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In the Name of God بسم الله
SoRoUsH

Question: Ampleness of Women?

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Salam, 

 مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ مُعَمَّرِ بْنِ خَلَّادٍ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ عَلِيَّ بْنَ مُوسَى الرِّضَا ع يَقُولُ ثَلَاثٌ مِنْ سُنَنِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ الْعِطْرُ وَ أَخْذُ الشَّعْرِ وَ كَثْرَةُ الطَّرُوقَةِ 

Three traditions of messengers!

What exactly does كَثْرَةُ الطَّرُوقَةِ  imply? I've read different translations: "ampleness of relationships with women" or "ampleness of women" or "ampleness of marriages" or ...

None of them make complete sense to me. What is the best way to understand this phrase? 

Best, 

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Salam. Since Islam is a moderate religion, perhaps the meaning is "frequent" -- a little bit between "always" and "never". 

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35 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

It is a metonym - if it is read as Kathra al-Taruqa it means "a lot of wives" (every woman is a Taruqa of her husband), and if it is read as Turuqa it means "a lot of sex".

Thank you.

What's a Taruqa?

Perhaps we can reconcile the two by thinking about Muta'a: a lot of sex with a lot of (temporary) "wives."

We cannot legally have more than four permanent wives, and we are encouraged to have only one. Therefore, "a lot of wives" can't imply permanent wives, which can only leave temporary wives. Therefore, a lot of sex, with a lot of wives. 

What do you think?

Or do you think it makes more sense to see it as "a lot of sex with one's permanent wife or wives"?

Edited by SoRoUsH

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Nashwān bin Sāʾid al-Ḥimyāri said in Shams al-Ulūm:

الطَّرُوقَةُ]: طَرُوقَةُ الفَحْلِ: أُنْثَاه]

وَنَاقَةٌ طَرُوقَةُ الفْحَل: وَهِيَّ الَّتِي قَدْ بَلغَتْ أنْ يَطْرُقُهَا الفَحْل

Also in Mirʾāt al-Uqūl, volume 20, page 6.

فِي النِهَاية: طَرُوقَةُ الفَحْلِ، أي، يَعْلُو الفَحْلُ مِثْلهَا فِي سِنِّهَا، وَهِيَ فَعُولةٌ بِمَعْنَى مَفْعُولة

أي، مَرْكُوبَةٌ لِلفَحْل، وَمِنْهُ الحَدِيث: كَانَ يُصْبِحُ جُنُباً مِنْ غَيْرِ طَرُوقَةٍ، أي، زَوْجَة، وَكُلُّ امْرَأةٍ طَرُوقَةُ زَوْجِهَا، وَكُلُّ نَاقَةٍ طَرُوقَةُ فَحْلِهَا

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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24 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Nashwān bin Sāʾid al-Ḥimyāri said in Shams al-Ulūm:

الطَّرُوقَةُ]: طَرُوقَةُ الفَحْلِ: أُنْثَاه]

وَنَاقَةٌ طَرُوقَةُ الفْحَل: وَهِيَّ الَّتِي قَدْ بَلغَتْ أنْ يَطْرُقَهَا الفَحْل

Also in Mirʾāt al-Uqūl, volume 20, page 6.

فِي النِهَاية: طَرُوقَةُ الفَحْلِ، أي، يَعْلُو الفَحْلُ مِثْلهَا فِي سِنِّهَا، وَهِيَ فَعُولةٌ بِمَعْنَى مَفْعُولة

أي، مَرْكُوبَةٌ لِلفَحْل، وَمِنْهُ الحَدِيث: كَانَ يُصْبِحُ جُنُباً مِنْ غَيْرِ طَرُوقَةٍ، أي، زَوْجَة، وَكُلُّ امْرَأةٍ طَرُوقَةُ زَوْجِهَا، وَكُلُّ نَاقَةٍ طَرُوقَةُ فَحْلِهَا

Can you translate this to English, please?

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3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Perhaps we can reconcile the two by thinking about Muta'a: a lot of sex with a lot of (temporary) "wives."

Why Mut'ah? The most common alternative besides marriage was slaves - not mut'ah. 

3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

We cannot legally have more than four permanent wives, and we are encouraged to have only one. Therefore, "a lot of wives" can't imply permanent wives, which can only leave temporary wives. Therefore, a lot of sex, with a lot of wives. 

There are traditions that can be used to indicate the encouragement of more than 1 permanent wife as well. I believe in this tradition even if the word is Taruqa it still implies frequent sex, and not many wives (even though it will be translated as "many wives"). This is because when we look at some other traditions, we see that the concentration is on the ability to have sex, rather than number of wives:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ أَوْ غَيْرِهِ عَنْ سَعْدِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ جَهْمٍ قَالَ: رَأَيْتُ أَبَا الْحَسَنِ ع اخْتَضَبَ فَقُلْتُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ اخْتَضَبْتَ فَقَالَ نَعَمْ إِنَّ التَّهْيِئَةَ مِمَّا يَزِيدُ فِي عِفَّةِ النِّسَاءِ وَ لَقَدْ تَرَكَ النِّسَاءُ الْعِفَّةَ بِتَرْكِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ التَّهْيِئَةَ ثُمَّ قَالَ أَ يَسُرُّكَ أَنْ تَرَاهَا عَلَى مَا تَرَاكَ عَلَيْهِ إِذَا كُنْتَ عَلَى غَيْرِ تَهْيِئَةٍ قُلْتُ لَا قَالَ فَهُوَ ذَاكَ ثُمَّ قَالَ مِنْ أَخْلَاقِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ التَّنَظُّفُ وَ التَّطَيُّبُ وَ حَلْقُ الشَّعْرِ وَ كَثْرَةُ الطَّرُوقَةِ ثُمَّ قَالَ كَانَ لِسُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ دَاوُدَ ع أَلْفُ امْرَأَةٍ فِي قَصْرٍ وَاحِدٍ ثَلَاثُمِائَةٍ مَهِيرَةٌ وَ سَبْعُمِائَةٍ سُرِّيَّةٌ وَ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص لَهُ بُضْعُ أَرْبَعِينَ رَجُلًا وَ كَانَ عِنْدَهُ تِسْعُ نِسْوَةٍ وَ كَانَ يَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِنَّ فِي كُلِّ يَوْمٍ وَ لَيْلَة

 From Da'aim al-Islam - for what it's worth:

وَ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ ع أَنَّهُ قَالَ: أَرْبَعَةٌ مِنْ أَخْلَاقِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ التَّنَظُّمُ وَ التَّطَيُّبُ وَ حَلْقُ الْجَسَدِ يَعْنِي بِالنُّورَةِ وَ كَثْرَةُ الطَّرُوقَةِ يَعْنِي النِّسَاءَ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنَ دَاوُدَ ع فَقَالَ كَانَ لَهُ أَلْفُ امْرَأَةٍ فِي قَصْرٍ وَاحِدٍ سَبْعُمِائَةِ سُرِّيَّةٍ وَ ثَلَاثُمِائَةِ مَهِيرَةٍ قِيلَ لَهُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ كَيْفَ يَقْوَى عَلَى هَؤُلَاءِ قَالَ جَعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ قُوَّةَ بِضْعَةٍ وَ أَرْبَعِينَ رَجُلًا وَ يُجْعَلُ ذَلِكَ لِلنَّبِيِّ ع قِيلَ لَهُ لِعَلِيٍّ ع فَإِنَّهُ اسْتَحْيَا ذِكْرَ عَلِيٍّ لِأُبُوَّتِهِ وَ مَكَانِ فَاطِمَةَ ع فَأَمْسَكَ وَ لَمْ يَقُلْ شَيْئاً

Sulayman (a), Muhammad (p), and 'Ali (a) all had different number of wives, yet the point being made is that each were given the power of forty men (although the Imam does not answer this question with respects to Imam Ali due to the shyness he felt knowing he would be implicating Fatima (a) in his answer).

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Thank you.

As far as I know, we're never told how many temporary wives the Imams and the Prophet had. We're just told that Muta'a is a Sunna. So, though having lots of sex with one's permanent wives may seem like the more correct view, we can't completely dismiss the notion of lots of sex with lots of temporary wives (or slaves) either. 

In addition, the narration doesn't present an either-or scenario, lots of sex or lots of wives. The option of both is available, too.

Edited by SoRoUsH

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As I've stated elsewhere before, the childish, embarrassed, and timid reactions to and comments about discussions regarding sex and Muta'a is a symptom of a bigger problem. 

We've unthoughtfully and subconsciously accepted and internalized a non-Shia standpoint on the topic of sex. 

The topic of sex is related to other metaphysical topics, such as ontological complementarity between the genders, energy works, ontological interconnectivity among humans, intermingling of the souls and etc. 

 

Our Imams and Prophet have encouraged lots of sex (and perhaps with lots of women), not because they're perverts, but because there are significant positive effects for the self and the community as a result of having lots of permissible sex. 

We need to step beyond the physical aspects and ponder upon the metaphysical aspects of sex and how it's about much more than just physical pleasure. Physical pleasure is part of it, but there's more. There's the Zahir of sex, and there's the Batin of sex. And it seems many many people within our communities can't move past the Zahir and communicate this inability via giggles and silly comments.

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This thread gave me answer for a question which was bothering me. People, who shamelessly flirt with opposite gender are repulsed by my love for food, they call me animal and slave of desires. I was very confused, I think love of opposite gender is more embarrasing than love of food. I used to think these people have the audacity to call me slave of desires when I see them getting mesmerized and willing to do anything for opposite gender and they have no control over their desires when it comes to opposite gender. It looks like Shia Islam has no place for shy, reserved and modest people. That's why all modest people get labelled as homosexuals. Good luck in dreams of making the whole world Shia. I wonder how many people will take a religion seriously which recommends lots of sex. I honestly find this idea disgusting. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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1 hour ago, rkazmi33 said:

I wonder how many people will take a religion seriously which recommends lots of sex. 

Quite a lot I bet. Many people believe religion has a repressive attitude towards sex (which they find to be immoral), and while this may be true for some religions, unfortunately Islam gets painted with the same brush. 

While I haven't seen a study on this yet, I do speculate that a lot of discussions around sex became taboo in the Islamic world due to Colonialism and Victorian attitudes. By the time the West went through their crazy "sexual revolution" - essentially a rebellion - they had already tarnished perspectives of sex in the Muslim world. Otherwise, anyone who reads the Islamic tradition on the matter will see how much emphasis exists on sex.

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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@Ibn al-Hussain It is still one of the desires, and Islam talks so much about going against your desires: eating, sleeping, talking, laughing, Islam recommends less is better, so I don't understand why different attitude about one desire. Also, different people struggle with different kinds of temptations, and if Islam is allowing one kind of temptation, then it really seems like this is a religion for only one kind of people. It seems unfair to me. 

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Islam commands going against desires for Haram things, not all things. 

Many of us already know that sex is good and necessary for physical and mental health. Shia Islam teaches that sex, lots of it, is good for our spiritual health too. 

We ought to abandon this Manichean and Catholic Dualism of Spirit-versus-Flesh.

The pleasure that accompanies food, sex, and etc are blessings from God. We desire them and we're thankful for them.

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14 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I do speculate that a lot of discussions around sex became taboo in the Islamic world due to Colonialism and Victorian attitudes

Our false standpoint against sex is most likely connected to early Islam's interaction with Christians/Catholics. 

In Catholicism celibacy is praised and seen as a gift of God. Their most holy people, saints and nuns and priests, ought to be celibates. 

In addition, considering the presence of Manicheanism in Persia and its surrounding, and their misguided Dualism, early Muslims may have picked up this false notion. 

And unfortunately, (some) Sufis perpetuate this false idea of fighting against all desires. 

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4 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

While I haven't seen a study on this yet, I do speculate that a lot of discussions around sex became taboo in the Islamic world due to Colonialism and Victorian attitudes. By the time the West went through their crazy "sexual revolution" - essentially a rebellion - they had already tarnished perspectives of sex in the Muslim world. Otherwise, anyone who reads the Islamic tradition on the matter will see how much emphasis exists on sex.

Brother I really feel that this issue warrants for a sequel to Shiachat Wars - A new Hope of Mutah

On 8/26/2019 at 3:38 PM, SoRoUsH said:

We're just told that Muta'a is a Sunna.

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Guest Mr. basquets

I sympathize with woman who don’t like muta and polygamy, but when Shia women are against frequent sex in monogamous permanent marriage; they have crossed the line! its zulm. We men spend 24/7 lowering our gaze in this satanic lands only for you to do zulm on us by refusing frequent sex. my brothers never marry a woman with low desires. go marry a convert.

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Indulgence (whether in eating, drinking or having sex) is disliked and disapproved in Islam. There is no difference between the greed for eating and the greed for sex except that the latter is worse. The narration below recommends people to eat, drink and have intercourse in moderation and if they don’t do it, what they do is haram:

اَ تَری اللّه َ اَعْطی مَنْ اَعْطی مِنْ كَرامَتِهِ عَلَيْهِ، وَ مَنَعَ مَنْ مَـنَـعَ مِنْ هَوانٍ بِهِ عَلَيْهِ؟! لا، وَ لكِنَّ المالَ مالُ اللّه ِ يَضَعُهُ عِنْدَ الرَّجُلِ وَ دائِعَ، وَ جَوَّزَ لَهُمْ أنْ يَاْكُلوا قَصْدا وَ يَلْبَسوا قَصْدا وَ يَنْـكِحوا قَصْدا وَ يَرْكَبوا قَصْدا، وَ يَعودُوا بِما سِوی ذالِكَ عَلی فُقَراءِ الْمُؤْمِنينَ وَ يَلُمُّوا بِهِ شَعَثَهُمْ، فَمَنْ فَعَلَ ذالِكَ كانَ ما يَأْ كُلُ حَلالاً وَ يَشْرَبُ حَلالاً وَ يَرْكَبُ وَ يَنْـكِحُ حَلالاً، وَ مَنْ عَدا ذالِكَ كانَ عَلَيْهِ حَراما. اَ تَرَی اللّه َ اَ ئْتَمَنَ رَجُلاً عَلی مالٍ لَهُ اَنْ يَشْتَریَ فَرَسا بِعَشْرَةِ آلافِ دِرْهَمٍ وَ يُجْزيهِ فَرَسٌ بِعِشْرينَ دِرْهَما؟! وَ قالَ: «لا تُسْرِفوا اِنَّهُ لا يُحِبُّ الْمُسْرِفينَ»؟!

فكر می كنی اگر خداوند به كسی چیزی داده، به این خاطر است كه او در پیشگاه خدا احترام دارد؟ و اگر به كسی چیزی نداده، از آن روست كه او در نظر خدا، خوار و بی مقدار است؟ نه! بلكه مال و ثروت، از آنِ خداست كه نزد انسان به امانت می گذارد و به انسان ها اجازه می دهد كه با رعایت میانه روی، بخورند و بپوشند و ازدواج كنند و وسیله سواری سوار شوند و اضافه آن را به مؤمنانِ نیازمند بدهند و به این وسیله، آنها را از پریشانی برهانند. پس هر كس چنین كند، آنچه می خورد و می نوشد و سوار می شود و ازدواج می كند، حلال است و هر كس از این حد تجاوز كند، بر او حرام است... آیا خیال می كنی اگر خداوند مالی را به امانت به كسی بدهد، او حق دارد اسبی را به ده هزار دِرهم بخرد، در حالی كه اسب بیست دِرهمی هم برایش كافی است؟... و حال آن كه خداوند فرموده است: «اسراف نكنید كه خدا اسرافكاران را دوست ندارد»؟!

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30 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Indulgence (whether in eating, drinking or having sex) is disliked and disapproved in Islam. There is no difference between the greed for eating and the greed for sex except that the latter is worse. The narration below recommends people to eat, drink and have intercourse in moderation and if they don’t do it, what they do is haram:

اَ تَری اللّه َ اَعْطی مَنْ اَعْطی مِنْ كَرامَتِهِ عَلَيْهِ، وَ مَنَعَ مَنْ مَـنَـعَ مِنْ هَوانٍ بِهِ عَلَيْهِ؟! لا، وَ لكِنَّ المالَ مالُ اللّه ِ يَضَعُهُ عِنْدَ الرَّجُلِ وَ دائِعَ، وَ جَوَّزَ لَهُمْ أنْ يَاْكُلوا قَصْدا وَ يَلْبَسوا قَصْدا وَ يَنْـكِحوا قَصْدا وَ يَرْكَبوا قَصْدا، وَ يَعودُوا بِما سِوی ذالِكَ عَلی فُقَراءِ الْمُؤْمِنينَ وَ يَلُمُّوا بِهِ شَعَثَهُمْ، فَمَنْ فَعَلَ ذالِكَ كانَ ما يَأْ كُلُ حَلالاً وَ يَشْرَبُ حَلالاً وَ يَرْكَبُ وَ يَنْـكِحُ حَلالاً، وَ مَنْ عَدا ذالِكَ كانَ عَلَيْهِ حَراما. اَ تَرَی اللّه َ اَ ئْتَمَنَ رَجُلاً عَلی مالٍ لَهُ اَنْ يَشْتَریَ فَرَسا بِعَشْرَةِ آلافِ دِرْهَمٍ وَ يُجْزيهِ فَرَسٌ بِعِشْرينَ دِرْهَما؟! وَ قالَ: «لا تُسْرِفوا اِنَّهُ لا يُحِبُّ الْمُسْرِفينَ»؟!

فكر می كنی اگر خداوند به كسی چیزی داده، به این خاطر است كه او در پیشگاه خدا احترام دارد؟ و اگر به كسی چیزی نداده، از آن روست كه او در نظر خدا، خوار و بی مقدار است؟ نه! بلكه مال و ثروت، از آنِ خداست كه نزد انسان به امانت می گذارد و به انسان ها اجازه می دهد كه با رعایت میانه روی، بخورند و بپوشند و ازدواج كنند و وسیله سواری سوار شوند و اضافه آن را به مؤمنانِ نیازمند بدهند و به این وسیله، آنها را از پریشانی برهانند. پس هر كس چنین كند، آنچه می خورد و می نوشد و سوار می شود و ازدواج می كند، حلال است و هر كس از این حد تجاوز كند، بر او حرام است... آیا خیال می كنی اگر خداوند مالی را به امانت به كسی بدهد، او حق دارد اسبی را به ده هزار دِرهم بخرد، در حالی كه اسب بیست دِرهمی هم برایش كافی است؟... و حال آن كه خداوند فرموده است: «اسراف نكنید كه خدا اسرافكاران را دوست ندارد»؟!

First and foremost, I presented a narration with a saheeh sanad. Your narration isn't saheeh as far as I can tell. So, I won't comment in it, and I won't use it as a factor for or against any position. 

Second, encouraging lots of sex, as Imams do in saheeh narrations, does not imply being greedy about sex. Greed for anything is forbidden. This is obvious. However, whether we talk about food or sex or other desires, quantification of them depends on the individual. Lots of food for one individual may not be so for another individual. 

We can think of a pernissible range. And for sex, we are encouraged via authentic narrations to aim for the high end of the pernissible range. Lots of sex (and perhaps with lots of women/pernissible wives.)

Who will determine what is a moderate amount of sex? 3 times per week? 2 times per day? 7 times per month? 

All we know, through authentic narrations, is to have lots of sex, and each individual, in consultation with his wife or wives, can determine what that entails.

Don't conflate concepts. 

27 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Prophets were not lustful people. They were so busy guiding the people or (in the case of the Prophet Sulayman) ruling the kingdom that they never found the opportunity to have 100 wives!!

This is just childish and silly. Of course Prophets are not lustful! However, having lots of permissible sex is not an indication of lustfulness. The feeling of lust, that desire, towards one's partner is a blessing from God. Women/wives are encouraged/commanded to not be shy at all in front of their husbands, precisely to trigger the lust within. 

Again, don't view sex or lust through a Catholic or Christian lens. Lust is a blessing, a prerequisite for good sex. And sex, lots of it, with permissible partners is encouraged, via saheeh narrations.

You can be very busy in life, but if you're physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy, you can always make enough time for sex, lots of it.

 

Get out of the conventional thinking box. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Mr.. basquets said:

its zulm. We men spend 24/7 lowering our gaze in this satanic lands only for you to do zulm on us by refusing frequent sex. my brothers never marry a woman with low desires.

Stop complaining and get another wife if you feel so bad about it. Your wife is not entitled to food and clothing if she is habitually turning down her husband without a good reason. 

Islam gave solutions. People either don't know or don't follow. Smh.

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Guest Mr.. basquets
3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

First and foremost, I presented a narration with a saheeh sanad. Your narration isn't saheeh as far as I can tell. So, I won't comment in it, and I won't use it as a factor for or against any position. 

Second, encouraging lots of sex, as Imams do in saheeh narrations, does not imply being greedy about sex. Greed for anything is forbidden. This is obvious. However, whether we talk about food or sex or other desires, quantification of them depends on the individual. Lots of food for one individual may not be so for another individual. 

We can think of a pernissible range. And for sex, we are encouraged via authentic narrations to aim for the high end of the pernissible range. Lots of sex (and perhaps with lots of women/pernissible wives.)

Who will determine what is a moderate amount of sex? 3 times per week? 2 times per day? 7 times per month? 

All we know, through authentic narrations, is to have lots of sex, and each individual, in consultation with his wife or wives, can determine what that entails.

Brother with food its about what is needed. This is how you know what is too much .... if you are eating so much that its bad for your health or you are more than full then you know how much is too much. Hadiths say eat until stomach has a little space left. 

if we use the same examples or qiyas then sex which is too much is when its harmful for you or you overdone it and can’t do no more. so like food do it until you got some gas left for tomorrow. I think no wife should say no too half an hour a day! I think like 4 times everyday is bad for you. when wife says once a week or once a month I feel sick about it. make a man explode from inside.

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30 minutes ago, Guest Mr... basquets said:

if we use the same examples or qiyas then sex

We do not use Qiyas. 

Obviously, there's a difference between "too much" and "much." We have lots of sex, not just to quench a need, but to bond and connect. Again, obviously, having too much sex to the point that one's health is ini danger is not what the narration states. There's a permissible range, and we ought to aim for the high end of the range.  

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Here's another saheeh narration: 

ـ وعنه ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حفص بن البختري ، عن أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : ما احب من دنياكم إلا النساء والطيب . 

And from him from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hafs b. al-Bakhtari from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  he said: I love naught from your world but women and perfume.

 

Think about this!

Is this lustful? Is this perverted? 

Imagine you, or your brother, or your male friends, or your sons say this. 

How would you react? What would your gut reaction be? Would you consider them deviated? chasing their worldly desires? 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Imagine you, or your brother, or your male friends, or your sons say this. 

How would you react? What would your gut reaction be?

I will have them return any debts they owe me, tbvh.

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