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In the Name of God بسم الله
Marzii

Proof of God's existence

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55 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

do I really need to spell this out for you? in your terms, I am asking why is it that such few people are able to define reality correctly then? why the drama and game of convincing Allah exists if it's all so easy and 100 percent people get it?

im just saying the point was quite clear, the reply did not address this...

Define reality? How can it be define. For convincing about Allah, it is because some people understand it differently and sometimes different understanding is needed. Then there are people who don't care. I don't understand what is this hustle about why people can't easily get that God is Reality.

Edited by Abu Nur

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39 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Define reality? How can it be define. For convincing about Allah, it is because some people understand it differently and sometimes different understanding is needed. Then there are people who don't care. I don't understand what is this hustle about why people can't easily get that God is Reality.

I would have no problem accepting this if it didn't come with so many imaginary concepts attached to it which no one can prove. There's just way too much info to keep balanced in your imagination, imaginary angels, jinn, shayateen, all the stuff going on in hell and heaven, all the history you gotta remember... of course imagining God and His attributes.. no wonder you gotta keep doin zikr, prayer, read Qur'an everyday, theres no other way to keep these things alive in your imagination...

just look at poor OP having anxiety attacks as his imagination can no longer match reality...

Edit: forgot the 2 angels on your shoulders and 2 shayateen born with you -_-

Edited by khamosh21

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

I would have no problem accepting this if it didn't come with so many imaginary concepts attached to it which no one can prove. There's just way too much info to keep balanced in your imagination, imaginary angels, jinn, shayateen, all the stuff going on in hell and heaven, all the history you gotta remember... of course imagining God and His attributes.. no wonder you gotta keep doin zikr, prayer, read Qur'an everyday, theres no other way to keep these things alive in your imagination...

just look at poor OP having anxiety attacks as his imagination can no longer match reality...

Edit: forgot the 2 angels on your shoulders and 2 shayateen born with you -_-

Why in the world you still write your religion to be Islam when these things to you is just imagination concept that no one can be proven? Keep your conjectures to yourself and they are your own proof.

Edited by Abu Nur

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10 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

do I really need to spell this out for you? in your terms, I am asking why is it that such few people are able to define reality correctly then? why the drama and game of convincing Allah exists if it's all so easy and 100 percent people get it?

im just saying the point was quite clear, the reply did not address this...

The drama comes from religious fanatics and atheists.  In reality there is only reality which is undefinable and limitless.  Everyone who thinks they know reality or can define reality has in fact mistook reality for something limited (or finite).  

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The drama comes from religious fanatics and atheists.  In reality there is only reality which is undefinable and limitless.  Everyone who thinks they know reality or can define reality has in fact mistook reality for something limited (or finite).  

Ok agreed. Getting back to my main question, and sorry to OP, I don't know where he/she's gone. Why only select few that God spoke to, why such few that get divine knowledge, ilm huzoori? am I wrong in saying it's less than 1 percent.

Secondly, I do believe in a Creator, I'm unfortunately not entirely convinced of entire system of Prophethood (which in turn includes the Qur'an and everything else), and the doubts have reached a turning a point in my life. Suppose I accept a Creator, and continue to live life peacefully as is... 

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16 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Why in the world you still write your religion to be Islam when these things to you is just imagination concept that no one can be proven? Keep your conjectures to yourself and they are your own proof.

I updated my profile for your sake. and you sound quite upset, I was only answering a question you asked, whereas no one's really answered mine... the best part is when you ask questions that people don't have answers to, their last reply is your heart is sealed etc.

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51 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I updated my profile for your sake. and you sound quite upset, I was only answering a question you asked, whereas no one's really answered mine... the best part is when you ask questions that people don't have answers to, their last reply is your heart is sealed etc.

It makes people confuse, because they think you are Muslim. 

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On 9/9/2019 at 5:01 AM, khamosh21 said:

Ok agreed. Getting back to my main question, and sorry to OP, I don't know where he/she's gone. Why only select few that God spoke to, why such few that get divine knowledge, ilm huzoori? am I wrong in saying it's less than 1 percent.

Secondly, I do believe in a Creator, I'm unfortunately not entirely convinced of entire system of Prophethood (which in turn includes the Qur'an and everything else), and the doubts have reached a turning a point in my life. Suppose I accept a Creator, and continue to live life peacefully as is... 

Whether you believe in a creator or not, it is besides the point of there being reality!  Beliefs are mere thoughts and a thought doesn’t point to anything beyond itself.  Thoughts are just thoughts.  I can have a thought or a belief of a unicorn.  I can have a thought that God exists or a thought that God does not exist (doesn’t mean anything).

You are still caught within the whole drama/ play of right and wrong, good and bad.   But reality is not affected by anything (by any of these opposites).  

“A Prophet” is also a concept or a thought.  The real Prophet is not that historical individual which exists in your imagination but is rather within YOU, that You that recognizes reality for what it is.  The historical individual we call a Propeht is only a symbol for the real Prophet.

I am more of an atheist than those whom call themselves atheists.  And I am more of a religionist than those who say they adhere to a religion.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:01 AM, khamosh21 said:

Ok agreed. Getting back to my main question, and sorry to OP, I don't know where he/she's gone. Why only select few that God spoke to, why such few that get divine knowledge, ilm huzoori? am I wrong in saying it's less than 1 percent.

Secondly, I do believe in a Creator, I'm unfortunately not entirely convinced of entire system of Prophethood (which in turn includes the Qur'an and everything else), and the doubts have reached a turning a point in my life. Suppose I accept a Creator, and continue to live life peacefully as is... 

I am a long long time lurker but this thread finally made me register and your post really intrigued me. 

When you say you do believe in a creator. Can I ask why? I fully understand and agree with your prophethood statement eventhough that's the least of issues when it comes to believing in a religion but you still think there is a creator. If you have some time, I would be interested to read your reasoning on that. 

Thanks.

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7 hours ago, Nihilist King said:

I am a long long time lurker but this thread finally made me register and your post really intrigued me. 

When you say you do believe in a creator. Can I ask why? I fully understand and agree with your prophethood statement eventhough that's the least of issues when it comes to believing in a religion but you still think there is a creator. If you have some time, I would be interested to read your reasoning on that. 

Thanks.

welcome to ShiaChat! 

I have an undefined Creator, whereas Islam provides attributes, purpose, and reason to this Creator, I don't know if those things are true or not...

I believe in a Creator simply because I don't see everything coming into existence out of nothing... why or what caused it, I don't know, and I just can't believe in all the religious theories... 

2 nights ago I reached a conclusion somewhat, I am no longer going to continue chasing the imaginary... what is now and in front of me is what this Creator wants me to experience, and it doesn't matter if it is good or bad, if He is watching, seeing, listening or not, or if it is suffering, I will do whatever I can to help and love others in that moment... 

Edited by khamosh21

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Whether you believe in a creator or not, it is besides the point of there being reality!  Beliefs are mere thoughts and a thought doesn’t point to anything beyond itself.  Thoughts are just thoughts.  I can have a thought or a belief of a unicorn.  I can have a thought that God exists or a thought that God does not exist (doesn’t mean anything).

You are still caught within the whole drama/ play of right and wrong, good and bad.   But reality is not affected by anything (by any of these opposites).  

“A Prophet” is also a concept or a thought.  The real Prophet is not that historical individual which exists in your imagination but is rather within YOU, that You that recognizes reality for what it is.  The historical individual we call a Propeht is only a symbol for the real Prophet.

I am more of an atheist than those whom call themselves atheists.  And I am more of a religionist than those who say they adhere to a religion.  

for first time I have to say I can't agree with you more... I realized I shouldn't stress about history or beliefs, and also I shouldn't bother others about it either...

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

welcome to ShiaChat! 

I have an undefined Creator, whereas Islam provides attributes, purpose, and reason to this Creator, I don't know if those things are true or not...

I believe in a Creator simply because I don't see everything coming into existence out of nothing... why or what caused it, I don't know, and I just can't believe in all the religious theories... 

2 nights ago I reached a conclusion somewhat, I am no longer going to continue chasing the imaginary... what is now and in front of me is what this Creator wants me to experience, and it doesn't matter if it is good or bad, if He is watching, seeing, listening or not, or if it is suffering, I will do whatever I can to help and love others in that moment... 

The idea that something “came into existence” in the first place (either by nothing or by something) is simply a belief (it is merely in your imagination as a thought about something supposedly historical). 

 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

The idea that something “came into existence” in the first place (either by nothing or by something) is simply a belief (it is merely in your imagination as a thought about something supposedly historical). 

 

It's not merely a belief as there is enough reasoning and evidence to show it does have a beginning. Simply observing everything around shows things are coming into existence.

Elsewhere you have said that you believe the Qur'an is the word of God... how would one prove that?

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

It's not merely a belief as there is enough reasoning and evidence to show it does have a beginning. Simply observing everything around shows things are coming into existence.

Elsewhere you have said that you believe the Qur'an is the word of God... how would one prove that?

Where in direct experience do you see ANYTHING coming into existence?  

Edited by eThErEaL

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16 hours ago, Nihilist King said:

When you say you do believe in a creator. Can I ask why?

I believe in Him, because without Him nothing makes sense to me. I've been up to the fence of disbelief and I couldn't cross it, because it would've been akin to me denying my own existence and that's impossible to do. This is where people overlook the obvious sign; You yourself are proof of your Creator's existence. Give more thought to yourself; your existence, consciousness, functions - get to know yourself better and appreciate the self rather than taking for granted.

All the best, inshaAllah.

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

It's not merely a belief as there is enough reasoning and evidence to show it does have a beginning. Simply observing everything around shows things are coming into existence.

Elsewhere you have said that you believe the Qur'an is the word of God... how would one prove that?

The Qur'an that people usually talk about is merely a symbol for the real Qur'an that exists within your real self.  Again, I repeat, the real Self is the self that knows reality for what it is and as it is.  Furthermore, it knows this reality as itself, by itself and through itself.

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On 9/5/2019 at 7:16 AM, Marzii said:

Salam alaikum every one

I hope everyone is doing well. So,as my previous posts reveal, I'm a patient of obsessive compulsive disorder, diagnosed officially. My mind tends to doubt everything under the sky..from the very point of me being awake and living to the point if Allah exists or not.. some days I'm full of conviction in my beliefs about Allah....but as soon as the ocd strikes...it just messes up my head, my heart, my beliefs.. everything...there is just two thoughts in my mind 24/7 "what if there is no God" "what if you become an atheist" 

It's the beginning of Muharram...and these thoughts are really killing me. I just can't focus in my prayers, while reading the Qur'an or during the Majlis... although I do these things everyday...I feel no. Connection with Allah...I feel lost..in every aspect of Islam that I believe in...there is a" what if" thought in my head...what if the hadiths are all false, what if the Qur'an is man made, what if there is actually no Allah....and the list goes on... whenever these thoughts strike...I search for a solution...I'm compelled to...search the internet..go on atheistc and/or religious sites to reassure myself that my beliefs are true..

I wanted to ask some questions regarding my above condition

1) am I out of the fold of Islam if I have such doubts? 

2)can I just believe...as I want yo believe...I love Allah and Islam 

3) lastly... please do provide some simple proofs of Allah's existence..

I would humbly request every one to pray for me to Allah..that if he exists I want to be guided..

Thank you so much

 

What does it mean to be Muslim?  When in Qur'an 2:128, Ibrahim asks Allah to make him a Muslim and his descendants,  to accept their repentance. 

Was he not already a Muslim ?

Is Muslim something or a state we fall in and out of ... or once you're a Muslim you're always a Muslim ??

From what I can see, me, you many others are righteous (2:177) at best.  Being Muslim is a difficult feat. 

Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the Prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.

Being righteous is important.  These criteria of those can be righteous can apply to those who have never read the Qur'an, believing Christians, Jews, agnostics. 

3:113-3:114

Yet they are not all alike; some of the People of the Book are a nation upstanding, that recite God's signs in the watches of the night, bowing themselves,believing in God and in the Last Day, bidding to honour and forbidding dishonour, vying one with the other in good works; those are of the ****righteous**** .

Even they have criteria to meet to be righteous.

Allah cares if you're righteous in addition to your belief of Allah's existence. Being a Muslim,  hadith all that other stuff comes after.  Nothing should get in the way of you being righteous. 

rejection of truth after coming to know it is the antithesis of righteousness, concealing it within yourself and to others after knowing it.  The ultimate meaning of Kafir.

An atheist/agnostic  who tries to be righteous  never having read or come across  the message is in a much better position than we think.

Food for thought.

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

My kids for one...

That is not what “direct experience” tells you but is rather just an interpretation made by the thoughts of the mind.  It is actually impossible to directly witness something coming “into being”.  All that is going on is that you have the thought (yes, a mere thought) of “coming into being” and then you associating this thought with “an image” of what you call your kid or child at conception.  And so there is an illusion of “a child coming into being”.  Nothing comes into being.  

I’ll take it a step further. 

Even your thoughts don’t “come into being”.  How would one even be able to witness such a thing?  How would you even be able to witness the absence of a thought “in the past” and compare it with the presence of that thought at the present moment?  Unless of course you are using something called “memory” which again is another illusory thought.  A memory is nothing but an image that is labeled by a thought called “past”.  

There is nothing but the present moment.  Even a moment is another thought because a moment is only a moment in relation to other moments.  So there is only nothing but a changeless timelessness or eternity.  

The fact is that there is just reality and then there are these thoughts that appear to be real when they are given attention and which muddles the situation by making people believe that there are things which come into being or that things “happen”.  

Nothing happens, there is just reality and reality just is!

as Parmenides said:  That which is, is, and that which is not, is not!

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 9/8/2019 at 1:34 PM, Abu Nur said:

Why in the world you still write your religion to be Islam when these things to you is just imagination concept that no one can be proven? Keep your conjectures to yourself and they are your own proof.

It is like "faith" -the belief that there is a Last Day. You either do or you don't -inshallah.

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

That is not what “direct experience” tells you but is rather just an interpretation made by the thoughts of the mind.  It is actually impossible to directly witness something coming “into being”.  All that is going on is that you have the thought (yes, a mere thought) of “coming into being” and then you associating this thought with “an image” of what you call your kid or child at conception.  And so there is an illusion of “a child coming into being”.  Nothing comes into being.  

I’ll take it a step further. 

Even your thoughts don’t “come into being”.  How would one even be able to witness such a thing?  How would you even be able to witness the absence of a thought “in the past” and compare it with the presence of that thought at the present moment?  Unless of course you are using something called “memory” which again is another illusory thought.  A memory is nothing but an image that is labeled by a thought called “past”.  

There is nothing but the present moment.  Even a moment is another thought because a moment is only a moment in relation to other moments.  So there is only nothing but a changeless timelessness or eternity.  

The fact is that there is just reality and then there are these thoughts that appear to be real when they are given attention and which muddles the situation by making people believe that there are things which come into being or that things “happen”.  

Nothing happens, there is just reality and reality just is!

as Parmenides said:  That which is, is, and that which is not, is not!

clearly there was a time when I was not in existence (if I was, then I have no memory of it), and now I am.

not only me, but there used to be dinosaurs at some point, and now there are humans...

I understand what you're saying, but not understanding I guess...

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14 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

What does it mean to be Muslim?  When in Qur'an 2:128, Ibrahim asks Allah to make him a Muslim and his descendants,  to accept their repentance. 

Was he not already a Muslim ?

Is Muslim something or a state we fall in and out of ... or once you're a Muslim you're always a Muslim ??

From what I can see, me, you many others are righteous (2:177) at best.  Being Muslim is a difficult feat. 

When his Lord tested Abraham with certain words and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’ (124)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:124

 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:124

Salam it describes him as Imam & Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in 128 was doing ritual of Hajj with his son Ismail (عليه السلام) so who from his sons not be Unjust & repents is a Muslim & Imam that  referss to 12 Imams & Prophet Muhammad (pbu)

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5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

clearly there was a time when I was not in existence

Better to say that there was a time when you were "Lam Yakun Shay'an Mazkoora" (a thing worth not mentioning). But you were a "thing" at lest, and were existent. 

"You" are eternal, do you have any idea!!!

Edited by Logic1234

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

clearly there was a time when I was not in existence (if I was, then I have no memory of it), and now I am.

not only me, but there used to be dinosaurs at some point, and now there are humans...

I understand what you're saying, but not understanding I guess...

Your direct experience does not tell you that you were not for the simple reason that you cannot directly experience a past.  The past, by definition, IS NOT REAL.  Don’t take my word for it but simply examine your direct experience which is always NOW.  your mind is making you believe in something called time that somehow has a duration and that stretches from something we call the “past” and ends up in something called “future”.  These are simply the illusory construction of the mind.  

On a side note:

When you go to sleep and have no thoughts or images due to “deep sleep” and when you wake up, do you feel that you were nonexistent?  You don’t feel you were nonexistent despite not having any experience of thoughts, sensations and feelings.  This is because you are not your thoughts, feelings and sensations.  Similarly, you don’t have any recollection of a past before you were supposedly a child or were born.  I say supposedly because you were never a child and you were never born.  You were never the body you think you have anymore than you were never the bodies that you “assumed” during your dreams that you had.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 9/5/2019 at 9:16 PM, Marzii said:

Salam alaikum every one

I hope everyone is doing well. So,as my previous posts reveal, I'm a patient of obsessive compulsive disorder, diagnosed officially. My mind tends to doubt everything under the sky..from the very point of me being awake and living to the point if Allah exists or not.. some days I'm full of conviction in my beliefs about Allah....but as soon as the ocd strikes...it just messes up my head, my heart, my beliefs.. everything...there is just two thoughts in my mind 24/7 "what if there is no God" "what if you become an atheist" 

It's the beginning of Muharram...and these thoughts are really killing me. I just can't focus in my prayers, while reading the Qur'an or during the Majlis... although I do these things everyday...I feel no. Connection with Allah...I feel lost..in every aspect of Islam that I believe in...there is a" what if" thought in my head...what if the hadiths are all false, what if the Qur'an is man made, what if there is actually no Allah....and the list goes on... whenever these thoughts strike...I search for a solution...I'm compelled to...search the internet..go on atheistc and/or religious sites to reassure myself that my beliefs are true..

I wanted to ask some questions regarding my above condition

1) am I out of the fold of Islam if I have such doubts? 

2)can I just believe...as I want yo believe...I love Allah and Islam 

3) lastly... please do provide some simple proofs of Allah's existence..

I would humbly request every one to pray for me to Allah..that if he exists I want to be guided..

Thank you so much

 

Ws,

Well if you have doubts, then you will be in the categories of those that doubt, simple as that.

To put it simply, there are three categories:

1) Those that are certain

2) Those that doubt

3) Those that don't believe in it.

 

Quote

1) am I out of the fold of Islam if I have such doubts

Well, in regards to your above question 1, you are in the category of those that doubt.

 

On 9/6/2019 at 3:41 AM, Revert1963 said:

No. Everyone has doubts.

Keeping in mind the context of the questions. I would disagree with you. Some people doubt not everyone.

On 9/7/2019 at 7:38 PM, khamosh21 said:

salaam brother, I was in your boat some time ago, and although I don't want to, I can't bring myself to believe in the Islamic version of God, a God that destroys nations and roasts people's skin over and over again, that hangs women by their hair and has evil looking angels burning prisoners in hell. what part of this is divine and not made up, I can’t tell... I can’t believe in a God that wants us to repeat things like robots, Much of the "life of hereafter" seems like a fantasy to me...

for a religion that asks you to ponder, paradoxically the first thing its asks you to do is "believe in the unseen"... don't ponder on that... in other words take one person's word for it, this is something that can't be proven.

lastly this religion is so much dependent on the scholarly work and trust worthiness of normal men throughout the history... (Ilm Rajaal)... because of these imperfect men throughout history, in my opinion its impossible to clearly figure out what actually happened in history, what anyone actually said or didn't say... did the Prophet split the moon or not, how can anyone prove this?

it's impossible to criticize the Qur'an, as there is always some "interpretation" of it that means something else... its like arguing with Sunnis, you can't win even if the hadith is from their book.

I find myself lost and no one to turn to for answers....

First of all, I would like to remind you of the forum's rules:

1. Blasphemy of any kind towards Allah (sw), Prophet Muhammad (saww), the Ahlul-Bayt and any Prophet of Allah, shall be met with a permanent ban from this site. No warning is necessary.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/guidelines/ 

 

The only reason, I chose to remind you is because you are using disrespectful, degrading statements and ridiculing for no reason. The mods can correct me if I am not mistaken. 

 

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3 minutes ago, ShiaMahamed said:

Ws,

Well if you have doubts, then you will be in the categories of those that doubt, simple as that.

To put it simply, there are three categories:

1) Those that are certain

2) Those that doubt

3) Those that don't believe in it.

 

Well, in regards to your above question 1, you are in the category of those that doubt.

 

Keeping in mind the context of the questions. I would disagree with you. Some people doubt not everyone.

First of all, I would like to remind you of the forum's rules:

1. Blasphemy of any kind towards Allah (sw), Prophet Muhammad (saww), the Ahlul-Bayt and any Prophet of Allah, shall be met with a permanent ban from this site. No warning is necessary.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/guidelines/ 

 

The only reason, I chose to remind you is because you are using disrespectful, degrading statements and ridiculing for no reason. The mods can correct me if I am not mistaken. 

 

Dear brother,

He is sincerely asking and he has a right to ask and question.  He is not intending to be disrespectful.  Clearly.  He is just frustrated about the whole situation with regards how his questions and issues are not ha does appropriately. 

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

When his Lord tested Abraham with certain words and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’ (124)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:124

 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:124

Salam it describes him as Imam & Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in 128 was doing ritual of Hajj with his son Ismail (عليه السلام) so who from his sons not be Unjust & repents is a Muslim & Imam that  referss to 12 Imams & Prophet Muhammad (pbu)

Wsalam,

The verse uses future tense, "WILL make you a leader", that present point in time he was not an Imam. 

But Sure you're point stands.  A leader among people.  My point was at some point in time, the Prophet ibrahim prayed to be made a Muslim along with him and his descendants. When Allah informs him of future leadership/Imama .... he was told the wrongdoers among his descendants the covenant does not apply to.

Of course Allah fulfills the promise  given and made Ibrahim an Imam afterward, but that proves my point.  In order to be be  a leader. Something deeper beyond a righteous person is required, becoming a Muslim ! Something Allah gives to Ibrahim.

 

 

Edited by wmehar2

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41 minutes ago, ShiaMahamed said:

salaam brother, I was in your boat some time ago, and although I don't want to, I can't bring myself to believe in the Islamic version of God, a God that destroys nations and roasts people's skin over and over again, that hangs women by their hair and has evil looking angels burning prisoners in hell. what part of this is divine and not made up, I can’t tell... I can’t believe in a God that wants us to repeat things like robots, Much of the "life of hereafter" seems like a fantasy to me...

@khamosh21

I consider myself one whon follows the book, and try to be Muslim .  

I don't believe in this version of God you describe nor do I think it's Islamic.

This is the reason I reject hadiths... what I believe to be fabricated stories that people used irationally to justify something they don’t understand or for other reasons.

Other Muslims exist who don't believe or think these things as part of God's message .. which is what you describe so I would ask that you refrain from calling what you describe as "Islamic" as Islamic.

They are merely viewpoints of others who try and follow Islam.  Like myself we don't know all the answers, we try and do what we think is best. 

How else can Islam be split into so many sects?

 

Edited by wmehar2

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20 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

What does it mean to be Muslim?  When in Qur'an 2:128, Ibrahim asks Allah to make him a Muslim and his descendants,  to accept their repentance. 

Was he not already a Muslim ?

Is Muslim something or a state we fall in and out of ... or once you're a Muslim you're always a Muslim ??

From what I can see, me, you many others are righteous (2:177) at best.  Being Muslim is a difficult feat. 

Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the Prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.

Being righteous is important.  These criteria of those can be righteous can apply to those who have never read the Qur'an, believing Christians, Jews, agnostics. 

3:113-3:114

Yet they are not all alike; some of the People of the Book are a nation upstanding, that recite God's signs in the watches of the night, bowing themselves,believing in God and in the Last Day, bidding to honour and forbidding dishonour, vying one with the other in good works; those are of the ****righteous**** .

Even they have criteria to meet to be righteous.

Allah cares if you're righteous in addition to your belief of Allah's existence. Being a Muslim,  hadith all that other stuff comes after.  Nothing should get in the way of you being righteous. 

rejection of truth after coming to know it is the antithesis of righteousness, concealing it within yourself and to others after knowing it.  The ultimate meaning of Kafir.

An atheist/agnostic  who tries to be righteous  never having read or come across  the message is in a much better position than we think.

Food for thought.

@khamosh21

God doesn't sound so bad here does he?

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57 minutes ago, ShiaMahamed said:

eThErEal and Wmehar2 read my post again.

 

And to Wmehar2 that quote was of khamoosh21. 

 

Quote and read properly! 

I know I put khamosh21 in the reference. Sorry my dude.

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I did not read the whole discussion but I am going to end it right there, with this one answer:

I think, therefore I am. And if I am, there is a Superior Being who made me.

I never found a single atheist able to withstand that argument, it's an atomic bomb that just blows their minds (pun intended).

Think about it: you don't know for sure if the world around you exists since you can only perceive it through your senses (mostly sight, hearing and touch). It might be a sort of big dream or a simulation (if you assume you're actually in the future or something).

Although there is no reason to think the world isn't real, the fact is you can't prove 100% that the world is real. However, I can prove 100% (not 99,999% but litterally one-hundred percent) that I exist and, therefore, the Creator exists also.

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1 hour ago, kashif.h said:

I did not read the whole discussion but I am going to end it right there, with this one answer:

I think, therefore I am. And if I am, there is a Superior Being who made me.

I never found a single atheist able to withstand that argument, it's an atomic bomb that just blows their minds (pun intended).

Think about it: you don't know for sure if the world around you exists since you can only perceive it through your senses (mostly sight, hearing and touch). It might be a sort of big dream or a simulation (if you assume you're actually in the future or something).

Although there is no reason to think the world isn't real, the fact is you can't prove 100% that the world is real. However, I can prove 100% (not 99,999% but litterally one-hundred percent) that I exist and, therefore, the Creator exists also.

Thinking doesn’t prove that you exist.  Are you nothing but your thought(s)? 

Also, how do you get from “thoughts” to “Creator”?

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

@khamosh21

I consider myself one whon follows the book, and try to be Muslim .  

I don't believe in this version of God you describe nor do I think it's Islamic.

This is the reason I reject hadiths... what I believe to be fabricated stories that people used irationally to justify something they don’t understand or for other reasons.

Other Muslims exist who don't believe or think these things as part of God's message .. which is what you describe so I would ask that you refrain from calling what you describe as "Islamic" as Islamic.

They are merely viewpoints of others who try and follow Islam.  Like myself we don't know all the answers, we try and do what we think is best. 

How else can Islam be split into so many sects?

 

How do you account for the hell and punishment verses in the Qur'an? The skin being burnt over and over again is in the Qur'an as well as God destroying nations...

also it seems like you are cherry picking things from Islam... rejecting hadith for example.

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