Need Help Refuting a Hadith

[7ssein]

AsSalaamu Alaykum

 

http://www.*************/2013/12/26/detailed-research-on-the-chains-of-hadith-ul-afdaliyyah-narration-of-superiority/

 

How do we refute this?

 

I know many of the chains have a guy names Abdallah (around half), so he could be fabricating narrators, but is there a way to refute the rest? If you say "Abdallah collaborated with his friends," could you point out which narrators would be his friends, by giving the years they lived or where they lived, etc.

 

If you have an article or something refuting it, please link, I can read both Arabic and English, although my English is much stronger.

 

Jazaakumallah Kheir

[Hugo Boss]

they quoted Sunni books, but anyhows; what do you think the Shia rijali books will say about the narrators of those chains that have transmitted this fabricated narration? Second of all, we believe that Ummayids and Abbasids paid the scholars and those narrators to say these things, so they could legitimize their rulership by oppressing Ahlul Bayt (3)

[Flying_Eagle]

On 8/18/2019 at 2:07 PM, 7ssein said:

AsSalaamu Alaykum

 

http://www.*************/2013/12/26/detailed-research-on-the-chains-of-hadith-ul-afdaliyyah-narration-of-superiority/

 

How do we refute this?

 

I know many of the chains have a guy names Abdallah (around half), so he could be fabricating narrators, but is there a way to refute the rest? If you say "Abdallah collaborated with his friends," could you point out which narrators would be his friends, by giving the years they lived or where they lived, etc.

 

If you have an article or something refuting it, please link, I can read both Arabic and English, although my English is much stronger.

 

Jazaakumallah Kheir

1. The narration mainly from `Ali (رضي الله عنه) that the Prophet (saws) said “Abu Bakr and `Umar are the masters of the young and mature men of paradise after the Messengers and Prophets.”

https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/Abu-bakr-Umar-masters-of-youth-and-elderly-of-paradise/

While there be only Youth in Heaven and there is more famous Hadith that says Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) are the leaders of prince of youth in Heaven. There be no elders in heaven, people only age due to stress and tension which will happen in hell. So, older people be in hell and not in heaven.

 

2. “It was Allah who named Abu Bakr “The truthful” from above seven heavens.”

If Hazrat Abu Bakar was so truthful then why did he refute Hazrat Zahra's claim of Fadak which was granted to her by Prophet (PBUHHP). Did he spoke truth or Syeda Fatima (عليه السلام) spoke truth ?

3. “We did not think it unlikely that the divine presence spoke with the tongue of `Umar.”

If that had been truth why Hazrat Umer said: "If Ali were not there, Umer would have died". It seems that Hazrat Umer could not solve his jurisprudential and judicial matters without Imam Ali (عليه السلام). It, therefore, seems very wrong hadith where in Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) name has been tagged. 

[7ssein]

21 hours ago, Hugo Boss said:

they quoted Sunni books, but anyhows; what do you think the Shia rijali books will say about the narrators of those chains that have transmitted this fabricated narration? Second of all, we believe that Ummayids and Abbasids paid the scholars and those narrators to say these things, so they could legitimize their rulership by oppressing Ahlul Bayt (3)

Do you have any sources on this? Also, make me mod on Rafed plz

11 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

1. The narration mainly from `Ali (رضي الله عنه) that the Prophet (saws) said “Abu Bakr and `Umar are the masters of the young and mature men of paradise after the Messengers and Prophets.”

https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/Abu-bakr-Umar-masters-of-youth-and-elderly-of-paradise/

While there be only Youth in Heaven and there is more famous Hadith that says Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) are the leaders of prince of youth in Heaven. There be no elders in heaven, people only age due to stress and tension which will happen in hell. So, older people be in hell and not in heaven.

 

2. “It was Allah who named Abu Bakr “The truthful” from above seven heavens.”

If Hazrat Abu Bakar was so truthful then why did he refute Hazrat Zahra's claim of Fadak which was granted to her by Prophet (PBUHHP). Did he spoke truth or Syeda Fatima (عليه السلام) spoke truth ?

3. “We did not think it unlikely that the divine presence spoke with the tongue of `Umar.”

If that had been truth why Hazrat Umer said: "If Ali were not there, Umer would have died". It seems that Hazrat Umer could not solve his jurisprudential and judicial matters without Imam Ali (عليه السلام). It, therefore, seems very wrong hadith where in Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) name has been tagged. 

This is a different Hadith.

[Flying_Eagle]

1 hour ago, 7ssein said:

This is a different Hadith.

This is same brother, there are no elders in Heaven and have heard this hadith several times. You can also find this on youtube. 

[7ssein]

14 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

This is same brother, there are no elders in Heaven and have heard this hadith several times. You can also find this on youtube. 

From the article:

Quote

However, in this research we intended only to gather all -or at least the vast majority- of chains for the narration of `Ali ibn abi Talib may Allah be pleased with him in which he says: “The best of this nation after its Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are Abu Bakr and `Umar” And for the narration: “If anyone prefers me over Abu Bakr and `Umar he shall be punished as a slanderer.”

It's not about the master of elders, it's about this Hadith.

[Flying_Eagle]

1 hour ago, 7ssein said:

From the article:

It's not about the master of elders, it's about this Hadith.

If they were the best after Prophet (PBUHHP) then why Prophet (PBUHHP) made Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) as his brother and Hazrat Abu Bakar and Hazrat Umer ?

[7ssein]

1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

If they were the best after Prophet (PBUHHP) then why Prophet (PBUHHP) made Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) as his brother and Hazrat Abu Bakar and Hazrat Umer ?

I know these arguments, but I am looking for an argument against the existence of the Hadith itself, not against the matn/content. Also, why'd you leave all the Discord servers?

[Flying_Eagle]

1 hour ago, 7ssein said:

I know these arguments, but I am looking for an argument against the existence of the Hadith itself, not against the matn/content. Also, why'd you leave all the Discord servers?

Well, if you have another hadith of Mawakhat which disagrees with this hadith, it shows that this hadith is fake because Prophet (pbuhhp) made all people brothers according to Iman. 

As for discord, I have left it because I do not have enough time to come all sites simultaneously because I have some job tasks to do. 

[Jaane Rabb]

Salaam @7ssein

Did you get anywhere with dissecting their article from a Shi'I perspective?

Fi Amanillah

[7ssein]

11 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Salaam @7ssein

Did you get anywhere with dissecting their article from a Shi'I perspective?

Fi Amanillah

W/Salam,

Well, the people narrating it could have been paid by the government, and I think they are all companions of each other. Basically, compare it to how there were mass lies against the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) before the majority of the people converted to Islam. Or how, in our world, currently, if a news article is posted, it is automatically believed, and spread around, without verifying it, which could be the case for this narration. This theory is proven when Imam AlKadhim says to not believe bad/insulting news about your brother in faith, even if 50 people come swearing by Allah's name and tell you the bad/insulting news, and to believe your brother and not them, unless you have real proof against your brother of course.

 كذب سمعك وبصرك عن أخيك فإن شهد عندك خمسون قسامة وقال لك قولا فصدقه وكذبهم (source: http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1185_شرح-أصول-الكافي-مولي-محمد-صالح-المازندراني-ج-١٢/الصفحة_153).

There are also ahadith addressing this very issue, where Imam Ali says it is lies against him, I was sent these but don't have them anymore.

Another way to disprove the Hadith is to look at the content, like Flying_Eagle said, it can't be true if Imam Ali is the master of the youth of paradise, because someone who is in a higher position than someone else doesn't take his inferior as a master, so one of the two Ahadith must be wrong.

I hope this helps.

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam first Hadith refuted that only people of Paradise are young people & we don't have elders in paradise it's also said by some of their channels that Prophet Muhammad said to an old woman that old people won't enter paradise & about calling Abubakr as Siddiq this channels censors a part that when Prophet said to Abubakr to be calm down when they were in cave Abubakr said to Prophet really you are a magician & Prophet responded you said right & based on Sunni narrations Qur'an collected in time of third Caliph & based on our narrations first person that collected Qur'an was Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but second caliph in time of Abubakr rejected it that about Umar Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said in Nahjul balagh Shaitan seeds in his chest & spoke from his tongue .

Imam Jawad (عليه السلام) debate with Yahya ibn aktham about Merits of Abubakr and Umar! in  presence of Abbasids Tyrant the Mamun (Arabic language video) محاضرة التي حصلت بمجلس الكازية العباسي النوم بين الأمام جواد (ع)و يحيي ابن اكثم بموضوه فضائل أبو بكر و عمر!

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Ashvazdanghe