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Mahdavist

Nahjul Balagha - Authenticity of Sermon 80

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Salam alaikum. 

A few days ago Sayed Ammar Nakshawani delivered a lecture about sermon 80 from Nahjul Balagha 

Link to sermon

Link to lecture

His conclusion was that the sermon cannot be attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). His arguments seemed to be based primarily on the content of the sermon but he did also briefly address the references (I.e where the sermon has or hasn't been recorded)

In the link to the sermon above the following sources are mentioned:

(1) Sibt ibn al-Jawzi, Tadhkirah, 85;

(2) Abu Talib al-Makki, Qut, I, 282;

(3) al-Kulayni, Furu’ al-Kafi, V;

(4) al-Saduq, al-'Amali, Majlis 50;

(5) al-Mufid, al-'Ikhtisas.

I had a quick look through Majlis 50 of Sheikh al Saduqs al-'Amaali but I wasn't able to find the sermon. I was wondering if anyone has been able to find it at any of the above sources or possibly other sources. 

Also, is anyone aware of other discussions or views on the authenticity of the sermon? 

I have indeed heard the authenticity being questioned before (without clearly rejecting it) but some have also said that the sermon was specific to the battle of Jamal.

Indeed, this seems to be what Sheikh Leghaei is saying here: Link

The logical arguments are similar to those that Sayed Ammar mentions but the authenticity is only questioned and not rejected, and Sayed Ammar doesn't agree with the argument that the sermon is specific to the battle of Jamal. (for reasons of consistency  of the content but also the fact that the same sermon is apparently also attributed to another person and another incident).

I don't necessarily have an issue with the suggestion that the sermon cannot be attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام), but I think a closer look at the alternative sources and references would be required to strengthen the argument. Although Sayed Ammar raises some logical points about the content, I think one would need to cross-check all the references to support his conclusion (not saying he hasn't done this, after all a 45min lecture is probably not sufficient to go into such detail) 

Wallahu a'lam 

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18 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Salam alaikum. 

A few days ago Sayed Ammar Nakshawani delivered a lecture about sermon 80 from Nahjul Balagha 

Link to sermon

Link to lecture

His conclusion was that the sermon cannot be attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). His arguments seemed to be based primarily on the content of the sermon but he did also briefly address the references (I.e where the sermon has or hasn't been recorded)

In the link to the sermon above the following sources are mentioned:

(1) Sibt ibn al-Jawzi, Tadhkirah, 85;

(2) Abu Talib al-Makki, Qut, I, 282;

(3) al-Kulayni, Furu’ al-Kafi, V;

(4) al-Saduq, al-'Amali, Majlis 50;

(5) al-Mufid, al-'Ikhtisas.

I had a quick look through Majlis 50 of Sheikh al Saduqs al-'Amaali but I wasn't able to find the sermon. I was wondering if anyone has been able to find it at any of the above sources or possibly other sources. 

Also, is anyone aware of other discussions or views on the authenticity of the sermon? 

I have indeed heard the authenticity being questioned before (without clearly rejecting it) but some have also said that the sermon was specific to the battle of Jamal.

Indeed, this seems to be what Sheikh Leghaei is saying here: Link

The logical arguments are similar to those that Sayed Ammar mentions but the authenticity is only questioned and not rejected, and Sayed Ammar doesn't agree with the argument that the sermon is specific to the battle of Jamal. (for reasons of consistency  of the content but also the fact that the same sermon is apparently also attributed to another person and another incident).

I don't necessarily have an issue with the suggestion that the sermon cannot be attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام), but I think a closer look at the alternative sources and references would be required to strengthen the argument. Although Sayed Ammar raises some logical points about the content, I think one would need to cross-check all the references to support his conclusion (not saying he hasn't done this, after all a 45min lecture is probably not sufficient to go into such detail) 

Wallahu a'lam 

He may disagree on one interpretation of it but not on other such as Woman is deficient in practices of faith but not in belief and one who is naturally restricted to perform a task may be deficient but not of having less Iman such as a person having no hand is deficient to observe all wajibat of sujood but his worship is not rejected. 

In intelligence she is weak in analytical thinking thats why she can't be a good judge but good at multi-tasking according to modern science. 

In inheritance, she is deficient as compared to her brother but has right in the wealth of her husband. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has mentioned deficiencies of women but the previliges she hold are also deficiencies in men as well. 

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All this effort to deem this statement unreliable is because of the theological presumptions being made about the Imam (a) and the presumptions about today's world - making it hard for people to believe in such a thing. If you consider it unreliable, what are you going to do with the literally dozens of other statements from the Prophet and Imams saying the same or similar thing?

See for example (there are a lot more which are not quoted):

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On 9/4/2019 at 10:55 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

All this effort to deem this statement unreliable is because of the theological presumptions being made about the Imam (a) and the presumptions about today's world - making it hard for people to believe in such a thing. If you consider it unreliable, what are you going to do with the literally dozens of other statements from the Prophet and Imams saying the same or similar thing

Salam,

I don't think Sayed Ammar generally has a problem with ahadith which seemingly criticise women, as from memory I think he explained in the lecture that such narrations are not absolute and are to do with women during that time period. 

But, this specific sermon, Sayed Ammar found problematic since the reasoning in the hadith (missing prayers due to menstruation etc.) isn't right. 

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Guest Abbas
52 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

This isn't the only narration that mentions the same reasoning.

Amar Nakshawani would weakened all of the narrations which mention that reasoning. and he gave his arguments, the reasoning make it seem like Allah has cursed women, the reasoning contradict the quraan and it just don't make sense. 

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7 hours ago, Guest Abbas said:

the reasoning contradict the quraan and it just don't make sense. 

Where does it contradict the Qur'an? What if you have traditions that just call them deficient in intellect and religion, but does not give a reason? Will you still acknowledge that they are deficient - just without knowing the reason behind it?

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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Guest Abbas
8 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

 What if you have traditions that just call them deficient in intellect and religion, but does not give a reason? Will you still acknowledge that they are deficient - just without knowing the reason behind it?

Yes I have no problem in accepting the traditions which do not state the reason. Because that leaves the interpretation of the tradition open to being only during that time period and not accepted as a sort of curse from Allah

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5 hours ago, NEO110 said:

Nakshwani is putting a big question mark on one of our most reliable books just because one of the Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) sermons does not compliment his subjective view of the world. 

He is merely restating what anyone who studied Nahjul Balagha already knew, which is that it is a collection of sermons compiled approx 350 years after the martyrdom of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) , some of which may not necessarily be attributed to him. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 9/6/2019 at 1:07 PM, Mahdavist said:

He is merely restating what anyone who studied Nahjul Balagha already knew, which is that it is a collection of sermons compiled approx 350 years after the martyrdom of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) , some of which may not necessarily be attributed to him. 

Wallahu a'lam 

There is a big difference in stating this in a forum whereas to from a pulpit in Muharram, especially with his fame. I just feel like in the last few years he has run out of stuff to talk about and now uses controversial topics to keep his relevancy. 

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2 hours ago, NEO110 said:

There is a big difference in stating this in a forum whereas to from a pulpit in Muharram, especially with his fame. I just feel like in the last few years he has run out of stuff to talk about and now uses controversial topics to keep his relevancy. 

I fail to see the difference. Either it's true or it isn't. It can't be true on a forum but false on the pulpit. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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On 9/7/2019 at 2:27 PM, Mahdavist said:

I fail to see the difference. Either it's true or it isn't. It can't be true on a forum but false on the pulpit. 

Wallahu a'lam 

He has a platform and wide reach. Non-Muslims and Muslims from the other madhabs can and actually do tune into his lectures, and do so for a multitude of reasons. A relevant example is when the salafi crew from 'TSD' made propaganda videos including snippets of his lectures, in such a way that it complimented the agendas they want to push, which was of Taqqiyah. If I can remember correctly, it was the video exposing taqqiyah of western speakers and he was rather well exposed for being a "taqqiyah merchant" as they exclaimed. And funnily enough that was also a result of him delivering a very controversial lecture a few years back during his Muharram Ashra at Leicester where he held the first 3 Caliphs responsible for the crimes that terrorist organisations such as ISIS commit today. Whereas just a few years back he was blaming the actions of these same terrorist organisations, specifically their targeted attacks on the Shia, on other speakers who disrespect and slander the revered personalities of the Ahle Sunnah whilst being on public platforms and mimbars. The man simply has no integrity.

Now my main point being, this man has no authority on this matter and thus should not deliver such statements on a public platform which is accessible to a vast amount people, and his notoriety does not help. It is unquestionable that his statement, if taken seriously, then questions the integrity and authenticity for all the other sermons found in Nahjul Balagha, and he has somewhat successfully done that. After what? After graduating from the seminary of 'reading books for 6 hours a day'?. Or university can be said if you have preference for western institutions. In my humble opinions nor him or any other member on this forum, be it a veteran member or a seasoned lurker like me, has achieved mastery any of the sciences which could then be employed to conclude on the authenticity of a sermon from this great book which has been stamped and verified by so many great scholars. 

However, this isn't to say that one cannot discuss the sermon and do analysis of it's isnad, context and interpenetration. It is a forum at the end of the day and this is normal etiquette for one. But his platform is of a completely different nature and he should behave accordingly.

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On 9/7/2019 at 3:42 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

Some of the lectures I have heard over the last few days are much too dumbed down and repetitive.

As slaamun aleikum,

Agree with you. Ive been a convert for about 10 years now, and I notice the same thing, especially in my own community. The level of knowledge of deen is very low, and it shows in the practice especially in the youth. The people who are partly responsible for guiding us (masjid Imams, molaunas, scholars, etc) seem to be downgrading the quality and level of the knowledge in their lectures to match the already low level of the community in general. This is a complete disaster. We need ELEVATION in our knowledge and practice and if the very people/places we go to obtain that knowledge arent working on upgrading our knowledge and are instead devolving us, this is a BIG PROBLEM, and I don’t have a solution to this cuz theres too many variables:(

W/s

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In my humble opinions nor him or any other member on this forum, be it a veteran member or a seasoned lurker like me, has achieved mastery any of the sciences which could then be employed to conclude on the authenticity of a sermon from this great book which has been stamped and verified by so many great scholars. 

What exactly do you mean by 'stamped and verified by so many great scholars'? You seem to be under the false impression that Sayed Ammar has said something new here, whereas in reality our scholars have never made the kinds of claims that you seem to imagine about nahjul balagha. In fact they don't even count it among our books of narrations. 

Quote

However, this isn't to say that one cannot discuss the sermon and do analysis of it's isnad, context and interpenetration. It is a forum at the end of the day and this is normal etiquette for one. But his platform is of a completely different nature and he should behave accordingly.

This makes no sense whatsoever. There is no difference in the audience of this forum and the audience of his lectures. 

Quote

 

Wallahu a'lam

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15 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

What exactly do you mean by 'stamped and verified by so many great scholars'? You seem to be under the false impression that Sayed Ammar has said something new here, whereas in reality our scholars have never made the kinds of claims that you seem to imagine about nahjul balagha. In fact they don't even count it among our books of narrations. 

This makes no sense whatsoever. There is no difference in the audience of this forum and the audience of his lectures. 

Wallahu a'lam

If you do not understand my points, specifically about the difference between this forum and his platform, then let's stop it there. I can not formulate myself in any better way. Surely, I am comfortable on my view and you are on yours. 

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16 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

whereas in reality our scholars have never made the kinds of claims that you seem to imagine about nahjul balagha. In fact they don't even count it among our books of narrations. 

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, just wanted to post this.

post-7863-1187748339.gif.4c97ecfdd727e81652e3d708827ac1c3.gif

 

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Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, just wanted to post this.

Correct in the sense that it really was compiled by Sharif al Radhi and is not a fabrication. Also correct in the sense that Sharif al Radhi didn't write these sermons himself (as some have accused him of doing) rather he genuinely compiled them. 

What is not true however is that the entire content of nahjul balagha can be attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) with certainty. Each sermon has to be studied and verified (nothing new here, this is the case with most of the compiled works that exist)

Wallahu a'lam 

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22 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Each sermon has to be studied and verified (nothing new here, this is the case with most of the compiled works that exist)

I agree. When the chain of narrators of a one line Hadith has to be examined in our school, then how can one give blanket statements about a whole book of sermons. 

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Given the following explanation, how is the sermon in any false? Biologically, it seems to be quite true.

Quote

The second weakness is that their natural propensities do not admit of full performance of their intelligence. Therefore, nature has given them the power of intelligence only in accordance with the scope of their activities which can guide them in pregnancy, delivery, child nursing, child care and house-hold affairs. On the basis of this weakness of mind and intelligence their evidence has not been accorded the status of man's evidence ... After describing their natural weakness, Amir al-mu'minin points out the mischief of blindly following them and wrongly obeying them. He says that not to say of bad things but even if they say in regard to some good things it should not be done in a way that these should feel as if it is being done in pursuance of their wish, but rather in a way that they should realise that the good act has been performed because of its being good and that their pleasure or wish has nothing to do with it. If they have even the doubt that their pleasures has been kept in view in it they would slowly increase in their demands and would wish that they should be obeyed in all matters however evil, the inevitable consequence whereof will be destruction and ruin. Amir al-mu'minin has said a thing which is corroborated by experiences of centuries.

https://www.al-Islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-80-o-people-women-are

Isn’t this a rather true statement of women in relation to their fitrah?

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Alsalam alaikum

Qur'an is the only authentic book to exist on this planet. 

Anyone saying anything otherwise can not be sure about what they say. 

Sunni people have their Bukhari book which they call Sahi... Which means right but we know its not. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام). did not compile Nahjul Balagha... I believe Nahjul Balagha to be a sacred text and among the highest books we have... But still...Common sense is something we have that other school of religion don't in Islam. 

My heart doesn't accept that Imam Ali A. S. said that or wrote that about woman when his wife is Nisa al alameen... 

The sermon says women... Not excluding anyone. But if I am wrong... May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Ahlul Bait (عليه السلام) forgive me... 

When I first read that sermon I started to think low of myself because Imam Ali A. S. said women are deficient... But my heart doesn't accept that. Not all women are alike... This cannot be said about women in general. 

And whoever believes Nahjul Balagha to be 100 percent authentic... Its upto them... As its a known fact that Qur'an is the only book anyone can ever claim it to be 100 percent right and true... With 0 arguments. 

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"O people! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period.

As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils."

 

 

Regardless of the authenticity, when the sermon was given and to who.

With respect to the sisters, I actually find this to be true.

That is one of the strongest reasons I believe for a wife to obey husband and ask for his advice/permission. And why a father is a guardian and not the mother.

We just don't function the same way. What they lack we make up for. And what we lack they make up for.

Edited by AkhiraisReal

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22 hours ago, Northwest said:

Isn’t this a rather true statement of women in relation to their fitrah?

Salam in my opinion it's true in communities like as Iran most crimes of men after marriage are happening because of not following  this instruction that criminal from men are expressing one of their major motivation for doing crimes as the too much demands & affection of giving too much power to their wives in their life anyway if we reject it the main message of this statement is for preventing from other wars like a Jamal also in Islamic history the affection  of women  in politics between Abbasids was significant that is also it shown in Turkish propaganda about Ottomans that their Kings were under heavy influence of their wives that both of theses dynasties were enemies of our Imams & Shias & Shia goverments from Safavid era until now.

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