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In the Name of God بسم الله
Mortadakerim

Non-Prophet Imams? And Ahlul Bayt?

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Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.  (5:55)

The above verse mentions three as Wali ie Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Now compare it with verse of Ulil Amr as given below:

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; (4:59)

Three ones to be Obeyed include : Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet s,a,w and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). (and 11 Imams after him) mentioned as Ulil Amr in hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). quoited earlier in this thread.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.  (5:55)

1) The above verse mentions three as Wali ie Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Now compare it with verse of Ulil Amr as given below:

2) O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; (4:59)

3) Three ones to be Obeyed include : Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet s,a,w and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). (and 11 Imams after him) mentioned as Ulil Amr in hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). quoited earlier in this thread.

wasalam

1) If you take hadith with that verse all the conditions only apply to Imam Ali

2) who are the ulil amr and also quote the final part of the verse as this goes against the idea of 12er concept of inffalibility.

3) what's the refferance as from my experience any hadith mentioning descendants of Imam Hussein as leaders have been weak. Although refferance you give may be different.

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16 hours ago, Warilla said:

1) If you take hadith with that verse all the conditions only apply to Imam Ali

2) who are the ulil amr and also quote the final part of the verse as this goes against the idea of 12er concept of inffalibility.

1. The hadith from both Sunni and Shia sources confirm that the verse of Wilaya (5:55) was revealed for the Wali that include: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali as.

But the verse of Qur'an mentions the Plural form (for the last part) ; 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Shakir

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

This provides the strong evidence in the light of other hadith for 12 Imams from the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that there are 11 Imams from descendants of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) being the first Imam.

Every Imam is considered wali in his period of Immamah and Imam Ali as being specifically referred to Wali in this verse and Arabic text mentions plural from in this verse.

2.    I like to know first before any further comments that how you consider that the verse of Ulil Amr is against the concept of Infallibility exhibited by Verse of purification (33:33)?

Zaidi Shia consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). as infallible? Do you not  take  them as Ulil Amr (those who are charged with authority) to be obeyed unconditionally?

 

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1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

I like to know first before any further comments that how you consider that the verse of Ulil Amr is against the concept of Infallibility exhibited by Verse of purification (33:33)?

Brother, he was talking about the last part of the that says: and if ye differ in anything refer it to the Allah and his messenger.

If Ulil-Amr is infallible, then why not refer it also to Ulil-Amr?

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36 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Brother, he was talking about the last part of the that says: and if ye differ in anything refer it to the Allah and his messenger.

If Ulil-Amr is infallible, then why not refer it also to Ulil-Amr?

Thanks brother for your reply, but I need for clarity to get his view before any further comments, please.

Edited by Muslim2010

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17 hours ago, Warilla said:

3) what's the refferance as from my experience any hadith mentioning descendants of Imam Hussein as leaders have been weak. Although refferance you give may be different.

The following link mentions the hadith for the names of 12 Imams including the 9 descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Shia source:

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

The hadith has been graded as Saheeh.by Allama Majlisi.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. The hadith from both Sunni and Shia sources confirm that the verse of Wilaya (5:55) was revealed for the Wali that include: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam Ali as.

But the verse of Qur'an mentions the Plural form (for the last part) ; 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Shakir

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

This provides the strong evidence in the light of other hadith for 12 Imams from the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that there are 11 Imams from descendants of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) being the first Imam.

Every Imam is considered wali in his period of Immamah and Imam Ali as being specifically referred to Wali in this verse and Arabic text mentions plural from in this verse.

2.    I like to know first before any further comments that how you consider that the verse of Ulil Amr is against the concept of Infallibility exhibited by Verse of purification (33:33)?

Zaidi Shia consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). as infallible? Do you not  take  them as Ulil Amr (those who are charged with authority) to be obeyed unconditionally?

 

Grammatically from what I understand plural form is not strong evidence. As it doesn't mean it can not apply exclusively to a singular. As for the hadith it points exclusively to Imam Ali for that specific verse.

Zaidi concept of inffalibility is different from 12er.

Also apart from the 5 inffalible Imamat is conditional. Even then it's protection from sin not all error.

Here ulil amr are all those invested with authority but it's conditional.

Edited by Warilla

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The following link mentions the hadith for the names of 12 Imams including the 9 descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) from Shia source:

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

The hadith has been graded as Saheeh.by Allama Majlisi.

wasalam

Thank you for the link. I don't accept Allan's Majlisi an authority on grading hadith. But we will obviously agree to disagree on that. And its a topic in itself.

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30 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Zaidi concept of inffalibility is different from 12er.

Also apart from the 5 inffalible Imamat is conditional. Even then it's protection from sin not all error.

Here ulil amr are all those invested with authority but it's conditional.

the answer of my specific question about infallible Imams including Imam Ali as Imam Hassan as and imama Hussain is awaited;

Do zaidi Shai not consider them infallible? Yes or No

Do ziaidi Shia not consider them to be obeyed unconditionally as ulil Amr?

Do Ziaidi Shia have right to dispute with these infallible,members of Ahl alabayt of the Prophet saw  ( as pet  the last part of the verse of Ulil Amr)?

I await the reply please.

Edited by Muslim2010

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44 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Zaidi concept of inffalibility is different from 12er.

Also apart from the 5 inffalible Imamat is conditional. Even then it's protection from sin not all error.

Here ulil amr are all those invested with authority but it's conditional.

These are contradictory statements about the concept of Imammah that has bee described truly in the light of verses of Qur'an.

Do zaidi Shai not consider them infallible? Yes or No 

Do ziaidi Shia not consider them to be obeyed unconditionally as ulil Amr?

Do Ziaidi Shia have right to dispute with these infallible,members of Ahl alabayt of the Prophet saw  ( as per  the last part of the verse of Ulil Amr)?

The best answer about Ulil Amr comes from the following verse of Qur'an:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

Shakir

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few (4:83)

Thus it is proven that 12ver Shia has the concept of infallible Imams for 12 Imams for following them unconditionally and Zaidi Shia have it for first three Imams Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

However Zaidi Shia concept of unconditional following of Ulil Amr is diverted after  the  first three / five Imams and  this is considered  deviation from the true concept of Immamat as well as Ulil Amr in the light of the verses of Qur'an.

wasaalm

Edited by Muslim2010

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

The best answer about Ulil Amr comes from the following verse of Qur'an:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

Shakir

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few (4:83)

 

The verse was revealed in a specific context. The only 12er Imams that could have been alive at the time would have been Ali, Hassan and Hussein

It's also.limted to the topic of security and fear. Here the word obey is not used.

The previous verse of ulil amr is more general but highlights in the light of disagreement go back to the Prophet and Allah.

I'm not sure how these verse proove 12 Infallible Imams ?

On the contrary if taken in context of time of revelation it can't be 12er Imams

If taken as general it's for specific matters and even then obey is not used

And when obey is used it's conditional.

 

Edited by Warilla

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

the answer of my specific question about infallible Imams including Imam Ali as Imam Hassan as and imama Hussain is awaited;

1)Do zaidi Shai not consider them infallible? Yes or No

2(Do ziaidi Shia not consider them to be obeyed unconditionally as ulil Amr?

3)Do Ziaidi Shia have right to dispute with these infallible,members of Ahl alabayt of the Prophet saw  ( as pet  the last part of the verse of Ulil Amr)?

I await the reply please.

You seem to only want yes no answers

1)Yes

2)No 

3) Yes

It might not make sense as it's just yes and no answers.

But I'm happy to expand.

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3 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

So according to Zaidi beliefs Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are free from sins, but not from error and therefore you only obey them conditionally?

Depends which Ahlul Bayt. The 5 of kisa have been gifted/ordained Infallibility. (Evidence from Qur'an and hadith)

All other Ahlul Bayt have no such status. Therefore they must obtain all the qualities to be seen as an Imam. Since they can sin there Imamat can also be opposed/removed etc infact if they become unjust it's incumbent on people to Rebel.

As for those the purified ones. They are the exception not the rule. There Imamat can not be revoked as they are gifted inffalibility and therefore would not break any of the criteria of being an Imam.

As for the error part. It gets tricky because theoretical you could oppose them on a minor issue that is not to do with sin eg war strategy but ultimately would have to accept the desicion as they are Imam. Or they may seek advice from someone who is an expert in something........But there is no room for theory as the infallibles are known  so any supposed error would need evidence. But I can highlight it with a hadith where Imam Hassan corrected Imam Hussein on a minor matter. 

The error Infallibility part is something I'm still trying to understand and needs a thread of its own.

 

Edited by Warilla

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20 hours ago, Warilla said:

Grammatically from what I understand plural form is not strong evidence. As it doesn't mean it can not apply exclusively to a singular. As for the hadith it points exclusively to Imam Ali for that specific verse.

The plural from here for Wali (ie First Imam Ali as) is strong evidence and it is further justified by the hadith for the names of 12 Imams regarding their nomination . appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  and presence in our ummah.

You have agreed to  disagree on it.

Edited by Muslim2010

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17 hours ago, Warilla said:

The previous verse of ulil amr is more general but highlights in the light of disagreement go back to the Prophet and Allah.

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4:59)

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few (4:83)

I have already mentioned the hadith for the names of 12 Imams who are caliphs after the Prophet appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they are Ulil amr after him.

I have referred the matter back to sayings of Allah s.wt. as mentioned in Qur'an and providing the evidence of referring the matter to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet saww and the Ulil Amr ie in authority as the verses of Qur'an are still applicable today and not obsolete in any sense. This clearly verifies the Shia 12 vers view about Imams and their unconditional obedience.

The verse 4:59 mentions only one "Atiu" ie Obey for both the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Ulil Amr. like    "Obey (The Prophet and those in authority from among you)".  Obeying is applicable to both confirming that Ulil Amr also has the same characteristics as that of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) except they are not Prophet for this obeying. Since the Prophet is Infallible and free from all errors & sins thus no fallible  s.a,w falls in this category except the 12 Imams from the Ahl albayt as of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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I think there is too much imposing your own views on verses to find meanings that are not there. Salafi/ Sunni are too literal and I think 12er use to much conjecture to find meanings that are not there. And often use vague or weak hadith to back there claim. But from a theoretical point of view 12er have formulated stong arguments.

But I guess we will agree to disagree

 

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49 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I think there is too much imposing your own views on verses to find meanings that are not there. Salafi/ Sunni are too literal and I think 12er use to much conjecture to find meanings that are not there. And often use vague or weak hadith to back there claim. But from a theoretical point of view 12er have formulated stong arguments.

But I guess we will agree to disagree

Your spotty arguments in this thread are failed to deny the truth explained by the verses of Qur'an and Authentic hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Yes I disagree your view on the matter of 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) and Ulil Amr  please.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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30 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Your spotty arguments in this thread are failed to deny the truth explained by the verses of Qur'an and Authentic hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Yes I disagree your view on the matter of 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) and Ulil Amr  please.

wasalam

Read a few zaidi books there following of Ahlul Bayt is anything but spotty.

The good thing is that zaidi material is becoming available. So people can see the discussions and decide as there is a true middle path between Sunni and and main stream Shia. 

 

Edited by Warilla

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18 minutes ago, Warilla said:

The good thing is that zaidi material is becoming available. So people can see the discussions and decide as there is a true middle path between Sunni and and main stream Shia.

The Zaidis are good at making spotty comments without getting the whole intent explained by the verses of Qur'an and hadith. They ask for the Hadith first :

 

On 7/14/2019 at 8:40 PM, Warilla said:

3) what's the refferance as from my experience any hadith mentioning descendants of Imam Hussein as leaders have been weak. Although refferance you give may be different.

The hadith authentic one are presented like this:

 

The hadith are Saheeh in the grading, and we get denial and rejection of those hadith like this:

:

Also the discussion on verses of Qur'an when they remain unable to respond with logical comments we get claims and blames on Shia 12vers:

I have exposed the truth.

Every one has right to understand and accept or reject the truth as per his own intention for which he / she is answerable to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I feel sorry for the one if has taken this post as odd.

wasalam

image.png

Edited by Muslim2010

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Salam,

I think we should all be sincere and ask ourself, if we just “try”, because we should do. Everyone has his own views, which should be respected, but if we want to come to a conclusion, we can’t wander off from being real. The thing is: 

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asks you on the Day, what your proofs are, can you answer?

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

Read a few zaidi books there following of Ahlul Bayt is anything but spotty.

 The good thing is that zaidi material is becoming available. So people can see the discussions and decide as there is a true middle path between Sunni and and main stream Shia. 

Brother, what is your nationality, if I may ask?

Edited by Mortadakerim

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1 hour ago, ali47 said:

The abundant hadith on 12 Imams - Allah knows best.

Please quote me 1 that is accepted by all Muslims

If not, then by all Shia 

If not that then by 12er and ismali

If you can't do that then all 12er scholars who commented on hadith transmission at least.

And if you manage that then proove the existence of the 12th.

I'll start you off the 12 caliph hadith is only accepted by 12er and Sunni. Even then it doesn't prove 12 concept of imamat.

I sincerely hope to be humbled as it would be waaaay easier to go back to being 12er for my personal life lol :grin:

 

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5 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I'll start you off the 12 caliph hadith is only accepted by 12er and Sunni. Even then it doesn't prove 12 concept of imamat.

Brother, which books are hujja upon you?

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No particular books apart from Qur'an

When it comes to fundamentals of faith Qur'an after that hadith widely accepted. I can proove the succession of Imam Ali using Sunni exclusive hadith and accepted refferances in the Qur'an.. If the concept of 12 Infallible  Imams all equally important and wajib to obey is true. Then the strength of evidence for the 12th Imam should be equal to the 1st.

Edited by Warilla

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11 hours ago, Warilla said:

If the concept of 12 Infallible  Imams all equally important and wajib to obey Is true. Then the strength of evidence for the 12th Imam should be equal to the 1st.

This is simply my main doubt about shiasm. A fundimental Usul that will make you a disbeliever, yet no where clearly in the Qur'an.

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

This is simply my main doubt about shiasm. A fundimental Usul that will make you a disbeliever, yet no where clearly in the Qur'an.

It's not a doubt on shiaism it's a doubt on 12er

You can comfortably be zaidi with this view 

Who I believe are the orthodox Shia

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On 7/10/2019 at 7:30 PM, Mortadakerim said:

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

To follow them, to take them as a role model in copying their deeds, sacrificing life, wealth and homes.

The Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) we should follow when it comes to diffirences in matters regarding the Ummah. We should hold fast to them, stay loyal to them and never turn our backs towards them.

Unfortunately this wasn't the case.

 

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13 hours ago, Warilla said:

No particular books apart from Qur'an

This anwser is so correct and ultra-superior.

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37 minutes ago, Warilla said:

It's not a doubt on shiaism it's a doubt on 12er

You can comfortably be zaidi with this view 

Who I believe are the orthodox Shia

Not a Zaydi but imamate concept is most consistent compared to others.

 

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1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Yes, I meant that

I think this is a problem the word Shia is associated with one group the way salafi is a methodology but now is associated with one type of Muslim.

 

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