Are Sunnis more reliable?

[Isaam]

Somebody was arguing with me and sent me this 

they say that Shi’a hadiths came way after Sunni Hadiths, they were trying to justify Asalatul Khairim. Also is this true that it came after?

Are their Hadith more Authentic?

I was also reading they do the Sunnah way of Ghusl and we don’t, is that true?

 

Also I don’t get it, if the saved sect is the Jumaah wouldn’t it be the Sunni’s?

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Haji 2003
Unnecessary apostrophe in title

[3wliya_maryam]

Lol

they exposed us

[eThErEaL]

1 hour ago, Isaam said:

Somebody was arguing with me and sent me this 

they say that Shi’a hadiths came way after Sunni Hadiths, they were trying to justify Asalatul Khairim. Also is this true that it came after?

Are their Hadith more Authentic?

I was also reading they do the Sunnah way of Ghusl and we don’t, is that true?

 

Also I don’t get it, if the saved sect is the Jumaah wouldn’t it be the Sunni’s?

 

The Science of Sunni ahadith came way after the science of Shia ahadith. 

True.  But so what?  If anything one can use this as evidence for why Shia sciences of ahadith are more reliable than Sunni science of ahadith.  

Why?

Sciences develop due to a need.  In this case the need was to ascertain what the infallible said or did.  Shias didn’t need to “ascertain” what the infallible said or did at an earlier stage because they had Imams (12 Imams) living amongst them.  Sunnis needed the science because they started needing it right after the Prophet (S) passes away.

Edited July 13, 2019 by eThErEaL

[BowTie]

Sunni hadith has its science?

its all just “sahih” to them

[Isaam]

1 hour ago, BowTie said:

Sunni hadith has its science?

its all just “sahih” to them

They keep saying it has science, but I don't know what they mean by that

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Isaam said:

They keep saying it has science, but I don't know what they mean by that

Salam they know Sahih books specially Sahih bukhari Parallel books to Holy Qur'an  that can't be questioned like as Holy Qur'an so they don't compare hadith books by Qur'an or rational thinking , but they created all of science of justifying Hadiths at least 100 years after demise of Prophet after removing ummayid law about banning of writing & talking of Hadiths but Shia Hadiths from beginning written by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & transferred & preserved by Imams (عليه السلام) & their close companions   that modern Shia scholars like as Ayatollah khoei (رضي الله عنه) made Rijal as a tool for fixing works of previous scholars that sometimes were accepting  some hadiths from unreliable sources  without examinaing chain of narrators that is still some Scholars like as ayt Haidary know examing hadiths with Qur'an enough without examing Rijal of Hadith but Sunni way completly based on  Rijal science without examining Hadiths with Holy Qur'an.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Ashvazdanghe

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Isaam said:

they say that Shi’a hadiths came way after Sunni Hadiths, they were trying to justify Asalatul Khairim. Also is this true that it came after?

Are their Hadith more Authentic?

The truth is reversed by Sunni and they make such false claim.

Shia are the followers of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny ie 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (عليه السلام). Imam Ali as, Imam Hassan as  remain in the life of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the other Imams after them  continued to convey the message of true Islam and the sayings of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). till the ghayaba of 12 Imam Al Mahdi.. Major Shia collection of hadith Al kafi was complied by Yaqub Al Kulayni in the period of minor occultation of 12 Imam. Thus Shia hadith books are more authentic and connected to the sayings oft the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through the chain of narrators reaching to the12 Imams.

Sunni hadith book  were complied after more than 250 years . These were attributed to be taken from the companions and others after them. Shia do not consider each and every hadith as reliable in Sunni 6 major books known as Sahiheen. These books contain only few narrations from the members of the Prophet Ahl baayt as. There are also fabricated hadith because of the weak narrators in those hadith.

Shia judge the reliability of every hadith on individual basis whether it is reliable or not unlike Sunni who mostly place the prefix Sahih on the collected hadith books.

More detail can be seen at the links given below:

https://www.al-Islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/development-history-and-hadith-collections

https://www.al-Islam.org/sciences-hadith-shaykh-mansour-leghaei/meeting-6-science-knowing-references-part-1

Edited July 13, 2019 by Muslim2010

[3wliya_maryam]

4 hours ago, Isaam said:

They keep saying it has science, but I don't know what they mean by that

there's literally no science or any form of logic in their narrations they deem to be "authentic". Majority of their narrations talk about how Rasullulah (sawas) was a normal human being with flaws who had sexual desires authibillah

[Ali bin Hussein]

Depends on the perspective.

From the Sunni and zaidi (Shia) view 

The hadith are suspect

1) They came much later

2) Due to the acceptance of inffalibility a robust system wasn't required untill occultation

3) Taqiah is a suspicious criteria. It allows a weaker chain to be accepted if it is seemed an Imam was practicing taqqiyah

4) 12er themselves admit to it. It's why usooli thought won over akhbari

From a 12er perspective

1) Point 2 is in there favour if you have 12 generation of inffalibility. Sunnah is preserved through teaching

2) They have letter written by Imam Mehdi if he is infallible this is by far the most authentic transmission

3) They have a stricter criteria I.e no khawarij or haters of Imam Ali (zaidi also use this to go against Sunni hadith.)

BTW This is all my understanding not directly  from any scholarly work.

Allah knows best.

[aaaz1618]

There are faults wherever you look, except in my community we call those faults 'sahih' and you get called a disbeliever if you doubt or question those faults. Yet when there are clear contradictions between sahih hadiths and Qur'an they say 'oh it must have a meaning that only Allah knows, you can't just decipher this yourself, you have to be a scholar to do that, who are you to say so?' 

It's like being told you have to be an optometrist to see the clouds in the sky sometimes.

So no, they aren't as reliable or more reliable.

 

[Mortadakerim]

The thing is that Sunnis don’t consider our Imams (عليه السلام) as infallible, so they choose to depend on sahaba that were around the Prophet who were also fallible so they needed a science, to determine authenticity. Our Imams (عليه السلام) are fallible according to them, but Ahmed ibn Hanbal and the other 3 Imams (who were also fallible) are still a big source of jurispudence for them. Note that our Imams (عليه السلام) had the most ilm according to their OWN Imams.

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Mortadakerim

[Ali bin Hussein]

30 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

The thing is that Sunnis don’t consider our Imams (عليه السلام) as infallible, so they choose to depend on sahaba that were around the Prophet who were also fallible so they needed a science, to determine authenticity. Our Imams (عليه السلام) are fallible according to them, but Ahmed ibn Hanbal and the other 3 Imams (who were also fallible) are still a big source of jurispudence for them. Note that our Imams (عليه السلام) had the most ilm according to their OWN Imams.

 

True but there is a chain of transmission needed from infallible to us. So a system is still required.

Look up zurarah I find him very suspect. He transmitted alot of 12er hadith from Imam J. Sadiq and Imam M. Baqir.

Same can be said of Khalid wasiti (musnad Zaid)

And Abu Huraya

On a side note all the Sunni hadith bashing is ridiculous. They have by far the most transparent system and most translated works.

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Warilla

[eThErEaL]

10 hours ago, BowTie said:

Sunni hadith has its science?

its all just “sahih” to them

Not true.  

In fact the science of ahadith itself (by Shias)  was "stolen" from Sunni s.  After all Sunnis first introduced it since they first had the need for it and so they first developed it   I could have used the word "borrowed" or "derived" but I think you need the harsh tone.  

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by eThErEaL

[eThErEaL]

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam they know Sahih books specially Sahih bukhari Parallel books to Holy Qur'an  that can't be questioned like as Holy Qur'an so they don't compare hadith books by Qur'an or rational thinking , but they created all of science of justifying Hadiths at least 100 years after demise of Prophet after removing ummayid law about banning of writing & talking of Hadiths but Shia Hadiths from beginning written by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & transferred & preserved by Imams (عليه السلام) & their close companions   that modern Shia scholars like as Ayatollah khoei (رضي الله عنه) made Rijal as a tool for fixing works of previous scholars that sometimes were accepting  some hadiths from unreliable sources  without examinaing chain of narrators that is still some Scholars like as ayt Haidary know examing hadiths with Qur'an enough without examing Rijal of Hadith but Sunni way completly based on  Rijal science without examining Hadiths with Holy Qur'an.

You definitely need to study about the history of Shia ahadith.  It isn't all nice and rosy as you think.  

The Umayyids ban was in order to preserve the Qur'an so that it would not get confused or mixed with the Qur'an. 

   

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by eThErEaL

[eThErEaL]

1 hour ago, Warilla said:

True but there is a chain of transmission needed from infallible to us. So a system is still required.

Look up zurarah I find him very suspect. He transmitted alot of 12er hadith from Imam J. Sadiq and Imam M. Baqir.

Same can be said of Khalid wasiti (musnad Zaid)

And Abu Huraya

On a side note all the Sunni hadith bashing is ridiculous. They have by far the most transparent system and most translated works.

 

Abu Hurarya (رضي الله عنه) is an extraordinary case because he was miracle of the Prophet (S).

 I (Abu Hurayrah) said to Allah's Messenger “I hear many narrations from you but I forget them.” Allah's Messenger said, “Spread your garment.” I did accordingly and then he moved his hands as if filling them with something and emptied them in my garment and then said, “Take and wrap this sheet over your body.” I did it and after that I never forgot a thing.

We should be careful who we talk about or who we accuse of being a liar.  

[Flying_Eagle]

[Ali bin Hussein]

51 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Abu Hurarya (رضي الله عنه) is an extraordinary case because he was miracle of the Prophet (S).

 I (Abu Hurayrah) said to Allah's Messenger “I hear many narrations from you but I forget them.” Allah's Messenger said, “Spread your garment.” I did accordingly and then he moved his hands as if filling them with something and emptied them in my garment and then said, “Take and wrap this sheet over your body.” I did it and after that I never forgot a thing.

We should be careful who we talk about or who we accuse of being a liar.  

Unless that's reported in a chain without Abu Huraya then it's cyclic.

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Abu Hurarya (رضي الله عنه) is an extraordinary case because he was miracle of the Prophet (S).

1. Abu Hurayra narrated 5374 hadiths

4. 'Aisha Umm al-Mu'minin, 2210 hadiths

10. Umar Ibn al-Khattab, 537 hadiths

11. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, 536 hadiths

31. Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, 142 hadiths

" Taken from a book entitled Hadith Literature: It's Origin, Development, & Special Features by Muhammed Zubayr Siddiqui:

Compare the numbers of Hadiths given by Abu Baker by that of Abu Hurayra while keeping in mind that Abu Baker accompanied our beloved Prophet for about 23 years, while Abu Hurayra accompanied the Prophet for less than 2 years. 142 hadiths for 5374 hadiths.

Some of the Prophets companions (Sahaba) accused him of being a liar, telling lies about the Prophet just to make up more hadiths and gain some status. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second Khalifa threatened Abu Hurayra to send him to exile if he does not stop telling hadiths about Muhammed, he did stop until Omar's assassination then started again.

Abu Hurayra was the one accused most of fabricating hadiths. Aisha, the Prophet's wife always accused him of telling inaccurate or incomplete stories and of fabricating hadiths that she never heard the Prophet saying them.

In the famous book "Taa'oueel Mukhtalaf Alhadith " by Ibn Qutaiba Al-Dinory, the story of Aisha (the Prophet's wife) telling Abu Hurayra; " You tell ahadiths about the Prophet Muhammed that we never heard them from him"

He answered (as Bukhary reported); "You (Aisha) were busy with your mirror and make up" She (Aisha) answered him; "It is you who were busy with your stomach and hunger. Your hunger kept you busy, you were running after the people in the allies, begging them for food, and they used to avoid you and get away from your way, and finally you would come back and pass out infront of my room and the people think you were crazy and step all over you."

If we apply the supposedly rigid criteria used to select those who narrated hadiths, Abu Hurayra will be the first one to fail the test and his hadiths will be the first to be counted among the fabrications.

https://submission.org/Abu_Hurayrah.html

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Muslim2010

[aaaz1618]

5 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. Abu Hurayra narrated 5374 hadiths

4. 'Aisha Umm al-Mu'minin, 2210 hadiths

10. Umar Ibn al-Khattab, 537 hadiths

11. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, 536 hadiths

31. Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, 142 hadiths

" Taken from a book entitled Hadith Literature: It's Origin, Development, & Special Features by Muhammed Zubayr Siddiqui:

Compare the numbers of Hadiths given by Abu Baker by that of Abu Hurayra while keeping in mind that Abu Baker accompanied our beloved Prophet for about 23 years, while Abu Hurayra accompanied the Prophet for less than 2 years. 142 hadiths for 5374 hadiths.

Some of the Prophets companions (Sahaba) accused him of being a liar, telling lies about the Prophet just to make up more hadiths and gain some status. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second Khalifa threatened Abu Hurayra to send him to exile if he does not stop telling hadiths about Muhammed, he did stop until Omar's assassination then started again.

Abu Hurayra was the one accused most of fabricating hadiths. Aisha, the Prophet's wife always accused him of telling inaccurate or incomplete stories and of fabricating hadiths that she never heard the Prophet saying them.

In the famous book "Taa'oueel Mukhtalaf Alhadith " by Ibn Qutaiba Al-Dinory, the story of Aisha (the Prophet's wife) telling Abu Hurayra; " You tell ahadiths about the Prophet Muhammed that we never heard them from him"

He answered (as Bukhary reported); "You (Aisha) were busy with your mirror and make up" She (Aisha) answered him; "It is you who were busy with your stomach and hunger. Your hunger kept you busy, you were running after the people in the allies, begging them for food, and they used to avoid you and get away from your way, and finally you would come back and pass out infront of my room and the people think you were crazy and step all over you."

If we apply the supposedly rigid criteria used to select those who narrated hadiths, Abu Hurayra will be the first one to fail the test and his hadiths will be the first to be counted among the fabrications.

https://submission.org/Abu_Hurayrah.html

 

I've said it before on another thread, but I'll say it again, Imam Malik stopped collecting the hadiths of Abu Hurairah once he was made governor of Bahrain. Imam Malik found his narrations to be strange, no doubt influenced by his new found wealth and status.

[ali47]

Hadith authentication is highly subjective and the Sunni "Sahih" hadiths have been corrupted by certain personalities. Most Sunnis are unaware of the historical context in which their hadiths came about. In a similar vein Shi'a hadiths have been corrupted by the ghulat who would make the Imams higher than they actually were etc. But then again, no Shi'a scholar ever claimed their hadith books to be "Sahih" unlike the Sunni collections.

Please see my post on this thread (click and search for my second post under username ali47) below for examples of corrupted hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, unfortunately some of their well intentioned scholars came after events like the 'Ali-Mu'awiyah conflict and naively believed everyone involved to be of the same good intention... Some of the earlier Shi'a sources actually predate Bukhari and Muslim and present a much more raw version of events, but only Allah fully knows the authenticity.

You will find these corrupted hadiths have been narrated by people like Amr ibn al As (aid of Mu'awiyah and former enemy of Muhammad {s} ) and Abu Hurayrah. It's a tricky subject because the ahl al-Sunnah rely on the justness of the companions whereas the Shi'a reject this based on their actions to mawla 'Ali and his supporters. The ahl al-Sunnah will usually try explain this by saying conflicting parties tried to act in the best interest of Islam. Again, the Shi'a generally see this as naivety and a poor excuse to cover the defects of certain personalities.

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by ali47

[Follower of Ahlulbayt]

I gave some of my thoughts of the video in this thread:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235061085-reliability-of-Shia-hadith-tradition/?do=findComment&comment=3198701

[aaaz1618]

I don't know what people's thoughts are on Mufti Abu Layth, but he does a really good job of highlighting the defects in sahih hadith, Bukhari being the one he looks at because people put it in the same rank as the Qur'an. The videos are called Bukharigate... Like Watergate but Bukhari. They come in two parts I believe and are about 2hrs long each, the first 10mins you can probably skip because he does a lot of laughing and procrastinating.

He's not to everyone's liking, he's unconventional, he does like a laugh as I say and doesn't look like your average mufti, but honestly once he gets to work he is refreshing to listen to, if you haven't seen his stuff or you don't agree with his other views at least watch Bukharigate, you might have heard a lot of it before but he goes into the history of Bukhari, he doesn't just refute hadiths he goes into isnad and so on. I learnt a lot from it.

Edited July 14, 2019 by aaaz1618

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, aaaz1618 said:

h his other views at least watch Bukharigate, you might have heard a lot of it before but he goes into the history of Bukhari,

Salam , he had interviews with Bayat Al Ghadeer , I hope you enjoy it too

Mufti Abu Layth Interview Part 3 - Redefining The Criteria For Hadith

 

Mufti Abu Layth Interview Part 4 - Nexus Between Jafari & Mailki School

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Ashvazdanghe

[aaaz1618]

For anyone who believes Abu Hurairah was blessed by God in some way and is reliable, please read this from Sheikh Abdulfattah Abu Abdullah Adebalu (a Sunni sheikh from Nigeria).

”During the caliphate of Umar Ibn Al-Khattaab, he made him governor of Bahrain. Umar, as we know, used to call his rulers sternly to account. If he made one of them governor when he had two garments, on the day he ceased to govern, he should still own no more than those two garments, and it would be better to leave office with only one! But if he left Office with any display of wealth, he would not escape Umar's reckoning, even if the source of his fortune was halaal. It was another world that Umar filled with wonders and miracles.

When Abu Hurairah was made governor of Bahrain, he saved some money from halaal sources. However, Umar knew and invited him to Al-Madinah.

Let Abu Hurairah narrate the quick conversation that took place between them: Umar said to me, "O the enemy of Allah and His Book, did you steal the money of Allah?" I said, "I am not the enemy of Allah or His Book. I am the enemy of their enemy. Besides, I am not the one who steals the money of Allah!" He said, "Then how did you gather 10,000?" I said, "I had a horse that had foaled repeatedly." Umar said, "Put it (the money) in the Bait Al-Maal (the treasury)."

Abu Hurairah gave the money to Umar and raised his hands towards the sky saying, "O Allah, forgive the Commander of the Faithful." After a while Umar called Abu Hurairah and offered him the governorship again. However, he refused and apologized. Umar asked why. Abu Hurairah said, "So that my honor would not be at stake, my money would not be taken, and my back would not be beaten." He added, "I'm afraid I would judge without knowledge or speak without patience."

What's the famous idea again? If you have nothing to hide them you should have nothing to worry about. Seemed Abu Hurairah had something to worry about hence not choosing to be put back in office.

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, aaaz1618 said:

For anyone who believes Abu Hurairah was blessed by God in some way and is reliable, please read this from Sheikh Abdulfattah Abu Abdullah Adebalu (a Sunni sheikh from Nigeria).

 

We don’t belive that  he was blessed but also made many fabrication like as calling Umar as “commander of the faithful” that only belongs to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & who than him claims it is a liar even rest of our Imams didn’t call themselves as commander of faithful & even Imam Mahdi (aj) won’t use this title for himself.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

yes they are more reliable in terms of fabrications