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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ibn Al-Shahid

Transgender and touching

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السلام عليكم

Is touching someone who identifies as Trans (and is undergoing hormone therapy) allowed?

For example: are you allowed to get a haircut from someone who isn't biologically male but is undergoing hormone therapy or identifies/looks like a man?

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...I have not been able to find anything on the subject. However, my immediate guess is that since our religion is rather pragmatic, we treat the person who follows Male laws as a male, and the person who follows Female laws as a female.

The following link is irrelevant, but it is still interesting, so I decided to share it:

http://ijtihadnet.com/sex-reassignment-surgery-in-the-view-of-the-Shia-jurists/

(wasalam)

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I've heard a narration of a ruling that says which gender a person is depends on the part that they urinate through, so from this I think that a person who has the body parts of a female and identifies as male but has not completed the surgery would be non-mehram to unrelated males and a person who identifies as female while having male body parts is considered male.

But if you don't know, assume that what they say they are is what they are. Entertaining suspicions is haram.

Edited by notme
typo

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In my view, a hermaphrodite undergoing surgery erc can be subjected to the rule notme mentioned since islamically they are allowed to do something to confirm one gender with all the preceding tests/qualifications about dominant gender if any etc.

But for an obvious male/female to change themselves... I would think if you are aware of their natural gender, treat them as so. If not, then it is only logical to go by their apparent gender.

And that...is my armchair fatwa for the day. :coffee:

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52 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Interesting. What about those who identify as queer or non-binary? Do we consider them a certain gender based on how they look?

I have never seen any hadith or ruling on this. In the absence of a ruling, it's better to err on the side of caution and treat non-binary persons as non-mehram.

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1 hour ago, habib e najjaar said:

I would think if you are aware of their natural gender, treat them as so.

If this is a non-Muslim, then you're going to get yelled at for not shaking their hands.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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2 hours ago, realizm said:

I am not letting my hair cut by a trans. 

Salam, say if you go to a barber shop and there is a trans and a male barber how would you say I am waiting for the male barber without getting the trans barber offended, given the legislation in some countries? 

I think a safe way would be to say that you have cut with the male barber before or smth :book:

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14 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Is touching someone who identifies as Trans (and is undergoing hormone therapy) allowed?

For example: are you allowed to get a haircut from someone who isn't biologically male but is undergoing hormone therapy or identifies/looks like a man?

What does Iranians say about this? Given the number of transgender people in Iran this issue must surely have come up before? (And in Pakistan and Indonesia too I think.)
 

12 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Interesting. What about those who identify as queer or non-binary? Do we consider them a certain gender based on how they look?

Isn't Queer an ideology/agenda rather than a physical/mental intersex condition?

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19 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

, say if you go to a barber shop and there is a trans and a male barber how would you say I am waiting for the male barber without getting the trans barber offended, given the legislation in some countries? 

Make an excuse, leave the salon/barber shop and go to another one or go at another time and see if someone your same sex is available.

Whenever I go to the salon for something I ask for a particular salon girl by name (there are two I prefer, I am not comfortable getting touched by every xyz) and say I like the way she does my hair or nails or whatever, so please check if she is available. If she is then fine, if not either I wait or tell them I will come at another time. So if you are a regular you can do this to avoid awkwardness. 

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On 9/2/2019 at 9:47 AM, Revert1963 said:

Isn't Queer an ideology/agenda rather than a physical/mental intersex condition?

But isn’t the main issue attraction? A homosexual woman isn’t interested in men so touching a man wouldn’t be sexual.

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Just now, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

But isn’t the main issue attraction? A homosexual woman isn’t interested in men so touching a man wouldn’t be sexual.

Then could a heterosexual man touch a homosexual man or a heterosexual woman touch a lesbian? I think you add an other dimension to the discussion now. What if the male barber is gay? Many of them look like that.
I think that normally we assume that people are heterosexual. People with a physical/mental intersex condition could have any sexual attraction, but I would think that most are heterosexual given that only 10% of a population is homosexually inclined. I don't know what I would assume about a person who supports the queer agenda. They might be bisexual, but I think it is foremost a political opinion. It is like some radical feminists who are political lesbians. Most of them have a heterosexual attraction, but they chose to be lesbians for political reasons.

Edited by Revert1963

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1 hour ago, Revert1963 said:

Then could a heterosexual man touch a homosexual man or a heterosexual woman touch a lesbian? I think you add an other dimension to the discussion now. What if the male barber is gay? Many of them look like that.
I think that normally we assume that people are heterosexual. People with a physical/mental intersex condition could have any sexual attraction, but I would think that most are heterosexual given that only 10% of a population is homosexually inclined. I don't know what I would assume about a person who supports the queer agenda. They might be bisexual, but I think it is foremost a political opinion. It is like some radical feminists who are political lesbians. Most of them have a heterosexual attraction, but they chose to be lesbians for political reasons.

So everything I’m telling you is an actual scenario that is happening where I live. I wish I was lying but the town I’m living in is very LGBTQ directed. Many barbers/hair salons advertise their place as being “Queer +++” friendly or “Queer barbers”. And it has become increasingly difficult to differentiate between a man and a woman. Before you book an appointment they actually give their preferred pronouns. So you’d be getting a haircut from a person called Samantha but their pronouns are “He/Him”.

It’s getting very complicated, especially when they claim “my pronoun is they/them/their”. I recently had to drop out of a class where the instructor emailed us “my preferred pronouns are they/them/their”. And it’s not because I’m against it, it’s just because I’d rather not deal with problems if my mouth slips and I call them by another pronoun.

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1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

It’s getting very complicated, especially when they claim “my pronoun is they/them/their”.

The stated goal of the Queer movement is to abolish gender all together. That is why they make up all thoughts of fantasy genders try to push this idea of non-binary gender. It is apparently a movement that is fashionable at the moment but it is based on falsehood. It is an academic idea that build on social-constructivism. That reality doesn't matter only narrative matter. They are trying to change society by the way people speak about things such as pronouns. In fact they are taking the other LGBT letters hostage and using them to forward this agenda. It is not in the interest of homosexuals to abolish gender because their sexual orientation is based on binary genders. It is not in the interest of true trassexuals (people with a mental intersex condition) to abolish gender because gender changes will be meaningless without gender. That is why I think the Queer movement will not last.
I don't know what you should do about your barber. Maybe find an other where it is easier to identify what gender they have.

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Interesting that I found this thread because this is a current issue in our area for High Schools.

Currently, there is a measure by the School Board to allow Transgender students to use the bathroom and gym locker room of their identity. Basically, this means transgender girls (boys with male genitalia) would be allowed to change in the girls locker rooms and use girls bathrooms. Vice versa as well for transgender boys using the boys locker rooms and bathrooms.

What's the Shia Islamic ruling on something like this? For a person with male genitalia (regardless of gender identification) to be changing clothes in front of girls, vice versa as well in the boys locker rooms.

Curious to know what Shia Jurists have ruled on issues such as this, if at all ?

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11 hours ago, Akbar673 said:

What's the Shia Islamic ruling on something like this? For a person with male genitalia (regardless of gender identification) to be changing clothes in front of girls, vice versa as well in the boys locker rooms.

Curious to know what Shia Jurists have ruled on issues such as this, if at all ?

Salam uncovering any part of body for dropping other to  Haram like as causing temptation & etc even for men in front of other men is Haram so doing it in front of opposite gender is totaly Haram(99) & for women uncovering their body with intention of joy or temptation in front of others except their wife is Haram (100)

99. مسئله: نپوشاندن هركجاي بدن به قصد به حرام انداختن ديگري حرام است.
امام، اراكى، تبريزى، خامنه اى، سيستانى، فاضل و گلپايگانى: استفتاء.
بهجت:
(12).
100. مسئله: برهنه كردن بدن به قصد لذّت و ريبه در مقابل محارم (به استثناي همسر) يا مردان ديگر حرام است.
امام، اراكى، تبريزى، خامنه اى، سيستاني و گلپايگانى: استفتاء.
بهجت:
(13).
101. مسئله: دكتر بودن از مستثنيات نيست لذا مردان بايد عورتين خود را از دكترها نيز بپوشانند مگر در مقام اضطرار. (البته به استثناء همسر).
امام، اراكى، فاضل، گلپايگاني و مكارم: با استفاده از عروه، (ستروساتر)، ص 550 549.
بهجت، تبريزي و خامنه اى: استفتاء.
سيستانى: منهاج الصالحين، (احكام تخلى)، با استفاده از قبل از مسئله 55 و (نكاح)، مسئله 20.
توضيح: آنچه از پوشش مردان استثنا شده است اضطرار است لذا اگر مردي مضطر باشد مي تواند در مقابل دكتر كشف عورت كند (مانند موارد بيماري كه بدون برهنه كردن عورتين براي دكتر مداوا ممكن نباشد) والا در غير اين صورت (مثل پيشگيري از بچه دار شدن در غير مقام اضطرار) مردان بايد عورتين خود را از ديگران بپوشانند حتي اگر ديگرى، پدر، برادر، پسر و يا از محارم، مانند خواهر، مادر، خاله و يا هركس ديگري باشد.

till number 152 is about rules costumes of women & appearance of men & women  in front of childs that can identify male & female from each other 

http://tebyan-zanjan.ir/dgbooks/feqh/library/07/06.htm

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On 9/1/2019 at 5:23 PM, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

السلام عليكم

Is touching someone who identifies as Trans (and is undergoing hormone therapy) allowed?

For example: are you allowed to get a haircut from someone who isn't biologically male but is undergoing hormone therapy or identifies/looks like a man?

You cannot tell who is and who is not trans by looking at them. There are many trans people (please, say "trans people" - they ARE people) who pass as cisgendered. Some people may or may not "pass" as easy as others and some folks don't want to.  There's also folks who look very "masculine" and they are female/ciswomen. 

On 9/1/2019 at 7:06 PM, habib e najjaar said:

In my view, a hermaphrodite undergoing surgery erc can be subjected to the rule notme mentioned since islamically they are allowed to do something to confirm one gender with all the preceding tests/qualifications about dominant gender if any etc.

But for an obvious male/female to change themselves... I would think if you are aware of their natural gender, treat them as so. If not, then it is only logical to go by their apparent gender.

And that...is my armchair fatwa for the day. :coffee:

 During my undergrad, I recall reading a text that said hermaphrodites were instructed by jurists of the time to pray behind the men and infront of the women. It's been awhile since undergrad so I don't recall where it was that I read it. It was a 

Intersexed people (more correct/not offensive term) are not the same as transgendered people.

Intersexed people exist and are born that way. And it is alot more common than people care to admit. And guess what? I don't know any intersexed person who is "visibly" intersexed to everyone because sex isn't the same as gender. Anyway, there's a documentary called "Me, My Sex, and I" thats a BBC documentary and available online on youtube that can really explain that. Sometimes babies are born with ambiguous genitals, sometimes people with vaginas have testes, people have can have different primary and secondary sex characteristics or both m/f sex characteristics.

My fiqh knowledge is rusty so I can't cite any of the maraja right now. lol 

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