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Noor Taleb

Exaggeration

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On 8/9/2019 at 11:01 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

People misunderstand the concept of Tawassul. Yes, I do also believe that some people do take it next level, but kissing the shrines of the Imams (عليه السلام), praying next to their tomb, making dua is common and is not associated with shirk.

Some people do take it to the next level, which is sad because we have these Salafis that'll do anything just to make Shias look bad so they'll pick out these type of people to make us look like we're mushrikeen.

The Prophet (sawas) and his Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are always amongst us. 

This is what I mean when people misunderstand the concept of Tawassul. Think of it as you asking somebody to make dua for you, is that considered shirk? This is what Tawassul is. We are asking the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام) to make dua for us.

We are asking for our needs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by getting closer to the people who are the closest to him, and that is the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Shirk is when we ask them to forgive our sins, to accept our prayers, to cure our sickness. If we ask for all those things, we're doing it through these pious people who are the face of Allah on this Earth. 

This is tawassul. But sadly, nowadays some shi’a ask from our holy Imams (عليه السلام) to forgive their sins, this is why I never did tawassul. 

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26 minutes ago, Diaz said:

What? I did not get it, please explain.

It’s not for you brother 

but for some people who constantly bring women down if any one on my thread brings any woman down I will bring him down as well InshAllah!

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On 8/7/2019 at 9:53 PM, Noor Taleb said:

Who know maybe they are of pagan origins

It doesn't need to be, but it may very well be the same process or inherent ability in humans that confused the message in previous times.

On 8/7/2019 at 9:53 PM, Noor Taleb said:

and an interesting fact is that I visit a place
where these things are made and honored like
cried upon and stuff it’s painful
to watch 

Visiting a mosque or a holy shrine can be a very emotional experience and if that emotion stem from God I wouldn't call it Shirk. Then what about when people become emotional about Imam Husayn and Karbala is that also Shirk? I think it is better to assume that most people know to make the distinction.

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Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) will teach and bring us to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the correct way.

When the Noor of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is in the heart, then the person will ONLY see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), nothing else.  During that state...ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly. Let He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) see Noor of Ahlul Bayt in you when you asking Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That Noor is the Noor of a slave calling the Rab.

Love of Ahlul Bayt and follow their ways are what required.

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On 8/9/2019 at 11:01 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

People misunderstand the concept of Tawassul.

Yes indeed.

On 8/9/2019 at 9:59 AM, Cool said:

Ok, why there is a verse in Qur'an mentioning that when any from companions do wrong they used to meet Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and request him to ask for their forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Example above. Even though it is in the very sentence that they asked him the forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), people persist in believing that the bounty is coming from the intercessor I.e Prophet or Imam (sawas).

And on top of that, try to make you feel guilty of not understanding the right meaning of it.

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14 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

Because then the Prophet was among them.

*Not getting involved in the istighatha argument just want to make a point*

The fact is he can hear us near his grave as this hadith demonstrates:

Quote

Narrated to me my father, and Muhammad ibn Al-Hasan, from Al-Husayn ibn Al-Hasan ibn Abaan, from Al-Husayn Ibn Sa'eed, from Fudhala ibn Ayoob, and Safwan, and Ibn Abi Umayr, altogether, from Mu'awiyah ibn Ammar from Abi Abdillah (عليه السلام), he said: If you enter Medina then do ghusl before you enter it or when you wish to enter it. Then you proceed to the grave of the Prophet (SAWW) and salute him (send salam). Then you stand at the forparted pillar, from the right side of the grave, at the head of the grave, whilst you are facing the Qibla, with your left shoulder beside the grave, and your right shoulder from what is following the Pulpit, for it is the place of the head of the Prophet (SAWW) and you say:

"I testify that there is no God but Allah; He is alone and has no partners and I testify that Muhammad (SAWW) is His slave and Messenger. I testify that you are Allah’s  Messenger (SAWW)  and you are  Muhammad ibn Abdillah. I testify that you delivered the Messages of your Lord, and that you advised your Ummah, and did Jihad for the Sake of Allah, and you worshipped Allah until certainty came unto you with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and you fulfilled what is upon you from the rights, and that you were compassionate to the believers and you were harsh to disbelievers, therefore Allah took you the highest honourable position of the venerable ones.

Praise be to Allah who, through you, saved us from polytheism and deviation.Ya Allah! Confer Your blessings, and the blessings of Your close angels, and the blessings of Your righteous slaves, and the blessings of Your Prophets and Messengers, and the blessings of the inhabitants of the Heavens and the Earths and the blessings of everyone who Exalted the Lord of the Worlds from the first [people] to the latter, on Muhammad (SAWW), Your slave, Your Messenger, Your Prophet, Your trustee, Your confidant, Your beloved, Your chosen one,Your specialty, and the best of Your creation.

Ya Allah! You said, “And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful." And I have come to your Prophet repenting and [asking] forgiveness for my sins, and I turn towards you by your Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy, Muhammad [SAWW], Ya Muhammad, I turn towards Allah my Lord and your Lord to forgive me of my sins".

Source: Kamil Al-Ziyarat

Our salams are delivered to him as well, as confirmed by the reports. And our deeds are presented to him.

 

Edited by Sumerian

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On 8/9/2019 at 10:26 PM, realizm said:

Yes indeed.

Example above. Even though it is in the very sentence that they asked him the forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), people persist in believing that the bounty is coming from the intercessor I.e Prophet or Imam (sawas).

And on top of that, try to make you feel guilty of not understanding the right meaning of it.

Perfectly described

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Guest Pschological Warefare

 

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

Question to ask, in order to get to the basic/fundamental  conceptual clarification.

Is this still Valid?

To whom do they descend to?

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On 8/10/2019 at 1:00 AM, Sumerian said:

*Not getting involved in the istighatha argument just want to make a point*

 

No problem.

On 8/10/2019 at 1:00 AM, Sumerian said:

The fact is he can hear us near his grave as this hadith demonstrates:

Qur’an> Ahadith, so you read the Qur’an and judge Ahadith by holding them next to the Qur’an. The Qur’an speaks very negative of those who call upon other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so we must refrain from unclear things, since any Shi’a can twist lots of verses to fit tawassul, but we should believe in everything without shubha. 

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Qur’an> Ahadith, so you read the Qur’an and judge Ahadith by holding them next to the Qur’an. The Qur’an speaks very negative of those who call upon other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so we must refrain from unclear things, since any Shi’a can twist lots of verses to fit tawassul, but we should believe in everything without shubha. 

Talking to someone that can hear you is not a supplication (du'a). 

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6 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

So suppose I say Ya Ali, help me, is this just “talking” to him?

This is istighatha, what is commonly done. Not what I was talking about.

I was talking about the salams and passages in some ziyaraat/du'as where we are talking to the Imams (عليه السلام) - sometimes near their graves, because that's when they can hear us.

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On 8/9/2019 at 8:43 PM, Mortadakerim said:

Because then the Prophet was among them.

What do you say about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? Was He present near the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) only that the companions needed to go around Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

And what do you say about this claim of yours:

On 8/9/2019 at 6:37 PM, Mortadakerim said:

I meant that our Imams (عليه السلام) cannot grant us anything

وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

4:64

And why their own istaghfar was not sufficient for their forgiveness?

 

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On 8/10/2019 at 8:26 AM, realizm said:

Even though it is in the very sentence that they asked him the forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), people persist in believing that the bounty is coming from the intercessor I.e Prophet or Imam (sawas).

I also don't know why people persist in undermining the great station of Prophet & his Ahlul Bayt (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them).

In that very sentence, we see that there is no need for them to go to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we also see that their own istaghfar was not sufficient for their forgiveness, please read the following:

وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

4:64

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On 8/7/2019 at 7:17 PM, aaaz1618 said:

I don't know what problem you have with a straight man playing with a flowery necklace. There is nothing wrong with it at all, a heterosexual, straight, perfectly happy straight man married to a woman in a loving straight heterosexual marriage, playing with a necklace made out of flowers... 

Jokes aside, nothing wrong with flowers on the dead, unless you belong to some self righteous cult that believes in blowing up graves to piss off the oppressed locals

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9 hours ago, Cool said:

I also don't know why people persist in undermining the great station of Prophet & his Ahlul Bayt (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them).

Exaggerators tend to think others underestimate things, that's the whole point of the discussion, brother.

9 hours ago, Cool said:

In that very sentence, we see that there is no need for them to go to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we also see that their own istaghfar was not sufficient for their forgiveness, please read the following:

وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

4:64

Well, maybe because at that time there were people claiming to be believers follow Allah's command while at the same time denying the Prophet (sawas).

Hence their repentance not accepted unless they were sincere to the Prophet. 

Is it that hard to understand ?

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3 hours ago, realizm said:

Exaggerators tend to think others underestimate things, that's the whole point of the discussion, brother

:), well there are many who tends to think that others overestimate things. What you call these sort of people?

Anyway, anything beyond its true value or state is exaggeration. In case of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his Ahlul Bayt asws, they are the anwar e muqaddasah (holy lights) and that is the truth according to several ahadith.

3 hours ago, realizm said:

Well, maybe because at that time there were people claiming to be believers follow Allah's command while at the same time denying the Prophet (sawas).

Hence their repentance not accepted unless they were sincere to the Prophet. 

Is it that hard to understand ?

There are still such people exist who claim to be believers, follow Allah"s command and at the same time deny Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), what they should do? Or do you think Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has provided special way out for people of that time and now since the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is physically not present among us, so they don't have this opportunity? 

I think you have just said this without even reading any tafseer. Let me quote for you its tafseer:

Quote

Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:64]

It is the will of Allah that people should obey the Holy Prophet. If the sinners approach the Holy Prophet, he will speak on their behalf to Allah, because He has given him the authority to intercede on behalf of the repentant sinners; and on his (and his Ahl ul Bayt's) recommendation. Allah forgives the sinners, as has been clearly mentioned in this verse. Refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 48.

 

Edited by Cool

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

I think you have just said this without even reading any tafseer. Let me quote for you its tafseer:

Quote

Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:64]

It is the will of Allah that people should obey the Holy Prophet. If the sinners approach the Holy Prophet, he will speak on their behalf to Allah, because He has given him the authority to intercede on behalf of the repentant sinners; and on his (and his Ahl ul Bayt's) recommendation. Allah forgives the sinners, as has been clearly mentioned in this verse. Refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 48.

 

And I think that you just quoted a tafsir without even reading the surah.

The verse talks about hypocrites.

It says basically that had those men been truthful, they would have asked Allah's forgiveness, and that the Messenger (sawas) would also have asked for their forgiveness. 

Ironically, if I were to follow your logic,  the verse should give two conditions for an accepted repentance : 1/ istighfar from sinners and 2/ istighfar from Messenger. Yet, you are claiming that /2 is superior to /1 while the two are inseparable. For some reason that I could not explain, except by the ghulat card.

See where exaggeration leads us, we are now commenting totally unrelated verses just to justify some tawassul theories; ditching away all the numerous unequivocal verses saying litterally 'Call me, I will answer you'.

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33 minutes ago, Cool said:

:), well there are many who tends to think that others overestimate things. What you call these sort of people?

I don't know. But initially we are having all this talk because you said this about me :

12 hours ago, Cool said:

I also don't know why people persist in undermining the great station of Prophet & his Ahlul Bayt (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them)

How does affirming that the bounty is always from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and not the intercessor, undermine the great station of  Prophet Muhammad (sawas)  Ahl el Bayt ?

Can you understand that I am thinking you exaggerate things ?

And no worries @Noor Taleb, just chit chat here. Do not start exaggerating too. :accident::grin:

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54 minutes ago, realizm said:

The verse talks about hypocrites.

Majority of verses of chapter 4 talks about hypocrites. But the verse in discussion, has a clear and general message for everyone.

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 64:
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
(English - Shakir)

54 minutes ago, realizm said:

Ironically, if I were to follow your logic,  the verse should give two conditions for an accepted repentance : 1/ istighfar from sinners and 2/ istighfar from Messenger. Yet, you are claiming that /2 is superior to /1 while the two are inseparable. 

It says Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an authorized representative of Allah and He has made upon us obligatory his obedience and he also is nearer and dearer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), sitting on the station of "qaba qowsayne aww adna" and have been granted the authority to intercede on behalf of repenting sinner. This fact alone is sufficient to understand his great station. 

And not even me, every Muslim believe that 2 is greater than 1. Although for 2 cannot be achieved without 1.

Thinking that 1 alone is sufficient and 2 is useless or unnecessary is an exaggeration.

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42 minutes ago, realizm said:

How does affirming that the bounty is always from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and not the intercessor, undermine the great station of  Prophet Muhammad (sawas)  Ahl el Bayt ?

The words like "they are like us and that they cannot grant us anything" while knowing their station is itself an exaggeration.

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2 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

@Hameedeh close the thread plz

Mods do not usually close threads. After all, this is a discussion forum. It's not appropriate to start a topic and then ask in the thread to close it. If you are no longer interested in the thread, please stop replying here. Others can reply if they wish or if they see you are no longer replying then they might also leave your thread. 

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

Majority of verses of chapter 4 talks about hypocrites. But the verse in discussion, has a clear and general message for everyone.

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 64:
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
(English - Shakir)

It says Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an authorized representative of Allah and He has made upon us obligatory his obedience and he also is nearer and dearer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), sitting on the station of "qaba qowsayne aww adna" and have been granted the authority to intercede on behalf of repenting sinner. This fact alone is sufficient to understand his great station. 

And not even me, every Muslim believe that 2 is greater than 1. Although for 2 cannot be achieved without 1.

Thinking that 1 alone is sufficient and 2 is useless or unnecessary is an exaggeration.

Going round in circles here, and BTW I never said that /2 was useless or unnecessary. I don't know why you want to take it away from me. 

Can you please anwser this simple question :

Do you believe that when Prophet intercedes in our favor (إن شاء الله), the tawba will be granted from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or from the Prophet (sawas) ?

If your answer is from Allah then we agree from the beginning and all this is vain talk, otherwise we might enter another cycle of arguments, which I honestly am not keen on.

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14 hours ago, realizm said:

And I think that you just quoted a tafsir without even reading the surah.

The verse talks about hypocrites.

It says basically that had those men been truthful, they would have asked Allah's forgiveness, and that the Messenger (sawas) would also have asked for their forgiveness. 

Ironically, if I were to follow your logic,  the verse should give two conditions for an accepted repentance : 1/ istighfar from sinners and 2/ istighfar from Messenger. Yet, you are claiming that /2 is superior to /1 while the two are inseparable. For some reason that I could not explain, except by the ghulat card.

See where exaggeration leads us, we are now commenting totally unrelated verses just to justify some tawassul theories; ditching away all the numerous unequivocal verses saying litterally 'Call me, I will answer you'.

brother chill out

Edited by Noor Taleb

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14 hours ago, realizm said:

I don't know. But initially we are having all this talk because you said this about me :

How does affirming that the bounty is always from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and not the intercessor, undermine the great station of  Prophet Muhammad (sawas)  Ahl el Bayt ?

Can you understand that I am thinking you exaggerate things ?

And no worries @Noor Taleb, just chit chat here. Do not start exaggerating too. :accident::grin:

Many thanks brother 

good reference tho “don’t start exaggerating” loooool

Edited by Noor Taleb

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7 hours ago, realizm said:

Going round in circles here, and BTW I never said that /2 was useless or unnecessary. I don't know why you want to take it away from me. 

Don't take my every comment personally. I am talking generally and not targeting you, brother. You complaint it earlier too, and at that time I was also talking in a general sense. 

7 hours ago, realizm said:

Do you believe that when Prophet intercedes in our favor (إن شاء الله), the tawba will be granted from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or from the Prophet (sawas) ?

 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accepts towba or grants towba? He grants the toufeeq to do towba and He accepts it.

What do you think my answer would be? It is ofcourse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who accepts the towba

Surah Ghafir, Verse 3:
غَافِرِ الذَّنبِ وَقَابِلِ التَّوْبِ شَدِيدِ الْعِقَابِ ذِي الطَّوْلِ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ إِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ

The Forgiver of the faults and the Acceptor of repentance, Severe to punish, Lord of bounty; there is no God but He; to Him is the eventual coming.
(English - Shakir)

And this is not the point of OP, 

On 8/7/2019 at 6:55 PM, Noor Taleb said:

know personally make me disturbed they exaggerate the status of Imams so much to the point some say they weren’t humans they were Imams

Tell me who they are, brother? 

"Noor fil arhaamil shamikhah" or humans like us? 

 

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