annoyed when Shi’as do these crazy extreme things like crawling  above a grave. People won’t become Shi’a because of that, you know akhi

Karbala is holy just like the beautiful grave it has, but why do you do these extreme practices that damage Shi’as and make people insult and ridicule them. These bloody rituals are also not the most healthy things I’ve seen. Not just because of bloos loss, but Imagine what kind of bacteria can spread. Just, remember Hussain (عليه السلام)

Yes first of all blood is najis in Islam and there is principle of not bringing harm to the image of Islam. Not to mention upon who's minhaj is this? Who's Sunnah in order to call it mustahhab? Certainly not the Prophet or Ahlul-Bayt.

Abu ad-Darda’ (رضي الله عنه) said:

“You will never be misguided so long as you follow the footsteps [of the Prophet (saw)].” [Ibn Battah in Al-Ibaanah]

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I’m against it completely. I’ve seen some pictures of some parents cutting their own children who are still toddlers, is this permissible? Trust me guys, These kids will be ex Shia. Remember what Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) did in the day of ashura, he (عليه السلام) sacrifices himself for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to keep Islam alive. Instead of spreading the message to the world, some Shia’s are cutting themselves in public so that no one join the Shia sects. 

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1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

That's not funny.

I was not kidding brother.

Actually your question is strange. If one agree with tatbir, he should have to practice it. Unless there is any strong reason with him for not doing that which he totally agrees with.

The one who don't agree with tatbir, never practice it even people say anything or mention any fazeelat and even his marja make it permissible.

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43 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

The purpose of this discussion is to bring the problem with practicing tatbir

This is the reason I was advising you to go straight into the crowd where people are doing it.

Be brave, go and tell them the problems.

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Tatbir is a practice that was adopted from other faiths and cultures. Unfortunately, it has become the cornerstone practice of Shias and the day of Ashura. If this practice had any merit, surely Imam Sajjad would have practiced it. Hence, tatbir is purely an innovation that has divided the school of Aal Muhammad.

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Guest Pschological Warfare
3 hours ago, Ali~J said:

Every year people get into the debate of whether or not Shia Muslims, regardless of their Marja, should be practising Tatbir.. What is everyone's general opinion on this?

(PS. Mods I couldn't find the Poll content option on the Muharram 1441/2019 forum so it had go in Theology and General Religion...)

If someone believes/thinks that this is a matter for the Marja( Jurist) and falls under their Domain. They should follow their Marja( Jurist). Unless they are a Marja( Jurist ) themselves.

If they do not believe/think its the Domain of a Marja( Jurist) . Still avoid promotion or demotion as its your own opinion and as such should not be imposed on others. 

Otherwise, promoting or demoting an Issue which has become political is not wise. An attempt to impose the opinion ( For or against) of a Marja( Jurist) on the followers of others is not good practice.

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25 minutes ago, Cool said:

Be brave, go and tell them the problems.

I would never do that because: I'm sure that the type of people who practice Tatbir in public view whilst aware of the problems it causes for the Shia of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in 2019 would injure me.

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31 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

public view 

Meaning an Image Issue. 

There are people on both sides of this arguments and  same is true for the Marja(Jurists) who are for or against or abstain are aware of this Image issue and their rulings incorporate this variable with short/medium/long terms impact of this Image concerns vs ( X= Multiple Variable). 

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35 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

I would never do that because: I'm sure that the type of people who practice Tatbir in public view whilst aware of the problems it causes for the Shia of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in 2019 would injure me.

It would not be wise to interrupt them, as they themselves will tell you "we don't feel the pain, we are not in our senses, we are only concerned with the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (ra)", not in debate. Perhaps try to give da'wah after the sessions during Ashura pass.

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1 hour ago, Diaz said:

I’m against it completely. I’ve seen some pictures of some parents cutting their own children who are still toddlers, is this permissible? Trust me guys, These kids will be ex Shia. Remember what Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) did in the day of ashura, he (عليه السلام) sacrifices himself for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and to keep Islam alive. Instead of spreading the message to the world, some Shia’s are cutting themselves in public so that no one join the Shia sects.

In the book, ʿal-Fatāwa, by ʿal-Sāyyid Muḥāmmad Sāeed ʿal-Ṭabāṭabaʾi ʿal-Ḥākim.

Question 1026: Does the father have authority to cut his son’s head until blood comes out (tāṭbir) in the tenth of Muḥārram? And what if the child was very young, and if it wasn’t permissible, please give us the evidence?

Answer: Yes, he has the authority to do that.

Question 1027: My heart was determined to perform tāṭbir on my little children this year in the tenth of Muḥārram ʿal-Ḥāram, for the purpose of teaching them about the Ḥussāini observances (shāʾair), and alḥāmdullillah what I wanted was done, without any harm [being] on my sons. Is there a diyā on me?

Answer: If the wāli saw that adequate (valid) for them, it was permissible for him, and there’s no diyā on him.

IMG_8328-1024x612.thumb.jpg.aae2a9572b28ab90fbd06f10cc0b7ca1.jpg

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I will ask you @Simon the Canaanite and @notme how would you feel whilst showing this: 

37 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Question 1026: Does the father have authority to cut his son’s head until blood comes out (tāṭbir) in the tenth of Muḥārram? And what if the child was very young, and if it wasn’t permissible, please give us the evidence?

Answer: Yes, he has the authority to do that.

Question 1027: My heart was determined to perform tāṭbir on my little children this year in the tenth of Muḥārram ʿal-Ḥāram, for the purpose of teaching them about the Ḥussāini observances (shāʾair), and alḥāmdullillah what I wanted was done, without any harm [being] on my sons. Is there a diyā on me?

Answer: If the wāli saw that adequate (valid) for them, it was permissible for him, and there’s no diyā on him.

to a non Muslim or Sunni? Unless you are prepared to do this you cannot disagree with what I aforementioned. 

@Sirius_Bright and @2Timeless you must go too on judgement day. 

Edited by Ali~J

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Why are we focused so much on what a Sunni thinks? Sunni's main problem with a Shia is not tatbir but Wilayate Ali (عليه السلام) & Bara'ah with his enemies. 

You can disagree with tatbir but those who are doing are permitted by their Maraja. So, there shouldn't be any point of discussion. 

No Shia would injure you. They're striking their back in grief of Aba Abdillah (عليه السلام), not in enmity or anger. 

Edited by Sirius_Bright

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Just now, 786:) said:

Tatbir is a practice that was adopted from other faiths and cultures.

Tatbir may be problematic in it self for it own reasons, but what is wrong about adopting a practice from other faiths and cultures? Sujud is a practice that was originally adopted from other faiths and cultures. The Buddhists still does it to some extent. Should Muslims not do the sujud during prayer because the Buddhists does it?

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1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

I would never do that because: I'm sure that the type of people who practice Tatbir in public view whilst aware of the problems it causes for the Shia of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in 2019 would injure me.

You poor thing! Unless you're injured by the mere oxygen that those people would waste on trying to talk to you, I don’t see how they'd injure you. 

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32 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

I will ask you @Simon the Canaanite and @notme how would you feel whilst showing this: 

to a non Muslim or Sunni? Unless you are prepared to do this you cannot disagree with what I aforementioned. 

I disagree that you would be in danger from our fellow Shia simply for respectfully questioning their ritual.

I do not participate in tatbir, but since it is allowed, I will not condemn those who do, any more than I would condemn those who practice polygamy or wear a burka.

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I will say this before this gets locked or something like that. 

I don't have a problem with Tatbir in itself if your Marja allows it but the problem I do have is when I've got non Muslims coming up to me saying that I'm a monster because my religion allows this:

31 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

Does the father have authority to cut his son’s head until blood comes out

I have a problem when Sunnis don't even call me a Muslim because some Marja allow this ^

The Christian's say that Islam allows the torture of children. 

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Just now, 2Timeless said:

What do you mean?

@Cool Said 

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

I was advising you to go straight into the crowd where people are doing it.

Then I said

1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

I would never do that because: I'm sure that the type of people who practice Tatbir in public view whilst aware of the problems it causes for the Shia of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in 2019 would injure me.

And @Simon the Canaanite responded with quotes from a book which said it was permissible for a Father to do tatbir on his child.

Then I said:

I will ask you @Simon the Canaanite and @notme how would you feel whilst showing this:

Question 1026: Does the father have authority to cut his son’s head until blood comes out (tāṭbir) in the tenth of Muḥārram? And what if the child was very young, and if it wasn’t permissible, please give us the evidence?

Answer: Yes, he has the authority to do that.

Question 1027: My heart was determined to perform tāṭbir on my little children this year in the tenth of Muḥārram ʿal-Ḥāram, for the purpose of teaching them about the Ḥussāini observances (shāʾair), and alḥāmdullillah what I wanted was done, without any harm [being] on my sons. Is there a diyā on me?

Answer: If the wāli saw that adequate (valid) for them, it was permissible for him, and there’s no diyā on him.

To a Non Muslim (because @Simon the Canaanite disagreed with me when I said that it would be harmful for me to go to a Muslim who does tatbir with my problems with Tatbir.

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Since 5 people disagree with this 

1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

I would never do that because: I'm sure that the type of people who practice Tatbir in public view whilst aware of the problems it causes for the Shia of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in 2019 would injure me.

I will actually go on the 10th of Muharram to people doing Tatbir and tell them what problems I have... 

I will hand my password and username to my brother. If anything has happened to me, you will hear from him. 

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19 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

I have a problem when Sunnis don't even call me a Muslim because some Marja allow this ^

Who cares? The truth was always hard to digest... And anyhow, it’s not in the favor of “Sunnis” to mock, or ridicule, because it’s a known fact that atheists attack Islam because of them.

I can’t post the reasons here, because they’re way too many to count, and known.

19 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

The Christian's say that Islam allows the torture of children.

I don’t know if you’ve read their records/chronicles before, but they’ve practiced bloodletting before... a lot..

I explained this in a thread I posted a few weeks ago:

On 8/4/2019 at 4:52 AM, Simon the Canaanite said:

Bloodletting, along with leeching, was a common practice during the medieval times. And afterwards, because the Victorians really loved this.

Since blood circulation is essential to our well-being, medieval physicians believed that by getting rid of bad blood (literally) they would cure a patient and help them feel healthy again.

How they knew exactly how much blood is enough, and why only the bad blood would go out - is anyone’s guess, but they sure did it.

And they went so far as to assume that bloodletting was generally beneficial for the body. Feeling depressed, got a cough, typhoid fever? The plague?

If one didn’t have an open wound to spill some urine on, then bloodletting was definitely the solution to all of the problems!

And to this day, they practice similar things, see for yourself!

This is in London.

69596180_368420960736548_7720284404110589952_n.jpg.5ecf968aa8ac9f1df795c1e1a0813a18.jpg

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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1 hour ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

In the book, ʿal-Fatāwa, by ʿal-Sāyyid Muḥāmmad Sāeed ʿal-Ṭabāṭabaʾi ʿal-Ḥākim.

Question 1026: Does the father have authority to cut his son’s head until blood comes out (tāṭbir) in the tenth of Muḥārram? And what if the child was very young, and if it wasn’t permissible, please give us the evidence?

Answer: Yes, he has the authority to do that.

Question 1027: My heart was determined to perform tāṭbir on my little children this year in the tenth of Muḥārram ʿal-Ḥāram, for the purpose of teaching them about the Ḥussāini observances (shāʾair), and alḥāmdullillah what I wanted was done, without any harm [being] on my sons. Is there a diyā on me?

Answer: If the wāli saw that adequate (valid) for them, it was permissible for him, and there’s no diyā on him.

IMG_8328-1024x612.thumb.jpg.aae2a9572b28ab90fbd06f10cc0b7ca1.jpg

This is violence against children!

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