Love after marriage

[Sumerian]

As an Iraqi, I can comfortably say most (by far) Iraqi marriages are arranged. And the reason for this is both religious and cultural.

Now, people have a problem with this, their opinion is they need to know and love someone to be able to marry them. To which I have seen some people reply that love should be after marriage, not before.

What is your opinion on this?

Discuss.

[Ibn al-Hussain]

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

As an Iraqi, I can comfortably say most (by far) Iraqi marriages are arranged.

What do you mean exactly by arranged marriage? Both parties have no clue about who they are marrying?

Edited August 28, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

11 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

As an Iraqi, I can comfortably say most (by far) Iraqi marriages are arranged. And the reason for this is both religious and cultural.

Now, people have a problem with this, their opinion is they need to know and love someone to be able to marry them. To which I have seen some people reply that love should be after marriage, not before.

What is your opinion on this?

Discuss.

With all due respect, this isn't English Pub Chat. Most people on here are of South Asian descent. What you are describing is pretty much the norm if anything.

6 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

What do you mean exactly by arrange marriage? Both parties have no clue about who they are marrying?

No, you have a network of aunties who act as fixers. It's usually arranged either among the community, like family friends, or within families, like cousins or extended relatives. Not unusual to have informal meetings over tea as an intro thing. Feedback follows after, if both parties are interested, proceeds to further steps.

Also in this age, not uncommon to have a whatsapp profile circulating with one's basic info. So it's not always completely blind or unknown.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

[Diaz]

I agree too, love can be after marriage. Like how many girls I know got cheated from their boyfriends? I still remember once my cousin told to my sister that she had a friend who loved a guy, they were dating for 3 years and then he told her that he want to marry her, she was so happy. He told her he will talk about it with her father but first he want to have sex with her, she agreed. The next day when she was ready to talk to her father about him, he sent a message to her saying that he won’t marry her because she is dirty. It’s been 4 years and no one know what happened to her, my cousin said she got pregnant and went to her country.   

[Sumerian]

9 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

What do you mean exactly by arrange marriage? Both parties have no clue about who they are marrying?

Just relying on one's auntie/mother/sister to find him a wife basically.

[2Timeless]

1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

Just relying on one's auntie/mother/sister to find him a wife basically.

But if the guy gets to know the potential partner and likes/loves her before the actual marriage would that still count as an 'arranged marriage' in your eyes? Even if the mother/sister/aunt found the girl to begin with.

[Ibn al-Hussain]

4 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Just relying on one's auntie/mother/sister to find him a wife basically.

What's wrong with that - that's pretty normal in all religious Muslim communities. You get to know each other before marriage - I thought you meant literally old school arranged marriage where the couple see's each other on the wedding night or something . It doesn't mean people do not get married to individuals they may have come across themselves, maybe at a local mosque, university and so on, but even that should not be prolonged and matters should be brought to the family's attention as soon as possible so that it can determined whether a marriage can take place or not - and further "getting to know each other" can take place in a safe way.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

4 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I thought you meant literally old school arrangement marriage where the couple see's each other on the wedding night or something . 

Like in East is East

Edited August 28, 2019 by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

[Sumerian]

10 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

But if the guy gets to know the potential partner and likes/loves her before the actual marriage would that still count as an 'arranged marriage' in your eyes? Even if the mother/sister/aunt found the girl to begin with.

How can you truly love someone whom it is heavily restricted to interact with them? Maybe you can have a crush and a liking. That's different, no?

[2Timeless]

5 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

How can you truly love someone whom it is heavily restricted to interact with them? Maybe you can have a crush and a liking. That's different, no?

True, but then you can never love someone before marriage if you're strictly abiding to the rules. 

[Sumerian]

2 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

True, but then you can never love someone before marriage if you're strictly abiding to the rules. 

So then love should come after marriage, true?

[2Timeless]

1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

So then love should come after marriage, true?

Well, that's disputable. But if we're talking in terms of halal and haram, I guess love should only come after marriage. Unless a couple finds a way to talk and share ideology and opinion whilst completely avoiding sin. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by 2Timeless

[notme]

2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

So then love should come after marriage, true?

What is love anyway? If it's a feeling, it comes when it comes; we can't control it much. I believe love is a set of actions, and the choice to undertake those actions can happen before marriage, but really can't be carried out fully until after marriage and cohabitation.

[Ibn al-Hussain]

17 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

How can you truly love someone whom it is heavily restricted to interact with them? Maybe you can have a crush and a liking. That's different, no?

It isn't meant to be this complicated - if you have an affinity towards someone due to their moral conduct (which you can get some idea of even through minimal interaction or through the reports of others), their looks and have some idea about their religiosity, find them to be compatible in major areas, that is more than enough.

Kids these days...they want a whole love-checklist marked off during their spouse hunt before they decide to marry someone! Leave some fun and mystery for the relationship itself - love before marriage is a joke. I believe religious Muslim youth have been afflicted with a pseuo-religiosity when it comes to marriage, and they all need a reality check for themselves.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[2Timeless]

4 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

that is more than enough.

How do you know that you're intellectually and emotionally compatible though? If it was that simple there would be no divorces and people wouldnt have so much difficulty finding a spouse because it wouldve been so easy to just marry anyone you find attractive physically and due to their moral conduct. 

[notme]

22 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

How do you know that you're intellectually and emotionally compatible though?

You don't just go in blindly! You meet with them in halal settings and talk. You ask people who know them, preferably people who know the potential spouse and you.

And then there's this thing that really improves all marriages called compromise. If both people aren't willing to compromise, the marriage is doomed. It will either be unhappy for one or both, or will end in divorce.

[Islandsandmirrors]

I believe you need to fall in love before marriage —but wait until you get married to do what people in love do. Otherwise, what’s the difference between marrying some random person on the street verses being arranged someone for you, where you’d feel little to nothing for the person and likely won’t know them well?

Marriage is between two people who are committed to spending the rest of their lives together. Obviously there must be something that would differentiate someone from another person. People who advocate for arranged marriages over estimate the importance of looking good on a paper and underestimate compatibility with regards to how the two people get along and their overall connection. You can arrange two people who seem to “tick all the boxes” on paper but they can’t stand being around each other for very long.

The arranged marriage route is rooted deeply in shame and duty, especially if you are indecisive or feel lukewarm about the other person or overlook red flags. Either they divorce or stay unhappy. The process moves rather quickly as well. Talking to someone for too long is seen as a negative. 

Marriage is a sacred union, and it’s a big deal. To be honest, no one knows what you want in a spouse but yourself. You shouldn’t trust any auntie/mother/friend to find someone for you. What do they really know about your likes and dislikes? 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Islandsandmirrors

[2Timeless]

2 minutes ago, notme said:

halal settings

Very restrictive. They're usually in parents houses in front of them, and you can only know so much about a person in between feeling so much embarrassment and pressure as both sides of the family watch you converse. It's not a very organic way to get to know someone and it can lead to false pretences (even unintentionally) and expectations. 

3 minutes ago, notme said:

If both people aren't willing to compromise, the marriage is doomed

You can’t compromise on chemistry and mere attraction. You can find someone physically attractive but if you don’t 'click' and find them attractive on an emotional and intellectual level, then it's not a great relationship at all. 

[Vindemiatrix]

1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

As an Iraqi, I can comfortably say most (by far) Iraqi marriages are arranged. And the reason for this is both religious and cultural.

Now, people have a problem with this, their opinion is they need to know and love someone to be able to marry them. To which I have seen some people reply that love should be after marriage, not before.

What is your opinion on this?

Discuss.

You'll tend to find that cultures in which arranged marriages are the norm, divorce is an absolute no no and a woman's life can be ruined because of it.... In those cultures whether or not there is love before marriage, it doesn't matter... They just kind of make it work... And if you look at older generations, the evidence is all there. 

But if you look at somewhere like America or England, divorce isn't frowned upon as much and if a couple marry without love there they're going to get a divorce unless their parents are ultra conservative or something (to be honest though how can you be ultra conservative in a western country these days?)... 

So in conclusion love is definitely needed for western marriages in other parts of the world not so much...

Personally for me I can't actually imagine marrying someone who I don't love/someone who doesn't love me back... Like how would that even work? 

[habib e najjaar]

 Despite all arguments for and against love or arranged marriages, in the end, someone being the right person at the point of marriage does not guarantee that the person will remain that way. Some change for the better, some change for the worse. Some handle tough circumstances terribly e.g financial pressure, kids, increased responsibilities and the stresses they bring in ways that can devastate a marriage. So it doesnt end at "choosing" the right person. The person would need to remain right throughout which it seems is much easier said than done.

[Ibn al-Hussain]

2 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

How do you know that you're intellectually and emotionally compatible though?

What do you mean intellectually compatible? Marriage isn't about sharing your PhD and MA subject knowledge and opinions with one another, you can determine someone is intellectually compatible-enough with a few meetings and pick up on signs. If someone thinks some idea or belief is really important to them, which can potentially cause future problems, then simply communicate that before marriage. As for emotional compatibility, you can never learn that truly until you live with one another properly - unless there are very clear apparent signs from the beginning.

[layman]

Salam,

You should know the potential person that you want to marry, objectively.  Check the potential person that you want to marry in terms of piety, akhlaq, education, acceptable looking according to you, no disease, financial, and all factors that are of concerns to you.... ,  Avoid putting love as the criteria to marry someone.  Love can blind a person. 

Then love  the person that you are married to.  

[King]

This is an individual choice, although sometimes out of your control.  There is nothing wrong with falling in love before or after marriage.

[layman]

2 hours ago, King said:

This is an individual choice, although sometimes out of your control.  There is nothing wrong with falling in love before or after marriage.

Then try to control it...  don't let the uncontrolled environment to dictate the rational thinking in making choices.

Protect the giving of "love" to those who deserve it...  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet, Ahlul Bayt, parents, mukminin, those who protect the Truth and all that bring goodness to humanity so that we live in peace.

Once you deliveres the love to someone, things, objects...your souls will follow it.  Love produces powerful attraction.  That is we love Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام).  Our souls will submit to their wills.

Many fall in love before intended  to get marry, but may fall into sinful acts.  When in love, we give up our souls to the other party easily.  If the party is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  Prophet and Ahlul Bayt...then wow! (Is good).

Control on how you want to give your love.  It is a matter of making correct choice.

That was a saying and was discussed in shiachat forum

"Don't marry the person that you love, but love the person that you are married to."

Edited August 29, 2019 by layman

[King]

31 minutes ago, layman said:

Then try to control it...  don't let the uncontrolled environment to dictate the rational thinking in making choices.

Protect the giving of "love" to those who deserve it...  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet, Ahlul Bayt, parents, mukminin, those who protect the Truth and all that bring goodness to humanity so that we live in peace.

Once you deliveres the love to someone, things, objects...your souls will follow it.  Love produces powerful attraction.  That is we love Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام).  Our souls will submit to their wills.

Many fall in love before intended  to get marry, but may fall into sinful acts.  When in love, we give up our souls to the other party easily.  If the party is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  Prophet and Ahlul Bayt...then wow! (Is good).

Control on how you want to give your love.  It is a matter of making correct choice.

That was a saying and was discussed in shiachat forum

"Don't marry the person that you love, but love the person that you are married to."

You can always do a temporary marriage to get to know someone, and there is nothing wrong with falling in love during that period.

[Islandsandmirrors]

Lol the majority of people who claim that one should embrace arranged marriages and that falling in love is a waste of emotional investment/not real have likely never been married and have no idea what a lasting and healthy relationship takes. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Islandsandmirrors

[Islandsandmirrors]

The reality is that in restrictive settings and/or arranged marriage route, most people are not open and upfront about who they are. They tend to lie a lot or exaggerate their abilities due to familial pressure and wanting to just be married to someone. Then you get married are are stuck with someone and just have to deal with it at that point.

It’s not a very healthy model of marriage nor is it romantic. Not only will the couples never get a chance to experience the love that so many non-Middle Eastern born and raised people do, but also it devalues the sacredness of marriage. Marriage is supposed to be a spiritual experience at the highest form.The only one for you whom you get to experience deep love and friendship with unlike any other.

Islam encourages love and deep friendship between spouses, and yet, culture reduces the relationship between the spouses through a limited lens of everyday duties, career advancement and child-rearing without developing the essential emotional and intellectual component of bonding. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Islandsandmirrors

[layman]

3 hours ago, King said:

You can always do a temporary marriage to get to know someone, and there is nothing wrong with falling in love during that period.

Is the love for short term or long term?  The women must think seriously when involve in temporary marriage and love.

If the immediate extension of temporary marriage will be permanent marriage.  Then the love is good for both type of marriages.

If temporary marriage is purely for legalized enjoyment, put love aside because the relationship will not last.

I am for objective understanding of the partner that you want to be with permanently and love.  We shall not be blinded by what the eyes seeing and feeling.  Love is something sacred and should not easily given without full understand to best of our ability.

We love Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we should try to understand and give that love to the best of our ability.

Edited August 29, 2019 by layman

[Abu_Zahra]

It has worked for centuries and still works quite well today for those who go into the marriage with a positive mindset and for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). There are sometimes exceptions but generally this method has stood the test of time. 

Wallahu a'lam 

 

[AStruggler]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:44 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I believe religious Muslim youth have been afflicted with a pseuo-religiosity when it comes to marriage, and they all need a reality check for themselves.

1) Can you please elaborate on what you mean by pseudo-religiosity and the youth having this? 

—-

2) Also, question-

Say there’s a guy who tries to be religious:

Well-informed of the ahkam, the laws, his obligations, and etc. He always has this passion towards Islam and Islamic knowledge and desires to follow it in the most orthodox way he can, free from falsities and influences from corrupt societal and cultural beliefs. This guy is always very aware and concerned about his spirituality and the spiritual dangers that exist in society around him, especially considering the fact that he lives in the West, where people are attacked even on the doctrinal level and a lot unfortunately suffer wounds from these attacks, at some kind of intensity, sometimes very subtly and without awareness.

2. a) Anyway, the question now is, what level of religiousity should this type of guy be okay with in a girl when he spouse hunts, and how can he assess/identify/recognize her religiosity? Say this brother always had the expectation/hope that he’d find a potential spouse that really knows her stuff when it comes to religion and who seems very aware of her spirituality and very concerned about the spiritual dangers around her in society nowadays. This girl would be the type who practices the proper type of physical hijab, whether with eastern clothes or western, and also the social hijab. Also, a girl who knows it’s not okay to wear sandals without socks in front of non mahram . However, he soon realizes that nowadays a lot of girls around him do genuinely love their religion and on the whole are “religious”, but follow religion with sometimes an unrecognized cultural influence to it and also lack a deep understanding and practice of it. They also just practice a mediocre version hijab, a type of hijab where generally it may be modest but it may not be the most correct or acceptable when honestly assessing it based on the actual Islamic laws. It may be free of things like make-up and excessive revealing of the figure but still kind of reveals and makes the girl appear adorned. With this level of hijab, it may also be okay to expose the feet and maybe a little bit of the area before the wrist too.

2.b) Would it be a good idea to move forward with this type of girl (girl who values religion at a significant level but does western style alright hijab and may not be as informed about religion as the guy, but she has great character, a charming personality, a kind heart, and the guy has a good affinity towards her) with the intention that after marriage he would gradually influence her in a kind and gentle way to get to the path to her full-out religious potential.

2.c) If so, the challenge would then be in identifying if this girl has that initial potential/raw/ungroomed-talent to change a bit religiously. So the another question would then be, how can a religious guy determine if this girl has that initial talent/potential? 

Edited August 30, 2019 by AStruggler

[notme]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:12 PM, Islandsandmirrors said:

most people are not open and upfront about who they are. They tend to lie a lot or exaggerate their abilities due to familial pressure and wanting to just be married to someone. Then you get married are are stuck with someone and just have to deal with it at that point.

So dishonesty is the problem, not arranged marriage itself?

Arranged or not, honesty (especially in the beginning) is vital to the success of a marriage. I don't mean your potential spouse needs to know everything you've ever done and every thought you've ever had, but they do need to know with full openness what is important to you, what you value in life and in a partner, what are your goals and dreams, what kind of person you are.

[hasani]

What do people know about love? Imam jafar Sadiq has said love should be after marriage. 

My advise is people should wait after marriage for such things.

[AStruggler]

14 hours ago, AStruggler said:

1) Can you please elaborate on what you mean by pseudo-religiosity and the youth having this? 

—-

2) Also, question-

Say there’s a guy who tries to be religious:

Well-informed of the ahkam, the laws, his obligations, and etc. He always has this passion towards Islam and Islamic knowledge and desires to follow it in the most orthodox way he can, free from falsities and influences from corrupt societal and cultural beliefs. This guy is always very aware and concerned about his spirituality and the spiritual dangers that exist in society around him, especially considering the fact that he lives in the West, where people are attacked even on the doctrinal level and a lot unfortunately suffer wounds from these attacks, at some kind of intensity, sometimes very subtly and without awareness.

2. a) Anyway, the question now is, what level of religiousity should this type of guy be okay with in a girl when he spouse hunts, and how can he assess/identify/recognize her religiosity? Say this brother always had the expectation/hope that he’d find a potential spouse that really knows her stuff when it comes to religion and who seems very aware of her spirituality and very concerned about the spiritual dangers around her in society nowadays. This girl would be the type who practices the proper type of physical hijab, whether with eastern clothes or western, and also the social hijab. Also, a girl who knows it’s not okay to wear sandals without socks in front of non mahram . However, he soon realizes that nowadays a lot of girls around him do genuinely love their religion and on the whole are “religious”, but follow religion with sometimes an unrecognized cultural influence to it and also lack a deep understanding and practice of it. They also just practice a mediocre version hijab, a type of hijab where generally it may be modest but it may not be the most correct or acceptable when honestly assessing it based on the actual Islamic laws. It may be free of things like make-up and excessive revealing of the figure but still kind of reveals and makes the girl appear adorned. With this level of hijab, it may also be okay to expose the feet and maybe a little bit of the area before the wrist too.

2.b) Would it be a good idea to move forward with this type of girl (girl who values religion at a significant level but does western style alright hijab and may not be as informed about religion as the guy, but she has great character, a charming personality, a kind heart, and the guy has a good affinity towards her) with the intention that after marriage he would gradually influence her in a kind and gentle way to get to the path to her full-out religious potential.

2.c) If so, the challenge would then be in identifying if this girl has that initial potential/raw/ungroomed-talent to change a bit religiously. So the another question would then be, how can a religious guy determine if this girl has that initial talent/potential? 

@Ibn al-Hussain sooo, you don’t want to explain what you mean by pseudo-religiosity and share your thoughts on the other stuff then , just messing lol. I feel the stuff I talked about in the second part of my post is a pretty legit issue for brothers in the West no...? 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by AStruggler

[Lilly14]

On 8/28/2019 at 11:19 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

What do you mean intellectually compatible? Marriage isn't about sharing your PhD and MA subject knowledge and opinions with one another, you can determine someone is intellectually compatible-enough with a few meetings and pick up on signs. If someone thinks some idea or belief is really important to them, which can potentially cause future problems, then simply communicate that before marriage. As for emotional compatibility, you can never learn that truly until you live with one another properly - unless there are very clear apparent signs from the beginning.

Don't some couples (after getting parents approval for marriage) communicate via text before the marriage these days, in order to get to know each other without physically hanging out. I think that could ease the worry of intellectual compatibility a bit.

[Lilly14]

On 8/30/2019 at 6:54 AM, AStruggler said:

1) Can you please elaborate on what you mean by pseudo-religiosity and the youth having this? 

—-

2) Also, question-

Say there’s a guy who tries to be religious:

Well-informed of the ahkam, the laws, his obligations, and etc. He always has this passion towards Islam and Islamic knowledge and desires to follow it in the most orthodox way he can, free from falsities and influences from corrupt societal and cultural beliefs. This guy is always very aware and concerned about his spirituality and the spiritual dangers that exist in society around him, especially considering the fact that he lives in the West, where people are attacked even on the doctrinal level and a lot unfortunately suffer wounds from these attacks, at some kind of intensity, sometimes very subtly and without awareness.

2. a) Anyway, the question now is, what level of religiousity should this type of guy be okay with in a girl when he spouse hunts, and how can he assess/identify/recognize her religiosity? Say this brother always had the expectation/hope that he’d find a potential spouse that really knows her stuff when it comes to religion and who seems very aware of her spirituality and very concerned about the spiritual dangers around her in society nowadays. This girl would be the type who practices the proper type of physical hijab, whether with eastern clothes or western, and also the social hijab. Also, a girl who knows it’s not okay to wear sandals without socks in front of non mahram . However, he soon realizes that nowadays a lot of girls around him do genuinely love their religion and on the whole are “religious”, but follow religion with sometimes an unrecognized cultural influence to it and also lack a deep understanding and practice of it. They also just practice a mediocre version hijab, a type of hijab where generally it may be modest but it may not be the most correct or acceptable when honestly assessing it based on the actual Islamic laws. It may be free of things like make-up and excessive revealing of the figure but still kind of reveals and makes the girl appear adorned. With this level of hijab, it may also be okay to expose the feet and maybe a little bit of the area before the wrist too.

2.b) Would it be a good idea to move forward with this type of girl (girl who values religion at a significant level but does western style alright hijab and may not be as informed about religion as the guy, but she has great character, a charming personality, a kind heart, and the guy has a good affinity towards her) with the intention that after marriage he would gradually influence her in a kind and gentle way to get to the path to her full-out religious potential.

2.c) If so, the challenge would then be in identifying if this girl has that initial potential/raw/ungroomed-talent to change a bit religiously. So the another question would then be, how can a religious guy determine if this girl has that initial talent/potential? 

You marry someone as is. Not on who they say they will transform into after marriage, or not on who you want to transform them into, because they might not change later. You need to consider if you would be truly happy living with her as your spouse as she is now, if she ends up never changing. Also you'd have to communicate to her that you want a spouse who is willing to truly improve her Deen as you also try to truly improve your deen. She might not even be interested in doing that, so she would know that you're not right for her. But even if she agrees, doesn't mean it's certain she will improve, improve to your standard, or improve and stay that way. 

It reminds me of how a Muslim woman can't marry non-Muslim man (unless the man becomes Muslim first) and a Muslim man can't marry polytheists unless she becomes Muslim or other Ahleh Kitab.