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In the Name of God بسم الله
Marzii

Proof of God's existence

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2 hours ago, kashif.h said:

I did not read the whole discussion but I am going to end it right there, with this one answer:

I think, therefore I am. And if I am, there is a Superior Being who made me.

I never found a single atheist able to withstand that argument, it's an atomic bomb that just blows their minds (pun intended).

this is not ending anything, go read the discussion.

even if I accept a Creator (which I do), how you're going to prove the rest, attributes, heaven hell etc

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15 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

How do you account for the hell and punishment verses in the Qur'an? The skin being burnt over and over again is in the Qur'an as well as God destroying nations...

also it seems like you are cherry picking things from Islam... rejecting hadith for example.

Why should I feel pity towards those who spread corruption and earned that punishment ? Who am I to say if those who have earned such punishment shouldn't or should earn it?

Destroying nations of corrupted and evil individuals, something I'm not going to lose sleep over.

The Qur'an makes it clear who are those that are evil, Kufr/Kafir. 

A simple atheist isn't one of them. 

It seems to me you beleive those who would hypothetically earn punishment do not deserve it.  Well that is entirely a separate discussion.  You have to establish who do you believe those who earn those punishments are.

Cherry picking is for hadith believers who construe hadith with religion in my view.  

Qur'an is Qur'an. There is no changing it, what is in there is what I must accept and believe if I'm to consider this book a message from a divine entity. Per the book itself you can't cherry pick verses and exchange them with others and that there should be no other  hadith /Law that we abide by. Qur'an  quite literally states this. We should not follow other than what God has sent down and then call ourselves beleivers. Hadith fail that criteria.

45:6

Those are the signs of God that We recite to thee in truth; in what manner of discourse then, after God and His signs, will they believe?

discourse is a translation of hadith directly.

 

Chapter 46:9

Say: 'I am not an innovation among the Messengers, and I know not what shall be done with me or with you. I only follow what is revealed to me; I am only a clear warner.'

6:50

Say: 'I do not say to you, "I possess the treasuries of God"; I know not the Unseen. And I say not to you, "I am an angel"; I only follow what is revealed to me. Say: 'Are the blind and the seeing man equal? Will you not reflect?'

 

In my view, We needlessly broken into  sects based on hadith that contradict the above.  We beleive that the Prophet rode on a magical donkey to heaven, some think gays and homosexuals should be killed and thrown off buildings, and a whole slew of other garbage.  All of which are contradictory to the book.

Edited by wmehar2

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7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Why should I feel pity towards those who spread corruption and earned that punishment ? Who am I to say if those who have earned such punishment shouldn't or should earn it?

Destroying nations of corrupted and evil individuals, something I'm not going to lose sleep over.

The Qur'an makes it clear who are those that are evil, Kufr/Kafir. 

A simple atheist isn't one of them. 

It seems to me you beleive those who would hypothetically earn punishment do not deserve it.  Well that is entirely a separate discussion.  You have to establish who do you believe those who earn those punishments are.

I don't want get into this argument as I started a thread on it some time ago, don't recommend reading but my answer is in here

 

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8 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't want get into this argument as I started a thread on it some time ago, don't recommend reading but my answer is in here

 

You're right it's not for my reading.

I scanned it and saw your initial post.

I don't share the belief that God has written a story for every one that set in stone. As I've discovered to beleive otherwise. So I can't discuss or argue either way.

I argue  that among those God deems as worthy of punishment are those who understand and receive the message yet act against it. Not those  who don't understand or the message isn't for. The message is open to mankind but it tatgets a specific grp of people.

The beginning of the Qur'an states the book is for those who have a conscious or awareness of God.  The book isn't for people who don't have this.

Disbelievers/Kufr... are those who have this yet act against God.

Such people who have no awareness of God are not applicable under categories of disbelievers per Qur'an. That is that.

I don't know what God would do with those people but it's clear God has different standards of righteousness  by groups of people as I presented evidence earlier from the Qur'an.

 

massive edits because I'm typing on a phone , sorry

Edited by wmehar2

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Thinking doesn’t prove that you exist.  Are you nothing but your thought(s)? 

Also, how do you get from “thoughts” to “Creator”?

 

Maybe I didn't formulate my reply correctly. What proves that I exist (I'm taking myself as an example not to be self-centered but because it makes things easier) is the fact that I'm having those thoughts, that I'm hearing the sounds my keyboard makes as I type this and see the letters appear on screen, that I can remember what I ate this morning and where my house is located, etc.

I definetely agree that I'm not just a bunch of thoughts but defining the "I" is not an easy task. What is easy however is coming to the conclusion that I, whatver that means, definitely exists.

Once it is established that I exist, then there must be a cause for the I. After all, I have no reason to think that I created myself: quite the contrary in fact, as I don't remember how the weather was 5000 years ago for instance.

Of course, I never said I and God were the only beings in existence. I simply used that thought experiment to show how uncertain life is except for those two things, since the OP is afflicted with doubts about the existence of God. It could very well be that everything I perceive through my senses exist and there is no reason to think otherwise actually.

But, eThErEaL, as a Muslim, why do you reject my reasoning?

43 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

 

I wasn't trying to prove the rest, I was only answering the question n°3 ("lastly... please do provide some simple proofs of Allah's existence").

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6 minutes ago, kashif.h said:

 

I wasn't trying to prove the rest, I was only answering the question n°3 ("lastly... please do provide some simple proofs of Allah's existence").

I understand you weren't, but I am requesting you too... since I struggle with tht part... what makes you believe the rest...

do you see the problem in asking what you "believe"... it's quite different from we know to be provable and true.

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29 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't want get into this argument as I started a thread on it some time ago, don't recommend reading but my answer is in here

 

But I agree that there's a logical fallacy.

It's foolish to think God is Controlling everything. God causing something to happen is not the same as saying God willfully controlled an event to happen.

I don't subscribe to predestination or or belief that God creates a sinful beings specifically by person on purpose.  That's garbage . 

I put a rock on a road and someone trips over it, I caused it but I  didn't purposefully cause  that specific  person to trip.

The laws of the universe as we observe are patterned and very consistent.

An engineer can understand the design of it's machine  but how the peices scatter and fall in the end will be the same result on aggregate.  No different than the central limit theory .

God isn't controlling everything like a puppeteer . He set a series of events In motion  that brought us to our existence , that govern our behavior etc. Those same events lead to our experiences and dispositioning of actions that we take which we construe as freewill.  It is inevitable  our varying perspectives will clash and people  will make good or bad decisions. 

Our capacity to be sinful is there as is to be good.  We can change, and  we  may not change.   

"GOOD and EVIL" are contrasting of each of other and necessary in order for us to exercise freewill.

 

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51 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

But I agree that there's a logical fallacy.

It's foolish to think God is Controlling everything. God causing something to happen is not the same as saying God willfully controlled an event to happen.

I don't subscribe to predestination or or belief that God creates a sinful beings specifically by person on purpose.  That's garbage . 

I put a rock on a road and someone trips over it, I caused it but I  didn't purposefully cause  that specific  person to trip.

The laws of the universe as we observe are patterned and very consistent.

An engineer can understand the design of it's machine  but how the peices scatter and fall in the end will be the same result on aggregate.  No different than the central limit theory .

God isn't controlling everything like a puppeteer . He set a series of events In motion  that brought us to our existence , that govern our behavior etc. Those same events lead to our experiences and dispositioning of actions that we take which we construe as freewill.  It is inevitable  our varying perspectives will clash and people  will make good or bad decisions. 

Our capacity to be sinful is there as is to be good.  We can change, and  we  may not change.   

"GOOD and EVIL" are contrasting of each of other and necessary in order for us to exercise freewill.

 

 

My response in first post:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235061919-the-case-against-God/

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4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't know this post adresses a related but different topic?

...  it's straightforward to understand.  But not easy to address this topic.

How the hell can we humankind demonstrate the best we can be without suffering and adversity ?

How do we understand the value of peace or virtues of honesty and who possess qualitaties of trustworthyness... if we had the cures(per your post).

How would we contrast what is good is all is good.

How to demonstrate and be the best we can be if there's no one suffering for us to help,  is that not a beatiful thing of human kind to demonstrate ??

Do we really have freewill if there was no suffering ? 

Would we know what a good twinky is supposed to taste like if they all taste the same?

Humankind as a creation I suspect needs these qualities to contrast good, bad, etc.  If God gave us a cure,it's like designing and building a Ferrari without core parts, or missing the transmission.

If there was no suffering my argument is we would never appreciate the fact we had the cures and didn't have to suffer, we as human beings would fail to show a key portion of our spectrum.... all there is to see what a human is ... would never Manifest itself.

 

..thats how I see it 

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I don't know this post adresses a related but different topic?

...  it's straightforward to understand.  But not easy to address this topic.

How the hell can we humankind demonstrate the best we can be without suffering and adversity ?

How do we understand the value of peace or virtues of honesty and who possess qualitaties of trustworthyness... if we had the cures(per your post).

How would we contrast what is good is all is good.

How to demonstrate and be the best we can be if there's no one suffering for us to help,  is that not a beatiful thing of human kind to demonstrate ??

Do we really have freewill if there was no suffering ? 

Would we know what a good twinky is supposed to taste like if they all taste the same?

Humankind as a creation I suspect needs these qualities to contrast good, bad, etc.  If God gave us a cure,it's like designing and building a Ferrari without core parts, or missing the transmission.

If there was no suffering my argument is we would never appreciate the fact we had the cures and didn't have to suffer, we as human beings would fail to show a key portion of our spectrum.... all there is to see what a human is ... would never Manifest itself.

 

..thats how I see it 

Its a nice view, but doesn't prove anything objectively, here is a rant I wrote from same thread:

What happened to God that at some point in “no time” (how does this make sense?) decided He wanted to be known. What made Him decided He wanted to be known… I mean what exactly changed in Allah’s “life” or whatever He has that He decided this is a good time to do the following experiment….

 

He decided He’s going to create infinite angels, dinosaurs, a single tiny speck of a dust of a planet where life will begin with betrayal and murder after 15 billion years of waiting, and all of this being done for the sake of 5 perfect reflections that He made of Himself… who will mostly get murdered in cold blood when they are born in humanly form…. then He placed psychotic idol worshipping people who would sacrifice their own people to please their Gods, so He sent Prophets after Prophets that were mostly failures and God wiped those people out violently, placed them in burning dark fire forever, because, after all His creation was stealing and cheating and murdering etc… and people wouldn’t listen to His perfect Messengers that He gave Knowledge and Wisdom to… should I go on… this is absurd… then you gotta die and be squeezed into the ground where some scary or handsome looking angels are going to interrogate you. Then you might have to be tortured for all the sins you did. how does any of this fall in line with knowing His perfect attributes… do His attributes include pain and suffering and hell fire? Is it necessary that some amount suffer infinitely so that others can become Prophets and Allah’s friends for eternity? Why couldn’t every human being born be a Prophet if Allah wanted to be KNOWN? If Allah wanted to give His Mercy to everyone, then why all the crazy obstacles and all of the above and more…

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1 hour ago, kashif.h said:

Maybe I didn't formulate my reply correctly. What proves that I exist (I'm taking myself as an example not to be self-centered but because it makes things easier) is the fact that I'm having those thoughts, that I'm hearing the sounds my keyboard makes as I type this and see the letters appear on screen, that I can remember what I ate this morning and where my house is located, etc.

There is no “I” that is having thoughts.  I will grant you that there is this or that thought (MAYBE).  There may even be a thought of “I” but that itself is not proof that an actual I exists.  There is no proof that these thoughts “belong” to an “I”.

Quote

I definetely agree that I'm not just a bunch of thoughts but defining the "I" is not an easy task. What is easy however is coming to the conclusion that I, whatver that means, definitely exists.

I am not asking you to define the I.  You brought up the whole problem of “proving that an I exists” by introducing Descartes.  But Descartes got it wrong because his starting point is the doubt, or the thought or cognition NOT the I.   Yes, there is something self-evident, but it isn’t the thought which is self-evident, it is the I which is NOT the thought that is self-evident.  This is a very important fallacy to be aware of because Descartes is identifying the I with thought(s) or mind (cognition).  And this sets off or creates a whole slew of fake philosophical problems to solve in the history of modern philosophy for example: the interaction between mind and matter or between mind and body and between realism vs idealism or th3 problem of solipsism and the problem of how knowledge is gained of the so called “outside world”. Etc etc

Quote

Once it is established that I exist, then there must be a cause for the I. After all, I have no reason to think that I created myself: quite the contrary in fact, as I don't remember how the weather was 5000 years ago for instance.

Of course, I never said I and God were the only beings in existence. I simply used that thought experiment to show how uncertain life is except for those two things, since the OP is afflicted with doubts about the existence of God. It could very well be that everything I perceive through my senses exist and there is no reason to think otherwise actually.

But, eThErEaL, as a Muslim, why do you reject my reasoning?

I wasn't trying to prove the rest, I was only answering the question n°3 ("lastly... please do provide some simple proofs of Allah's existence").

 

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18 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Its a nice view, but doesn't prove anything objectively, here is a rant I wrote from same thread:

What happened to God that at some point in “no time” (how does this make sense?) decided He wanted to be known. What made Him decided He wanted to be known… I mean what exactly changed in Allah’s “life” or whatever He has that He decided this is a good time to do the following experiment….

 

He decided He’s going to create infinite angels, dinosaurs, a single tiny speck of a dust of a planet where life will begin with betrayal and murder after 15 billion years of waiting, and all of this being done for the sake of 5 perfect reflections that He made of Himself… who will mostly get murdered in cold blood when they are born in humanly form…. then He placed psychotic idol worshipping people who would sacrifice their own people to please their Gods, so He sent Prophets after Prophets that were mostly failures and God wiped those people out violently, placed them in burning dark fire forever, because, after all His creation was stealing and cheating and murdering etc… and people wouldn’t listen to His perfect Messengers that He gave Knowledge and Wisdom to… should I go on… this is absurd… then you gotta die and be squeezed into the ground where some scary or handsome looking angels are going to interrogate you. Then you might have to be tortured for all the sins you did. how does any of this fall in line with knowing His perfect attributes… do His attributes include pain and suffering and hell fire? Is it necessary that some amount suffer infinitely so that others can become Prophets and Allah’s friends for eternity? Why couldn’t every human being born be a Prophet if Allah wanted to be KNOWN? If Allah wanted to give His Mercy to everyone, then why all the crazy obstacles and all of the above and more…

I don't think it's  so bad f someone lived and never discovered or knew God.... is it?

It could be potentially but how many  outlanderish people will understand burying babies alive is wrong and do it for stupid reasons ?

I mean ... I'm just shooting ideas here. But what husband or wife would want someone to feel forced to be with them ?

Maybe belief in God should be authentic. .. because the guidance he provides throughout time motivates us that creates a bond that's meaningful ? Such that it aligns deep within ourselves out inclination of right /wrong?  I dare not say I know.

What makes the most sense to me is God created us and cares about  us and wants to help us out. 

God doesn't need worship or us, but maybe, it's a nice thing to have.   If that worship and acknowledgement comes from a real place?   

5:83

and when they hear what has been sent down to the Messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of the truth they recognize. They say, 'Our Lord, we believe; so do Thou write us down among the witnesses.

I don't believe in the angel interrogation garbage.

My view is you and Me and everyone has a guiding intuition of wrong and right.  Per Qur'an,  we don't need Qur'an to have this intuition.

And if we fail to listen to it, we become depraved, less than human deserving punishment.

Regardless Whether you stumbled across gods message or not. Because you'd still be kafir if you reject this seemingly divine intuition we have.

Righteousness is something not limited only to those who follow Qur'an. 

Perhaps God did send enough Prophets and miracles... look around the world. Majority of people believe in something supernatural.

Perhaps the minority are In the extreme who need more to be convinced ? I don't know.

Edited by wmehar2

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I can tell you how this thread is going to phase out, by @eThErEaL insisting we don't exist and these problems and questions aren't real also... awesome way to explain away all the crap humans live through everyday...

have you ever met someone who's been abused? someone who's been raped repeatedly as a child? try telling them they don't exist and there is no I...

 

Edited by khamosh21

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28 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Its a nice view, but doesn't prove anything objectively

I'm not sure if I can prove anything objectively. Hahahaha

I just feel it out and see if it resonates from within and try to rationalize it.

I'm not trying prove anything but discuss and reflect whats going on In my head.

 

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27 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I can tell you how this thread is going to phase out, by @eThErEaL insisting we don't exist and these problems and questions aren't real also... awesome way to explain away all the crap humans live through everyday...

have you ever met someone who's been abused? someone who's been raped repeatedly as a child? try telling them they don't exist and there is no I...

 

I have met people who have been abused since they were young and are now flourishing and very happy due to their genuine understanding of who they really are and how illusory their false sense of self or identifications are.  

Life is seen as being very fun and wonderful! 

You don’t have to take my word for it, you should look at what you directly experience and simply question what you are witnessing.  Ask yourself and Inquire who you are by investigating whether you really are who you think you are.  You can get “addicted” to it and you will begin see “the world” through a fresh new lens.  Things which usually would upset you won’t upset you so much.  Things you used to take seriously will appear to be funny.  And then you might be able to see what those religions were talking about after all!  Finally, you will embrace or welcome death and you won’t be afraid of it at all.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I have met people who have been abused since they were young and are now flourishing and very happy due to their genuine understanding of who they really are and how illusory their false sense of self or identifications are.  

Life is seen as being very fun and wonderful! 

You don’t have to take my word for it, you should look at what you directly experience and simply question what you are witnessing.  Ask yourself and Inquire who you are by investigating whether you really are who you think you are.  You can get “addicted” to it and you will begin see “the world” through a fresh new lens.  Things which usually would upset you won’t upset you so much.  Things you used to take seriously will appear to be funny.  And then you might be able to see what those religions were talking about after all!  Finally, you will embrace or welcome death and you won’t be afraid of it at all.  

Yet we can and do as a population inflict pain on each other and it is very real and we're bring judged for it (assuming you are also Muslim).

Your worry for others, drive to survive, to balance and rule and set examples to avert worse disasters .

They are real and have consequences.  If not many things are serious you , fine but never forget what is real to others and don't dismiss it. 

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28 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I'm not sure if I can prove anything objectively. Hahahaha

I just feel it out and see if it resonates from within and try to rationalize it.

I'm not trying prove anything but discuss and reflect whats going on In my head.

 

the title of this thread is "proof" of God's existence, not "my feelings" ;)

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19 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Yet we can and do as a population inflict pain on each other and it is very real and we're bring judged for it (assuming you are also Muslim).

Your worry for others, drive to survive, to balance and rule and set examples to avert worse disasters .

They are real and have consequences.  If not many things are serious you , fine but never forget what is real to others and don't dismiss it. 

I only care what is actually real.  And what is actually real is God.  Hell and all the so called problems exist because people imagine that There is a reality besides God (another name for this is called “shirk” FYI)

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5 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I only care what is actually real.  And what is actually real is God.  Hell and all the so called problems exist because people imagine that There is a reality besides God (another name for this is called “shirk” FYI)

Then killing another soul is fine.  God's testament to killing a soul equivalent to all mankind is actually immaterial according to that line of logic?

assuming you believe God sent everyone a message.

God's words and message are real if God is real per your logic. 

A family member or friend murdered is a problem to God and many other people.

A material result is not nothing and is real.

What is real to you is not the unobjective reality.

 

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19 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Then killing another soul is fine.  God's testament to killing a soul equivalent to all mankind is actually immaterial according to that line of logic?

assuming you believe God sent everyone a message.

God's words and message are real if God is real per your logic. 

A family member or friend murdered is a problem to God and many other people.

A material result is not nothing and is real.

What is real to you is not the unobjective reality.

 

There is nothing real but God.  There is no objective reality but God.  The Qur'an or the Message or the Law or whatever is not to be taken as an association to God in being real. This is just Tawhid 101.  I am sorry if this doesn’t sit too well with you.  But reality sometimes bites.  

I have mentioned elsewhere that there is an “apparent” reality, but it is nothing but “apparent”.  One who sees God everywhere would’t want to murder anyone or cause harm to anyone, because he or she sees Himself and Everything as nothing but God (and God is Beautiful, Peace, Happiness.). 

People harm one another only out of a feeling of deficiency, but when one sees God in everything one is Fulfilled.

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

There is nothing real but God.  There is no objective reality but God.  The Qur'an or the Message or the Law or whatever is not to be taken as an association to God in being real.  

I have mentioned elsewhere that there is an “apparent” reality, but it is nothing but “apparent”.  One who sees God everywhere would’t want to murder anyone or cause harm to anyone, because he or she sees Himself and Everything as nothing but God (and God is Beautiful, Peace, Happiness.). 

People harm one another only out of a feeling of deficiency, but when one sees God in everything one is Fulfilled.

 

God said the book was for us. We are real.

Our being and state of mind matter to God. Therefore we are real  if God is real by your logic. 

Actions and decisions have weight.

Unless you don't believe in the book that's another story. 

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57 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

God said the book was for us. We are real.

Our being and state of mind matter to God. Therefore we are real  if God is real by your logic. 

Actions and decisions have weight.

Unless you don't believe in the book that's another story. 

Brother if you want to believe in shirk then lakum deenukum waliya deen.

There is “no God” but God.  

Nothing.  Natta.  Zero.

only Allah.  Only One Reality.  Finished.

lol

only God matters to God.  Nothing else matters to God.  That is why only He is worthy of praise.  Only God’s Act has any weight.  Only He has The Power.  Everything is about God in the Qur'an.  This is the message of the Qur'an.  “You” are successful only inasmuch as you recognize and realize this fact.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Brother if you want to believe in shirk then lakum deenukum waliya deen.

There is “no God” but God.  

Nothing.  Natta.  Zero.

only Allah.  Only One Reality.  Finished.

lol

only God matters to God.  Nothing else matters to God.  That is why only He is worthy of praise.  Only God’s Act has any weight.  Only He has The Power.  Everything is about God in the Qur'an.  This is the message of the Qur'an.

Prove it. 

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7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

There is “no God” but God.  

Nothing.  Natta.  Zero.

only Allah.  Only One Reality.  Finished

It sounds as though you're confusing "There is No God but God" with "there is nothing but God"

 

They are not equivalent statements. 

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

It sounds as though you're confusing "There is No God but God" with "there is nothing but God"

 

They are not equivalent statements. 

Brother,

what does tawhid mean to you?

what is a God?  

A God is anything you consider to have a separate independent reality apart from the one and true Reality (the One and True God).

is this not how you see it?  How else could one see it?

So, for example:

Let us say you made a living by working hard for the day and you earned some money for your food.  tawhid of Afaal (Action) says;  there is no provider, and no strength but God.  God is the Only Provider.  Because there is no act but his Act.  

let us say you see a flower tonhave it’s own beauty, then this is shirk.  Because tawhid of Sifat will say:  there is no beauty but God’s Beauty.  There is no quality but it is His Quality.

let us say you think there are many things that exist.  Well, Tawhid of Essence (Al-Dhat) will say; there is no essence but His Essence. He is the only One and True Essence.  

Do you see now?  

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Brother,

what does tawhid mean to you?

what is a God?  

A God is anything you consider to have a separate independent reality apart from the one and true Reality (the One and True God).

is this not how you see it?  How else could one see it?

 

 

 

This is according to you. Prove to me your statement.  Show me the proof of the this reality unless you admit to me it's self derived

"A God is anything you consider to have a separate independent reality apart from the one and true Reality (the One and True God)"

Who told you that is what a God is? What told you this.

 Can there be sub realities under one true reality can the sums of all realities give way to the one true reality is reality even something that can be plural.

I can literally proved you right now in many different ways that the realities of two different people of two different perspectives can be different yet the same

Edited by wmehar2

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4 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

This is according to you. Prove to me your statement.  Show me the proof of the this reality unless you admit to me it's self derived

"A God is anything you consider to have a separate independent reality apart from the one and true Reality (the One and True God)"

Who told you that is what a God is? What told you this.

Please refer to my edited comments.  

Did you attend a madressa growing up?

were you always a Muslim?

Edited by eThErEaL

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16 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Let us say you made a living by working hard for the day and you earned some money for your food.  tawhid of Afaal (Action) says;  there is no provider, and no strength but God.  God is the Only Provider.  Because there is no act but his Act.  

let us say you see a flower tonhave it’s own beauty, then this is shirk.  Because tawhid of Sifat will say:  there is no beauty but God’s Beauty.  There is no quality but it is His Quality.

let us say you think there are many things that exist.  Well, Tawhid of Essence (Al-Dhat) will say; there is no essence but His Essence. He is the only One and True Essence.  

In all of this you have not shown me anything. Yes God is a provider of everything there can be flowers fruits and vegetables right in front of me but I have to literally go pick them and then eat them in order to benefit from them. Without work or effort from my part extance of those vegetables and fruit mean nothing.

In order for me to even have fruit or vegetables if they're not in the place where they're growing on their own I need to go to a field toll the land seed the land water it and cultivate it I need knowledge.  God has to give me knowledge.

In order for me to act on this knowledge I use my brain myself my perspective my reality to interpret this knowledge and act on this knowledge.

You are arbitrarily telling me that a flower has its own Beauty and say it shirk for me to have that opinion t yet you've not considered the possibility that if I acknowledge God caused this flower to be pretty and cause my brain to interpret and see this flower as pretty or having its own quality of pretty then I'm not really breaking or violating anything here.

You are literally applying terms in attributes whether or not meant to be applied. A lot of people think Jesus Is God because he has powers or Miracles, but if God gave him those things and he required them not have his own then I can see your logic however you're taking this concept and applying it to literally everything.

 

If you're trying to say God created humans iand the human psyche there for every measurement or concept of beauty that we come up with or feeling that we feel or emotion that we invoke is due to God then sure I can see what you're saying. In a way cause this.

Our Free Will comes from God and we are in control of it this is what I have argument with you. The Free Will does not belong to us we are borrowing it or something that's bestowed upon us until we have it no more and then we were turn to God.

This is why we have different perspectives different realities. Which may or may not necessarily converge.

Whatever substance that God has bestowed upon us is divine this I do not deny in this you cannot argue.  If a human being committed a sin or detestable action that God in the Qur'an calls detestable and should never be attributed to God you have to separate that from God otherwise your line of logic will associate the two.

 

A human being committing shirk by your job definition is just God's doing which is also contradictory and makes no sense.

 

You should tell me first by starting a premise of every permutation of possible things that could come into existence already exists or pre-exist and human beings interaction with these things are merely discoveries of these things. God has layed it out .

It makes this a difficult debate to follow.

Edited by wmehar2

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21 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Please refer to my edited comments.  

Did you attend a madressa growing up?

were you always a Muslim?

Who knows who is a Muslim and whose not. You and I don't have the prerequisites  to make such judgments. 

I attended a madreas growing up . Born to a Pakistani dad and Greek mom. If that answers your question.

No single person on this planet living today is an authority on gods message .

Therefore we have discussions and be nice and refrain from deeming people as shirk and kafir.

I beleive in the Qur'an as God's message all of it.

I reject hadith because they have holes and contradictions wth the message.

I beleive in the message because it's not contradictory and therefore no human could have wrote it in addition. To other inspiring verses  that I can't explain  that pushes me towards the belief. 

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With all these weird ideologies and opinions here, I cannot differentiate who is of a Jafaria Madhab and who is not. Confusing bunch of people, if I were to say. 

Anyways, I don't have that much time right now for posting, but when I do, Khamosh21, I will allow you to have the experience of the definition of your name directly ( no pun intended), that is if you have not been warned or banned by that time. 

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12 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

even if I accept a Creator (which I do), how you're going to prove the rest, attributes, heaven hell etc

Please elaborate how is your Creator? A just one or an unjust one? If you think He is "Just", what makes Him "Just" and then what enables Him to do justice? And then why He forgives, if He is Just? 

I am trying to correct the directions of your questions :)

 

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12 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Please elaborate how is your Creator? A just one or an unjust one? If you think He is "Just", what makes Him "Just" and then what enables Him to do justice? And then why He forgives, if He is Just? 

I am trying to correct the directions of your questions :)

 

I have no idea how this creator is. I don’t know it's purpose, reason, or any attributes... religion gives all those things to the creator and I am doubting religion.

Edited by khamosh21

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5 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

With all these weird ideologies and opinions here, I cannot differentiate who is of a Jafaria Madhab and who is not. Confusing bunch of people, if I were to say. 

Anyways, I don't have that much time right now for posting, but when I do, Khamosh21, I will allow you to have the experience of the definition of your name directly ( no pun intended), that is if you have not been warned or banned by that time. 

lol, hope you get the time brother...  I can still read your post if I get banned, they can't ban me from the internet you know :)

Edited by khamosh21

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12 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Please elaborate how is your Creator? A just one or an unjust one? If you think He is "Just", what makes Him "Just" and then what enables Him to do justice? And then why He forgives, if He is Just? 

I am trying to correct the directions of your questions :)

 

I wanted to add, how do you know how this Creator is? Has he ever talked to you? Ive said this before, our relationship to Allah is just like the idol worshipper, only our God isn't made of matter but imagination and thoughts. 

On what grounds do we criticize an idol worshipper for saying your idol doesn't listen or speak? When did Allah speak to any of us?

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5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

religion gives all those things to the creator and I am doubting religion.

And what you think religion really is? 

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