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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Hijab and The 21st Century

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  • Advanced Member
5 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

A Question came to mind after a discussion in a thread about "Women having a desire to display" and a friend, @2Timeless states a subjective point about how men still "cat-call" women even when wearing a full-covered abaya that doesn't uncover or expose a woman's figure or body. The thread mentions that Hijab is exclusive to women so that, among other reasons,  don't expose their bodies for display and to prevent sin from both sides of gender, males and females. 

And when thinking about @2Timelesss statement, it occurred to me, that Hijab now, doesn't prevent men from spitting out sexual remarks about their body or having lustful stares and thoughts, not in this day and age, not even in the most holiest of cities. And I have experiences this firsthand, walking to Ziyara during Muharram and multiple men winking, throwing papers with their phone numbers towards me and even touching hands. 

Men, as well as women, have been too exposed by the Internet and in general, technology. What are your thoughts on this? Don't get me wrong, I love the Hijab, and I love modesty but, if Hijab is a veil to prevent sinful acts and sinning altogether, What other reasons is Hijab necessary in this century? 

@Islandsandmirrors, @3wliya_maryam

Despite the world being as corrupt as it is, the hijab is the least thing that can protect us women especially in this era. We are not to blame for men who still intend to have lustful stares at us. They are the ones falling into sin. We are the ones trying to obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by covering ourselves, and although it makes us feel uncomfortable and disgusted, we should try and worry about those psychotic men who still pinpoint and give sexual remarks, because at the end of the day they are in the wrong and not us.

Now that this thread has been made, it reminded me of the days where I went to Hajj when I was younger. I was fully covered, hell even wearing a damn niqab in the heat, yet there were still some pesky men who would stare. MY FACE WAS COVERED. I mean maybe im exaggerating them, but they would generally stare. Not just men, even some women. Maybe it was because I was quite young, but the other time, when my face wasn't covered, some Arab dude who was driving us in those little cars towards Rasullulah's(sawas) tomb turned his head around three times to look at me. I didn't see, but my mum did, and she was furious, imagine my dad. After that I was told to wear the niqab. The thing is, I lowkey did enjoy wearing it for experience despite the weather, but then I couldn't wear it anymore because the in second stage of the pilgrimage, it is not permissible to cover one's face. 

The fact that I had to wear it because of some of the men's stares. I feel like my parents weren't just doing it for that reason, but they also wanted to protect me from evil eye aswell. 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I don’t know what planet you all live in, but as someone who was born and raised in the West, I have never once seen a man lustfully look at women. Not once. No one here cares if you wear a low-cut tank top, short shorts, or what have you. People just go about their day and are focused on getting stuff done. They respect you all the same. 

Actually, I have many friends living in the US and some of them have told me that a Lot of men there are actually very disgusting and rude, and do inappropriate acts in public aiming towards them.

It happens everywhere, Try coming to Australia, It happens everywhere in the West, as well as it does in the East

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Men should lower their gaze, this is such a shame. Now a days a lot of males are acting like animals. 

I remember there is a guy in my class who is a Christian but doesn’t practice it said that he love women who wear hijab because they are modest, cute and charming (according to him), because of that, that pervert start watching porn only if the porn actress is wearing hijab, he have a hijab fetish. :ranting:

2 hours ago, AStruggler said:

People will still find ways to sin but the hijab surely and undoubtedly still prevents and reduces the amount of sin and corruption in society than if it were not there. To think otherwise or to not give it it’s due appreciation for doing this would just be silly. 

Regardless, as a brother expressed above, when was there only one reason for the hijab. Since when did the hijab only result in one beneficial outcome. 

I agree half with what you say, but let me tell you this, My aunt once went to Umrah, imagine SHE WENT TO Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) HOUSE, and she got harassed. So whatever women wear, or where ever they are, they will always get harassed. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Some people have mentioned that men in the West constantly lustfully gaze at women. I don’t know what planet you all live in, but as someone who was born and raised in the West, I have never once seen a man lustfully look at women. Not once. No one here cares if you wear a low-cut tank top, short shorts, or what have you. People just go about their day and are focused on getting stuff done. They respect you all the same. 

In contrast, middle eastern men are incredibly immodest and are prone to negative behavior and comments in such a manner that I’ve never once seen in all my life living in my home country. (The US.) I’ve been stared at, my sister was inappropriately touched in public when she was young, and men display their numbers to random women on the street. This is absolutely a cultural and societal issue.  Men in the West have not been raised to view women as a piece of meat. 

I'm going to have to disagree with this point. The whole industry of porn an women has been derived from the West. It happens alot here especially in Australia. Women are identified as objects in the media. Western men stare alot too, but most of the times we don't notice. 

Atleast our religion has rules when it comes to men staring at women, although the majority don't abide by them nowadays. 

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The industry of porn appeared in the West, but porn consumption is a world-wide issue, not a western one.

I have heard of these statistics, haven't researched much into the topic, but it may be useful to share this here:

https://thenextweb.com/market-intelligence/2015/03/24/who-are-the-biggest-consumers-of-online-porn/amp/ (safe link, ghere are just graphs on porn consumtpion).

I feel honestly saddened this filth has spreaded so much in Iraq.

Edited by Bakir
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11 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

here especially in Australia. Women are identified as objects in the media.

Forget the media. The media always has sought out to exploit women and their vulnerabilities. Advertising has mostly been geared toward women. In the 1950s, the media portrayed women as needing to be perfectly groomed 24/7, or else her husband would stray. Kitchen items were geared toward women so they can buy their products. Nowadays, women in the media show less skin. It’s the same thing, different packaging. Exploiting women in the media is nothing new. 

I’m talking about women in real life. Men in the US don’t care what a woman wears. Unless you live in some ghetto town where people are racist and sexist and have a poor concept social boundaries due to their environment and the way they were raised, men don’t look. If they do, it’s more discreet.

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Some people have mentioned that men in the West constantly lustfully gaze at women. I don’t know what planet you all live in, but as someone who was born and raised in the West, I have never once seen a man lustfully look at women. Not once. No one here cares if you wear a low-cut tank top, short shorts, or what have you. People just go about their day and are focused on getting stuff done. They respect you all the same. 

In contrast, middle eastern men are incredibly immodest and are prone to negative behavior and comments in such a manner that I’ve never once seen in all my life living in my home country. (The US.) I’ve been stared at, my sister was inappropriately touched in public when she was young, and men display their numbers to random women on the street. This is absolutely a cultural and societal issue.  Men in the West have not been raised to view women as a piece of meat. 

My experiences as a man raised in America contradict what you're talking about. Do we live in the same country? Nearly all the men I know have had pre-marital sex with women, that's their respect for womankind. It's just normal in this culture. One culture has sex freely, the other doesn't. I turn on a TV here and see commercials with women wearing bikinis and skin hugging clothes, and you mean to tell me they're more respectful than easterners? 

Seriously, are you talking about America the COUNTRY, or America the Argentinian CITY.

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21 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Men in the US don’t care what a woman wears. Unless you live in some ghetto town where people are racist and sexist and have a poor concept social boundaries due to their environment and the way they were raised, men don’t look. If they do, it’s more discreet.

I agree, in general people don't stare much in Western countries. I know that in Pakistan, you'll get a lot of stares from randoms even if you're a man.

But it's not possible for you to assume that in the US, men don't look at women in a lustful way. It's naive for a woman to think this way. Western guys do have the social skills and won't make a woman feel awkward or uncomfortable, unlike guys in some other countries who have creepy tendencies. I do admit that a lot of the non Muslim guys I've come across in Australia know their limits and they aren't exactly like the guys you're describing. However, they do check women out in a lustful way! I don't agree with you here. A lot of them probably even talk about women! I'm saying this based on my experience in High School. As a woman, you won't understand what guys talk about in private. 

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
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13 minutes ago, Guest face said:

My experiences as a man raised in America contradict what you're talking about. Do we live in the same country? Nearly all the men I know have had pre-marital sex with women, that's their respect for womankind. It's just normal in this culture

Then you’d know that a man committing zina has nothing to do with what she wears. People all over the world commit zina nowadays. 

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Sometimes a whole book can be written on the subject or in this case pages and people vehemently believe their position on the subject.

I wanted to share this visual with you all, and if you don't believe what you see,why don't you experiment it on your own.

Put your sister or mother in this situation and then come back and tell us if you would rather see your female relatives covered or uncovered.

It starts at 3:00 mins

 

In this video Karim Jovian does an experiment with a female walking in New York without a head covering.  The second part is with a head covering and a black abaya (2:05)

 

 

 

This is the original video with over 48M views.  

 

Most importantly, your Creator knows what He created.  

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6 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Men in the US don’t care what a woman wears. Unless you live in some ghetto town where people are racist and sexist and have a poor concept social boundaries due to their environment and the way they were raised, men don’t look. If they do, it’s more discreet.

Wait.....what ? 

I think there are two ways to look at this. One is what the OP was responding to, namely that women have this 'instinct' to want to be looked at by men. While I think that is true, there is a deeper reality to this. We have to understand that our survival instincts, or called 'nafs al Ammarah' in Islamic Theology and hadith are with us for a good reason. They allow us to survive. 

Women, even if they don't explicitly say it, have a deep and profound desire to get married and have a family. Many men also have this. A women understands that in order for this to happen she has to attract a man at some point. She understands that alot of men are initially attracted to a women by her looks. So she has the desire to enhance her looks, beauty, appearance in order to get to her goal of finding the 'right' man to start a family with. There is a positive side to this. If a women didn't do this or care about this, I doubt there would be that many men who would be interested in getting married. If that happened, human beings would start to be in short supply, which would be bad for everyone. There is also a negative side to this, in that women can carry this to the extreme, attempting to fish with a 'big net' and draw as many men as possible to herself, so she can 'pick and choose' and stroke her ego meanwhile knowing that the vast majority of the men she is attracting have a zero percent chance of actually marrying her or being with her (in the physical sense). This is the part that is destructive to society, not the first part, the first part is actually constructive for society. 

If you go to Africa, Asia, US, Australia, Middle East or you talk to a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist women this thinking is basically the same. If you are in the 7th century or the 21st century this is also basically the same. So this is the survival instinct. It is deep seated in human nature. Human nature doesn't change. To blame women or to blame men for their basic instinctual or survival nature is useless and foolish. It is the way it is. 

What Islam does is that it puts this nature in a certain context and it places certain limits on it, for women and for men, so that this process of finding a spouse and starting a family can go forward in a safer way that has the least chance of harming women and men. If you doubt that these limits protect women, all you need to do is look at a place like the US, where there are very few limits on what women can wear or who they can associate with. I think many Muslim women who grow up in certain cultural communities don't realize how fortunate they are that they were raised in an environment where modesty was a virtue and was taught from older generations to the younger ones. If these women were suddenly in a situation where they had to interact with women in the US who were not raised in this type of environment and were not taught the virtue of modesty, they would quickly realize how lucky they are. I don't need to go over this in detail, but briefly more than 1/3 of women in the US are raped or sexually assaulted before they reach 30. This 1/3 is a deceiving statistic. It doesn't mean that every women has a 1 out of three chance of being raped or sexually assaulted. A women who is modest and doesn't put herself in risky situations with men she doesn't know and doesn't use drugs or alcohol has an almost zero chance of getting assaulted (although it does happen to these women but it is very, very rare) whereas a women who does one or more of these things has a greater than 30 chance of this happening to her. So in the US there are many women in the modest group (but this group is shrinking unfortunately) and many women in the other group but this statistic is averaged out over both groups. 

Now, for the first time, more than 50 are not married when they have their first child. The majority of men in the US are not married to the mothers of their children and see their children only through court appointed visitation. Many do not see their children weekly or monthly even. So if anyone here wants to hold the US or European countries up as an example of 'Freedom' then they must consider that the preceding statement go hand in hand with that 'freedom'.  I doubt that any practicing Muslim or muslima would want that kind of 'freedom' 

So whether it is the 7th century or the 21st century, hijab, both social and physical hijab serves the same purpose. It is there to protect us from the darker more destructive side of our survival instincts or 'nafs al ammarah' and this is equally as relevant to women as it is to men. 

 

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@Islandsandmirrors as a guy whose grown up in a Western country, I can assure you that guys of all colours and race lust after women. The difference is the guys from the Middle East appear more interested in a very obvious way, because they weren't seeing these things so explicitly as back home. 

Edited by Sumerian
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13 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

The thread mentions that Hijab is exclusive to women so that, among other reasons,  don't expose their bodies for display and to prevent sin from both sides of gender, males and females. 

A lot of people forget Men are prescribed hijab too. 

https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/Islamic-hijab-men-shaykh-saleem-bhimji

 

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44 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I think there are two ways to look at this. One is what the OP was responding to, namely that women have this 'instinct' to want to be looked at by men. While I think that is true, there is a deeper reality to this. 

I don’t think I have an instinct to be looked at by men. This sort of generalization is incredibly damaging and paints women to be a seductive temptress, which we are definitely not. You, as a fellow American, of all people, should understand this. I never wanted attention from men: many women find male attention, wether positive or negative, to be uncomfortable, not flattering. 

Women don’t want to attract men by wanting to look good, but rather, it makes us personally feel better when we look put together, put some light makeup on and get our hair done, wear decent, ironed, classy clothing. Men mistakenly interpret women wanting to look good as wanting to attract them, when it’s really for ourselves. Later, once women are married, we style our hair and buy clothing considering their husband’s preferences but also based on what would make us feel refreshed and put together. 

Women nowadays wear revealing clothing that also attract men not for the intention of attracting them, but to follow latest fashion trends as to not be gossiped by other women for being different. 

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24 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Women don’t want to attract men by wanting to look good, but rather, it makes us personally feel better when we look put together, put some light makeup on and get our hair done, wear decent, ironed, classy clothing. Men mistakenly interpret women wanting to look good as wanting to attract them, when it’s really for ourselves.

No I think it can also be subconscious and biologically hardwired in us. Female beautification is thousands of years old and various depictions of female beauty standards exist over the ages.

It has been argued men find wide hips attractive, not in of itself but due to child bearing and as a sign of fertility in attracting a mate. Does the average fella contemplate a female's birthing capabilities when admiring her bodily features? Probably not.

I know this comes off like an Attenborough documentary, but evolution and biology plays a part.

It happens in the Animal kingdom too with few exceptions (it is reversed for the Peacock).

The wiminz peacocks loves a guy who knows how to dress and has flare.

hA4A8DA81

Anyway my point is, one may not have the intention to attract opposite genders, they may not even be aware, but it is essential for the procreation of later generations.

 

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed
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27 minutes ago, Bakir said:

This is what is spiritually problematic, indeed. As for literally lowering the gaze, it's a matter of basic simple respect. Only uneducated people stare at others. It's very insulting and even threatening. One thing is a look, maybe two, but staring at other people in a sexual way is a whole different level. Such people have something more serious than a spiritual problem, they probably suffer from a psychological/social one.

It all start from the heart, the more sick heart become the more it can lead to very destruction.

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5 hours ago, Bakir said:

This is what is spiritually problematic, indeed. As for literally lowering the gaze, it's a matter of basic simple respect. Only uneducated people stare at others. It's very insulting and even threatening. One thing is a look, maybe two, but staring at other people in a sexual way is a whole different level. Such people have something more serious than a spiritual problem, they probably suffer from a psychological/social one.

LOL don’t come to Australia then. men here, no matter where theyre from, don’t care if they stare or not, be it discreet or not.

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6 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I don’t think I have an instinct to be looked at by men. This sort of generalization is incredibly damaging and paints women to be a seductive temptress, which we are definitely not. You, as a fellow American, of all people, should understand this. I never wanted attention from men: many women find male attention, wether positive or negative, to be uncomfortable, not flattering. 

Women don’t want to attract men by wanting to look good, but rather, it makes us personally feel better when we look put together, put some light makeup on and get our hair done, wear decent, ironed, classy clothing. Men mistakenly interpret women wanting to look good as wanting to attract them, when it’s really for ourselves. Later, once women are married, we style our hair and buy clothing considering their husband’s preferences but also based on what would make us feel refreshed and put together. 

Women nowadays wear revealing clothing that also attract men not for the intention of attracting them, but to follow latest fashion trends as to not be gossiped by other women for being different. 

You may not feel to have the instinct to be looked by men, but biological and scientific evolution has proven so, it is or can be a subconscious process of thought. I understand you, though, because as you said, you could feel uncomfortable when men look at you, and I, feel that way too. We do dress to impress, be it ourselves or someone else. Psychological fact of the matter is that us women dress to look nice and classy, as you have said, to feel refreshed, this will lead on to confidence. When we feel confident in ourselves, it helps us to not worry about ourselves looking bad or untidy, or that people will think of us that we have bad style. Confidence motivates us to go on to our next goal in the day. It checks of the entire list. 

It may be that we don't feel the instinct, but its there regardless. It isn't such a bad thing, because after all, we are humans. Now, in respect to the above point, I will now say that men also have this innate desire to dress to impress, they shave and they put deodorant to smell nice, wear the latest cool sneakers and tag on the best phone covers, maybe have a Rolex on their wrist, with the same reasoning- To impress women and gain their attraction. 

It goes both ways. This is science, too. Theres not just women this and women that, its common sense, men and women have natural instinct to attract one another. They are opposite polars and magnetic to each other.

@2Timeless, @3wliya_maryam @Bakir @ali_fatheroforphans

 

 

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9 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I don’t think I have an instinct to be looked at by men. This sort of generalization is incredibly damaging and paints women to be a seductive temptress, which we are definitely not. You, as a fellow American, of all people, should understand this. I never wanted attention from men: many women find male attention, wether positive or negative, to be uncomfortable, not flattering. 

Women don’t want to attract men by wanting to look good, but rather, it makes us personally feel better when we look put together, put some light makeup on and get our hair done, wear decent, ironed, classy clothing. Men mistakenly interpret women wanting to look good as wanting to attract them, when it’s really for ourselves. Later, once women are married, we style our hair and buy clothing considering their husband’s preferences but also based on what would make us feel refreshed and put together. 

Women nowadays wear revealing clothing that also attract men not for the intention of attracting them, but to follow latest fashion trends as to not be gossiped by other women for being different. 

I never used the word 'seductive temptress', that is your interpretation of what I said. I said women have the instinct for survival. Part of survival is attracting a mate. You can see that in every human society as well as every animal species. Women have been given physical beauty to a degree that men have not, that is speaking from the perspective of a man, of course.

If it makes you personally feel better to do these things, go ahead and do that, but observe the limits which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has placed. These are not my limits, and if you cross them it is not me who you are disobeying. My being American has nothing to do with this. The limits are the same for everyone. 

I sometimes bring up the fact that I am American, and grew up in a Non Muslim environment to illustrate certain points to those who grew up in cultural communities and, although they may physically live in the US, they have no interactions, besides very short and trivial ones, with Americans who are not part of their cultural community. They may have a friend who they see sometimes, or something like that, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that is much different than growing up in a typical American, non Muslim household. There are things which they take for granted and don't feel are important, such as having an intact family, having a father or mother who places limits on their behavior and enforces those limits, without doing thulm. Having siblings or family members who attempt to teach them and guide them in the religion, and sometimes might not do it in the most respectful and diplomatic way, but try to do it regardless. 

I am not saying this applies to you directly, I have no idea what your situation is, actually. I am assuming you are a better Muslim than I am. Sometimes I quote people and respond and they think that I am talking about their personal lives when I have no idea what their personal life is like. I assume that they know that. Sometimes people think that I know things that I don't actually know. 

I am speaking in general here that , you have heard of the saying, 'The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence'. I have, unlike many here, seen both sides of the fence in detail. That is knowledge that I have. There are also many other bits of knowledge I don't have and I would never hold my own personal conduct up as an example for anyone because I am full of flaws, like everyone else reading this. 

Another point I wanted to make is just because something makes you feel good, it doesn't mean that it is good for you, in the ultimate sense. There are many things which feel good in the moment, but in the end they are destructive. You have to examine that thing and examine why it makes you feel good, and if I continue to do this, what will be the ultimate outcome. Feelings are useful, in certain situations, but feelings are not the ultimate decision maker, as to what you should do or what you should not do. That is the role of the 'aql'. So if your aql, tells you something is good to do, and your feelings back that up, then that is a good thing to do, no question. If your 'aql' and your 'feeling' are contradicting each other, like is often the case for women with that issue, then you should look into that further and try to figure out why they are in conflict. Once you resolve the conflict and then act with knowledge, based on your aql, this is what is good for you in the ultimate sense, and not just in the short term. 

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On 7/26/2019 at 12:44 PM, Ruqaya101 said:

What other reasons is Hijab necessary in this century? 

Hijab (the female one) has ultimately been made wajib upon women by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the holy Qur'an and it's wajib whether men look at the women or not, whether she lives now, 100 years ago or in 100 years. That is ultimately why it is necessary for Muslim women:

 

 

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15 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

A lot of people forget Men are prescribed hijab too. 

https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/Islamic-hijab-men-shaykh-saleem-bhimji

 

im going to be a better memer than you. wait n watch :dwarf:

JKK :hahaha:

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13 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

@Abu Hadi: okay, then let me ask you something. As a man, when you shape your beard, wear good clothes, and take care of yourself, does that make you feel better? Or does dressing in a wrinkled shirt and with an unkempt beard make you feel good? A woman taking care of herself is the same concept. We all want to look and feel our best. 

YAS! YA GO GURL!! :muslima:

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49 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

@Abu Hadi: okay, then let me ask you something. As a man, when you shape your beard, wear good clothes, and take care of yourself, does that make you feel better? Or does dressing in a wrinkled shirt and with an unkempt beard make you feel good? A woman taking care of herself is the same concept. We all want to look and feel our best. 

I think the argument being made here is that women and men play different roles in terms of mating behavior. Women tend to show more flesh because they are fertile for a narrower window and it indicates their fertility. Evidence for this has been provided on multiple current threads including this one. While both sexes groom and look good, the emphasis on showing flesh and wanting to attract the attention of a male is far more for a woman. The study from Leeds presenting on this thread even demonstrated that women will expose and compete with other women for the attention of a male, who almost always is the one to approach.

Now, Allah has given us intellect and a fitrah, so we are more complicated than this, but there is no denying basic biology.

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53 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

@Abu Hadi: okay, then let me ask you something. As a man, when you shape your beard, wear good clothes, and take care of yourself, does that make you feel better? Or does dressing in a wrinkled shirt and with an unkempt beard make you feel good? A woman taking care of herself is the same concept. We all want to look and feel our best. 

Women typically in the West will try to expose some flesh. This has been demonstrated in studies to occur more when they are ovulating, and mating behavior can be seen when they go to parties or clubbing, where they show significantly more flesh than their male counterparts. A woman might feel good and not consciously realize what she is doing, but her behavior really is hard-wired instinct to want to demonstrate her fertility, and it has a powerful effect on men and how they interact with her. Men and women are biologically different.

Allah in his wisdom has asked women to cover.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Women nowadays wear revealing clothing that also attract men not for the intention of attracting them, but to follow latest fashion trends as to not be gossiped by other women for being different. 

The scientific evidence and the general consensus is that women wear revealing clothing to display their fertility. It might make them feel good to look a certain way, but this is merely acting on instinct whether they realize they are displaying their fertility based on this instinct.

Women competing with other women is also very natural. That's why women don't just try to look good for men, but also because of women too. You'll often find women sizing each other up, and that is based on their instinctive urge to examine other women who are their competition.

We need to ask ourselves why women wear make up, enhancing their cheeks with blusher, lips, in very much the same way once again, to indicate arousal and fertility? They might not consciously think they are doing this, but that is what is happening. Make up and dress are sexual signalling.

Now, nobody wants to appear poorly groomed, and there is far more to this, but we have to accept the science.

 

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58 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

woman taking care of herself is the same concept. We all want to look and feel our best. 

It's not. There is a difference between personal grooming, looking neat and beautification. 

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16 minutes ago, starlight said:

It's not. There is a difference between personal grooming, looking neat and beautification

Ok, but what’s wrong with looking and feeling beautiful and graceful? What’s wrong being stylish? 

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8 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Ok, but what’s wrong with looking and feeling beautiful and graceful? What’s wrong being stylish? 

That is probably another question. What we need to agree on are the facts here, which clearly support that women have a greater tendency to want to expose their flesh, particularly when they are ovulating, and it demonstrates their fertility. They have a narrower window to get pregnant, and so regularly if society permits will use make-up as sexual signalling or their clothes. To them, they may not actually think this is mating behavior, but they feel good because they are hard-wired to feel good in behaviors designed to expose their fertility, attract a mate, and pass their genes on.

Men are concomitantly designed to respond to the stimulus, and many , including old men will stare or have a prolonged glance (these old men who are also capable of having children late into old age, whereas women have that narrow window).

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