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In the Name of God بسم الله

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50 minutes ago, Pingu said:

Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.

Salam

First of all brother, you are just like me uneducated in Islamic theology. As long as you do not know the truth and your searching, you believe in the shahada and  pray etc, then your a Muslim. These Sunni scholars most likely are doing takfeer on Shi’a scholars and not on laymen like me and you. I’m also sometimes feeling like shiasm is not right, but I research Islam at the moment. One thing I can say, is that the Sunni Defence are a brunch of laymen and do not just watch their vids, as an ayatollah would destroy them without even opening one book. Keep in mind that sunnism has lots of flaws too.

50 minutes ago, Pingu said:

So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what

You can be a Shi’a even if you do not call upon the Imams (عليه السلام). When I read the Qur'an, I see verses where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) critisizes those who call upon other than Him and that’s why I refrain from this practice of calling upon other than Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

 

50 minutes ago, Pingu said:

Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.

Again, you can be a Shi’a, without these “mushrik” practices.

 

50 minutes ago, Pingu said:

In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist

When Iran was first made Muslim, they were Sunnis, which is also very weird to me.

Edited by Mortadakerim

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I can't comment on most of this, but I think plenty will give you some friendly help. However what I can comment on is number 5. Don't think by jumping ship to the other side that you'll find hadiths that are full of clarity and reliable chains and narrations... I know, I've been scratching my head for the past five years trying to figure them out.

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1 hour ago, Pingu said:

I feel like I'm losing faith in shiism.

  1. So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what Christians do as in calling out Isa.
  2. Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.
  3. Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.
  4. In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist contributed to this as well is also very concerning.
  5. Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.
  6. What most worries me is the shirk committed by the aforementioned shrine visiting and the thought this is good for your religion and calling other than Allah. Need help quickly, thank you.

All the things you seem to have an issue with is just Islamic, not particularly Shia.  So perhaps you have an issue with Islam?  Wahabi propaganda make such videos and calls veneration of the sacred shrines and tombs as shirk and “bida”.  There are many Hadith compiles by great Shia scholars that are unauthentic, that doesn’t make it wrong, but just unreliable.  But you still have a sufficient amount of Shia Hadith which are very reliable and authentic.

You shouldn’t lose your faith over cheap wahabi propaganda.   

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1 hour ago, Pingu said:

So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me

Okay but Umar & Abu Bakr have graves right next to the Prophet so the Green dome is on top of them as well. So if these tombs are “bidah” than we shall also knock down the ones on top of them as well.

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2 hours ago, Pingu said:

I feel like I'm losing faith in shiism.

  1. So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what Christians do as in calling out Isa.
  2. Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.
  3. Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.
  4. In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist contributed to this as well is also very concerning.
  5. Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.
  6. What most worries me is the shirk committed by the aforementioned shrine visiting and the thought this is good for your religion and calling other than Allah. Need help quickly, thank you.

1.) There have been deviant Shias since the time of Imam Ali but there have many genuine ones too. I personally do not agree with tawassul but my knowledge tells me this has a Sunni-Sufi origin. It's evident that asking Prophets and Imams for help with the belief that they are an intermediary came much later and developed as time went on.

2.) Yes these channels are deviant and they are simply the other side of a coin. All I can say is read good Shia material try Knowing the Imams series by Allamah Tihrani (you can buy them off Amazon). These will help you understand matters like Ghadir on a deeper level and counter the arguments often given by the adversaries. Remember, those deviant groups are what lead to al-Shabab, ISIS etc - sad but true..

3.) Have you heard of the Amman message? Any Sunni calling a Shia kafir or Shia calling a Sunni kafir is not educated - they clearly do not understand the Qu'ran and Sunnah.

4.) Yes, just like Spain was conquered by the Umayyads and hence why some of their greatest scholars issued death punishments for those who called Mu'awiyah misguided (see Qadi Iyad in his biography of the Prophet). Wake up and smell the coffee here, most countries are invaded for wealth and power, religion is usually a by product used by the powers that be to manipulate the masses.

In Iran's case I think the Safavids were originally Sufis? There is a big link between Sufism and Shi'sm - in fact, most of them accept the wilayah of 'Ali but believe it can be split into spiritual ('Ali) and political (Abu Bakr, Umar etc). They have a very big love of the ahl al-Bayt and accept all the traditions such as Ghadir - may Allah have mercy on them.

5.) Yet there are so called "authentic" Sahih chains attached to hadiths which have been demolished by our Imams. (PM if you want some examples).

6.) Leave people to do what they want, you can goto a shrine for baraka and to get close to Allah.

Your religion is your own at the end of the day but remember the Shi'a proofs are very strong and accepted by the ahl al-Sunnah. The only groups that deny them are these Wahhabi type Muslims who follow people like ibn Taymiyyah. These types of scholars had a negative view of 'Ali which was transmitted to them from the days of Mu'awiyah. Rememeber, Mu'awiyah was based in Syria hence his influence was strong on the scholars there.

Shi'a sources generally are considered "weaker" because their scholars have never regarded any of their sources as "Sahih". The fact that Bukhari and Muslim are considered "Sahih" is a big bluff and a weak attempt to downplay the Umayyad influence on Islam. These channels do a good job of critisising Shi'a hadith but have never researched how much Mu'awiyah and Amr ibn al-As have helped shaped their madhab.

Edited by ali47

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Guest FunnyJoker

Wsslm brother

1. Visiting to the shrines of Imams is recommended and our master had given us a practical example for e.g. Bibi (s.a) was frequently visited to her father graves and Imam Hasan ((عليه السلام)) , Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام)) , Imam Sajjad ((عليه السلام)) etc. We are calling Imam Ali for help its a part of faith bcoz our Prophet had called Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) for help.

2. Don't worry about it bcoz these people are the companions of shaitan and there criticism proves we are on a right path.Because Yazid was an Islamic ruler as per there intellectuals.

3. Fatwas doesn't meant we are wrong bcoz there fatwa have no logic in it . 

4. Its true that Shia scholars got the good chance for propagation during safavid empire.But Saudis had supported wahabism in 20the century and they are supporting them now also.

5. The ultimate source of our hadiths is masoomeens and the source of there hadiths is Abu Huraira! These topic doesn't need more explanation.

6. Visiting to the holy shrines is habit of our Imams and there are plenty of hadiths in our books which shows importance of ziyarat of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام)) and other masoomeens. And calling iman Ali ((عليه السلام)) other than Allah for help is a sunnat of our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

The only reason of your problem is ignorance.

Make some effort to defend your faith.

1. Spend sometime with religious scholars and pious people and about your problem with them they will polish your faith.

2. Read some religious books I recommend you to Peshawar nights u will all the answer in it Inshaallah.

3. Ask for  help from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) and pray for yourself in Namaz.

And I'll also pray for you and ask for help from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)).

                                                 Thank you

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2 hours ago, Pingu said:

I feel like I'm losing faith in shiism.

  1. So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what Christians do as in calling out Isa.
  2. Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.
  3. Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.
  4. In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist contributed to this as well is also very concerning.
  5. Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.
  6. What most worries me is the shirk committed by the aforementioned shrine visiting and the thought this is good for your religion and calling other than Allah. Need help quickly, thank you.

salam brother, 

1. In Surah-e-Kahf Allah says that when Ashab-e-Kahf died again after 309 years, people created mosque over their graves and in Qur'an, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) never said that it was wrong thing.

2. Depends upon how you call Imam Ali (عليه السلام) ? If you call Imam Ali (عليه السلام) by the way of Tawassul that Ya Ali (عليه السلام) please plead my case before Allah (عزّ وجلّ), it is correct but if you call upon Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Allah (عزّ وجلّ), Imam Ali (عليه السلام) himself disliked it and punished people for it.

3. One of the signs of Qayamat is that the society will be dramatized and every one will fabricate things, you are 15 years a young boy, so depend upon what is truth and for that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) advice you: "The difference between truth and falsehood is of hearing, what you hear is most of the time falsehood and what you see with your eyes is truth". So, search the evidence of Sunni defense and anti-majos, you will find them lying, I have seen it. 

4. All Muftis are fallible, they are not divine and hence they are not guaranteed as truthful. 

6. Shia Islam in Iran spread because of Imam Reza (عليه السلام) and not because of Safavid. However, Sunni Islam lost its appeal in Iran when Imam Mehdi disproved the claims of our Sunni brothers so iranians left Sunni Islam.

7. One researched Shia book has more hadith then all the combined Sunni ahadith books. 

8. Have you went to Hajj and peformed Sae which Allah has made obligatory and in that you have to run between mountain only because of love of Hazrat Hajirah (عليه السلام), so for Hazrat Hajirah you run between mountains but for love of Prophets and his progeny, it is kufr to visit their shrines ?

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I have a great sympathy for you who is only 15 year old and in such a situation. When I was 16 year old and were first time interested about Islam, I had no idea about Shia or Sunni, so most of my research came from Sunni sources when I'm actually born Shia. After reading some months from Sunni sources, I came to realize about tatbir, and I was very shock that I almost leave Shia'ism together. But Alhamdulillah I could not leave it because it was absurd to leave something based on some other people actions or lack of knowledge. So I started to seek knowledge about Shia Islam and that is how you can resolve your matter. To seek more and more knowledge and understanding before come to any hasty conclusion.

Edited by Abu Nur

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4 hours ago, Pingu said:

I feel like I'm losing faith in shiism.

  1. So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what Christians do as in calling out Isa.
  2. Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.
  3. Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.
  4. In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist contributed to this as well is also very concerning.
  5. Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.
  6. What most worries me is the shirk committed by the aforementioned shrine visiting and the thought this is good for your religion and calling other than Allah. Need help quickly, thank you.

Just go back to the beginning

Can you proove a monotheistic creater

Can you proove Qur'an and prophethood of Prophet Muhammad 

Can you proove Imam Ali was his successor by divine commandment or even by strong suggestion from the Prophet.

If you can do all those you are Shia

It's ok to doubt the rest. Just focus on you wajib. And keep studying. We all have doubts a different levels and from different points.

 

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4 hours ago, Pingu said:

I feel like I'm losing faith in shiism.

  1. So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what Christians do as in calling out Isa.
  2. Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.
  3. Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.
  4. In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist contributed to this as well is also very concerning.
  5. Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.
  6. What most worries me is the shirk committed by the aforementioned shrine visiting and the thought this is good for your religion and calling other than Allah. Need help quickly, thank you.

Salam,

You just need to expand your knowledge. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward you for being on the straight path

1. Firstly, building shrines above the graves of the ma3soomeen is not viewed as shirk. It's not for worship, but in honour for the Ahlul Bayt(عليه السلام). These Wahhabis have not only demolished these shrines but they have also destroyed Islamic heritage sites like the house of Khadijah (عليه السلام) and the trench. These selfish leaders only care about making more profit by reconstructing.

I don't if you have heard this story (its known by alot of Shias) but more than a century ago while they were demolishing everything, they were even planning to attack the shrine of the Holy Prophet (sawas). Why do you think they destroyed others but couldn't destroy his (sawas)? Because they failed; and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punished the one who went on the green dome; they say that lightning struck him and he turned into stone. After that happened, they no longer touched the grave of our beloved Messenger (sawas). 

When Shias call Imam Ali (as)'s name or any of the 12 Imams (عليه السلام), its a form of tawassul (seeking intercession), which is nowhere near shirk. We're not asking help or fulfilling our desires or pleading mercy from them (authibillah), but it simply means we are asking them to pray for us. Its like asking someone to make dua for you, and getting closer to the people who are the closest to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is one of the ways of fulfilling our needs. Christians on the other hand, perform shirk and they do worship Jesus when they mention his name.

2. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) curse these people. They are the most uneducated ignorant piece of filth, and all of their views are illogical.

5. Majority of the narrations present in Sunni books are also present in Shia books.

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5 hours ago, Pingu said:

I feel like I'm losing faith in shiism.

  1. So many things such as the building of shrines above the graves of the Imams never made sense to me and people calling out Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is reminiscent of what Christians do as in calling out Isa.
  2. Channels such as the Sunni defense and anti majos also negatively effects my faith. The thought of there being a chance that we could somehow be Mushriks by taking part in these things are quite concerning.
  3. Also things such as prominent Sunni scholars of the past whom are very educated have given fatwas denouncing Shias as being kafirs.
  4. In addition things such as the claim Shias are the dominant sect in Iran because of the invasion of the safavids and how a persian nationalist contributed to this as well is also very concerning.
  5. Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.
  6. What most worries me is the shirk committed by the aforementioned shrine visiting and the thought this is good for your religion and calling other than Allah. Need help quickly, thank you.

Salam...

When you look at Kaabah, do you see a Cubic structure or you see Baitullah? If you see Baitullah, then please make dua to Him.  If you see only cubic structure, read Qur'an and say nothing.

When we talk about past Prophets and Imams, are they alive or dead?  We see their graves, or we see them?  If you see them as alive, then say salam and talk to them. If you only see graves, ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to bless them.

Try to under Surah Al-Fatiha.

1.  First part to let us know WHO is our Rabb.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says He should be worshipped and He should be asked for help.  But how?

2.  The how part...Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asked us to be in the right path...Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt.  They will show us the right path and how to worship and to ask help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

3.  Don't be with those people in the wrong path.  There many people in the internet that will lead us to wrong path.

Learn the simple fundamental first and sink in your heart who will lead you the right path.

 

 

 

Edited by layman

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14 hours ago, Pingu said:

Also the claim that Shia hadith is inauthentic and there being anonymity in them unlike Sunni hadith with chains of narrators and clarity.

The biographical evaluation or Ilm al-Rijal of sunnism is not based upon a revelation of Allah but a 'science' or methodology coloured by the political environment of that time as well. Far from neutral as I would say.

Because it is a science based on human opinions and perceptions Twelver Shia's are bold enough to say that a hadith is never unquestionable and authentic and the Matn plus the conformity of Qur'an is decisive for its evaluation.

Edited by Faruk

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On 7/18/2019 at 3:45 PM, Guest FunnyJoker said:

3. Ask for  help from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) and pray for yourself in Namaz.

This is one of my problems, why are so many Shias asking Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
Shortened the extremely long quote.

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Hi, have a read of this:

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ali~J

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1 hour ago, Pingu said:

This is one of my problems, why are so many Shias asking Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Read https://www.al-Islam.org/ask/is-it-true-that-Shias-ask-help-from-the-Imams-more-than-allâh-(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

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4 hours ago, Pingu said:

This Is one of my problems, why are so many Shias asking Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

It is not a belief in shiasm. If you do not want to do this, you will remain a Shia. This is also done by some Sunnis.

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On 7/19/2019 at 2:40 PM, Mortadakerim said:

It is not a belief in shiasm. If you do not want to do this, you will remain a Shia. This is also done by some Sunnis.

Sunni mostly ask the Prophet help by saying Ya Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some Sunni also go with Ya Ali. But only Shia are blamed for saying these. :grin:

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On 7/19/2019 at 4:40 PM, Mortadakerim said:

It is not a belief in shiasm. If you do not want to do this, you will remain a Shia. This is also done by some Sunnis.

I know it's a Sunni thing as well but one should be cautious in how to do it and what wordings to use.

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On 7/19/2019 at 9:47 AM, Faruk said:

The biographical evaluation or Ilm al-Rijal of sunnism is not based upon a revelation of Allah but a 'science' or methodology coloured by the political environment of that time as well. Far from neutral as I would say.

Because it is a science based on human opinions and perceptions Twelver Shia's are bold enough to say that a hadith is never unquestionable and authentic and the Matn plus the conformity of Qur'an is decisive for its evaluation.

This is spot on the quest for authentication and interpretation never ends!

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On 7/19/2019 at 11:13 AM, Pingu said:

This is one of my problems, why are so many Shias asking Imam Ali and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

This is terrible advice would 'Ali say ask me?? No wonder people become Wahhabis with this type of thinking. I appreciate these personalities are alive but do we really ask them? Did 'Ali at any point ask Muhammad (s) for help after his wordly passing? Did Hussain make dua to Hasan on the plains of Karbala? Did Imam Zain al Abideen ask 'Ali to provide him help? I appreciate I might be in the minority here but the facts seem to suggest it's a Sufi practice that's spilled over into Shi'ism.

Edited by ali47

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Reborn - Everyone said the Shias were disbelievers

Shia INTELLECTUAL Debates Mohammed Hijab

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Shia INTELLECTUAL Debates Mohammed Hijab

 

This debate was very bad actually. The Shi’a was focussing to much on the succesorship right after Prophet Muhammad (saas). This wasn’t very valuable as Sunnis consider zaidis 100% as Muslim, regardless of their stance on succesorship to the Prophet (saas). The Shi’a was just ignoring the questions asked about imamah and therefore, this debate was biased in my opinion.

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13 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

This debate was very bad actually. The Shi’a was focussing to much on the succesorship right after Prophet Muhammad (saas). This wasn’t very valuable as Sunnis consider zaidis 100% as Muslim, regardless of their stance on succesorship to the Prophet (saas). The Shi’a was just ignoring the questions asked about imamah and therefore, this debate was biased in my opinion.

Mohammed hijab always debate with un-educated Shia’s. 

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7 minutes ago, Diaz said:

Mohammed hijab always debate with un-educated Shia’s. 

I cannot say that Hijab is very educated, but even for laymen Sunnis, it is easy to destroy laymen Shi’as. They will ask Imamah from the Qur’an and then the Shi’ah will just jump to Ghadeer etc

Edited by Mortadakerim

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3 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

I cannot say that Hijab is very educated, but even for laymen Sunnis, it is easy to destroy laymen Shi’as. They will ask Imamah from the Qur’an and then the Shi’ah will just jump to Ghadeer etc

But when a Christian asks someone like Shamsi to show in Qur'an where Shahada is stated literally he will say that it is impossible to to read Qur'an without hadith.

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He should of shown Muhammad Hijab hadith of Rubah where 'Ali in Kufa gives a sermon asking people if they remember the event of Ghadir?

This is narrated many times in Ahmad ibn Hanbal's Musnad (Sunni book) along with the Ghadir narrations themselves that are described as Sahih.

Look for yourself and ask - why would 'Ali stand up in Kufa 25 years later to mention this event?

'Ali was declared to have awla (closeness) to everybody else so how could they be an Imam over him? Why would he refuse to pledge allegience? Why would Umar threaten to burn his house down (Tabari, ibn Abi Shaybah)? The Muhammad Hijab's of this world may be able to fool the uneducated but they don't have a leg to stand on! It can all be proved from their scholar's own books :)

 

image.thumb.png.f8580473e02cb17dcd43f6c3393c7b88.png

Edited by ali47

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2 hours ago, Faruk said:

But when a Christian asks someone like Shamsi to show in Qur'an where Shahada is stated literally he will say that it is impossible to to read Qur'an without hadith.

Yes! But the main focus of Sunnis 12 Imams themselves, a verse that states that after the Prophet there will be Imams. Even if numbers are not mentioned.

It comes to the fact if a Non-Muslim comes to Islam and begins reading Qur’an then from there I think the basis of your religion is established. Hadiths are then used to elaborate. But which ahadith? Sunnah or Ahlul Bayt? The Qur’an mentions Sabiqun al Awalun, but Ali and Fatima (عليه السلام) were among these. Now let’s go to the Sunnah of sahaba for example Bukhari:

It becomes clear you should follow Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt.

Now, he has ahadith but how can you use ahadith to derive Usul e Deen from Qur’an? The following Usul are clear:

- Tawheed

- Nubbuwah

- Qiyamah

- Adalah

But Imamah (succesion to the Prophet)?

the only verse that I can think of is 4:59, however at the end of the verse it talkes about referring to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Rasul in times of dispute. Why not Ulil-Amr? Aren’t they infallible? Referring to them should be no problem, right?

 

 

 

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