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In the Name of God بسم الله
thegoodman81

What happened to the other warnings?

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Greetings everyone! I'm curious to hear the Muslim response to a question that has been on my mind. 

Q 6:115 and 18:27 both state that no one can change Allah's words: 
18:27 -- And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge. 
6:114-115 -- [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Qur'an also teaches that every nation has received a Prophet, and presumably an Islamic message. 
10:47 -- And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.
22:67 -- For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.
 

My question would be this: 

If no one can change Allah's words, why has the Islamic message disappeared from every culture aside from those influenced by Muhammad's iteration of Islam? 

For example, the Tlingit don't believe in Allah, or perform Salat, or do halal slaughter, or any other Islamic practice. Neither did the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Pigmies, the Sentinelese, the Japanese... nor do Christians or Jews. The fact is that most of the world's faiths bore no resemblance to Islam in Muhammad's day, and most of them contradicted it. 

So, if Allah sent revelation to all the nations of the Earth, and none can change his words, why does his message seem to have essentially disappeared until Muhammad's ministry?

Thanks guys, looking forward to hearing some ideas!
 

Edited by thegoodman81
spelling error

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Hello Starlight! Thanks for your thoughts!

You said a couple of things in there that I wanted to quote...
"Because people have always distorted the teachings of the true religions..."
"... there will be people who will twist it to use it to their wishes..."


I agree with those statements, but doesn't your statement actually disagree with what the Qur'an verses said?

They said there is nobody capable of changing Allah's words. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're saying is that people do change his words. Twisting them to suit their tastes probably wouldn't qualify, in my opinion. But Hinduism certainly isn't true to the Islamic message. Neither is Zoroastrianism, pantheism, Buddhism, animism, etc -- these are completely different from Islam in every important way. And supposedly these people had revelation on par with that of Muhammad. If the Qur'an were correct, the message should have been at least preserved, even if it wasn't followed.  As the Muslim conquest expanded, they should have met other Muslims already living in those foreign lands, but they did not. So if it's true that they all had a warner from Allah, the words that Allah gave them through that warner were changed (either modified beyond recognition, or replaced altogether). 

The Christian view is very different. We believe God spoke to mankind first through the Hebrew Prophets, then gave his greatest and clearest revelation to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ, and then commanded his followers to take the great message of Jesus to every nation, precisely because they hadn't yet received a revelation. So it makes sense that most of the world is living in spiritual error. 

I think the Christian timeline better explains the state of the world. Because if Islam is true, then at least some of the cultures around the world should have already been visibly Muslim (or minimally, had some Muslims living within them) prior to the time of Muhammad, and up until today. But that's not the case. And in fact, Christianity is still being spread to places where it has not yet been heard. 

So, as much as I do respect your answer, I don't think it squares with your text, and I don't think it has explanatory power in regards to the actual state of the world...

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I am sorry, I thought you were a Muslim. The examples I gave won't hold any meaning for you so you are not able to get my point. Tawhid has always been there from day one, unchanged, whether people choose to follow or ignore it is another issue.

Peace.

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2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Greetings everyone! I'm curious to hear the Muslim response to a question that has been on my mind. 

Q 6:115 and 18:27 both state that no one can change Allah's words: 
18:27 -- And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge. 
6:114-115 -- [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Qur'an also teaches that every nation has received a Prophet, and presumably an Islamic message. 
10:47 -- And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.
22:67 -- For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.
 

My question would be this: 

If no one can change Allah's words, why has the Islamic message disappeared from every culture aside from those influenced by Muhammad's iteration of Islam?  

For example, the Tlingit don't believe in Allah, or perform Salat, or do halal slaughter, or any other Islamic practice. Neither did the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Pigmies, the Sentinelese, the Japanese... nor do Christians or Jews. The fact is that most of the world's faiths bore no resemblance to Islam in Muhammad's day, and most of them contradicted it.  

So, if Allah sent revelation to all the nations of the Earth, and none can change his words, why does his message seem to have essentially disappeared until Muhammad's ministry?

Thanks guys, looking forward to hearing some ideas!
 

It seems your question itself is confusing as it seems to have mistakes. Conceptual mistakes.

First of all, "Allah" is not really a personal name rather it is Arabic for "the God" (Al-Lah). Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than "Allah". He has thousands of names. Even in Qur'an He is sometimes called Rehman which means "the Beneficient" or Rahim "the merciful" or Ghafoor "the forgiving" or Aleem "the all knowing" and so on. I think I should write that for a Christian like yourself He may be described as who you refer to as "the Father (God)" and the difference between us is that we know that He has no offspring or spouse as He is only one of His kind and He has no equals to marry into, neither begets nor is begotten. This trinity of yours is something that the secular temporal monarch Constantine conspired with a bunch of hypocrite men of cloth and made. This is what always happens with religion, it gets distorted over time and monarchs and some influential worldly priests divide and rule over people this way and innovations, deviations and sects appear. Sects in Islam were similarly backed by Abbasid caliphs and their pet mullahs for instance and it profited them. And as Arius of Alexandria and all monotheists were dubbed rebels for only being right and not changing, so are we the Shia even though we are not a religious sect and we were never founded and even though other sects came centuries later after us. You think Christianity is not from "The God" / who we call Allah in Arabic? Jesus (عليه السلام) was also a Prophet of the same and only one God. His mother Maryam (عليه السلام) is regarded by us as one of the best women ever. Among Prophets of "the God" was Moses, Joseph, Zakaria, Abraham, Jonas, Noah, Adam, all of them, 124000 in total. So if one of the iterations of the monotheism, Christians, can become polytheists and pagans by starting to worship their Prophet, who knows what went on with Hindus for instance to see them in the state they finally exist today. With each new message the rituals evolved, I think they became harder, but the essence of the message is the same, always. Do good. Remove evil. Benefit society. Speak truth. Be honest. Be brave. Be grateful. Be forgiving. Be modest. Be nice. Do not steal. Do not fornicate. Do not be unjust. Believe in afterlife. Believe in a Creator. Obey the Prophet. Value knowledge. Do not be greedy. So on. There are 2250+ such commands in the Qur'an. I hope now you found some clarity and did not just waste my time for writing this brother.

Edited by Darth Vader

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4 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Greetings everyone! I'm curious to hear the Muslim response to a question that has been on my mind. 

Q 6:115 and 18:27 both state that no one can change Allah's words: 
18:27 -- And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge. 
6:114-115 -- [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Qur'an also teaches that every nation has received a Prophet, and presumably an Islamic message. 
10:47 -- And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.
22:67 -- For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.
 

My question would be this: 

If no one can change Allah's words, why has the Islamic message disappeared from every culture aside from those influenced by Muhammad's iteration of Islam? 

For example, the Tlingit don't believe in Allah, or perform Salat, or do halal slaughter, or any other Islamic practice. Neither did the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Pigmies, the Sentinelese, the Japanese... nor do Christians or Jews. The fact is that most of the world's faiths bore no resemblance to Islam in Muhammad's day, and most of them contradicted it. 

So, if Allah sent revelation to all the nations of the Earth, and none can change his words, why does his message seem to have essentially disappeared until Muhammad's ministry?

Thanks guys, looking forward to hearing some ideas!
 

Just like any religion or belief or dogma or idea, it gets distorted with years. Just like Christianity, Judaism.

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Hi everybody. I still don't know how to tag someone by name in a comment like this, but thanks Bow Tie and Darth Vader for your answers (and Starlight too, of course!). Sorry I am only responding now; I try not to spend a lot of time online.

By the way, Darth Vader, Constantine did not introduce the Trinity, that's a historical misunderstanding that I'd like to correct. Constantine was not a theologian, even. "Trinity" was a word that the Church used to describe a concept found in the Bible (that the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are all God but are distinct persons), much like Tawheed describes a concept found in the Qur'an, but isn't in the Qur'an itself.
Also, many Muslims I have talked to disagree with you (that Allah is not God's name), but I will defer to your opinion on that point. I'm sure you are correct, because the alternative makes no sense at all! Although I imagine you would probably agree that Islam teaches that we should refer to God as Allah, rather than Yahweh (which means "I Am," and which is his self-declared name in the Torah), and that this is at least a little weird in the grand scheme of history. 

Personally, I believe that people can introduce false beliefs (which is why there are so many religions in the world) but that the true message will be protected for all time, and will never be fully extinguished. This is because God's justice would not allow mankind to be cut off from his true revelation, since we require it to have a fair opportunity to worship him rightly. So in this view, it makes sense that there are many false religions out there. I think most of you would agree with that. 

However, the explanations provided by the three of you on this thread make a different claim, and I think it's one that is not honoring to God. Because what you're implying is that God allowed many, many generations of people to live and die with no opportunity at all to know who he is or what he asks of us vis a vis salvation. Do you believe that God would allow billions of people to be completely cut off from his truth? Wouldn't that mean he created them specifically to send them to an eternity in Hell?

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Welcome brother. I am sorry earlier I thought you might not return or wanted to have an actual discussion, but it seems your concerns are genuine. Glad to see that.

On 8/15/2019 at 9:59 PM, thegoodman81 said:

 Tawheed describes a concept found in the Qur'an, but isn't in the Qur'an itself.

Brother Tawhid means monotheism, it comes from the word "wahid" which means "one". This "one" is indivisible and unusual. The Qur'an in fact goes to lengths to establish monotheism and sights in detail the preaching of the past Prophets. Qur'an then clearly warns of associating others with the one God and makes that one of the biggest offenses possible to God. It then speaks of Christians who have fallen for this. Whereas in the bible, nowhere does Jesus say "I am God so worship me". However, does it not strike you strange that of all Abrahamic monotheist religions yours is polytheistic? I know there are explanations for it, that no actually the three are the same being in different forms and so on. We can debate this aspect indefinitely. There are offshoots from our own doctrine of the Shia and some people decided to worship Ali (عليه السلام) and it was foretold by our Prophet that Ali is like Jesus and whoever gets excessive in praising the two will face the hellfire as will those who hold animosity to the two. As your brother in humanity I want to advise you to consider this. Is it necessary to accept Jesus as God? Is reverence and obedience as a very honored Prophet of the Creator not enough? As some Christian sects did or still do? Not make Jesus a God? And how do you do that? If a child reveres someone, they try to imitate them. Do we then try to live like Jesus, or Muhammad or Ali? Abandoning worldly pursuits, desires, sacrificing the self, being patient, tolerant, loving, forgiving, truthful, upright, and with each breath and each moment living only to seek the pleasure of our Creator? Who among us can claim that? And was that not the message for mankind? I know clerics and priests will all have explanations but we are simple men, you and I, and we use our faculty of reason. I hope you will be able to grasp what I meant to communicate to you.

 

On 8/15/2019 at 9:59 PM, thegoodman81 said:

Do you believe that God would allow billions of people to be completely cut off from his truth? Wouldn't that mean he created them specifically to send them to an eternity in Hell?

Brother that would be injustice and we do not believe that God is unjust. He judges people according to their circumstance and the amount of knowledge they were exposed to. So if someone was truly in the dark about something he or she is pardoned for that. It only becomes a problem when someone knowingly does wrong. That knowledge can even come in the form of inspiration, or remorse or from the faculty of reason or conscience and does not necessarily mean from other people. Just like Abraham reviews the various objects which were worshiped and rejected them. For instance the Sun when it set Abraham said "how can that be God?" or the statues/idols of his people when he broke its arm and it could not protect itself. God is everywhere unbound and unconfined physically or by words or imagination. Or perhaps you meant that God already had knowledge of who are the inmates of hellfire from among men? Of course He does, and He has told us that in the Qur'an. However He has given everyone opportunity for self correction and especially evil individuals we can observe that they get extra respite in this life, I think for this reason.

 

On 8/15/2019 at 9:59 PM, thegoodman81 said:

Personally, I believe that people can introduce false beliefs (which is why there are so many religions in the world) but that the true message will be protected for all time, and will never be fully extinguished. This is because God's justice would not allow mankind to be cut off from his true revelation, since we require it to have a fair opportunity to worship him rightly. So in this view, it makes sense that there are many false religions out there. I think most of you would agree with that. 

Of course. Islam literally has some dozens of sects due to alterations. So did Christianity. We both and others know of even very obvious false religions. May I add that I have observed that there is no perfect religion. Just like there exists no perfect human being. Maybe its just our perceptions or expectations. But certainly there exist 'better' ones and a best one. Speaking of us human beings I feel we have lost the meaning of religion in this day and age. For so many of us, religion today is only something that resides on the tongue, something we can not or will not swallow and wear it like our clothes and mold ourselves according to it except few. However when it does come to the features that the biggest religions out there expect its followers to have then we have vast areas of common ground, but only if we practice these religions. The common ground of truthfulness, honesty, sacrifice, devotion, modesty, right action, helping others, charity, and so on, -all- good traits. In these dark times all religious people should come closer based on these common grounds.

Edited by Darth Vader

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On 8/8/2019 at 9:45 PM, thegoodman81 said:

If no one can change Allah's words, why has the Islamic message disappeared from every culture aside from those influenced by Muhammad's iteration of Islam? 

Hello thegoodman81,

Hope you're well. The question you ask is quite paradoxical with in itself, hence it's easy to not be able to understand it in one go, it needs to be dissected.

The first part 'IF NO ONE CAN CHANGE Allah'S WORDS'. You can either believe that 'no one can change Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) words' OR 'Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) words CAN be changed'.

I assume that you agree with the latter, I agree with the former.

The second part. To answer the second part, you and I need to understand what each of us mean by 'the Islamic message', 'Muhammad's iteration of Islam'. This will only BEGIN to answer the question you've asked.

Credit to you for posting a deep and a thought provoking question. If you can continue posting, may be you and I can take this discussion forward in an organised and respectful manner.

Kind regards,

Khudi

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On 8/8/2019 at 5:00 PM, thegoodman81 said:

They said there is nobody capable of changing Allah's words. 

And no one has. However, just like Christianity, people interpreted God’s words differently. The Qur'an is God’s words, no one has changed them ever since their revelation.

The reason why Christianity circulated more was because of politics. He who rules the world spreads their message more. The Christians ruled and colonised most of the world for a longer period of time, that’s how they spread their message.

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:45 AM, thegoodman81 said:

Greetings everyone! I'm curious to hear the Muslim response to a question that has been on my mind. 

Q 6:115 and 18:27 both state that no one can change Allah's words: 
18:27 -- And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge. 
6:114-115 -- [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Qur'an also teaches that every nation has received a Prophet, and presumably an Islamic message. 
10:47 -- And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.
22:67 -- For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.
 

My question would be this: 

If no one can change Allah's words, why has the Islamic message disappeared from every culture aside from those influenced by Muhammad's iteration of Islam? 

For example, the Tlingit don't believe in Allah, or perform Salat, or do halal slaughter, or any other Islamic practice. Neither did the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Pigmies, the Sentinelese, the Japanese... nor do Christians or Jews. The fact is that most of the world's faiths bore no resemblance to Islam in Muhammad's day, and most of them contradicted it. 

So, if Allah sent revelation to all the nations of the Earth, and none can change his words, why does his message seem to have essentially disappeared until Muhammad's ministry?

Thanks guys, looking forward to hearing some ideas!
 

Qur'an says no change can there be in the words of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), it means that guidance will always be there no matter if the previous Prophets teachings have been ignored or lost or disappeared that is what written in Qur'an that when nations forgot their lessons another Prophet came. It is to be noted that all religions do contain some what ethics which reminds it had influence of a Prophet. So, words of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) always remained which in end are secured by Qur'an.

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@thegoodman81 We believe that Prophet Muhammad (S) is the Seal of the Prophets (the last messenger sent to humanity by God).

This necessitates that his message is not distorted, unlike the previous revelations (Torah, Bible, Psalms). Because if it was distorted, another Prophet would need to be sent to revive monotheism. But the Holy Prophet (S) is the Final Prophet. Therefore this revelation (The Qu'ran) will never be distorted. And this is how we get:

-

18:27 -- And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge. 

6:114-115 -- [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

-

Hope that makes sense :)

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13 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Salam,

Ayats 3:78 and 4:135 is the answer to the OP's question as the OP expressed it.

Hi Hasanhh!

Here's the thing, I don't think those ayats provide an explanation to the problem. Both of those passages talk about verbal misrepresentation, but verbal misrepresentation is not enough to distort or corrupt a canonized, distributed text to the point of non-existence.  Remember that all of revelations which we all came from God, before Muhammad's era, were immediately preserved in texts. But this is what many of my Muslim friends claim has happened to the Injeel, and which is what must have happened to the Aztecs, the Hindus, etc since no intelligible Islamic message exists in their cultures. 

8 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

And no one has. However, just like Christianity, people interpreted God’s words differently. The Qur'an is God’s words, no one has changed them ever since their revelation.

The reason why Christianity circulated more was because of politics. He who rules the world spreads their message more. The Christians ruled and colonised most of the world for a longer period of time, that’s how they spread their message.

Hello Ibn Al-Shahid!
I have to ask you a question, my friend. Do you believe the Injeel to be uncorrupted? Because if you are right that Christian scripture has been interpreted differently by some readers (which I agree with!), that would seem to imply that you believe the text itself is not problematic (which I also agree with! but it's an unusual position for a Muslim). I would love to hear your thoughts.
 

5 hours ago, Kaya said:

@thegoodman81 We believe that Prophet Muhammad (S) is the Seal of the Prophets (the last messenger sent to humanity by God).

This necessitates that his message is not distorted, unlike the previous revelations (Torah, Bible, Psalms). Because if it was distorted, another Prophet would need to be sent to revive monotheism. But the Holy Prophet (S) is the Final Prophet. Therefore this revelation (The Qu'ran) will never be distorted.....

Hope that makes sense :)

Hi Kaya!
I understand your point, but that seems to conflict with sura 2:285, where we read The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." If Allah is telling people to make no distinction between any of the messengers, and he says no one is able to alter his words,  why believe that he let those previous texts be corrupted? Especially since the Qur'an says nothing but good things about those texts.



Lord Vader, you had a lot of different points that sort of felt a bit far affield from the OP, can we talk those out in PMs?

Edited by thegoodman81

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47 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

Hi Kaya!
I understand your point, but that seems to conflict with sura 2:285, where we read The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." If Allah is telling people to make no distinction between any of the messengers, and he says no one is able to alter his words,  why believe that he let those previous texts be corrupted? Especially since the Qur'an says nothing but good things about those texts.

Yes you are right, we cannot make any distinction in the rank of the messengers, as they were all sent by God Almighty and were infallible. However, they had several things that differentiated them, which are not related to their prophetic essence. For example, they had different names. This is a difference. They were sent in different time periods. This is another difference. Some, like Moses (عليه السلام), David (عليه السلام), Jesus (عليه السلام), and Muhammad (عليه السلام) were sent with holy books, while others were not sent with any scriptures. This is also a difference among them. They had slight differences in the law system that they brought, such as the difference between the laws of Moses (عليه السلام) and Jesus (عليه السلام). 

Point being - We cannot differentiate in terms of prophetic essence or infallibility. But we can acknowledge that they had differences in the circumstances of their prophetic mission.

The previous scriptures were corrupted due to the negligence of the nations that they were sent to. With time, the insincere inherited the scripture from their predecessors, and they were tempted to make changes to the scriptures for either material gains or out of ignorance.

I have read the New Testament front to cover several times. And I have also read most of the Old Testament. There is no doubt that the prophetic wisdom and teachings can still be found in there easily. But it is also easy to observe that some things were added in and some taken out. With the Qu'ran this never happened due to divine preservation. 

Edited by Kaya

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On 8/9/2019 at 2:30 AM, thegoodman81 said:

But Hinduism certainly isn't true to the Islamic message. Neither is Zoroastrianism, pantheism, Buddhism, animism, etc -- these are completely different from Islam in every important way.

hi between these religions Zoroastrianism consider like as Christianity in Holy Qur'an but it's follower calls as [edited out] that Wahabists use word of [edited out] for humilating Shias because both Zoroastrianism & Shia Islam highly related to Iran 

 

On 8/9/2019 at 2:30 AM, thegoodman81 said:

They said there is nobody capable of changing Allah's words. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're saying is that people do change his words. Twisting them to suit their tastes probably wouldn't qualify, in my opinion.

as said in previous posts fallible people in every religion changed interpretations to reach their goal but in Shia Islam infallible Imams are preserving Qur'an word from wrong interpretation that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) clearly said that he is speaking Qur'an & the Qur'an book is mute Qur'an that need interpretation from him & 11 infallible Imam after him that currently 12th Imam is preserving text & teaching of Qur'an  from distortion  that he monitors Shia scholars to keep them on right pass until he reappears & bring all teachings to original place & reveals teachings that keeps by him because it needs promoting people understanding to a new level that will done by him  

 

On 8/15/2019 at 9:29 PM, thegoodman81 said:

I still don't know how to tag someone by name in a comment like this,

you can put "@" before everyone name  to tag him/her  

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2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Hi Hasanhh!

Here's the thing, I don't think those ayats provide an explanation to the problem. Both of those passages talk about verbal misrepresentation, but verbal misrepresentation is not enough to distort or corrupt a canonized, distributed text to the point of non-existence.  Remember that all of revelations which we all came from God, before Muhammad's era, were immediately preserved in texts. But this is what many of my Muslim friends claim has happened to the Injeel, and which is what must have happened to the Aztecs, the Hindus, etc since no intelligible Islamic message exists in their cultures. 

Twiddle Twaddle

"to the point of non-existence" is done by ignoring something into oblivion

Essentially, the whole World rejected Noah -(عليه السلام). so why point to any particular group because most people do reject. You should know Ezekiel 14, for example.  All the nabis and Imams were in the eastern Mediterranean region -which includes the Red Sea.

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@Ashvazdanghe, thanks for telling me how to tag! That is helpful. 

You said "fallible people in every religion changed interpretations to reach their goal." But my friend, that means that the Qur'an is wrong. If these people managed to change God's words, whether intentionally or on accident, they show that the Qur'an is incorrect to say that "none can change Allah's words." Do you not see the problem?

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@hasanhh, I think you are making the same mistake as Ashvazdanghe. Both of you say that the true messages from God were ignored, and this caused them to be lost. Well, that would certainly change the texts, don't you think? I like that phrase "twiddle twaddle," though, LOL. I have never heard that before!

@Kaya, I think you are making the same error as well, claiming that people can corrupt God's messages by accident. Hmm. You have all answered the same way, affirming that no one can change Allah's words.... but his words have been changed because people are imperfect. This is contradictory.
 

The Qur'an says nobody can alter/corrupt God's words. It's either true or it isn't, and it has to include every manner of change (accidental, intentional, verbal, textual, past present and future). Doesn't that bother anyone? 

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21 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Lord Vader, you had a lot of different points that sort of felt a bit far affield from the OP, can we talk those out in PMs?

My friend I request you to do it here, so that our conversation may be available to so many readers. But if you still wish to PM me I will reply.

 

P.S.: I am flattered to read "Lord Vader" however its just a silly ruse. I am closer to a monk in reality.

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4 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

@Ashvazdanghe, thanks for telling me how to tag! That is helpful. 

You said "fallible people in every religion changed interpretations to reach their goal." But my friend, that means that the Qur'an is wrong. If these people managed to change God's words, whether intentionally or on accident, they show that the Qur'an is incorrect to say that "none can change Allah's words." Do you not see the problem?

hi , you can compare it with yourself that all ISIS/Daesh head choppers were interpreting Qur'an word wrongly although text of it is same between Sunnis & Shias & other branches even evangelists  but they understand & interpret on their idea  the only difference of Shias is that we interpret it based on teaching of former 11 infallible Imams & 12th infallible Imam is fixing errors in interpretation by mean of Marjas (sources of emulation ) in Shia Society until he is in occultation & after reappearance he will be in direct charge that based on Sunni Narration Prophet Muhammad (pbu) was Qur'an himslef & we have narrations  that 12 infallible from his progeny  after him are guardians of Qur'an after him in both  field of keeping Text & meaning that 12th Imam will bring back again original divine texts from Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) to Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) (Jesus)   beside Qur'an & will use these texts under shadow of Qur'an teaching .

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5 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

@hasanhh, I think you are making the same mistake as Ashvazdanghe. Both of you say that the true messages from God were ignored, and this caused them to be lost. Well, that would certainly change the texts, don't you think?

I like that phrase "twiddle twaddle," though, LOL. I have never heard that before!  This was aid often when l was little.

 

The Qur'an says nobody can alter/corrupt God's words. It's either true or it isn't, and it has to include every manner of change (accidental, intentional, verbal, textual, past present and future). Doesn't that bother anyone? 

You are trying to create a debate when the Qur'an is self-explained.

Messages and Reminders were/are ignored, "thrown behind their backs", but also because many people hate the revelation of the God of Noah, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Ayats 47:9 and 47:26  --where the tri-literal root word's emphasis equals "hate" while in other emphases elsewhere in Qur'an the word becomes "dislike".

To reply to your third paragraph rhetorically, "Can you '81 alter Hasan's words while l still exist and say them?". No, of course you cannot. If you can't and no one else can change the speech of a mere created person, who can then change the Words of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). ?

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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

You are trying to create a debate when the Qur'an is self-explained.

Messages and Reminders were/are ignored, "thrown behind their backs", but also because many people hate the revelation of the God of Noah, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Ayats 47:9 and 47:26  --where the tri-literal root word's emphasis equals "hate" while in other emphases elsewhere in Qur'an the word becomes 

Hello all (sorry I have not.had time to address each comment from everybody, I did read them though!)

 

I understand that and agree completely that people ignore God's revelations. And certainly that they can be misinterpreted, like @Ashvazdangheand others have suggested, and yes this can lead to the formation of cults. But again, that's not what I am talking about in this post.

If God protects his messages from corruption, and he wants people to treat his messengers with equal seriousness (make no distinction among them),  then all of his messages should still be found  intact, with at least a small remnant of people following them.

 A message that has been completely lost to mankind innhistory is not intact (as would be the alleged Islamic revelation to all the world's cultures). A message which has been corrupted beyond agreement is not intact (as many Muslims allege happened to the Bible). 

With all due respect, it feels like Muslims are avoiding the issue rather than really looking into it (not just on here, many of my Muslim friends locally as well). Everyone on here has answered the OP by either saying the texts are misinterpreted (which doesnt address the issue of change), lost (which means God can't protect his messages from human error), or changed (which means God can't protect his messages from human evil). I don't believe God to be weak.

Even if every human on Earth worked together to destroy every copy of one of God's messages, erasing it from history, I don't believe they would prevail against God. But it sounds like people here think they could. The Aztecs clearly had no record of Abrahamic monotheism, for example. Which means they either never received a revelation  (which, again, fits the Christian view) or they did and they managed to overpower God and get rid of it, leaving their people in ignorant polytheism and practicing human sacrifice. That view insults God, my friends.

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On 8/19/2019 at 7:52 AM, thegoodman81 said:

If God protects his messages from corruption, and he wants people to treat his messengers with equal seriousness (make no distinction among them),  then all of his messages should still be found  intact, with at least a small remnant of people following them.

Hi , God certainly protected his message from corruption that in Qur'an says a little group of Christians that calls them as ‘Nasari’ & very little of Jews also following truth that their number is lesser than Christians in Islam his message preserved by Shias 

 

On 8/19/2019 at 7:52 AM, thegoodman81 said:

. But it sounds like people here think they c

Same as it mentions in Qur'an that some people tried the truth but at the end they failed 

 

On 8/19/2019 at 7:52 AM, thegoodman81 said:

The Aztecs clearly had no record of Abrahamic monotheism, for example. Which means they either never received a revelation  (which, again, fits the Christian view) or they did and they managed to overpower God and get rid of it, leaving their people in ignorant polytheism and practicing human sacrifice. That view insults God, my friends.

If you search you can find some joint points in their stories that have similarities with Abrahamic faith ,also some of native Americans are claiming that they had Islamic roots or at least have common ground in morals with Muslims  & every polytheistic religion like as native Americans belief & Hinduism had monotheist roots that forgotten by people that it happened many time like as people in time of Prophet Noah (عليه السلام) that they take their pious people as idol by delusional work of Satan by making their idols in name of remembrance of God but by passing time they forgot God & staged worshiping idol & scarifying for idols instead of Allah , I think you can ask from sister @Hameedeh for more information.

 Native Americans ‘Muslim Roots & history by Louis butcher Jr

[Mod Note: The "Why did you Embrace Islam" topic is only available to Veteran members (joined before 2014) inside the private Veteran forum:]

Native American Islam before Columbus?

 

Edited by Hameedeh
Mod Note

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2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

then all of his messages should still be found  

Not so.

There is no copy of the book Ibrahim -(عليه السلام). was given.

Whatever was left of the Torah was altered during the Maccabean Era 200-300+ BCC.

The Psalm David was given has no known copy.

There is no known copy of the Injeel.

The Qur'an is a protected book. Ayat 56:78

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50 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Not so.

There is no copy of the book Ibrahim -(عليه السلام). was given.

Whatever was left of the Torah was altered during the Maccabean Era 200-300+ BCC.

The Psalm David was given has no known copy.

There is no known copy of the Injeel.

The Qur'an is a protected book. Ayat 56:78

My friend, you are proving my point. You just said:

Book of Ibrahim - lost

Torah - altered

Psalms - lost

Injeel - lost

Of course I disagree with you; we have the Torah, the Psalms, and the Injeel just like they existed before the time of Muhammad (which Muhammad also believed, see Q 10:94). But that aside,  your problem here is that you disagree with your own Qur'an. You believe humans can corrupt and delete the revelations of God.

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4 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

You believe humans can corrupt and delete the revelations of God.

Ain't never said or implied anything of the kind that such activity will be successful with Qur'an. 0nly Qur'an is a protected Book -there will always be an accurate one.

I don't know about Torah or Psalm, but one story was added to the New Testament in the 9th Century in Germany and was not generally deleted until the second half of the 20th Century. There are also several different manuscripts that England and Germany chased after in the 19th Century.

Re-read the third paragraph in my post 8 hours previous to this one.

 

@Mod Motion to close this topic as frivolously argumentative. 

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@hasanhh, close it if you want but the problem persists. I hope you take time to read this over...

Your Qur'an makes it very clear that the scriptures of the Jews and Christians were indeed true revelations from God. This means they were God's words. According to your Qur'an, people aren't able to change God's words. I agree with that particular claim (though obviously I disagree with much of the Qur'an); you supplied a good line of evidence for this yourself above, when you said "...one story was added to the New Testament in the 9th Century in Germany and was not generally deleted until the second half of the 20th Century." This shows that people tried it, and it ultimately failed. Crucially, this was an insertion, not a deletion or a replacement. The true text was never lost in that process. By the way, if you could provide a link as some evidence of that I would enjoy reading it, as that is news to me.

Remember too that your Qur'an clarifies not only that the words of God can't be changed, but also specifically that there are no people capable of changing them. I don't think your stance squares with this. Not if you think that there were people capable of losing or deleting scriptures of the past, which Allah tells us in the Qur'an are still valid (Q 10:94)

I also have a quesiton along this line. If the scriptures of the past were truly corrupted by the time Muhammad lived, why didn't Allah say "the Qur'an came to correct the errors in the previous scripture," or "the Qur'an came to replace the previous scripture"? Instead it says only "to affirm what came before." I don't believe the Muslim has any reason to doubt the Bible, but plenty of reasons to doubt the Qur'an. 


Sorry if there are errors, I'm typing fast because I want to post this before the thread is shut down. 

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I know we're probably getting shut down here soon, so I just wanted to say it's been a real pleasure to have these discussions!

I hope that at no time I came off as confrontational, rude, or mean-spirited. That was never my intention, but I know that it's very hard to read tone and intention on the Internet. :( So, if we get to continue, that would be great! I really hope it doesn't get shut down. But if we can't, thanks again and I pray that God will bless each of you on the thread. I pray that the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said, would guide you into all truth. 

Thanks, have a great week! :rolleyes:

OH, and, message me if you want to continue any of these lines of thought. Adios!

 

Edited by thegoodman81

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:45 AM, thegoodman81 said:

If no one can change Allah's words, why has the Islamic message disappeared from every culture

:bismillah:

Indeed no one can change Allah's words. 

3:18-19 Allah bears witness that there is no God but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.  Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

 لَقَدْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ عَلَى أَكْثَرِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
36:7  Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe.

وَلَوْ شِئْنَا لَآتَيْنَا كُلَّ نَفْسٍ هُدَاهَا وَلَكِنْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ مِنِّي لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ
32:13  And if We had so willed, We could have given (imposed) every soul its guidance, but the word from Me concerning evildoers took effect: that I will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:45 AM, thegoodman81 said:

why does his message seem to have essentially disappeared until Muhammad's ministry?

Bible confirms Torah, Qur'an confirms all 3 earlier scriptures. Before these three earlier scriptures, you will find many religions who teaches the oneness of God (Touheed). 

From Adam to Muhammad, the main message remains the same I.e., Touheed. And it is also in our very nature. 

 

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Once agin' '81'Committee

16 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

 the problem persists. ..   at least the mentality does

Your Qur'an  "Our Qur'an" to be correct because it is a warning and a hope for all mankind.

. By the way, if you could provide a link as some evidence of that I would enjoy reading it, as that is news to me. It is in one of my books, somewhere.

Remember too that your Qur'an clarifies not only that the words of God can't be changed, but also specifically that there are no people capable of changing them. I don't think your stance squares with this. Not if you think that there were people capable of losing or deleting scriptures of the past, which Allah tells us in the Qur'an are still valid (Q 10:94) Your reference does not specifically apply, PLUS as in Ayat 4:46 reveals, at the time of the Prophet -(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.  people were deliberately mispronouncing what was revealed. You are presuming that Allah-(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). sends a revelation like it is a business letter and not keep a copy for Himself -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  People can and do alter their copies but they cannot alter the Words on His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). copy. Or can you reach into Jenna? 

 I worked in Asia for a couple of years, and one example l heard a few times that applies to your 'change' argument was "Can't their God tell the same story the same way twice?" referring to the Xian missionaries. So 'change' is mostly a Xian 'problem'. 

I also have a quesiton along this line. If the scriptures of the past were truly corrupted by the time Muhammad lived, why didn't Allah say "the Qur'an came to correct the errors in the previous scripture," or "the Qur'an came to replace the previous scripture"? Instead it says only "to affirm what came before." Qur'an does not  confine itself with your word of "only". Follow how Qur'an has the word CLEAR in just this one Sura, 
2:185, 187, 219, 221, 242, 253 -with the word 'fought', 266. [You can add for example 'corrupt'/'mischief' as at 10:81.] 

I don't believe the Muslim has any reason to doubt the Bible, but plenty of reasons to doubt the Qur'an. [:hahaha: ]

Sorry if there are errors, I'm typing fast because I want to post this before the thread is shut down. 

This has been my quick retort.

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17 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Your Qur'an makes it very clear that the scriptures of the Jews and Christians were indeed true revelations from God. This means they were God's words. According to your Qur'an, people aren't able to change God's words. I agree with that particular claim

Qur'an says previous original divine books not corrupted but original books hide from people by Rabbis & priests & they just show the parts that was suitable for them & filled the gaps from censorship with their their words but still a few number of them knew about original books but keep these as s cret from people but Qur'an in full text without censorship  is available to everyone but our understanding from it is different that Imam Mahdi (aj) has access to All divine books & will show these books to people after his reappearance to shows reality to people & people will recognize truth from falsehood.

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@hasanhh

When I said "only" I did not mean that that is the one and only purpose of the Qur'an.  I meant that in regards to its relationship with the scriptures of the Christian's and Jews, the Qur'an says it affirms. That it confirms them, in other surahs. If there is any criticism of the biblical books in the Qur'an please share them. So far I haven't found any.

So if it's true that the New Testament had been corrupted, why does Allah not at least say something about that? I'm re-asking this, because your retort didn't truly address it. You said the Qur'an is clear, and offered some verses on a variety of topics. Well, if the Bible is corrupt then the Qur'an is not clear, and it's clear then the Bible is not corrupt. don’t you see the issue?

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