Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

The Hijab and The 21st Century

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

A Question came to mind after a discussion in a thread about "Women having a desire to display" and a friend, @2Timeless states a subjective point about how men still "cat-call" women even when wearing a full-covered abaya that doesn't uncover or expose a woman's figure or body. The thread mentions that Hijab is exclusive to women so that, among other reasons,  don't expose their bodies for display and to prevent sin from both sides of gender, males and females. 

And when thinking about @2Timelesss statement, it occurred to me, that Hijab now, doesn't prevent men from spitting out sexual remarks about their body or having lustful stares and thoughts, not in this day and age, not even in the most holiest of cities. And I have experiences this firsthand, walking to Ziyara during Muharram and multiple men winking, throwing papers with their phone numbers towards me and even touching hands. 

Men, as well as women, have been too exposed by the Internet and in general, technology. What are your thoughts on this? Don't get me wrong, I love the Hijab, and I love modesty but, if Hijab is a veil to prevent sinful acts and sinning altogether, What other reasons is Hijab necessary in this century? 

@Islandsandmirrors, @3wliya_maryam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Scientific

I think we need to approach this discussion and appreciate it is a nuanced one. We also need to be very fair in examining what Islam actually claims. We all know that men have an innate desire to want to spread their genes and so a woman will typically be cat-called and chased no matter what they are wearing under certain circumstances. Islam never claims wearing proper Hijab (let us not forget social Hijab too) will stop this phenomenon entirely. Nobody also claims that a woman deserves to be assaulted or harassed, because no man should instigate that.

However, we simply can't ignore the science, which leaves very little room for opinion. Many Atheists actually fully acknowledge the science, but say that despite that, society should be open and free, with mixed-gatherings, casual sex, and hedonism at the discretion of whoever and whenever, so long as nobody is harmed by their definition.

So what does the science say?

Evidence that women have a desire to display due to their short window of fertility and need to display it

Evolutionary Psychologist, Professor Lance Workman: "In our evolutionary past we were all competing to pass our genes on to future generations, and it may alter our reproductive or mate choice, behavior. So for example, women tend to show a bit of flesh and one of the reasons for that is that they want to show they they are fertile. Now women have a limited period of fertility compared to men. Men can produce offspring right into old age and occasionally that happens. So women need to show that they are youthful which correlates with fertility, whereas its not so tied in with that with men; they tend to show things like status". [BBC Documentary, also cited by Daily Mail, Professor Lance Workman]

As part of a University of Leeds study: https://www.academia.edu/1145751/Nightclubs_as_human_sexual_display_grounds. The study concluded that 40% was an ideal percentage of flesh for a woman to show, but here is an interesting portion I would like to cite:

"With regard to the nature of these displays, human males commonly in-vest in child rearing and females show strong preferences for resource hold-ing males (Buss, 1989; Kenrick et al., 1990, 1996; Townsend & Levy, 1990;Etcoff, 1999). Hence, the expectation was that competition for the attentions of the opposite sex would be strongest amongst females and indeed data did demonstrate that mixed-sex dancing pairs were formed most frequently as the result of a male approaching a female, thereby placing females in com-petition with each other to attract these approaches. Factors found to stim-ulate approach behaviour in males included tightness of fit of the females’clothing, how much flesh their clothing revealed and the amount of breast area that was exposed. Dancing in a sexually suggestive manner was also an important factor. Females that wore combinations of clothing that revealed very little flesh or breast area attracted very few approaches by males and those that wore more revealing clothing and danced in a sexually suggestive dancing attracted the most. These data clearly show that males are sensitive to differences in the way that females dance and dress and strongly indicate that these displays are a means by which competition between females maybe effected."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

Fatimah (s.a.) was the highest example in chastity, honor and veiling for all Muslim women.

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘Once, a blind man asked permission to visit Fatimah (s.a.), but she asked him to stay behind a screen. The messenger of Allah (S) asked Fatimah (s.a.), ‘Why did you screen him though he is blind and could not see you?’

She said, ‘He could not see me, but I could see him.’

The Prophet (S) said, ‘I witness that you are a part from me.’

Once, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) asked Fatimah (s.a.), ‘When is woman closer to her Lord?’

She said, ‘When she keeps to her house…’

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) offered her answer to the Prophet (S) who said, ‘She is true. Fatimah is a part from me.’

Veil is beauty and honor for woman. Whenever woman adorns herself with chastity, she will be in a highest position and most honorable rank besides gaining admiration of them all. But if woman is unveiled and unchaste, she will be worthless in the society and no one will appreciate her. The veil and chastity of Fatimah (s.a.) is a high example that every woman who wants to live regardable and honorable in the society.

Thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Scientific
7 hours ago, Bakir said:

I really find thag the chapter dealing with the psychology of women could very well be removed, it serves no good nor useful purpose, but this is my opinion (and I believe I presented my point decently). Go show this text to any professor in psychology and he will laugh at you. 

Bakir, before making these remarks about the late Shaheed Mutahari (may Allah bless his soul), do scroll up and look at the evidence I have presented which contrary to your claim, demonstrate that he was in fact very close to what is the actual reality. In fact, women put themselves on display because they have an innate desire to demonstrate they are fertile, and in the majority of cases, compete with other females to have men approach them.  What Mutahari has said here is merely a poetic version of what many scientific studies have already confirmed. Women are the ones who display, who compete with other women, and who have a significantly stronger desire to display, in order to try to capture the attention of a suitable mate, to whom they will compete with other women for. This mating behaviour is seen irrespective of race or culture around the world, particularly in night-clubs.

The reason why the Islamic command to cover is exclusive to women is because the desire to show off and display one's self is a particular trait of women. She is the hunter in the domination of the hearts of men and man is the prey, whereas man is the hunter in the domination of the body of women and she is the prey. A woman's desire to display herself comes from this essence of the hunter. It is the female instinct which, because of its particular nature, wishes to capture hearts and imprison the male. Thus, the deviation begins with the female instinct and therefore the command to cover was issued.

Refer to my post:

I already had profound respect for Shaheed Mutahari, but what he wrote there demonstrated he was on another level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Anything in the world can be fetishized.

Well said. 

3 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

And when thinking about @2Timelesss statement, it occurred to me, that Hijab now, doesn't prevent men from spitting out sexual remarks about their body or having lustful stares and thoughts

Like the brother says below...

2 hours ago, Traveller14 said:

 

If hijab can’t save a woman from being harassed in a holy city, during ziarat etc, then what could possibly happen if a woman don’t maintain proper hijab in a non holy city, or a non Muslim country surrounded by millions of lustful guys? Just think about it.

 

People will still find ways to sin but the hijab surely and undoubtedly still prevents and reduces the amount of sin and corruption in society than if it were not there. To think otherwise or to not give it it’s due appreciation for doing this would just be silly. 

Regardless, as a brother expressed above, when was there only one reason for the hijab. Since when did the hijab only result in one beneficial outcome. 

Edited by AStruggler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

still prevents and reduces the amount of sin and corruption in society than if it were not there. To think otherwise or to not give it it’s due appreciation for doing this would just be silly

And its appreciation was given, so as the fact that it lessens sin is guaranteed and I have stated very clearly. Maybe go back and read again.

The question is, in what other ways does Hijab play a role in this Century?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

People will still find ways to sin but the hijab surely and undoubtedly still prevents and reduces the amount of sin and corruption in society than if it were not there. To think otherwise or to not give it it’s due appreciation for doing this would just be silly. 

Do you have any statistics that show that in areas where more women are hijabi the level of sin is less? Humans are curious and they always want what they can't have. That's common sense and also a psychological fact. If men are faced by women covered up from head to toe they will be intrigued and will want to know what's underneath. Let's not forget that the only type of sinning and corruption is not only that of zina and fornication. Maybe the *type* of sinning differs between a Muslim country and a non Muslim one, but the level of sinning is most likely the same. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
21 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

And its appreciation was given, so as the fact that it lessens sin is guaranteed and I have stated very clearly. Maybe go back and read again.

The question is, in what other ways does Hijab play a role in this Century?

Okay, I'm glad. I can't really take the time to find good and specific texts and information sources to refer you to right now or write something up myself but I do recommend you to visit Al-Islam.org and/or YouTube as you should find plenty of answers there. 

 

Edited by AStruggler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Guest Scientific said:

I think we need to approach this discussion and appreciate it is a nuanced one. We also need to be very fair in examining what Islam actually claims. We all know that men have an innate desire to want to spread their genes and so a woman will typically be cat-called and chased no matter what they are wearing under certain circumstances. Islam never claims wearing proper Hijab (let us not forget social Hijab too) will stop this phenomenon entirely. Nobody also claims that a woman deserves to be assaulted or harassed, because no man should instigate that.

However, we simply can't ignore the science, which leaves very little room for opinion. Many Atheists actually fully acknowledge the science, but say that despite that, society should be open and free, with mixed-gatherings, casual sex, and hedonism at the discretion of whoever and whenever, so long as nobody is harmed by their definition.

So what does the science say?

Evidence that women have a desire to display due to their short window of fertility and need to display it

Evolutionary Psychologist, Professor Lance Workman: "In our evolutionary past we were all competing to pass our genes on to future generations, and it may alter our reproductive or mate choice, behavior. So for example, women tend to show a bit of flesh and one of the reasons for that is that they want to show they they are fertile. Now women have a limited period of fertility compared to men. Men can produce offspring right into old age and occasionally that happens. So women need to show that they are youthful which correlates with fertility, whereas its not so tied in with that with men; they tend to show things like status". [BBC Documentary, also cited by Daily Mail, Professor Lance Workman]

As part of a University of Leeds study: https://www.academia.edu/1145751/Nightclubs_as_human_sexual_display_grounds. The study concluded that 40% was an ideal percentage of flesh for a woman to show, but here is an interesting portion I would like to cite:

"With regard to the nature of these displays, human males commonly in-vest in child rearing and females show strong preferences for resource hold-ing males (Buss, 1989; Kenrick et al., 1990, 1996; Townsend & Levy, 1990;Etcoff, 1999). Hence, the expectation was that competition for the attentions of the opposite sex would be strongest amongst females and indeed data did demonstrate that mixed-sex dancing pairs were formed most frequently as the result of a male approaching a female, thereby placing females in com-petition with each other to attract these approaches. Factors found to stim-ulate approach behaviour in males included tightness of fit of the females’clothing, how much flesh their clothing revealed and the amount of breast area that was exposed. Dancing in a sexually suggestive manner was also an important factor. Females that wore combinations of clothing that revealed very little flesh or breast area attracted very few approaches by males and those that wore more revealing clothing and danced in a sexually suggestive dancing attracted the most. These data clearly show that males are sensitive to differences in the way that females dance and dress and strongly indicate that these displays are a means by which competition between females maybe effected."

 

I’m a biologist myself and this evolutionary stuff is now telling things that Islam told us 1440 years back :keeporder:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
21 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

Do you have any statistics that show that in areas where more women are hijabi the level of sin is less? Humans are curious and they always want what they can't have. That's common sense and also a psychological fact. If men are faced by women covered up from head to toe they will be intrigued and will want to know what's underneath. Let's not forget that the only type of sinning and corruption is not only that of zina and fornication. Maybe the *type* of sinning differs between a Muslim country and a non Muslim one, but the level of sinning is most likely the same. 

Are you saying, let's say I, a male, am at a community center and there is a young woman near me, the physical modesty of the woman would not make any difference or impact my chances of sinning at all (I.e. fail to hold back from a look of desire)? As a male, I can tell you, you are greatly mistaken. If the woman in front me is wearing proper hijab then there is a significantly greater chance that I will not slip up my gaze and still maintain my spirituality and not oppress my soul than if the woman was not wearing hijab. It would be one less sin by me. It's small and individual acts that build up the acts of the society at large. It's drops of water that make up the ocean. I don't think there is any difference of opinion here and nor do I think any statistics are needed to prove this as this, is what's common sense :)

Edited by AStruggler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@AStruggler a decent man wouldnt look at a woman - hijab or no hijab- in a derogatory manner. Simple as. When I was questioning the validity of your earlier statement I wasn't talking about only the sin of letting your gaze slip. I was referring to how people would still sin even if the world was completely hijab-friendly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
2 hours ago, Guest Scientific said:

Bakir, before making these remarks about the late Shaheed MutaharI

I invite you to read my remarks again. Don't take my comments as an attack on Motahari. I do respect the man and his work in the field of theology and politics, and I have no reasons to disrespect him in any way. Now, my point, for the 99th time in ShiaChat:

1- the man makes no quotations. Regardless if his text is factually right or not, it is academically wrong. There is no discussion to that. He has no quotes. It is either his fault or his editor's or the one who compiled his lectures. I don't care. That text is academically wrong. Saying this is not an attack nor disrespecting him, just stating a clear fact that you should all point at, not as a sign of shame, but as something we should improve.

2- the works you share are indeed interesting, but there is a difference between historical or evolutionary mating techniques, or behaviours in night clubs, and speaking about women's nature. The problem is treating a social issue as a natural innate behaviour. What is innate is attraction and the desire to attract the opposite sex. What is social is the way we do it. Islam describes a way in which we do it. Islam doesn't go against our nature in that sense, but specifies a way. Thus, mating techniques won't be so basic as showing flesh, but will be based on other characteristics (for instance, piety). Would a woman in a country like Iran or Iraq show her body to attract men? Or would she try to excel in other aspects?

It is a social issue. Desire for the opposite sex and willing to be desired is a blessing, not an evil nature. Society configures the way in which these desires take shape in our heads. Showing flesh may be a basic way to achieve that, but in the end, it depends on social norms. And that is what makes a difference socially speaking.

Edited by Bakir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people have mentioned that men in the West constantly lustfully gaze at women. I don’t know what planet you all live in, but as someone who was born and raised in the West, I have never once seen a man lustfully look at women. Not once. No one here cares if you wear a low-cut tank top, short shorts, or what have you. People just go about their day and are focused on getting stuff done. They respect you all the same. 

In contrast, middle eastern men are incredibly immodest and are prone to negative behavior and comments in such a manner that I’ve never once seen in all my life living in my home country. (The US.) I’ve been stared at, my sister was inappropriately touched in public when she was young, and men display their numbers to random women on the street. This is absolutely a cultural and societal issue.  Men in the West have not been raised to view women as a piece of meat. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Basic Members
35 minutes ago, AStruggler said:

Are you saying, let's say I, a male, am at a community center and there is a young woman near me, the physical modesty of the woman would not make any difference or impact my chances of sinning at all (I.e. fail to hold back from a look of desire)? As a male, I can tell you, you are greatly mistaken. If the woman in front me is wearing proper hijab then there is a significantly greater chance that I will not slip up my gaze and still maintain my spirituality and not oppress my soul than if the woman was not wearing hijab. It would be one less sin by me. It's small and individual acts that build up the acts of the society at large. It's drops of water that make up the ocean. I don't think there is any difference of opinion here and nor do I think any statistics are needed to prove this as this, is what's common sense :)

EXACTLY. That is so true.

31 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

@AStrugglera decent man wouldnt look at a woman - hijab or no hijab- in a derogatory manner.

You are wrong. Only if you were a male, you would know. You need to be super religious to be able to control your eyes. Hence lustful look is the most poisonous arrow of shaitan. If shaitan gets the oppurtunity why he wont use his best weapon on a Muslim male?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
10 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

have never once seen a man lustfully look at women. Not once

How is this even possible? How can you tell what goes on inside someone's head? 

I've been to High School in the West and I believe you're mistaken, everything still happens. Guys are always checking women out and that's what they talk about majority of the time.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Guys are always checking women out and that's what they talk about majority of the time.

That means the issue lies with men and their weirdness when it comes to women, not women having some apparent desire to "display" themselves. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Basic Members
16 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

This is absolutely a cultural and societal issue.  Men in the West have not been raised to view women as a piece of meat. 

Is this the reason that west is the top preacher of nudity and porns?

Surely you are wrong about western males. They do have the most nasty brother-talks in between them and they do analyse every parts of a female body they have seen whole day, in street, office or anywhere.
Yes, they don't stare at girls like easterns. Easterns are ethically less educated hence the stare at girls like they are seeing an alien. Whereas western males ar cunning and they can see and analyse any female within seconds and without letting the woman know.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Scientific
17 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Some people have mentioned that men in the West constantly lustfully gaze at women. I don’t know what planet you all live in, but as someone who was born and raised in the West, I have never once seen a man lustfully look at women. Not once. No one here cares if you wear a low-cut tank top, short shorts, or what have you. People just go about their day and are focused on getting stuff done. They respect you all the same.

As a man, I have over my life time, probably seen over a hundreds, if not close to a thousand men gaze with lust , or gaze at very specific and on-display body parts of a woman. I've heard men talk lewdly about particular girls/teachers from primary school, to high-school and beyond. On YouTube, if a news anchor has a certain dress, you'll find men commenting on it exclusively in the comments, even if the news item is major and worth hearing about.

A lot of men care about the legs on a woman, the amount of flesh she shows, how much upper body they can see. They are pretty much hard-wired for that, and seeing it evokes powerful responses in them, many of which are subconscious and beyond their control.

That is why even the Muslim men who talk about not looking mention it is a struggle, and that they do it Fi Sabilillah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Scientific
7 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

That means the issue lies with men and their weirdness when it comes to women, not women having some apparent desire to "display" themselves. 

Men shouldn't sexually assault or sexually harass women because they may dress and show flesh, but thieves shouldn't rob houses even if the owners open the doors and leave their vulnerable children and wealth on full display. It isn't some 'apparent desire' , but widely accepted science.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
13 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

That means the issue lies with men and their weirdness when it comes to women, not women having some apparent desire to "display" themselves. 

Okay this is probably going to be my last comment. It's not a boxing match where we're trying to pick a winner. Islam is a balanced religion which considers both the nature of men and women.

Islam has given us duties which we must carry out. Our actions and the way we present ourselves affects those around us in society. Islam is a social religion where everything is tied together. Feminism is destructive in a sense how it aims to look at modesty in isolation. We can't say that women are free to dress in whatever way they want.

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Guest Scientific said:

isn't some 'apparent desire' , but widely accepted science.

Okay, please provide me with evidence if this "widely accepted" science. I'm very interested in these topics and I often read up studies and watch documentaries on them, I've never come across the notion that women have a desire to be seen. Maybe we all do, but I don’t think it's something specific to women. If it is, how would you explain men dressing up etc...if we look at animals, its always the male who has the most extravagant colours and feathers. The males are always the ones looking for a mate and try their utmost hardest to impress the females. Similarly, it's more common that men pursue women and attempt to "woo" them, not the opposite. So, we could actually say that men are the ones desiring attention and hence display themselves to woo the opposite gender. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
9 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

So, we could actually say that men are the ones desiring attention and hence display themselves to woo the opposite gender. 

 

ABCD5338-C282-4563-9EC7-494D588AD4D9.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
16 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

brother....please quote me where I said that?

It was a general point which I needed to get across.

17 minutes ago, 2Timeless said:

think this is a boxing match, take a break then

But bear in mind I'm a bit rusty, came back after a month break.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jannah digger

Some of you may find this funny but how come in all the gold digger experiments the female is called the “gold digger”. It’s because they want to see the man as having status, the looks are not the first priority. Also none of you have given hadiths and this post has turned into a mess mods please do clean up. (I mean absolutely no disrespect to women btw)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...