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In the Name of God بسم الله
thegoodman81

What happened to the other warnings?

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9 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Qur'an says previous original divine books not corrupted but original books hide from people by Rabbis & priests & they just show the parts that was suitable for them & filled the gaps from censorship with their their words but still a few number of them knew about original books but keep these as s cret from people but Qur'an in full text without censorship  is available to everyone but our understanding from it is different that Imam Mahdi (aj) has access to All divine books & will show these books to people after his reappearance to shows reality to people & people will recognize truth from falsehood.

But Ashvazdanghe, two problems. 

First, that is corrupting God's message. You're saying these men overpowered God's will. That's blasphemy. 

Second Problem, same thing that I just told Hasanhh. If what you said was true, AND the Qur'an is totally clear, why does Allah not mention this clearly?  A lot of Muslims site 2:175 but that isn't describing any tampering with the manuscripts and it doesnt talk about any people who would have had position to alter the biblical record.

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3 hours ago, Cool said:

Bible confirms Torah, Qur'an confirms all 3 earlier scriptures. Before these three earlier scriptures, you will find many religions who teaches the oneness of God (Touheed). 

From Adam to Muhammad, the main message remains the same I.e., Touheed. And it is also in our very nature. 

 

Hi Cool,

I don't think monotheism is enough to qualify on it's own. Lots of cultures believe in one God but I doubt you believe their theology is accurate enough in God's eyes. For example I believe in one God but I believe he consists of three persons, and that he has at times taken human form. It's momotbeism but I'm told I'm in for a painful punishment,  according to my Muslim friends. So mere monotheism isn't enough.

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4 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

about any people who would have had position to alter the biblical record.

Qur'an warns Rabbis & priests about writing something & say it is word of God or moving words in wrong position that changes real meaning of it 

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14 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

The verb is "cite".

Correct, it has nothing to do with altering manuscripts, so how do 'Muslims' cite it and in what context?

Haha, thanks for the correction. 

Also, I need to correct myself. I meant to say Qur'an 2:75, through 79. Not 2:175. My mistake.

I haven't had any coffee yet....

Anyway, I'll get back to you later. I'm going to exercise now.

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5 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Hi Cool,

I don't think monotheism is enough to qualify on it's own. Lots of cultures believe in one God but I doubt you believe their theology is accurate enough in God's eyes. For example I believe in one God but I believe he consists of three persons, and that he has at times taken human form. It's momotbeism but I'm told I'm in for a painful punishment,  according to my Muslim friends. So mere monotheism isn't enough.

Hi friend, 

Out of 124000 Prophets, very few were mentioned in the scriptures. You and I can take the examples of Prophet Noah, what were his message/preachings to his nation? 

Surah Nooh, Verse 1:
إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرْ قَوْمَكَ مِن قَبْلِ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

Surely We sent Nuh to his people, saying: Warn your people before there come upon them a painful chastisement.
(English - Shakir)

And you can cite more verses of this chapter to know what he was preaching. 

Ibrahim did the same thing, even Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did the same thing I.e., preached to his nation to worship One & Only True God.

Regarding with the religious acts of worshiping like prayers, fasting etc, they changed with time according to the revelation and according to the divine commands conveyed to Prophets time to time. 

How can and who can change the words of God while they are supreme and are nothing but truth and can never exhaust? Jesus (عليه السلام) is also a word from God :), His words are the glad tidings given to His chosen ones, His words are light not these mere alphabets of Arabic or Hebrew languages. His words were revealed on the heart of his chosen ones or conveyed to them via angels (specifically Jibra'il or Gabrial). 

Surah Luqman, Verse 27:
وَلَوْ أَنَّمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِن شَجَرَةٍ أَقْلَامٌ وَالْبَحْرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ سَبْعَةُ أَبْحُرٍ مَّا نَفِدَتْ كَلِمَاتُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

And were every tree that is in the Earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
(English - Shakir)

I know Christians believe in triune nature of God but that is not more than their own assumption, I think you're well aware of what Qur'an says about such assumptions. 

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

This is one aspect of our replies to you. [people knowingly perverting]

Yes, I know that (it's an aspect of the replies). But my point is that even this passage doesn't suggest textual corruption.

Think about it. 

Who had the Bibles in Muhammad's time? Or prior? It wasn't ordinary people. It was scholars, pastors, monks, etc. Scripture was closely guarded. And when books were copied to be distributed, or to replace deteriorating manuscripts, these men were the ones doing it, and they utilized their own collections. 

What is that Qur'an passage describing here? Keepsakes. False verses, sure. But they were given to people who can't read. These weren't being inserted into the guarded texts. These weren't being given to the scholars or pastors, but to illiterate laity. So the Bibles which were used for instruction of churches? Perfectly safe. The Bibles used for copying? Perfectly safe. 

Just like if I wrote out a fake verse of the Qur'an, and gave it to one of my non-Arabic speaking Muslim friends, would that corrupt the Qur'an? No, of course not! Because ample records of it exists, educated people can root out the falsehood, and my little scrap wouldn't be introduced to the historical record anyway. Same is true of what is being described in this passage (Q 2:75-79). 

So think about it again: all of the other passages about how the Qur'an affirm the previous scriptures (aside from the "throw behind their backs" passage, but that just means they're disobeying it, not that it's being corrupted or erased from history). And 10:94, as I already mentioned, says that Muslims should consult with people who study the previous scriptures, which wouldn't make sense unless they were still completely valid (because if not it wouldn't make sense to consult with them if they were questionable). If you apply good hermeneutics to 2:75-79, interpreting the less clear in light of the clear, there is no reason for the Muslim to suspect the Bible of corruption. 

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9 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

there is no reason for the Muslim to suspect the Bible of corruption. 

Okay, Can you read Assyrian? The original language of the Bible? No.

Back then they translated it and imagine how bad the translation could’ve been.

Google translate it bad now, so imagine 300 ad, the translation, must’ve not been good.

Also, one thing I don’t understand that is Pail wrote a lot of things to do In the Bible, that doesn’t have anything relating to what Jesus preached. 

Jesus was Jewish and preached the same Law Of Moses that Moses had preached.

Edited by Isaam

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On 8/21/2019 at 9:06 AM, thegoodman81 said:

And 10:94, as I already mentioned, says that Muslims should consult with people who study the previous scriptures, which wouldn't make sense unless they were still completely valid (because if not it wouldn't make sense to consult with them if they were questionable)

Hello,

The form in which the divine revelation was manifest to the Prophets in the cases of Moses (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was textual, while in the case of Jesus (عليه السلام), the divine book that is the revelation (Injil or Gospel) God sent to Jesus was never published as a text of what God said to him, Jesus himself is to be considered the word of God, just as the Torah and the Glorious Qur’an are considered the word of God. And that would perhaps change the meaning of phrase mentioned in 10:94 "ask those who study/read the book" (allathina yaqraoonal kitab).

"The Book" here, in case of Jesus (عليه السلام), could be Jesus himself as he himself is the word from God, that would change the meaning to ask those who read Torah & Life (Biography as mentioned in Gospel) of Jesus. Or do you claim that the book revealed to Jesus was published in his lifetime as text? 

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8 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Hello,

The form in which the divine revelation was manifest to the Prophets in the cases of Moses (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was textual, while in the case of Jesus (عليه السلام), the divine book that is the revelation (Injil or Gospel) God sent to Jesus was never published as a text of what God said to him, Jesus himself is to be considered the word of God, just as the Torah and the Glorious Qur’an are considered the word of God. And that would perhaps change the meaning of phrase mentioned in 10:94 "ask those who study/read the book" (allathina yaqraoonal kitab).

"The Book" here, in case of Jesus (عليه السلام), could be Jesus himself as he himself is the word from God, that would change the meaning to ask those who read Torah & Life (Biography as mentioned in Gospel) of Jesus. Or do you claim that the book revealed to Jesus was published in his lifetime as text? 

Wow, great question at the end there, and very interesting thoughts throughout. 

So first your question, "do you claim that the book revealed to Jesus was published in his lifetime as a text?" In short, no, not at all. In fact, Jesus himself never wrote any text. He was in fact the subject of the texts of the Christians.

See, the Qur'an actually borrows a Christian term when it says "Injeel." That word is not an Arabic word; rather, it is an Arabic cognate for "euangelion," which is Greek for "a reward for bringing good news;" it is often means simply “good news” itself. 

So we all need to ask ourselves, what was the Good News -- the Injeel -- to the Greek-speaking Christians in the time of Christ and right after? That is important because we need to understand what terms mean. Was it a book? Was it a passage to recite, like al Fatiha? Was it something else? 

Historically, the Good News was the message that the Jesus had come as the promised Messiah of the Israelites, to carry God's blessing to all mankind (Jew and non-Jew alike) by dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. That's the good news! it's the news that we can be reconciled to God through Jesus' sacrifice, so that we can be with him in Heaven.

But Jesus didn't write this message, and he didn't receive it --- he lived it! He was the message. He then died to accomplish it, and rose again to prove he was telling the truth. So that's why Jesus uses the word "Euangelion" throughout the New Testament, and that's why his disciples after him used it and passed it on to the church for all time. It's a very important term to Christians! That's why the New Testament is often called the Gospel -- you can hand it to someone and tell them "Here's the Good News! It's in here!"  But whether you call it the Gospel or the New Testament of the Injeel, it's the collection of books that tells the good news of Jesus and how we should live as his disciples until his return. 

Also, to be specific on when it was written, it was written within Jesus' natural lifespan, though after he ascended to be with the Father. 

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On 8/17/2019 at 5:47 PM, Darth Vader said:

it seems your concerns are genuine

alhamdulillah, they are not genuine concerns.

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Hello @Mzwakhe

I will tell you, yes, my concerns for my Muslim friends are genuine. I do not want anyone to go to Hell, no matter where they are from, what they look like, what language they speak. So while I do not seek to offend or bother anyone, I am compelled to speak the truth. May the Lord bless you with wisdom and understanding!

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12 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

So first your question, "do you claim that the book revealed to Jesus was published in his lifetime as a text?" In short, no, not at all. In fact, Jesus himself never wrote any text.

Hello Friend,

Thanks for your answer, so we are agreed that what we know as the book "injeel" was never published as text in the life time of Jesus. 
 

12 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

See, the Qur'an actually borrows a Christian term when it says "Injeel." That word is not an Arabic word; rather, it is an Arabic cognate for "euangelion," which is Greek for "a reward for bringing good news;" it is often means simply “good news” itself. 

I don't want to go into debate whether it was Arabic name or not and who actually named it as "Injil", God Himself or Christians because it would further push this discussions to the origin of name Torah or Tawrayt & Zabur or Psalms. 

The important thing here is the meaning you shared I.e., "good news".

 

13 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

So we all need to ask ourselves, what was the Good News -- the Injeel -- to the Greek-speaking Christians in the time of Christ and right after? That is important because we need to understand what terms mean. Was it a book? Was it a passage to recite, like al Fatiha? Was it something else? 

Historically, the Good News was the message that the Jesus had come as the promised Messiah of the Israelites, to carry God's blessing to all mankind (Jew and non-Jew alike) by dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. That's the good news! it's the news that we can be reconciled to God through Jesus' sacrifice, so that we can be with him in Heaven.

I am sure my friend that you believe on every Prophet from Adam to Jesus (Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon them all). 

I am very happy to see that you have raised the question "what was the Good News" and tried to explain it to me through the knowledge you have. I just want to ask one simple question and that is, from Adam to Jesus, there is a chain of Prophets, we all need to believe on all of them. If we consider Jesus as the bearer of final message and Injil is considered as the last & final book (revelation), there must have present a message that there will be no more Prophet to come afterward like there is a verse in Qur'an which mentions Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Khatam-un-Nabiyyen (Seal of Prophets) and declares the end of revelation, perfection of religion and completion of God's blessings. Why any such news is absent in the text of Bible?  

If the Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Israelites, how he become Messiah for whole man kind? Is there any news in the bible which declares Jesus (عليه السلام) as the promised Messiah for mankind?  

I will also question the assumption that Jesus dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins in light of the verses of Qur'an as well as earlier scriptures. But till now, I would like to see how you answer my above questions. 

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44 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

I will tell you, yes, my concerns for my Muslim friends are genuine. I do not want anyone to go to Hell

I believe that God is the most merciful the most forgiving. I believe that he will even forgive your misconceptions about him. Christianity is like alcohol. When you drink alcohol you get double vision. In Christianity you get treble vision and see thee Gods :discussion: when there is only one. But he will forgive you because he knows that you mean well. Some times at least.  :)

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10 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

I believe that God is the most merciful the most forgiving. I believe that he will even forgive your misconceptions about him. Christianity is like alcohol. When you drink alcohol you get double vision. In Christianity you get treble vision and see thee Gods :discussion: when there is only one. But he will forgive you because he knows that you mean well. Some times at least.  :)

Incorrect but that is funny, LOL.

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Hi @Logic1234 my friend. :)

"Thanks for your answer, so we are agreed that what we know as the book "injeel" was never published as text in the life time of Jesus." 

Well, almost. We agree that Jesus did not write this text. But I don't agree that they weren't available in his lifetime. Jesus was born in the first few years of the first century AD. He ascended to Heaven sometime around 30-34 AD. Most of the 27 books were written after that, but before 65 AD. So that is still within Jesus' 'lifetime,' even though he was no longer physically present. They were written by Jesus' contemporaries. 

"from Adam to Jesus, there is a chain of Prophets, we all need to believe on all of them. If we consider Jesus as the bearer of final message and Injil is considered as the last & final book (revelation), there must have present a message that there will be no more Prophet to come afterward like there is a verse in Qur'an which mentions Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Khatam-un-Nabiyyen (Seal of Prophets) and declares the end of revelation, perfection of religion and completion of God's blessings. Why any such news is absent in the text of Bible?"

That's another good question! I have a few things I want to explain regarding that. 
First, we don't believe Jesus was the final messenger. We don't think of him merely as a Prophet. We worship him as God. So when he speaks God's wisdom, he isn't prophesying; he's speaking from his own wisdom and knowledge). We think that calling him a Prophet does not acknowledge his true greatness, so we don't call him that. 

Second, because Christians have the Holy Spirit living within us, Christians have what are called "spiritual gifts." This can include really incredible things, like the ability to heal, or to speak in languages we never learned, or even to prophesy! So indeed, it is possible that someone could prophesy after the time of Christ. Messages like this regard individuals, and thus do not need to be recorded for all people in the scripture (and this is recorded many times in scripture).

(By the way, there are a lot of biblical reasons why Muhammad would be disqualified as a Prophet but I think that's a subject for a different thread).

Crucially, not everyone who has the gift of prophecy is supposed to contribute to the written scripture (you can see this right in the Bible itself -- lots of people prophesy in the Old and New Testaments, and their messages are not recorded). So as for which books we accept, we only accept those which were written by and/or accepted by Jesus' disciples, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Your most important question:

"If the Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Israelites, how he become Messiah for whole man kind? Is there any news in the bible which declares Jesus (عليه السلام) as the promised Messiah for mankind?"

Messiah, from the family line of Abraham, was to be the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, where God promised to bless all the nations of the Earth through Abraham (meaning through his family line). So there has always been an expectation among the Jews that someone from among them would somehow extend God's blessing not jus tto the Jews, but to the whole world. Peter (one of Jesus' closest companions) explained it really well in Acts chapter 3 when he says:
“Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the Prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.  And you are heirs of the Prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on Earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant [Jesus], he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you [speaking to a mixed audience of Jews and gentiles] from your wicked ways.”

As for whether or not Jesus is declared to be the Messiah, yes indeed. Here are a few places, both from the Old Testament (prophecies that Jesus later fulfills) and from the New Testament (testimonies and admissions that he is the Messiah).

Unfortunately I'll have to post the rest later because my kids have an appointment at the moment! 

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Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Jesus' title in the Qur'an is 'al Masi,' meaning The Messiah. It is one of the things in the Qur'an that I agree with, even though I hold the book as a whole to be in error.

Anyway, I'll show you those Messiah references a little later.

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18 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

I will tell you, yes, my concerns for my Muslim friends are genuine.

It is a mental thing & your concerns are misplaced due to misguidance. Genuity needs to be sincere & sincerity is purity. Here's an equation to think about: 

Purity of Enlightened Intention = Soundness of Spirit + Growth of Intellect. 

18 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

to Hell

It is for a reason beyond our compression.

 

18 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

compelled to speak the truth

When you know it Insha'Allah

 

18 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

May the Lord bless you with wisdom and understanding!

alhamdulillah, thank you. May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you too

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Okay, so a few references to Jesus as the Messiah! There are many more than these, but these are some of my favorites.
 

Old Testament -- prophecies specifically fulfilled by Jesus

  • Messiah would establish a new covenant [Jeremiah 31:31]
  • Messiah would be born of a Virgin [Isaiah 7:14]
  • Messiah would bear our sins and suffer in our place (Isaiah 53:4-11]
  • Messiah would be pierced [Zechariah 12:10]
  • Messiah would come riding on a donkey [Zechariah 9:9]
  • Messiah would be called out of Egypt [11:1]
  • Messiah would be called a Nazarene [Isaiah 11:1]
  • Messiah would be born in Bethlehem [Micah 5:2]
  • Messiah would be called 'God with Us' [Isaiah 7:14]

New Testament -- statements from Jesus, his disciples, and his contemporaries // by the way, "Christ" is just the Koine Greek word for Messiah, so when you hear people say Jesus Christ, they are literally saying 'Jesus the Messiah.'

  • Jesus claims to be the Messiah [John 4:19-26]
  • Visitors from distant lands came expecting to meet the promised Messiah [Matthew 2:1-6]
  • Matthew presents Jesus as the Messiah, and explains the geneaology of the Messiah [Matthew 1:1-17]
  • Jesus claims to have fulfilled messianic prophecy [Luke 4:14-30]
  • Demons believe that Jesus has the power to destroy them, admit that he is the Holy One of God [Luke 4:31-37]
  • An angel told Jesus' step-father that Mary's son would fulfill Isaiah 7:14 [Matthew 1:18-25]
  • Paul, a rabbi who hated Christians and persecuted them, changed his mind and confessed that Jesus was the divine Messiah, the appointed Son of God [Acts 9:1-19, Romans 1:1-6]

Friends, I encourage you to look these up. (sorry again, no time to link them all)

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33 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

Okay, so a few references to Jesus as the Messiah!

Muslims know Isa/Jesus -(عليه السلام). is the Messaheh. So what was the purpose of your padded point?

Your using that hokey Christology is laughable. lsaiah 7:14 is part of a discourse on a land between two kings -Egypt and Assyria. 

The name "Emmanuel" does mean 'God with us' but that 'with us' means protection and not that blasphemous 'God on Earth' garbage.

Matthew Chapter 2 is also about the Magi/Magicians of the Zorasteran kind. Which raises interesting questions. 0ne such question is: Why would the God of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). send a Malik/Angel to heathen fire worshipers rather than lsraelis and rabbis?

Only a couple of refutations here, but l doubt you acquired anything.

Edited by hasanhh

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4 minutes ago, Isaam said:

Okay, nice opinion. The Qur'an isn’t an error

I respect your opinion too. And I didn't say that to offend anybody, I just wanted to make sure people didn't misunderstand me. Cheers!

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Just now, thegoodman81 said:

I respect your opinion too. And I didn't say that to offend anybody, I just wanted to make sure people didn't misunderstand me. Cheers!

I mean one time I did see you sight some things of why you don’t agree with the Qu’ran, but I also do think stuff does get lost in translation. And sometimes it’s not meant to be taken literally. I also find that Muslims sometimes do the same with the Bible 

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6 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Muslims know Isa/Jesus -(عليه السلام). is the Messaheh. So what was the purpose of your padded point?

Your using that hokey Christology is laughable. lsaiah 7:14 is part of a discourse on a land between two kings -Egypt and Assyria. 

The name "Emmanuel" does mean 'God with us' but that 'with us' means protection and not that blasphemous 'God on Earth' garbage.

Matthew Chapter 2 is also about the Magi/Magicians of the Zorasteran kind. Which raises interesting questions. 0ne such question is: Why would the God of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). send a Malik/Angel to heathen fire worshipers rather than lsraelis and rabbis?

Only a couple of refutations here, but l doubt you acquired anything.

Hi again Hasanhh! I'm not sure what you mean about a 'padded point,' but let me clarify that I put up those references because someone had asked for them, that's all.

Yes, I actually agree with you somewhat that the placement of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy seems a little odd. But it's hard to deny that Jesus is the only one who fulfills it, historically speaking. I'm sure you agree that he was born of a virgin, as that's in the Qur'an.

You can look the term Immanuel  that way, but that only works through an Islamic lens. Jews already believed that God could take on human form if he wished, and that his desire was to commune with his creation (tabernacle, temple, theophanies throughout the OT). 

As for the Magi, yeah, it's wild! But correct me if I'm wrong -- don't youu believe God can send revelations to every culture (as per the Qur'an verses in the OP)? And prompt pagans to seek him in truth? I believe that he can and does. That's what I see here. 
 

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I'll reply in bold face type:

6 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Hi again Hasanhh! I'm not sure what you mean about a 'padded point,' but let me clarify that I put up those references because someone had asked for them, that's all.  -OK. thanx

Yes, I actually agree with you somewhat that the placement of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy seems a little odd. But it's hard to deny that Jesus is the only one who fulfills it, historically speaking.Nope, not true.  I'm sure you agree that he was born of a virgin, as that's in the Qur'an. Often, for the sake of christology, the word meaning 'bride' has virgin substituted in. Check your library.

You can look the term Immanuel  that way, but that only works through an Islamic lens.--:hahaha: it is a Jewish name with a jewish meaning, as for example 'Levi' means associate/associated with.   Jews already believed that God could take on human form if he wished,You are referring to the wrestling match? Besides, what does Matt3:9 and Luke3:8 have?  and that his desire was to commune with his creation (tabernacle, temple, theophanies throughout the OT). --:angry:What is this 'commune with creation' cwap? Re-read Genesis Chapter 1. What does it reveal throughout? "God seeth that". And there is also 1Kings 19:11-12.

As for the Magi, yeah, it's wild! :hahaha:Compare 1Kings 18:38 But correct me if I'm wrong -- don't youu believe God can send revelations to every culture (as per the Qur'an verses in the OP)?"Can" and "did" are two distinct, unrelated verbs. And prompt pagans to seek him in truth? I believe that he can and does. That's what I see here. Every culture sees Signs.
 

:book:

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9 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:
  • Messiah would establish a new covenant [Jeremiah 31:31]
  • Messiah would be born of a Virgin [Isaiah 7:14]

hi we agree with these two because we see Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as a reformer that his reforms in Judaism turned it like as new religion as Imam Mahdi (aj) will reform Islam so much that will looks like a new religion again that Prophet Isa has main rule in Shia Islam prophecies like as new reformer for Christianity again that will help many of Christians accepts fresh real Islam by themselves not by force & injeel called as "Good news" because it was saying last Prophet will come that will lead all humankind to eternal salvation & happiness that his signs was crystal clear for Jews & Christians that the signs was more clear for Jews but they rejected when saw clear signs but Christians because of teaching of Prophet ISA (عليه السلام) showed better reaction than Jews. 

10 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Jesus' title in the Qur'an is 'al Masi,' meaning The Messiah. It is one of the things in the Qur'an that I agree with, even though I hold the book as a whole to be in error.

Anyway, I'll show you those Messiah references a little later.

Massi means person that touched by divinity or satan in Qur'an ,in Qur'an said the people that eat (living on) usury will rise again in judgment day like as touched by Satan/Shaitan also equivalent of Antichrist as Dajjal that has main role in Sunni prophecies described as person that touched by Satan/Shaitan that because of that they say he will be "one eyed" & in complete text titled as "Massi Dajjal"  but Prophet Isa/Jesus touched by divinity of Allah & supported by Spirit of Allah (Ruh ul Alllah ) that also uses as another title of Prophet ISA (عليه السلام) which about people of east that will carry real black flags & will help Imam Mahdi (aj) & Prophet ISA (عليه السلام) said that they will gather around "Ruh ul Alllah " that  it was name of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) too that modern speakers interpreted the promised  "Ruh ul Alllah " as him .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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9 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Messiah would establish a new covenant [Jeremiah 31:31]

Out of context.

Jeremiah Chapters 31-32 is a rebuke of the people written as if Jehovah spoke so much. The "new covenant" is for their sins of libations to the Queen of Heaven and other such superstitions is they will be delivered into the hands of the King of Babylon.

 

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15 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

We don't think of him merely as a Prophet. We worship him as God. So when he speaks God's wisdom, he isn't prophesying; he's speaking from his own wisdom and knowledge).

This is what has been condemned by God categorically in Qur'an. Rest assure that Jesus too would reject such assumptions drawn by Christians.

 

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28 minutes ago, Cool said:

This is what has been condemned by God categorically in Qur'an. Rest assure that Jesus too would reject such assumptions drawn by Christians.

 

Hi Cool,

I know the Qur'an denies it. Yet it also affirms the scriptures that teach it.
Jesus made many statements in the Injeel asserting his divinity. He also accepted worship from people, told people to pray in his name, claimed to have authority to forgive sin, and he referred to himself many many times as the Son of Man prophesied by Daniel, hundreds of years earlier, who was undeniably a divine figure (yes to the Jews as well). 

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7 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

Jesus made many statements in the Injeel asserting his divinity. He also accepted worship from people

:bismillah:

Surah 5, Verse 116:
وَإِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلْتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَٰهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلَا أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلَّامُ الْغُيُوبِ

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
(English - Shakir)

Surah 5, Verse 117:
مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
(English - Shakir)

And after that I love the words Jesus would say as mentioned in Qur'an

Surah 5, Verse 118:
إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَإِن تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

If Thou shouldst chastise them, then surely they are Thy servants; and if Thou shouldst forgive them, then surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
(English - Shakir)

Edited by Cool
Correction of Chapter #

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@hasanhh, I didn't see your earlier post with the bold text.
 

Often, for the sake of christology, the word meaning 'bride' has virgin substituted in. Check your library.
Sure, but it can be used for both, and when it regards Jesus, it obviously means virgin; saying that "the bride shall conceive and be with child" isn't all that impressive, LOL. Brides do that all the time. BTW, if you don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin that's fine but obviously you're not a Muslim, because the Qur'an even acknowledges this (19:16-22 and elsewhere). 

Immanuel--:hahaha: it is a Jewish name with a jewish meaning, as for example 'Levi' means associate/associated with. 
Yes, but sometimes, as you know, words are applied with specific meanings and purposes. Like how you can have a recitation of a poem in Arabic, but that recitation is not the same thing as the Qur'an. Like the name Yeshua; it means savior, and some people have this as a name. But only Jesus actually merited the name, hence angels came to proclaim his conception and birth, etc.

(theophanies) -- You are referring to the wrestling match?
Yes, that would be one example. Many others, some already mentioned.

Besides, what does Matt3:9 and Luke3:8 have?   Not sure what you're getting at, you'll need to explain that.

:angry:What is this 'commune with creation' cwap? Re-read Genesis Chapter 1. What does it reveal throughout? "God seeth that". And there is also 1Kings 19:11-12.
It's not cwap! :D the Biblical message is that we (humanity) need to be made pure of our sins so that we can be in God's presence once again. In the Garden, Adam and Eve could be in his presence (before the fall). In the end-times prophecies, we see that humanity will be in God's presence once again, after restoration. God's plan is for us to be with him, because true satisfaction only comes by being in his presence. 
And there is also 1Kings 19:11-12.
Yes, that would be another one.

As for the Magi, yeah, it's wild! :hahaha:Compare 1Kings 18:38 But correct me if I'm wrong -- don't youu believe God can send revelations to every culture (as per the Qur'an verses in the OP)?"Can" and "DID" are two distinct, unrelated verbs. And prompt pagans to seek him in truth? I believe that he can and does. That's what I see here. Every culture sees Signs.
I don't understand why you would doubt that God would reveal things to pagans. Muhammad was a pagan before his prophethood, right? So was Abraham (he was from a culture which worshipped the moon). Plus, haven't you already asserted on this very thread that God did send warners to every culture with messages, and they distorted or erased those messages? I don't understand your views if you think that's true but, then you also don't think that God might reveal to these Magi that he is doing something really important in Israel, and they need to go meet the Messiah. 

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