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In the Name of God بسم الله
Mortadakerim

Non-Prophet Imams? And Ahlul Bayt?

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سلام عليكم

Q1. Are there, in the Qur'an, any non-Prophet Imams?

Q2. Are these non-Prophet Imams also infallible, if so how can I know this from the Qur'an?

Q3. When the Prophet (saas) said that there will be 12 caliphs after him, did he mean people who had authority over the land, whether this was done through shura or not?

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

ws/wrb

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58 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Q1. Are there, in the Qur'an, any non-Prophet Imams?

Other than these names no one else is named in the Qur'an. However, does that make them or their station and rank irrelevant? I'm only seeing the names of 26 Prophets. Because they aren't mentioned by name, what does that mean? Does that mean they weren't Imams? So if all of the Prophets who were Imams weren't mentioned then doesn't it follow that logically those that were Imams yet not Prophets wouldn't be there as well. Doesn't lower their rank or status however.

Quote

 

Prophets

Adam (25 times)

Ayyub (Job) (4 times - 4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41)

Dawud (David) (16 times)

Dhul-Kifl (1 time)

Harun (Aaron) (24 times)

Hud (25 times)

Ibrahim (Abraham) (69 times).

Idris (Enoch) (2 times - 19:56, 21:85)

Ilyas (6:85, 37:123)

Al Yasa (2 times - 38:48, 6:85-87)

Isa (Jesus) (at least 187 times with various names, titles, expressions)Isa (25 times)Son of Mary (23 times)Messiah (11 times)Child / Pure boy (9 times)Guidance possibly 22 times)Messenger / Prophet (5 times)other terms and titles (14 times)Sign (4 times)The Gift (1 time)Mercy from Us (1 time)Servant (1 time)Blessed (1 time)(1 time)Amazing thing / Thing unheard of (1 time)Example (1 time)Straight Path / Right Way (1 time)Witness (1 time)His Name (1 time)3rd person "He / Him / Thee" (48 times)1st person "I / Me" (35 times)

Is-haq (Isaac) (17 times)

Ismail (Ishmael) (12 times)

Lut (Lot) (27 times)

Muhammad (5 times - 3:144, 33:40, 47:2, 48:29, 61:6)Ahmad (1 time)

Musa (Moses) (136 times)

Nuh (Noah) (43 times)

Saleh (9 times)

Shu'ayb (10 times)

Sulayman (Solomon) (17 times)

Yahya (John) (5 times)

Yusuf (Joseph) (27 times)

Ya'qub (Jacob) (16 times)

Yunus (Jonah) (4 times - 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 37:139)

Uzayr (1 time - 9:30)

Zakariyya (Zechariah) (7 times),

 

 

1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Q2. Are these non-Prophet Imams also infallible, if so how can I know this from the Qur'an?

Define infallible? Do you define it as...

  1. Someone who is incapable of sinning?
  2. Somone who is capable of sinning, yet chooses not to?
1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Q3. When the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said that there will be 12 caliphs after him, did he mean people who had authority over the land, whether this was done through shura or not?

https://www.al-Islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-Sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-24-method-choosing-Imam-or-leader

1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

Please quote the chapter and verse of the Qur'an where it says that and we can discuss that verse.

Also, the Sunni website that you pulled those questions from is a Wahabbi/Deobandi site. Next time, copy paste questions from a legit Islamic website with questions posted by an actual contemporary 20th or 21st century Sunni Scholar, not some hack who runs a website.

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55 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Also, the Sunni website that you pulled those questions from is a Wahabbi/Deobandi site. Next time, copy paste questions from a legit Islamic website with questions posted by an actual contemporary 20th or 21st century Sunni Scholar, not some hack who runs a website.

Salam first of all,

I am a Shia, sincerly trying to research shiasm to find truth and I didn’t copy and paste anything, Allah is my witness.

These questions aren’t meant as refutation brother, they are part of my research. I made them up myself and if you really think I copy and pasted it, then show me which site, please.

55 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Other than these names no one else is named in the Qur'an. However, does that make them or their station and rank irrelevant? I'm only seeing the names of 26 Prophets. Because they aren't mentioned by name, what does that mean? Does that mean they weren't Imams? So if all of the Prophets who were Imams weren't mentioned then doesn't it follow that logically those that were Imams yet not Prophets wouldn't be there as well. Doesn't lower their rank or status however.

I didn’t ask names, I just asked for non-Prophet Imams, be it from musa or anyone’s time. This is shown by brother @Muslim2010.

 

55 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Define infallible?

Someone, who is capable of sinning, but doesn’t do it and also, he can’t make mistakes in guiding the people.

 

55 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Please quote the chapter and verse of the Qur'an where it says that and we can discuss that verse.

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

Edited by Mortadakerim

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3 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

سلام عليكم

Q1. Are there, in the Qur'an, any non-Prophet Imams?

Q2. Are these non-Prophet Imams also infallible, if so how can I know this from the Qur'an?

Q3. When the Prophet (saas) said that there will be 12 caliphs after him, did he mean people who had authority over the land, whether this was done through shura or not?

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

ws/wrb

Q1 what's your definition of Imam ?

Talut was a chosen as a leader by Allah he was not a Prophet

Q2 what's your definition of infallibility

Talut was not gifted/created inffalible

Q3 The hadith is vague no sect can use it to proove their stance. 

Q4 correct but not explicitly also it's conditional read the whole verse. Allah has only ever commanded to obey Prophet Muhammad unconditionally in the Qur'an. (As far as I know.) 

I'm happy to be corrected on any points.

Allah knows best

Edited by Warilla

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7 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

I did not state that obedience to sahaba is unconditional, however I said that we don’t follow any sabiqun al awalun

Imam Ali he was from the muhajiroon infact he was the foremost

Edited by Warilla

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5 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

سلام عليكم

Q1. Are there, in the Qur'an, any non-Prophet Imams?

Q2. Are these non-Prophet Imams also infallible, if so how can I know this from the Qur'an?

Q3. When the Prophet (saas) said that there will be 12 caliphs after him, did he mean people who had authority over the land, whether this was done through shura or not?

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

ws/wrb

1. Imam Khidr (عليه السلام) wasn’t a Prophet and he was mentioned in the Qur'an. He was even more knowledgeable than Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) and will come in the end times along with Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) and Prophet isa (عليه السلام). I’m not sure if thul qarnayn was a Prophet but he is also mentioned in the Qur'an too.

there are verses in the Qur'an that talk about these Imams, but that doesn’t mean their names are mentioned. Same thing for khidr. He was an Imam yet his name wasn’t even mentioned. Also there’s a verse in the Qur'an 

 

"Surely Allah aforetime took a covenantfrom the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them”(Qur’an 5:12)

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّـهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا

"We divided them into twelve nations. We directed Moses by revelation when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: ‘Strike the rock with your staff;’ out of it there gushed forth twelve springs so that each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds and sent down to them manna and quails (saying): ‘Eat of the good things We have provided for you,’ (but they rebelled.) To Us they did no harm but they harmed their own souls.”(Qur’an 7:160).

 

"And when We said: ‘Enter this Town and eat of the plenty therein as you wish; but enter the Gate (of the City) with humility in posture and in words so that We forgive you your sins and increase (the portion of) those who do good.’“(Qur’an 2:58).

The Gate in the above verses has a striking similarity with one of the attributes of Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) mentioned by our Prophet (S) that is: "The Gate of the City of Knowledge."

The Messenger of Allah said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and ‘Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate."

إنا مدينة العِلْم و عليٌ بابها، فَمَنْ أرادَ المدينة و الحكمة فليأتِها من بابها.

- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637

- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226

- Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081

 

If you link to the Holy Prophet’s narrations and the Holy Book then it makes sense as to how Allah appointed twelve righteous caliphs to rule after him . It isn’t just mentioned in Islam but it is also written in the Bible and the Torah.

2. Verse 33:33 is very clear about it. Numerous narrations aswell. 

3. No bc then that means the corrupt leaders who took authority over the land are his successors. He obviously meant the righteous successors from his lineage who were infallible and pious.

4. Where’s your source?

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Please mention verses from Qur'an which prove the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).
question
Is it possible to prove the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from verses of Qur'an? Please mention the method of proof so I may convey this to my brothers in faith who are followers of the Sunni school of thought.
Concise answer

The best approach in proving the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for followers of the Sunni school of thought is through means of what has been mentioned in the Qur'an and narrations which have been mentioned in their own sources. Obviously, this can only be accomplished when an individual is willing and eager to seek the truth. Meaning, one engaged in such a quest should be prepared to turn away from that which is false or irrational.

The Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) can be proven through means of many verses found within Holy Qur'an and narrations from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) surrounding their revelation.

Consider the following verses:

1. The Verse of Tabligh (propagation): “O Apostle! Communicate that which has been sent to you from your Lord, and if you do not, you will not have communicated His message, and Allah shall protect you from the people. Indeed Allah does not guide the faithless lot.” ........

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1817

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17 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

Universal guide/leader over mankind, like the imamah of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) 

See Qur'an 2:124

I don't think there are any explicit non Prophet examples. Especially if you throw in infallibility. There are refferances to Imam Ali though but you need to couple it with hadith and teachings of Ahlul Bayt.

Edited by Warilla

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2 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

These Imams were not succesors. According to Shias, there can be only one hujjatullah at a time?

The principle of Imams/ leaders appointed by Allah is governed in both of them ie 12 leaders in bani Israel and 12 Imams in our ummah from the progeny of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

It rejects  the selection of people chosen leaders / caliph for the guidance of the ummah.

Edited by Muslim2010

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47 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I don't think there are any explicit non Prophet examples. Especially if you throw in infallibility. There are refferances to Imam Ali though but you need to couple it with hadith and teachings of Ahlul Bayt.

I agree on this 

the only thing that is clear for me is that there is:

1. Divine appointment

2. Prophets are infallible

3. Ahlul kisa are infallible, according to the hadith of the cloak (surah 33:33)

4. I think authority is for Ahlul Bayt, but the doctrine of 12 Imams is vague, if we hold it next to the Qur'an; Ali is the succesor of the Prophet (saas), Hassan and Hussain (عليه السلام) are his succesors, but the proof for non-Prophet Imams is vague, especially if throw in infallibility, as you said.

Im Twelver myself and I am looking into the main difference between Imami-Shias and other Islamic sects.

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2 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

4. I think authority is for Ahlul Bayt, but the doctrine of 12 Imams is vague, if we hold it next to the Qur'an; Ali is the succesor of the Prophet (saas), Hassan and Hussain (عليه السلام) are his succesors, but the proof for non-Prophet Imams is vague, especially if throw in infallibility, as you said.

The verification of the hadith of 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) in the light of verses of Qur'an can be seen in the following link:

The link given below also provide the evidence for the confirmation of the Hadith thaqlayn based on the verses of Qur'an:

wasalam

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17 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The principle of Imams/ leaders appointed by Allah is governed in both of them ie 12 leaders in bani Israel and 12 Imams in our ummah from the progeny of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

It rejects  the selection of people chosen leaders / caliph for the guidance of the ummah.

Salam brother,

I never agreed with shura and I will never do, also Ahlul Bayt has the right of rule, but:

1. The Imams of bani Israel lived at the same time

2. The 12 Imams lived in different times and were succesors.

3. Shias believe there is one divine ruler at a time

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22 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

سلام عليكم

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

ws/wrb

Does this verse contradict what Prophet PBUHHP said ?

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2 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salam brother,

I never agreed with shura and I will never do, also Ahlul Bayt has the right of rule, but:

1. The Imams of bani Israel lived at the same time

2. The 12 Imams lived in different times and were succesors.

3. Shias believe there is one divine ruler at a time

In the light of the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and history of Islam it is proven fact that there is always one living Imam from the progeny ie Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as guide to the ummah and he is successor of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is Ulil Amr to be obeyed unconditionally.

Wasalam.

Edited by Muslim2010

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4 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

In the light of the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and history of Islam it is proven fact that there is always one living Imam from the progeny ie Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as guide to the ummah and he is successor of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Wasalam.

Shia believe that there is only one Imam, but they also believe in the verse of Qur'an which says: "Momineen are friends of Momineen". And, Qur'an says us to follow Sahaba in good deeds and do not follow in bad conduct. But for Ahlebait (عليه السلام) there is verse in Qur'an which says: "We have purified you a thorough purification". Hence, they are not to be refused in any way because they are always right. 

Secondly, My question was that whether Prophet (PBUHHP) said anywhere that you are to follow only Sahaba or does Qur'an says it ? Qur'an says: "And obey Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and the Messenger and those among you in authority". We take Ahlebait (عليه السلام) as authority and our Imams have confirmed being such now, if you refuse their claims that they are not authority, then that is your Iman brother because I would say that Imam Abu Hanifah himself believed that there is no authority more reliable than Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Imam Jafar al Sadiq, Imam Musa al Kazim and Imam Ali Reza (عليه السلام). 

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29 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Shia believe that there is only one Imam, but they also believe in the verse of Qur'an which says: "Momineen are friends of Momineen". And, Qur'an says us to follow Sahaba in good deeds and do not follow in bad conduct. But for Ahlebait (عليه السلام) there is verse in Qur'an which says: "We have purified you a thorough purification". Hence, they are not to be refused in any way because they are always right. 

Secondly, My question was that whether Prophet (PBUHHP) said anywhere that you are to follow only Sahaba or does Qur'an says it ? Qur'an says: "And obey Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and the Messenger and those among you in authority". We take Ahlebait (عليه السلام) as authority and our Imams have confirmed being such now, if you refuse their claims that they are not authority, then that is your Iman brother because I would say that Imam Abu Hanifah himself believed that there is no authority more reliable than Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Imam Jafar al Sadiq, Imam Musa al Kazim and Imam Ali Reza (عليه السلام). 

Brother you have stated rightly about the Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Do you have any question for me to answer, please?

Edited by Muslim2010

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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

In the light of the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and history of Islam it is proven fact that there is always one living Imam from the progeny ie Ahl albayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as guide to the ummah and he is successor of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is Ulil Amr to be obeyed unconditionally.

Wasalam.

Wasalam wa rahmat allahi,

Brother,

How do you interpret “those endowed with authority”. Is this the Imam?

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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother you have stated rightly about the Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Do you have any question for me to answer, please?

No brother, I do not have any question right now, but if I have in future, I will ask you insha-Allah,  :) May Allah (عزّ وجلّ) bless you for the sake of Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

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4 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

I agree on this 

the only thing that is clear for me is that there is:

1. Divine appointment

2. Prophets are infallible

3. Ahlul kisa are infallible, according to the hadith of the cloak (surah 33:33)

4. I think authority is for Ahlul Bayt, but the doctrine of 12 Imams is vague, if we hold it next to the Qur'an; Ali is the succesor of the Prophet (saas), Hassan and Hussain (عليه السلام) are his succesors, but the proof for non-Prophet Imams is vague, especially if throw in infallibility, as you said.

Im Twelver myself and I am looking into the main difference between Imami-Shias and other Islamic sects.

Thats my belirf set. It's why I follow zaidi Shia. Look into it.

Edited by Warilla

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17 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

Wasalam wa rahmat allahi,

Brother,

How do you interpret “those endowed with authority”. Is this the Imam?

Ulil Amr are the Imams from the Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They have been given the authority by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for guiding the ummah. Their authority has nothing to do with that of a people chosen caliph.

It is narrated from Jabir Ibne Abdullah Ansari that he said:

When the Almighty Allah revealed the following verse on His Prophet:

“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger and those possessing authority among you.” (4:59)

I said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! We know Allah and His Messenger. But who are the possessors of authority whose obedience Allah has accompanied with your obedience?’ He (S) explained, “They are my caliphs, O Jabir, and the Imams of the Muslims after me. The first of them is Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام), then Hasan (عليه السلام) and Hussain (عليه السلام), then Ali Ibn Hussain (عليه السلام), then Muhammad Ibn Ali (عليه السلام) the one who is famous as al-Baqir in the Old Testament. Soon, you will meet him, O Jabir, so when you face him, convey my salutation to him.

He will be followed by Sadiq, Ja’far Ibn Muhammad, then Moosa Ibn Ja’far, then Ali Ibn Moosa, then Muhammad Ibn Ali, then Ali Ibn Muhammad, then al-Hasan Ibn Ali, then the one who will be my namesake and bear my patronymic, the proof of Allah in His Earth and His remainder among His servants, the son of Hasan Ibn Ali. He (aj) is the one at whose hands Allah, High be His remembrance, will open the east of the Earth and its west. He (aj) is the one who will be concealed from his Shias and his friends, an occultation in which none will be steadfast on the belief of his Imamate except the one whose heart has been tested by Allah for faith.”

Jabir says that he asked, ‘O Messenger of Allah (S)! Will the Shias benefit from him during the occultation?’ He (S) replied, “Yes, by the One Who sent me with Prophethood! Surely they will benefit with his light and gain from his mastership in his occultation like people derive benefit from the sun when the clouds hide it. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasures of His knowledge, so hide it except from the ones worthy of it.”1

It is narrated from Abu Baseer that His Eminence, Abu Ja’far Baqir (عليه السلام) said regarding the statement of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime:

“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger and those possessing authority among you.”

Imams from the progeny of Ali and Fatima (عليه السلام) till the day of Qiyamat.”2

It is narrated from His Eminence, Abu Abdillah Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he said regarding the statement of the Almighty Allah:

“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger and those possessing authority among you.

It is especially mentioned about us…”3

https://www.al-Islam.org/mikyalul-makarim-fee-fawaaid-ad-duaa-lil-qaim-vol-1/64-obedience-ulil-amr-those-authority

wasalam

 

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 7/10/2019 at 11:00 PM, Mortadakerim said:

سلام عليكم

Q3. When the Prophet (saas) said that there will be 12 caliphs after him, did he mean people who had authority over the land, whether this was done through shura or not?

ws/wrb

Wasalam.

Khalifa  means vicegerent / representative

 One who is authorized to act on behalf of the other.

e.g.

وَكَانَ الْحَارِثُ، خَلِيفَةَ عُثْمَانَ عَلَى الطَّائِفِ 

Al-harith was the khalif of Uthman over the Ta’if.  Sunan Abi Dawud.

قَالَ اسْتَخْلَفَ مَرْوَانُ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ عَلَى الْمَدِينَةِ وَخَرَجَ إِلَى مَكَّةَ

Marwan appointed Abu Huraira as his deputy in Medina and he himself left for Mecca.  Sahih Muslim

So Abu Huraira was Khalif of Marwan In Medina.

Khilafat implies the meaning of authorization instead of election or selection.

إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً

Indeed I will make in the Earth a vicegerent.  2:30

Adam was Khalif of Allah in the Earth.

يَا دَاوُودُ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاكَ خَلِيفَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ

O Dawud we have made you a vicegerent in the Earth. 38:26

Now khilafat is of Allah that is confessed by the Umar.

وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يَكُنْ لِيُضَيِّعَ دِينَهُ وَلاَ خِلاَفَتَهُ وَلاَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ بِهِ نَبِيَّهُ صلى الله عليه وسلم 

“And indeed Allah never destroy his religion nor his khilafat and that with which he raised his Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) “. Sahih Muslim Book 4 hadith 1151.

Now when the  Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said there will be 12 khalifas after me that means they will be "khalif  of Allah" because khilafat belongs to Allah only.

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On 7/10/2019 at 6:30 PM, Mortadakerim said:

سلام عليكم

Q1. Are there, in the Qur'an, any non-Prophet Imams?

Q2. Are these non-Prophet Imams also infallible, if so how can I know this from the Qur'an?

Q3. When the Prophet (saas) said that there will be 12 caliphs after him, did he mean people who had authority over the land, whether this was done through shura or not?

Q4. Allah said in the Qur'an to follow the muhajireen and the ansar with good conduct, why did the Prophet (saas) say follow Ahlul Bayt and the Qur'an says to follow sahaba?

ws/wrb

1.) Yes, in al-Baqarah there is the example of Talut (non-Prophet) who was chosen by Samual (Prophet). After Talut, the wilayah was then passed to Dawud (عليه السلام) who was a Prophet. Shi'a often use this argument from the Qu'ran (2:247) to prove a non-Prophet can inherit the wilayat. Remember, an Imam just means a divine leader.

2.) Not sure depends what you mean by infallibility. In my own knowledge infallibility is a concept that developed over time. Surah 33:33 and hadith ahl al-Kisa show the ahl al-Bayt are pure. Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) is reported to have said they never "doubt" Islam. The ghulats later enhanced this concept..

3.) Yes it has been interpreted as authority figures by the Shi'a and Sunni.

4.) All these instructions are conditional. The sahaba were guided by Muhammad (s) and his ahl al-Bayt for foremost of which was 'Ali. Therefore, if the sahaba say one thing but the ahl al-Bayt say something else, we will take the ahl al-Bayt's opinion. The Qu'ran sanctions following someone who is directly guided over someone who is indirectly guided.

Qur'an (10:35)

Sahih International: Say, "Are there of your 'partners' any who guides to the truth?" Say, " Allah guides to the truth. So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?"

Edited by ali47

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23 minutes ago, ali47 said:

Yes it has been interpreted as authority figures by the Shi'a and Sunni.

So your saying that this can only be applied to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), since they were the only Imams who ruled the land?

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1 minute ago, Mortadakerim said:

So your saying that this can only be applied to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), since they were the only Imams who ruled the land?

The evidence would suggest this is applicable to the 12 Imams.

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1 hour ago, ali47 said:

The evidence would suggest this is applicable to the 12 Imams.

What evidence ?

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21 hours ago, ali47 said:

The evidence would suggest this is applicable to the 12 Imams.

The authority has been given by Allah s.wt to Imams and not by the people.  They are caliphs appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  It does not mean that all the caliphs appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) rule in the land since only few of the Prophets were given authority to rule in the land out of 124,000 Prophets.

This criteria also applies to 12 Imams. Like the Prophet Dawood (عليه السلام) who is appointed caliph by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 12th Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) has been mentioned as khalifatullah in hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The rule of Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) will be over the world to make the Islam as sole religion of Allah s,w.t

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) appoints Ali (عليه السلام) and the people want Abu Bakr, then Ali will remain the leader since his imamah can’t “leave” him, as it is bestowed upon Ali by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and thus only Allah can take leadership away.

Edited by Mortadakerim

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