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In the Name of God بسم الله
Jaabir

Was the Zulfiqar Really Double-Edged?

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After watching this clip on Al Arabiya, I tried to find a reliable narration of Imam Ali's sword truly being double-edged but was unable to find anything. In the video, the man says that Imam Ali's real sword is said to be jagged, similar to a saw. He then says that the dagger that Abu Lu'lu'ah used to kill Umar b. al-Khattab was actually double-edged, and apparently that's why it's so popular amongst the Shi'a.

I only found this in Bihar al-Anwar:

علان الكليني رفعه إلى أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: إنما سمي سيف أمير - المؤمنين عليه السلام ذو الفقار لأنه كان في وسطه خطة في طوله مشبهة بفقار الظهر، وزعم الأصمعي أنه كان فيه ثماني عشرة فقارة
تاريخ أبي يعقوب: كان طوله سبعة أشبار وعرضه شبر، في وسطه كالفقار

According to whoever edited the wikishia page on the Zulfiqar, they also could not find any reliable reports on it being double edged (although the source in the footnotes looks like a book of the Waqifiyah): http://ar.wikishia.net/view/ذو_الفقار

So the question is: do we have any reliable narrations describing the Zulfiqar being double-edged? I know of a few people that would get pretty upset if they found out their Zulfiqar tattoo is inaccurately attributed to Imam Ali...

 

Edited by Jaabir

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58 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

and I'm not sure why we need a mu'tabar hadith on what a sword looked like.

Edited 48 minutes ago by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

Completely agree, but you would be surprised what people have to have in front of them in order to be satisfied these days.

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image.png  https://www.pinterest.com/haseebur56/sacred-relics-at-topkapi-palace/  

Salam it also said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) received Zulfiqar from Prophet Muhammad (pbu) when he was protecting life of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) in Uhud &that before that Zulfiqar was sword of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) that wahn sword of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) broke in his defense in Uhud , he gave his sword to him 

15 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

The swords of Abu Bakr and Umar in Topkapi Palace are straight line the image above, if you believe in the authenticity of such items in that museum.

image.jpeg

 

Evangelism Analysis

In the Old Testament, in the book of Psalms, which is attributed to Prophet David (عليه السلام) and is widely known in Islamic culture as "Zabur" , chapters 149, phrases 1-7:

1 Halloween! Praise the Lord with a new song and praise him in the holy community! ... 4 because God is pleased with His people. It makes the poor s beautiful with rescue  5 The saints boast of the glory. And worship on their beds. 6 May the high praises of God be in their mouths. And the two-edged sword in their hand. 7 to avenge the Gentiles and to discipline the tribes ....

We see in the above verses the sixth verse which says, The high praises of God in their mouths, and the two-edged sword in their hand. Scholars believe that the high praise of God in their mouths is the sound of the sound of Azan, which many people have become Muslims for because of this call. Today, in many Western countries, the dispensation of Azan from Islamic mosques has been banned because of its widespread influence.

Obviously, in Christianity, we do not have the high praise that is in their mouths. The loud bang from the churches is nothing but the sound of a bell in which there is no praise to God.

The Hebrew text of Psalm 149: 6 reads as follows: "רֹומְמֹות בִּגְרֹונָם בִּגְרֹונָם פִּֽ פִיפִיֹּות בְּיָדָֽם", in this verse the Hebrew word ِِِِِ ،, the meaning of the sword 2 (wə · ḥe · reḇ), and the Hebrew word piُvُt, meaning zulfiqar or The two buttons are פִּֽיפִיּ֣וֹת (pî · p̄î · yō · wṯ), (Strong, 2011).

 

English translations

The word یوיפִיּ֣וֹת in the sense of Zulfiqar is so explicit that most of the famous translations translate it to Zulfiqar or the double-edged sword (double-edged, dual-edged). For example you can find translations of NIV, ESV, NASB, KJB, ISV, NET, ASV, AKJV, WEB and more.

Persian translations

In the Persian translations of the Bible, the same concept is also found:

The Old Translation: May God's high praise be in their mouths and the two-edged sword in their hands (Hamadani, Glenn, & Martin, 2002).

New Millennium Translation: Praise be to God in their mouths, and two-edged sword in their hands (Ilam, New Millennium, 2012).

The Good News Translation of the New Age: Praise God aloud and hold two-edged swords to punish godly people and people. (United Bible Societies, Good News, 1976).

Dari Translation: Praise be to God with a long song in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand.

Interpretative translation: O people of God, praise Him aloud and take up the sword of my smoke.(International Bible Society, 2002).

As you can see, in the Persian translations, the Hebrew combination of the Hebrew Wahrab Pivot (פִּֽ פִּֽיפִיּ֣וֹת) was translated into two-edged swords, and there is consensus among them.

Two-edged sword in Christian commentaries

Since in Judaism and Christianity there is no Prophet or figure known in the past, present or future as the double-edged sword, the interpretation of the verse is a misunderstanding of meaning. So that at least two interpretations can be found that have a uniform interpretation in this regard.

Matthew Henry (1662-1714), one of the most renowned Bible commentators, in his interpretation, adapts this verse to Jesus Christ, but since he cannot attribute sword and war to them, in the distant Tavil, The double-edged sword is the word of God.

If we accept what Matthew Henry said, it would be a shame that the books of the Israelite Prophets who came after David were also the word of God, such as Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos. , And ... to whom some, like Prophet Solomon (عليه السلام), are attributed to several scriptures. Each of these scriptures can be an example of the same two-edged sword. Therefore, it is not devoted to the Bible.In addition, the verse's appearance speaks of a two-edged sword for a person to avenge, not a scripture.Matthew's interpretation of the verse is therefore not consistent with the appearance of the verse.

Looking at other interpretations of the commentators of the Bible, we find that in the history of Judaism and Christianity in the Bible, there is no person who used to be known as the double-edged sword. Thus, when interpreting the phrase, surprisingly, Christian commentators take it to meanings in various meanings that have no solid support, neither in reasoning nor in expressing evidence.

Analyzing the evangelism according to Islamic sources

According to Islamic-Shiite sources, Zulfiqar is considered one of the symbols of the guardianship that has long been hand in hand with the divine authorities until the last promise. According to some traditions, Zulfiqar was even in his possession during the time of Prophet Solomon (Allameh Majlesi, 1403, vol. 42, p. 58).

Here are just two quotes from the many traditions that have come up in this regard:

The following is the commentary on the Manaqib Ibn Shahr Ashub  commentary on the interpretation of verse 25 of Surat al-Hadid:

God sent Adam down from heaven while Zulfiqar was with him. He created Zulfiqar from the leaf of Ace (Ass) in Heaven. Then he said, there is a tremendous force in it." You fought with the enemies of the Jinn and the demons with Zulfiqar. It was written on the sword: "My Prophets are constantly fighting with this sword, one after another, one after another, until Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام) inherited it and defended Nabi Ami with Zulfiqar." . (Allameh Majlesi, 1403, Our answer belongs to me and to you بواب ما یتعلق به و من ینتسب إلیه, 118, Arms and garments .. Salawatullah v. Allah).

According to what I have narrated from man -la-yahzrah al-Fiqhiyya, after Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Zulfiqar inherited to his son Imam Hassan ibn Ali and eventually Hojat ibn al-Hasan (عليه السلام) (Ibn Babu'iyyah, 1413, vol. 4, p. 418). Islamic traditions say that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) would carry two tails when he emerged, Zulfiqar or the same sword (Tusi, 1411).

Result

One of the clear evidences to the Imam of the time, Mahdi (aj) in Psalms 149: 6, is part of the Christian and Jewish Bible prophecy that came from enunciation by Prophet David (عليه السلام). In this Psalm verse the word double-edged sword is used. In all Abrahamic religions, the double-edged sword or Zulfiqar is not used for any personality except   Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and his son Imam Mahdi (Aj) 

https://www.farsnews.com/news/13940311000440/امام-زمان-عج-و-ذوالفقار-در-مسیحیت

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+149%3A6&version=KJV

�ت�ج� تص��ر� برا� �psalam 6:149��

 

 

The expectation of Israel as a victorious people - Psalm 149:6-9
Unlike the church of today Israel was given a militant role. Israel was God's agent of judgement on the Canaanite peoples for their incredible evil idolatry.
When God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants there was a specific statement that the Canaanite peoples were to be wiped out for their evil. Genesis 15:16, Deuteronomy 20:16-18 and Leviticus 20:2-5 show us that Israel was to be a militant warrior nation used as God's agents to rid the land of the sin of child sacrifice which defiled the land.
This concept of a holy war continued throughout Israels history. God was on their side when they walked in obedience to him and he would fight on their behalf against their enemies.
This is why we shouldn't be surprised when Psalm 149:7-9 speaks of two edged swords, vengeance and punishment.
God punishes sin, this is a matter of justice. How can we declare that we believe in justice being done here on Earth when someone does wrong; yet deny God the right to execute judgement against individuals and nations for their acts of evil?
Psalm 149:9 speaks of the judgement that is written against nations. The law of the Lord has been given it needs to be obeyed.

https://sermons.faithlife.com/sermons/157800-psalms-of-praise-the-victory-of-the-faithful-psalm-149

The experience of the Church as a victorious people - Psalm 149:6-9
But the church needs to be careful. All to often we have fallen into the trap of thinking that we are Israel, called to be God's divine agents of judgement on some modern day Canaanites.
This has been a huge mistake made by the church and also by nation states which have a Christian heritage.
Listen to just two examples where passages such as Psalm 149 have been misused to justify a militant Christianity.
Militarism which has always ended in disaster

image.jpeg  Ù�تÛ�جÙ� تصÙ�Û�رÛ� براÛ� פִּֽ×�פִ×�Ö¼Ö£×�ֹת  image.jpeg

image.jpeg  image.jpeg   Ù�تÛ�جÙ� تصÙ�Û�رÛ� براÛ� פִּֽ×�פִ×�Ö¼Ö£×�ֹת Ù�تÛ�جÙ� تصÙ�Û�رÛ� براÛ� פִּֽ×�פִ×�Ö¼Ö£×�ֹת https://he.aliexpress.com/promotion/promotion_double-edged-sword-promotion.html

 

image.png�ت�ج� تص��ر� برا� פִּֽ�פִ�ּ֣�ֹת

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�ש�ק ת�ש��� ����ק� �פת��ת ��� ��תר ��שר ש��ר נשק פ�פ��ת �ר� Chaveiro llaveros ע��ר ����� Keyring ���ר(China)

https://he.wiktionary.org/wiki/חרב_פיפיות

https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4688978,00.html

https://sites.google.com/site/iditmjudges/ehudbengera

�ت�ج� تص��ر� برا� פִּֽ�פִ�ּ֣�ֹת

https://il.bidspirit.com/ui/lotPage/source/catalog/auction/4738/lot/125265/חרב-פיפיות-עשויה-פליז-ישנה?lang=he

חרב פיפיות - הרב נחמנסון - ט'

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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19 hours ago, Jaabir said:

So the question is: do we have any reliable narrations describing the Zulfiqar being double-edged? I know of a few people that would get pretty upset if they found out their Zulfiqar tattoo is inaccurately attributed to Imam Ali...

Salam current image of Zulfiqar became popular after " the message movie" that said all of it's content approved by Al-Azhar university but it said it is the first sword that made for Islam by black smith men of Medina for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & used by him in battle of Badr.

�ت�ج� تص��ر� برا� �the message movie+imam ali sword��

 

The Prophet's sword (nabiyy Zaax sayf)

5 mind blowing facts about Zulfiqar (The sword)

Imam Ali zulfikar

20 things you should know about Ali ibn Abi Talib.

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

�ت�ج� تص��ر� برا� �the message movie+imam ali sword��

I used to wonder about that double pointed tip. Is it used to parry incoming blows? There is no other example in medieval weaponry who sometimes use such similar tactical design provisions much closer to the hilt or use a device in the other hand to parry or block. Perhaps it was meant to stay inside the victim's body to lift them up? But that would only make the weapon unreliable as it could get stuck and cause delay. Then I read translations that it is a "double edge", and not "double point".

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17 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

I used to wonder about that double pointed tip. Is it used to parry incoming blows? There is no other example in medieval weaponry who sometimes use such similar tactical design provisions much closer to the hilt or use a device in the other hand to parry or block. Perhaps it was meant to stay inside the victim's body to lift them up? But that would only make the weapon unreliable as it could get stuck and cause delay. Then I read translations that it is a "double edge", and not "double point".

Salam , all what I read about striking by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in battles that his strike with sword was cutting people to two separate parts but he never lifted up any body with his sword so his sword can be had extended width than narrow swords that was using bu horsemen & he was using it for man to man battle on ground not on back of horse that can had different shape than rest of swords that was common between Arab fighters , it's also said that his horse "Zuljinah" was not fast enough for horse riding in battle that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was riding with it just to carry himself & his staff that when others said to him why he doesn't choose a war horse he said " I don't run away from battlefield so I don't need a fast horse , I just need a horse to carry me in battlefield for long distances"

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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4 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

I used to wonder about that double pointed tip. Is it used to parry incoming blows? There is no other example in medieval weaponry who sometimes use such similar tactical design provisions much closer to the hilt or use a device in the other hand to parry or block. Perhaps it was meant to stay inside the victim's body to lift them up? But that would only make the weapon unreliable as it could get stuck and cause delay. 

 

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13 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

While Imam Ali's sword might have been unique in having these "vertebrae" (as the hadith puts it), or the two prongs, as is generally depicted, but it probably was typical otherwise for swords of the period -- at least it is reasonable to assume so. I doubt there would be a mu'tabar hadith on this, and I'm not sure why we need a mu'tabar hadith on what a sword looked like.

I didn't expect there would be a mu'tabar hadith for the description of the Zulfiqar that's generally depicted and I agree it's not that important. I was curious since I would hate to have a permanent tattoo of something that's false, or a necklace of the dagger of Abu Lu'lu'ah, or a replica sword of Imam Ali hanging on my bedroom wall that turns out isn't even Imam Ali's. These are things we may see quite commonly in our communities, but the nit-picky person in me probably won't have any of them if it's not accurate.

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On 8/26/2019 at 4:23 AM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salams,

The Arab swords of the period were not scimitars and shamshirs like the ones Bedouins from the past few centuries wore, we have depictions and even archaeological finds that show us they were straight and double edged. The Arab sword, in design, comes from the Roman sword, the gladius, though I think it's more likely that it's from the later used spatha, a longer and narrower sword used during the late empire. This sword is also the archetype for European swords including those belonging to the people of the Germanic migrations -- so it is the archetype from which the Viking sword and the knight's sword also come.If it wasn't descended from that style it would have definitely been quite similar.  As it seems there were two varieties of swords in use in Arabia then, mashrifiya, a Syrian manufactured one, and muhannad, an Indian one -- this was also double edged and straight. I've read somewhere that there was also manufacturing of iron ingots from India into swords in Yemen but it's rather hazy. This sword was worn on a baldric like Roman practice as opposed to a sword belt, like Sassanian practice.

Here's sketches of some early Arab arms and armour found from the period of the conquests:

image.png.3305010af455d031219d33c0f073027f.png

From Osprey's Yarmuk AD 636.

Here's a sketch of what (1) a wealthy Muslim -- brandishing a muhannad, (2) a poorer Muslim, and (3) a Bedouin chief from the period of the conquests might have looked like:

image.png.be2ef817611bc0a40779acbdd14e50a0.png

From Osprey's Armies of the Muslim Conquests.

A final image from the same source:

image.png.ca3117c78549da2ba5a77b4f61015bb9.png

The Osprey series is always a fantastic place to begin to look for information about military history -- then, of course, go to other more specialized scholarly works.

While Imam Ali's sword might have been unique in having these "vertebrae" (as the hadith puts it), or the two prongs, as is generally depicted, but it probably was typical otherwise for swords of the period -- at least it is reasonable to assume so. I doubt there would be a mu'tabar hadith on this, and I'm not sure why we need a mu'tabar hadith on what a sword looked like.

It may be or may not be like it in reality because Arabian sword since primitive times is known to be curved for proper slashing, the roots of which can be found in Egyptian "Khopesh", the Romans later on entered in the Arabia when Cleopatra had formed an alliance with the Roman emperor.  

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14 hours ago, realizm said:

 

:salam:

Not sure about the solidity of the weapon, but that would definitely make it lighter.

نتیجه تصویری برای ‪hero movie+jet li+sword‬‏  Ù†ØªÛŒØ¬Ù‡ تصویری برای ‪hero movie+jet li+sword‬‏

 

File:Jet Li Hero Sword.jpg

Hero Jet Li vs. Donnie Yen Fight Scene 2002

Hero | ‘Golden Opportunity’ (HD) - Jet Li, Maggie Cheung | MIRAMAX

Hero | ‘Alone’ (HD) - Jet Li, Maggie Cheung | MIRAMAX

 

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The claim made by anti-Majos production, an anti-Shia youtube channel which said that Shias portray Imam Ali (as)'s sword as a two bladed sword because Abu Lulu'ah had a dagger which was identical. This is not true at all. Firstly, Abu Lulu'ah did indeed have a two bladed dagger, however, the blades were on each side of the hilt. This is what Feroz's dagger looked like.  DSC01972_540x.jpg?v=1527247727

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Also, it's said that Imam Ali (as)'s intention with the Zulfiqar blade was to use it to grab the hilt of his enemy's sword and then throw the sword away.

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On 8/25/2019 at 7:23 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

The Arab sword, in design, comes from the Roman sword, the gladius, though I think it's more likely that it's from the later used spatha, a longer and narrower sword used during the late empire. This sword is also the archetype for European swords including those belonging to the people of the Germanic migrations -- so it is the archetype from which the Viking sword and the knight's sword also come.

The major difference would be the spatha and the Viking swords did not have a hilt like the knight's sword. If the Arab sword was based off of a spatha, it too lacked the handguard. It seems to me that people think or believe Zulfiqar was a scimitar of some sort.

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On 8/27/2019 at 1:33 AM, Flying_Eagle said:

the Romans later on entered in the Arabia when Cleopatra had formed an alliance with the Roman emperor.  

Just a small correction, the alliance between Cleopatra and Gaius Iullius Caesar was formed way before the Roman Empire (circa 47-46 B.C) Octavian was not yet imperator during this time period and the Roman Empire  wasn't until 27 B.C.

That's all I will say, this thread is about Arabic swords, not Caesar's civil war or the foundation of the Roman Empire.

 

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Just a small correction, the alliance between Cleopatra and Gaius Iullius Caesar was formed way before the Roman Empire (circa 47-46 B.C) Octavian was not yet imperator during this time period and the Roman Empire  wasn't until 27 B.C.

That's all I will say, this thread is about Arabic swords, not Caesar's civil war or the foundation of the Roman Empire.

 

Yeah, my bad wrote Roman emperor, should have wrote as founder of Roman empire. I was talking about how two  blade swords entered in Arabia and was not speaking about Roman history but that Arabs used curved swords for slicing.

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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