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In the Name of God بسم الله

Women have the desire to display?

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  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Salam,


‘The Islamic Modest Dress’ by Shaheed Mutahari (رضي الله عنه) is a great book I recommend everyone to read. 

I found this paragraph interesting and it makes sense when I notice how the West is misusing this particular trait of women. The West is promising money, fame, views etc. to women in exchange for their body which must be shown to the whole world.

The reason why the Islamic command to cover is exclusive to women is because the desire to show off and display one's self is a particular trait of women. She is the hunter in the domination of the hearts of men and man is the prey, whereas man is the hunter in the domination of the body of women and she is the prey. A woman's desire to display herself comes from this essence of the hunter. It is the female instinct which, because of its particular nature, wishes to capture hearts and imprison the male. Thus, the deviation begins with the female instinct and therefore the command to cover was issued.

It's interesting how women are the ones who naturally feel the need to show more skin when no rules and restrictions are imposed on them. One would simply have to look at the film industry to observe that it’s always the women who give whereas  men are at the receiving end. It's actually a very sad thing, and now you have feminists polluting the minds of young women! by telling them to dress in whatever way they want. Islam doesn't work this way, we can't separate men and women. We need to understand each other to create a modest society.

What are your thoughts and opinions?
 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
  • Veteran Member
Posted
36 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

The reason why the Islamic command to cover is exclusive to women is because the desire to show off and display one's self is a particular trait of women. She is the hunter in the domination of the hearts of men and man is the prey, whereas man is the hunter in the domination of the body of women and she is the prey. A woman's desire to display herself comes from this essence of the hunter. It is the female instinct which, because of its particular nature, wishes to capture hearts and imprison the male. Thus, the deviation begins with the female instinct and therefore the command to cover was issued.

What is this? What are the sources the author uses to prove this point? Is he some sort of expert in psychology?

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

By the way, I'm asking these questions because Motahari is pointing at the female instinct, not at the wrong social education. Thus, he's saying the problem is with women, not with their education or social context.

Edited by Bakir
  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

say psychology does prove it to be true

The problem relies precisely in that. If what he says is not supported by psychology, what are his credentials as a man to speak about women's instinct, precisely in a negative approach?

Lacking any type of reliable sources when speaking about such a delicate topic with so many consequences at a social level is enough reason not to read this book. He's rather demonizing women and contributing to these prejudices imposed on their gender with such statements.

Thank you for sharing, by the way. I think it is positive to take a look at paragraphs like this, to think and reconsiderate how certain beliefs and prejudices are imposed by religious authorities. And why visibility is necessary.

Edited by Bakir
Guest Examinee
Posted

I think people really need to read more of this book before jumping to such strong conclusions and spewing nonsense. This author is a highly reputed man of reason and an esteemed intellectual that many look up to in academia.

My apologies but some of the comments I read in this thread were just ridiculous. Some of the stuff mentioned here reflected quite a bit of irony too. 

This was just a small paragraph from a discussion which took up the space of an entire book! I advise people to go read the book properly (not necessarily the entire book) instead of turning it down so aggressively and reaching pitiful conclusions about the author based on a mere paragraph. The author could have been speaking in a specific artistic literary/figurative style and based on some robust philosophical reasoning. 

Guest Examinee
Posted

Also, looking at the table of contents of this book...it’s possible this may just be a nice compilation of notes from his lectures by his students...So it’s possible this isn’t even his actual writing or a traditional serious argumentative book. 

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Guest Examinee said:

The author could have been speaking in a specific artistic literary/figurative style and based on some robust philosophical reasoning. 

Why would anyone give sexism the benefit of the doubt? Especially when there are no robust psychological evidence for such statements. The matter he discusses is neither philosophical nor theological, he is talking about a natural behaviour and thought-pattern in women.

If it's not his own writing, it's been compiled by some sort of unexperienced editor if there are no grounds nor evidence to support any of the clearly sexist statements made there.

In any case, that paragraph at least, is not worth reading. And allow me to have reasonable doubts about the rest of the book.

* As a side note, I know the man is renowned in his field, theology. I have no problem with that, but with the exposition he made of the topic at hand. Indeed, the issue is not personal itself. He could have been informed wrongly if he had any advisors in the field of psychology. I'm not calling him sexist, but that the paragraph present in his book is sexist. I gave the book a quick lookand most of his references are either theological, ibid, or historical in a few times (mostly short quotes from renowned historians). I really find thag the chapter dealing with the psychology of women could very well be removed, it serves no good nor useful purpose, but this is my opinion (and I believe I presented my point decently). Go show this text to any professor in psychology and he will laugh at you.

Edited by Bakir
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Lol this is like blaming women for men sinning. 

In this book he has a whole section dedicated to how men should lower their gaze. Islam doesn't look at modesty in isolation. Our actions and the way we present ourselves affects those around us in society. Even in a mosque if there is one person who is dressed inappropriately, it would affect the overall environment. I also advice you to read this book, because the author is not blaming women for men sinning. There is a whole section on how the hijab brings dignity to a woman. 

2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Women dress without hijab and with their arms un-covered not because we want to tempt men or because of “feminism” but because it gets really hot and humid, 

Okay fair enough, but there are also those innocent women who are being used by society, and it's like they feel the need to show off their bodies to every man in town. I'm not making a claim that it's an instinctive thing, but the current mess in society can lead one to think about the possibility. Why do you think the whole film industry exploits women? Why do women even accept themselves to be shown that way? I'm talking about the extreme and that is relevant to the discussion.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bakir said:

what are his credentials as a man to speak about women's instinct, precisely in a negative approach?

 

2 hours ago, Bakir said:

He's rather demonizing women and contributing to these prejudices imposed on their gender with such statements.

How is he demonizing women? Don't you think men are also demonized for having this instinctive nature to look at women in a certain way? I always hear people say that the problem starts because men can't control themselves. It's not about men being at fault, vice versa. We need to take a holistic approach when it comes to modesty.

The author simply stated this potential reality, and we're free to question and explore different theories in psychology. He talked a lot about strengthening family bonds and limiting any potential sexual activity to only a family environment. Therefore even if women have this potential trait, there's nothing wrong if it is limited to a family environment. The problem is when women display their beauty to those who are non mahram to them.

Allama Mutahari is very well educated scholar and often quotes the opinions of different psychologists, sociologists etc. You can't judge that one statement and disregard his whole book.

Also I agree with the guest user, the author is known to talk in a very figurative way to make it easier for the audience to understand.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
Posted
50 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Go show this text to any professor in psychology and he will laugh at you.

Why do have a knee jerk reaction with such subjects? 

Show me a statement from a professor of psychology and I will show you another one refuting him. 

Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Salam,


‘The Islamic Modest Dress’ by Shaheed Mutahari (رضي الله عنه) is a great book I recommend everyone to read. 

I found this paragraph interesting and it makes sense when I notice how the West is misusing this particular trait of women. The West is promising money, fame, views etc. to women in exchange for their body which must be shown to the whole world.

The reason why the Islamic command to cover is exclusive to women is because the desire to show off and display one's self is a particular trait of women. She is the hunter in the domination of the hearts of men and man is the prey, whereas man is the hunter in the domination of the body of women and she is the prey. A woman's desire to display herself comes from this essence of the hunter. It is the female instinct which, because of its particular nature, wishes to capture hearts and imprison the male. Thus, the deviation begins with the female instinct and therefore the command to cover was issued.

It's interesting how women are the ones who naturally feel the need to show more skin when no rules and restrictions are imposed on them. One would simply have to look at the film industry to observe that it’s always the women who give whereas  men are at the receiving end. It's actually a very sad thing, and now you have feminists polluting the minds of young women! by telling them to dress in whatever way they want. Islam doesn't work this way, we can't separate men and women. We need to understand each other to create a modest society.

What are your thoughts and opinions?
 

Sellam Ali, How are you, brother?

I agree with the fact that the west is misusing women with their bodies in exchange for money, fame, etc.  However, I hope that without providing a subjective view of the entire book since I have not read it, in terms of the paragraph/ statement in bold, I believe that I could say it goes both ways, that this particular trait doesnt make hijab exclusive to women and isn't a main focus or reason because psychologically proven and evidently displayed in western/contemporary societies, men and women *both*  have a particular trait to show their body, especially in industries of sorts such as media and television, music and modelling. Men also show off their  waxed bodies, their six packs, their muscles, their fixed jaws. They also have a desire to display to women and by the way, this is natural instinct for men to feel worthy that a women would want them, of course you can find many sources that prove so.

So, it isn't exclusive to women, It is for men as much as it is for women.

@Bakir, @Islandsandmirrors, @2Timeless, @3wliya_maryam

Edited by Ruqaya101
  • Advanced Member
Posted
1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Don't you think men are also demonized for having this instinctive nature to look at women in a certain way?

I think its only appropriate to demonize men who have disgusting thoughts about women - of all shapes and sizes, dressed in all sorts of clothes. What kind of man starts cat calling a woman in a traditional Iraqi abayah that gives absolutely nothing about her figure? Men have the ability to control their thoughts and their gazes, but alot of them love blaming their "insticts" for not doing so. 

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ruqaya101 said:

Sellam Ali, How are you, brother?

Wasalam sister! Long time :) I'm good alhumdulillah hope you're well.

1 hour ago, Ruqaya101 said:

have a particular trait to show their body, especially in industries of sorts such as media and television, music and modelling. Men also show off their  waxed bodies, their six packs, their muscles, their fixed jaws. They also have a desire to display to women and by the way, this is natural instinct for men to feel worthy that a women would want them, of course you can find many sources that prove so.

I agree with you! It could definitely go both ways. In general, I guess everyone has that desire to display their beauty to the opposite gender. However, most men know that them showing their body won't result in women looking at them in a lustful way to that extent (not that I'm justifying men who choose to show their bodies). I guess the author exclusively related it to women for this reason, not that men have no desire at all. This is also the reason why he mentioned hijab, It's more than a simple "look".

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
  • Advanced Member
Posted
1 minute ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

However, most men know that them showing their body won't result in women looking at them in a lustful way to that extent

Maybe you're not very up to date with the current media. Both men and women are being sexualised to such an extent that both treat eachother like they're a peice of meat. With the modern wave of feminism, women take pride in objectifying and almost to a certain extent, dehumanizing men (who have the stereotypically desirable body type).

Posted
4 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Long time :) I'm good alhumdulillah hope you're well.

im glad, brother. 

4 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I agree with you!

good, then its sorted.

 

4 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

most men know that them showing their body won't result in women looking at them in a lustful way to that extent

No, its the fact, that they do know that women would look at them in a lustful way and to a very big extent. 

Posted
2 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Salam sister,

Firstly we're not talking about perverts who disrespect women in the abayah. I don't see how that is even relevant to the points Allama Mutahari made throughout his book. Why did you feel the need to bring that point up? These are simply emotional statements and don't lead to anything, except more division. 

That isn't the point she is trying to make, brother. This point is quite relevant to the topic at hand, which talks about modesty, demonisation, and psychology of men and women, their desires, and the west. If you look from outside the box, you will clearly see that its relevance is quite important to your topic. For example, when you mentioned the West and how they misuse women, @2Timeless points that the West's ideologies and ideas, concepts and sexuality system has also been distributed even to the most modest of countries, or most holy cities or states such as Iraq, where men have been exposed to the media of the West, to lust and to sexual acts and also can see women a certain way, that not even hijab (which does lessen it) can completely prevent the pleasures of men at bay. 

And to add to @2Timelesss point, There are also women who do misuse their body to gain attraction by men. She is pointing out, that it goes both ways and that Hijab isn't the only reason worn because of a body misused, its not exclusive to women for that reason, it could be one of the reasons but isn't quite a big one.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
6 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

The reason why the Islamic command to cover is exclusive to women is because the desire to show off and display one's self is a particular trait of women. She is the hunter in the domination of the hearts of men and man is the prey, whereas man is the hunter in the domination of the body of women and she is the prey.

^ I understand the above part ^

 

But I don't understand the part below:

6 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

A woman's desire to display herself comes from this essence of the hunter. It is the female instinct which, because of its particular nature, wishes to capture hearts and imprison the male. Thus, the deviation begins with the female instinct and therefore the command to cover was issued.

Do women actually have a desire to display themselves? No... It's not a desire for them it's just normal life... 

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Its important to respect the basira of learnt scholars when it comes to human nature. Especially such respected scholars as shahid Mutahhari(رضي الله عنه).

They have studied the words and laws of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in dept, those words and laws are made with human nature in mind, constructed for the nature of humans, thus by really studying them one can derive a lot of understanding for the nature of humans.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
4 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

points that the West's ideologies and ideas, concepts and sexuality system has also been distributed even to the most modest of countries, or most holy cities or states such as Iraq, where men have been exposed to the media of the West, to lust and to sexual acts and also can see women a certain way, that not even hijab (which does lessen it) can completely prevent the pleasures of men at bay. 

 

4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

think its only appropriate to demonize men who have disgusting thoughts about women

 

4 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

but alot of them love blaming their "insticts" for not doing so. 

I think these are pretty big generalizations to make. Also, catcalling at women, public groping, making sexual remarks, raping etc. Has got very little to do with men wanting to pleasure themselves. This is just plain anti-social and rude behaviour. Majority of these people could come from troubled families, where their parents haven't given them proper training. My point is that there's so many things you need to consider before linking "men catcalling" in Iraq to simple lustful tendencies which can develop in any man, be he a monk, scholar, sheikh, mullah or even an ayatollah.

4 hours ago, Ruqaya101 said:

Hijab isn't the only reason worn because of a body misused, its not exclusive to women for that reason, it could be one of the reasons but isn't quite a big one.

Yes, that's why Shaheed Mutahari gave a list of reasons apart from this one. I stated that in one of my posts

Posted
4 hours ago, Guest Examinee said:

I think people really need to read more of this book before jumping to such strong conclusions and spewing nonsense

In all fairness, people will judge something based on what is presented to them. Since there is no mention of anything else afterwards to suggest what the author says is whatever you suggest in other posts, then people will assume that is all the author has to say on the matter. I don't think anybody is spewing nonsense at all.

Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

Do women actually have a desire to display themselves?

Tell me

How many men fall for a woman's looks ?

And

how much do looks count when it comes to attracting a man?

And now answer this,

How many of the women are aware of the above? 

Edited by starlight
Posted
3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

only appropriate to demonize men who have disgusting thoughts about women

 

5 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Don't you think men are also demonized for having this instinctive nature to look at women in a certain way?

Brother, choice of words is very important. She answered your question in terms of what you think that men are demonised for. She isn't being subjective to saying that its All men, she is stating that its appropriate to demonise men who have disgusting thoughts about women. This isn't a generalisation, because key word is "appropriate", in which case, it is. You would agree.  As iI said, her points does correlate to your topic if you think about it well.

However, in saying this, I do agree with you when you state:

3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Majority of these people could come from troubled families, where their parents haven't given them proper training.

because I firsthand have seen this due to these specific reasons, It is no excuse for the actions they do and the consequences that arise from it, But you are right.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
3 hours ago, starlight said:

Tell me

How many men fall for a woman's looks ?

And

how much do looks count when it comes to attracting a man?

And now answer this,

How many of the women are aware of the above? 

1) A lot

2) Depends on the Man

3) All of them

But a lot of women wear certain types of clothes not for attracting men but for

1) Fashion

2) The weather

3) For themselves. Actually a lot women will make an explicit statement that they're not dressing up for men or putting on make up for men but they're doing these things feel good about themselves.. 

If women dressed up  to attract men in all situations and instances and then why is it that they still dress and potray themselves in the same way even if they're in a fulfilled relationship? 

  • Forum Administrators
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Bakir said:

What is this? What are the sources the author uses to prove this point? Is he some sort of expert in psychology?

If you consider the relative sizes of the women's and men's fashion and cosmetics industries you'll get a pretty good idea of how the consumer goods marketing experts have come to a similar conclusion. 

Curiously enough those commercial interests don't get a bad rap from women although their insecurities are certainly exploited by those firms, whereas a Muslim scholar who makes the same point immediately attracts criticism.

Most odd.

Edited by Haji 2003
Guest Wanderer
Posted
6 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Women dress without hijab and with their arms un-covered not because we want to tempt men or because of “feminism” but because it gets really hot and humId

That may be the case for some women, but certainly not all. I can say that I know women in my life who took off hijab because it oppresses them and because of “feminism”. I know, it sounds foolish but this is increasingly becoming common.

  • Veteran Member
Posted
3 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

If you consider the relative sizes of the women's and men's fashion and cosmetics industries you'll get a pretty good idea of how the consumer goods industries have come to a similar conclusion. 

Curiously enough those commercial interests don't get a bad rap from women although their insecurities are certainly exploited by those firms, whereas a Muslim scholar who makes the same point immediately attracts criticism.

Most odd.

Fashion and cosmetic industries are capricious and ever mobile; the big difference has to do with compulsion rather than choice.

SURAH NOOR AYAT 31 
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed. 
The Veil, therefore, is God mandated so it is compulsory.

Islam, it would seem,  assumes women are responsible for the lust in men, that they must be hidden, covered, and prevented from full participation in society. 

In my opinion this is unfair and degrading to women but I have come across many people who believe otherwise.

ws.

*

  • Veteran Member
Posted
3 hours ago, Ali~J said:

If women dressed up  to attract men in all situations and instances and then why is it that they still dress and potray themselves in the same way even if they're in a fulfilled relationship? 

I think there is a difference in a desire to display ones beauty and dressing to attract men. Most women have an inmate desire to look and feel beautiful, even if what she considers beautiful does not necessarily coincide with what men find attractive. Otherwise more women would be dressing in slutty clothes, because they know that's what makes men look. Only some do, the ones who are desperate for male validation and attention, but more women dress in something they think makes them look beautiful, not slutty. 

Little girls (not all of course) get excited when they have a pretty new dress to wear and can't wait to put it on and show everyone. That's not because they think it will attract boys, but because it makes them feel beautiful. By the way I've never seen that kind of excitement in a little boy over clothes. 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
2 hours ago, ireallywannaknow said:

I think there is a difference in a desire to display ones beauty and dressing to attract men. Most women have an inmate desire to look and feel beautiful, even if what she considers beautiful does not necessarily coincide with what men find attractive. Otherwise more women would be dressing in slutty clothes, because they know that's what makes men look. Only some do, the ones who are desperate for male validation and attention, but more women dress in something they think makes them look beautiful, not slutty. 

Little girls (not all of course) get excited when they have a pretty new dress to wear and can't wait to put it on and show everyone. That's not because they think it will attract boys, but because it makes them feel beautiful. By the way I've never seen that kind of excitement in a little boy over clothes. 

Yeah that was a rhetorical question buddy. 

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