Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Logic1234

Nomination or Selection, what is truth?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

:bismillah:
 

فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانْصَبْ {7}

[Shakir 94:7] So when you are free, nominate.
[Pickthal 94:7] So when thou art relieved, still toil
[Yusufali 94:7] Therefore, when thou art free (from thine immediate task), still labour hard,

There is another translation which is " Hence, when thou art freed [from distress], remain steadfast,"

Lets first see the meaning of root word "Nasb" ن ص ب  from which the word "ansab" originated
As per Qur'an Arabic Corpus, the word "ansab" used in this verse is a verb (form I) and it is also used as verb (form I) in one more verse mentioned below:

وَإِلَى الْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ
88:19 

The meaning of "Nusibat" in above verse is "they're fixed". Nasb in verb form I, itself means "to nominate" or "to fix". 

In its noun forms, the word  نَصَبٌ or نُصُبٍ or نَصِيبٌ have variety of meanings and that include fatigue, goal, share, portion etc. 

The translations which have used the meaning toil or labor hard or remain steadfast are absurd and I was unable to understand why these translators have translated this word in this way until I reach to the following hadith of Sahih Muslim:
 

Quote

 

Book 20, Number 4485:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. 'Umar who said: I was present with my father when he was wounded. People praised him and said: May God give you a noble recompense ! He said: I am hopeful (of God's mercy) as well as afraid (of His wrath) People said: Appoint anyone as your successor. He said: Should I carry the burden of conducting your affairs in my life as well as in my death? (So far as Caliphate is concerned) I wish I could acquit myself (before the Almighty) in a way that there is neither anything to my credit nor anything to my discredit. If I would appoint my successor, (I would because) one better than me did so. (He meant Abu Bakr.) If I would leave You alone, (I would do so because) one better than me, I.e. the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), did so. 'Abdullah says: When he mentioned the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) I understood that he would not appoint anyone as Caliph.

There in fact are two hadith in Sahih Muslim narrated from Calip Umar Al-Khattab that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never nominated anyone as Imam or Mowla or Khalifa. But the verse 94:7 clearly mentioning the command "NOMINATE" in a verb form I. So the translators perhaps have taken the words of their caliph and translated the word "ansab" wrongly which further have made the verse weird. 

[Pickthal 94:7] So when thou art relieved, still toil

I am unable to understand this has been translated in this way, "So when you're free or relieved, still work hard"???? They have used to meaning of Arabic word "Kabad" (90:4) here. 

 

[Yusufali 94:7] Therefore, when thou art free (from thine immediate task), still labour hard,

Again, labor hard is not the true meaning of ansab. 

If you look at the Qur'an Arabic Corpus or in any other dictionary, you will not find these sort of meanings for the word ansab nor for the root word 
"Nasb" ن ص ب

I therefore come to the conclusion that the translation of Shakir is a correct translation. The command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) here in this verse is to nominate, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not set a time frame here and related this matter to the situation when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got free or relieved from the tasks which surrounded him at that very moment. And we see that when the time came, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم): 

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ
[Shakir 5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message,
[Pickthal 5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message.
[Yusufali 5:67] O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission.

This is a reminder and a direct command to Prophet to do what has been told earlier I.e., the nomination. The importance and severity of this command can be observed from the words used in this verse of "Balligh" which starts with addressing the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his designation (O Messenger) and then its relationship with the entirety of the message. And what is more interesting is the verse which speaks about the perfection of the religion and its relationship with the nomination:

  الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسْلاَمَ دِينًا
( This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.)

This verse is said to have revealed at Ghadeer e Khum, specifically when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) finished with nominating Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the Wali or Mowla of believers. 

So my question after presenting all this is that how the brothers of Ahlul Sunnah defend this storng argument in which verses of holy Qur'an effectively turn down their ideology that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have not nominated anyone as his successor? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2019 at 1:03 PM, Logic1234 said:

:bismillah:
 

فَإِذَا فَرَغْتَ فَانْصَبْ {7}

[Shakir 94:7] So when you are free, nominate.
[Pickthal 94:7] So when thou art relieved, still toil
[Yusufali 94:7] Therefore, when thou art free (from thine immediate task), still labour hard,

There is another translation which is " Hence, when thou art freed [from distress], remain steadfast,"

Lets first see the meaning of root word "Nasb" ن ص ب  from which the word "ansab" originated
As per Qur'an Arabic Corpus, the word "ansab" used in this verse is a verb (form I) and it is also used as verb (form I) in one more verse mentioned below:

وَإِلَى الْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ
88:19 

The meaning of "Nusibat" in above verse is "they're fixed". Nasb in verb form I, itself means "to nominate" or "to fix". 

In its noun forms, the word  نَصَبٌ or نُصُبٍ or نَصِيبٌ have variety of meanings and that include fatigue, goal, share, portion etc. 

The translations which have used the meaning toil or labor hard or remain steadfast are absurd and I was unable to understand why these translators have translated this word in this way until I reach to the following hadith of Sahih Muslim:
 

There in fact are two hadith in Sahih Muslim narrated from Calip Umar Al-Khattab that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never nominated anyone as Imam or Mowla or Khalifa. But the verse 94:7 clearly mentioning the command "NOMINATE" in a verb form I. So the translators perhaps have taken the words of their caliph and translated the word "ansab" wrongly which further have made the verse weird. 

[Pickthal 94:7] So when thou art relieved, still toil

I am unable to understand this has been translated in this way, "So when you're free or relieved, still work hard"???? They have used to meaning of Arabic word "Kabad" (90:4) here. 

 

[Yusufali 94:7] Therefore, when thou art free (from thine immediate task), still labour hard,

Again, labor hard is not the true meaning of ansab. 

If you look at the Qur'an Arabic Corpus or in any other dictionary, you will not find these sort of meanings for the word ansab nor for the root word 
"Nasb" ن ص ب

I therefore come to the conclusion that the translation of Shakir is a correct translation. The command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) here in this verse is to nominate, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not set a time frame here and related this matter to the situation when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got free or relieved from the tasks which surrounded him at that very moment. And we see that when the time came, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم): 

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ
[Shakir 5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message,
[Pickthal 5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message.
[Yusufali 5:67] O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission.

This is a reminder and a direct command to Prophet to do what has been told earlier I.e., the nomination. The importance and severity of this command can be observed from the words used in this verse of "Balligh" which starts with addressing the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from his designation (O Messenger) and then its relationship with the entirety of the message. And what is more interesting is the verse which speaks about the perfection of the religion and its relationship with the nomination:

  الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسْلاَمَ دِينًا
( This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.)

This verse is said to have revealed at Ghadeer e Khum, specifically when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) finished with nominating Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the Wali or Mowla of believers. 

So my question after presenting all this is that how the brothers of Ahlul Sunnah defend this storng argument in which verses of holy Qur'an effectively turn down their ideology that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have not nominated anyone as his successor? 

The question is actually not about nomination or selection but about nomination in the absence of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

There was selection in the Rashidun era but with the consent of the 3 Imams (عليه السلام) who were designated as such by the Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

After their departure selection was the only option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Faruk said:

After their departure selection was the only option.

Would you please quote any example of selection of caliph / Imam/ leader / Prophet by the people for their guidance instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from the Qur'an?

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Would you please quote any example of selection of caliph / Imam/ leader / Prophet by the people for their guidance instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from the Qur'an?

Who were the Imams between Ishmail (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

How long were the Bani Israil without a Prophet or Imam after the ascension of Isa (عليه السلام)?

And weren't their schollars the heirs of the Prophets?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The Prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the disbelievers. 

Qur'an 5:44

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Faruk said:

Who were the Imams between Ishmail (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

How long were the Bani Israil without a Prophet or Imam after the ascension of Isa (عليه السلام)?

And weren't their schollars the heirs of the Prophets?

As the question made by last post remains unanswered it confirms the following:

No, Imam,, caliph, leader or Prophet was chosen by the people for their guidance as all these were chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in many verses of Qur'an. The people has no right of their selection after the Prophet through consultation or other methods.

Scholars may be considered in apparent meanings as heirs of the Prophet but they are not chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance of the people. Guided Imams,  caliphs. leaders or Prophet are chosen alone by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and people have no right for their selection. The following link may be seen for further details please:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031459-Allah-chosen-Prophets-leaders-with-consultation/

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Faruk said:

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The Prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the disbelievers. 

Qur'an 5:44

The Qur'an does mention what happened afterwards when non Muslim followed their scholars instead:

Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing. (5:63)

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31)

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Scholars may be considered in apparent meanings as heirs of the Prophet but they are not chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the guidance of the people. 

The point proven is that 1) there is no unbroken line of continuation of Prophets and Imams and 2) that during the absence of the latter the sholars ... were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto ...

 

 

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Faruk said:

The point proven is that 1) there is no unbroken line of continuation of Prophets and Imams and

Agreed the above statement except for the Imams from Ahl albayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  and the other part 2) is found contradictory to the other the verses already presented in my last post.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Agreed the above statement except for the Imams from Ahl albayt of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  and the other part 2) is found contradictory to the other the verses already presented in my last post.

wasalam

There is no contradiction in the Qur'an.

The verses you mentioned only state that the scholars failed in their task which was to judge by it (the Torah) for the Jews by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto ...  ...

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Faruk said:

The verses you mentioned only state that the scholars failed in their task as they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto ...  ...

The verses of Qur'an make it clear that following the scholars was incorrect principle in comparison to the following of rightful guided and chosen leaders by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like Imams, caliphs, leaders and the Prophets .

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The verses of Qur'an make it clear that following the scholars was incorrect principle in comparison to the following of rightful guided and chosen leaders by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like Imams, caliphs, leaders and the Prophets .

If there were no Imams at that time, then why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) entrust these people with the Scripture, when it is wrong to follow these scholars. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

If there were no Imams at that time, then why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) entrust these people with the Scripture, when it is wrong to follow these scholars. 

Your post has raised two points as given below:

1. How do you interpret that the Prophet  or Imam was absent (referring to the verse 5:44)?

2.  The scholars were not chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as successor of the Prophet. Do you disagree? May like to see your view please.

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

The verses of Qur'an make it clear that following the scholars was incorrect principle in comparison to the following of rightful guided and chosen leaders by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like Imams, caliphs, leaders and the Prophets .

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31)

This indicates that the problem was not in following both scholars and the Messiah (Prophets in general) but in worshipping them.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Faruk said:

This indicates that the problem was not in following both scholars and the Messiah (Prophets in general) but in worshipping them.

I have already quoted the following verse in my last post:

Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing. (5:63)

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235062806-nomination-or-selection-what-is-truth/?do=findComment&comment=3228783 

 And the same has been admitted by yourself that:

"The verses you mentioned only state that the scholars failed in their task which was to judge by it (the Torah) for the Jews by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto ...  ..."

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235062806-nomination-or-selection-what-is-truth/?do=findComment&comment=3228848

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful?

Qur'an 5:63 

Why did God expected them (the Scholars) to forbid the Jews from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful?

Their authority, trust and responsibility was not based on appointment but in them being a witness and their knowledge of the Scriptures as Allah shows us in the verse.

So divine appointment is not the only basis for rulership or religious authority.

 

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Why did God expected them (the Scholars) to forbid the Jews from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful?

So in simple words whoever performs Amr bil maroof and Nahi an al Munkir is a divine authority for your? Even the scholars did not perform it.

The scholars had no authority over the Jews but it is being compared like divine appointment of Prophet or Imam.  This is illogical

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mortadakerim said:

If there were no Imams at that time, then why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) entrust these people with the Scripture, when it is wrong to follow these scholars. 

Exactly!

It's a theological issue concerning imamate to exclude all authority not based on appointment.

Realistically seen, all religious communities and sects do depend on scholars. Especially nowadays, Twelver community included.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

So in simple words whoever performs Amr bil maroof and Nahi an al Munkir is a divine authority for your?

That's not what the verse said. 

It first mentioned the Prophets and then the rabbis and scholars. No one else.

I also did not say divine authority. Divine authority is based on divine appointment.

I said religious authority which is based on scholarship concerning the knowledge and interpretation of the Scriptures as transmitted by the Prophets. 

The verse also states that none but the Prophets, rabbis and scholars are able to judge the believers.

Judgment is not exactly the same but related to authority.

To my humble understanding, rabbis and scholars have the authority during the absence of Prophets and Imams.

The actual question is what state we are in today.

 

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Judgment is not exactly the same but related to authority.

To my humble understanding, rabbis and scholars have the authority during the absence of Prophets and Imams.

The actual question is what state we are in today.

As per Shia 12ver view The scholars are intermediary taking the people towards the sayings of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams.

In the occultation period of 12th Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام)  the Uleama/ . scholars are serving the religion  to take the weak people in  belief towards the sayings of Imams in order to keep them with the path of the Prophet and Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام). The scholars are not counted as successors of the Prophet and Imams being fallible people and the count of Imam is limited to 12 only.

I hope this explains 12ver view in the light of hadith of Imams and the present scenario.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam brother',

I do not accept but do respect and understand your view. 

The best Islamic leader at the moment is the Supreme Leader of Iran.

As a non-Shia I believe in his policy which is based on Haqq for all Muslims and all people.

He's a great man. May Allah bless and protect him and the Islamic Republic.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/20/2019 at 2:25 PM, Faruk said:

The question is actually not about nomination or selection but about nomination in the absence of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم

Salam,

Brother, the question is exactly what has been put forward in the OP. Since Sunni brothers claims that Prophet (S) has not nominated anyone as his successor and left this important matter on ummah while there is a verse which says "So when you're free, nominate". 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salam,

Brother, the question is exactly what has been put forward in the OP. Since Sunni brothers claims that Prophet (S) has not nominated anyone as his successor and left this important matter on ummah while there is a verse which says "So when you're free, nominate". 
 

Salam,

It wouldn't be problematic if it wasn't for the flexible attitude of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) towards the rulership of the Shaykhayn (رضي الله عنه).

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...