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In the Name of God بسم الله

Surah 3:7 refutes us?

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(Bismillah)

(salam)

In the chapter 3 verse 7 of the Holy Qur'an Allah talks about those who follow mutashabihat verses and that the foundation of religion is based on muhkama verses:

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Quick note: Allah says that those that twist ayas are deviant

Doesn’t this verse include people like us who believe in imamah of 12 Imams(عليه السلام) as a foundation of religion, yet there is no muhkama verse in the Qur'an talking about the appointment of 12 Imams(عليه السلام) after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).(عليه السلام).), surely if the appointment of the Imams would be as clear as the other Usul, then there would be no dispute about it’s validity.

Also this is a muhakama verse:

Say: He is One. 

And not:

And we made them Imams guiding by our command.

Also if one were to reject any Usul, they are out of Islam, so why do Shias consider Sunnis and other sects to be Muslims, they are not ignorant and they can read Qur'an.

they also believe in imamah, but not of the 12 Imams (عليه السلام) 

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There were many Sahabas who were good to name few: Hazrat Salman-e-Muhammadi, Hazrat Abu Dhar Ghafari, Hazrat Miqdad, Hazrat Yasir Ammar, Hazrat Meesum-e-Timar, Hazrat Zuhair ibn Qayn, Hazrat Habib ib

I respect your belief but Imam Ali (عليه السلام) cooperated for the sake of Islam and did not do bayah of first 3 caliphs, and also had difference with 3 caliphs on the question of caliphate for this

Forget about proving Imamah of 12 Imam (عليه السلام) Prove me Prayer (Salah) with all its entirety in Qur'an..You have to prove everything from Qur'an. I am not ready to accept any hadith narrati

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57 minutes ago, Guest Light said:

 

Who are "rasikhoona fil ilm"?

 

Salamun aleika brother, 

Please read the verse carefully it says wama ya’lamoe ta’weelehoe ila Allah we rasikhoona fil ilm yaqoeloena amana bihi. 

Allah starts a new sentence after saying that only he knows it’s taweel and then hè speaks about rasikhoona fil ilm and says that they believe innit but it does not say that they know the interpretation.

Also this wouldn’t make us closer to a muhkama ayah for imamah

 

ws/wbr

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Rasikhuna fil ilm refers to Ahlul Bayt (عليهم اسلام).

Ali Bin Muhammad, from Abdullah Bin Ali, from Ibrahim Bin Is’haq, from Abdullah Bin Hammad, from Bureyd Bin Muawiya,  

(It has been narrated) from one of the two (5th or 6th Imam) regarding the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic [3:7] but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge: ‘So Rasool-Allah is the most superior of the ones firmly rooted in the knowledge. Allah Mighty and Majestic had Taught him the entirety of what had been Sent down upon him from the Revelation, and it was not so that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would Revealed something unto him and not Teach him its interpretation.

And his succesors from after him knew all of it, and those that are not knowing its interpretation, when the scholar said regarding them with knowledge, so Allah Answered them with His Words [3:7] We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. And the Qur'an (has Verses which are) Particular, and General, and Decisive, and Allegorical, and Abrogating, and Abrogated. So the ones firmly rooted in the knowledge are knowing it’. 

(Al-Kafi, Vol. 1, The book of divine authority, chapter 22)

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31 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

3:7] but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge

Salamun alaika akhi,

Brother this is not in the verse, it says that no one knows it’s interpretation except for Allah and then Allah starts a new sentence  wich says that the rashikhoona fil ilm say that we believe in it.

But I was not asking this, I was talking about a muhkama verse for imamah as Allah criticizes those who twist unclear verses to fit their believes. Please don’t go off topic

ws/wrb

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yet there is no muhkama verse in the Qur'an talking about the appointment of 12 Imams(عليه السلام) after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).(عليه السلام).)

Why does it need to be in Qur'an in that form? Even Salafis believes in 12 Imams, even Sunnis believe in them. Of course Quranist don't believe in them because they can't derive any sensical interpretation about it nor do they believe in Sunnah of Prophet.

This is enough proof of Imamate:

1. (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

2. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.

3. Say: I do not ask you aught in return except that he who will, may take the way to his Lord. (The Ahlulbait (عليه السلام) are the way)

---

As for Sunnis and Shias and even Salafis accept the following Hadith:

Qutayba b. Sa‘eed from Jareer from Hussayn from Jabir b. Samura. He said: I heard the Prophet say: Surely, this Order (I.e. the Caliphate) will not cease until there have been twelve Caliphs among them, he narrator said: The Prophet then said something I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: All of them will be from Quraysh. 3 (Sahih Muslim, Book 33, Book of Government, hadith #5)

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As you are Shia, I believe the following will be enough for you:

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from ‘Abdillah b. Ghalib from Jabir from Abu Ja‘far (عليه السلام) . He said: He said: When
this verse was revealed, “The day we will call every person with their Imam” (17:71) the Muslims said: O Messenger of Allah, are you not the Imam of all of the people altogether? He said: So the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: I am the Messenger of Allah to the people altogether, but there shall be Imams over the people after me from Allah from my Ahl al-Bayt, rising amongst the people. So the Imams of kufr and misguidance and their partisans will bely them and oppress them. Surely, whoever is loyal to them and follows them and believes in them is from me. Surely, whoever oppresses them and assists upon their oppression and belies them is not from me and not with me, and I dissociate from him. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, Book 4, Chapter on the two Imams in the Qur’an: An Imam that calls to Allah, and an Imam that calls to the Fire, hadith #1) (sahih)( (صحيح

- Rejecting Imams is Rejecting The whole religion of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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A verse that talks about the raising of Imams with their people. So, akhi, as imamah is an Usul, which can make you kafir if you reject it, Allah has infinite mercy, how could He establish a belief where there is no specific mention of in the Qur'an. You wouldn’t need tafsir to prove an Usul, one muhkam verse should suffice. If a non-Muslim would convert, then he would read Qur'an first and he would know all Usul en Rukun, but not imamah? And remember Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dislikes those who twist mutashbihat verses to fit their believe so:

There is no muhkam verse in the Qur'an for a believe that can make you kafir, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves you more than the love of 70 mothers, how could He not mention such a fundamental believe in the Qur'an with atleast one verse?

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45 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

A verse that talks about the raising of Imams with their people. So, akhi, as imamah is an Usul, which can make you kafir if you reject it, Allah has infinite mercy, how could He establish a belief where there is no specific mention of in the Qur'an. You wouldn’t need tafsir to prove an Usul, one muhkam verse should suffice. If a non-Muslim would convert, then he would read Qur'an first and he would know all Usul en Rukun, but not imamah? And remember Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dislikes those who twist mutashbihat verses to fit their believe so

Do you know what is even Usul? Usul are not mentioned in Qur'an but it is defined by the Scholars to show what the particular sect believes are. Imamah in Shia Islam is a must because we have so many narrations from Prophet and Qur'an verses to show that believe on it is necessary.

Quote

If a non-Muslim would convert, then he would read Qur'an first and he would know all Usul en Rukun, but not imamah?

Why not Imamah?. He will read the verses;

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam;

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.

-- He will surely ask himself who is his Imam and who are those who we need to obey and have authority among us.

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There is no muhkam verse in the Qur'an for a believe that can make you kafir, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves you more than the love of 70 mothers, how could He not mention such a fundamental believe in the Qur'an with atleast one verse?

There are clear verses that say those who reject Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commandments are kafirs. Imamah is order from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), rejecting it, is Kufr. Sunnis, Shias, Salafis do not reject 12 imamah.

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12 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Why not Imamah?. He will read the verses;

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam;

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.

-- He will surely ask himself who is his Imam and who are those who we need to obey and have authorIty among us.

Salam,

I never said he won’t see imamah, I said he won’t conclude from the Qur'an that after Prophet Mohammed there will be 12 infallible Imams, imamah literally means leadership. Anyone can see that.

15 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Do you know what is even Usul? Usul are not mentioned in Qur'an but it is defined by the Scholars to show what the particular sect believes are. Imamah in Shia Islam is a must because we have so many narrations from Prophet and Qur'an verses to show that believe on it is necessary.

Qiyamah, Tawhid, Nubuwwah and Adl are very clear in the Qur'an. I agree that Sunnis don’t know who to obey, while we have Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), but I never said sunnism doesn’t have it’s flaws though 17:71 is still hard to go around and it is muhkam, so I give you that, thank you ,akhi.

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Surely, this Order (I.e. the Caliphate) will not cease until there have been twelve Caliphs

A caliph is someone who rules according to Sunnis, so this verse can only be applied to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

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I never said he won’t see imamah, I said he won’t conclude from the Qur'an that after Prophet Mohammed there will be 12 infallible Imams, imamah literally means leadership. Anyone can see that.

Wa Aleikum Salaam,

It is important that Qur'an define the concept of Imamah. As for the numbers, no it is not mentioned directly in Qur'an their numbers. It is not even confusion, because every major sect believe in 12 Imamah and it is narration that is very know. The Non-Muslim who convert will reach to either to become Sunni or Shia and thus accept the 12 Imams, or stay with Qur'an only and reject the Sunnah of Prophet and will interprate by his own understanding.

Quote

Qiyamah, Tawhid, Nubuwwah and Adl are very clear in the Qur'an. I agree that Sunnis don’t know who to obey, while we have Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), but I never said sunnism doesn’t have it’s flaws though 17:71 is still hard to go around and it is muhkam, so I give you that, thank you ,akhi.

But also Imamah is in Qur'an. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have chosen certain people as Imams for others.

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so I give you that, thank you ,akhi. 

Wa Iyyaakum Brother.

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No, the verse just says that you can't go arbitrarily interpreting the scripture of Allah. Those who seek discord do that. This verse doesn't refute the Imams anymore than following the Sunnah of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). This verse does also, however, hint at the contrary. The Prophet and his Twelve Successors follow that guided role, they are divinely appointed in it's meaning, it's an important distinction because The Holy Prophet and Imams were not random people, as evident. 

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10 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salamun aleika brother, 

Please read the verse carefully it says wama ya’lamoe ta’weelehoe ila Allah we rasikhoona fil ilm yaqoeloena amana bihi. 

Alaikas-Salam Brother,

What is meant by term "rasikhoona fil ilm" if the interpretation of the mutashabeh verses are only known to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Second question arise would be that, if we accept your argument, that would mean that none except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has knowledge of the book because He is the only one who knows interpretation of muhkam & mutashabeh verses. Now if that is the case, how would you describe the term used in the last verse of chapter 13 I.e., " wa man endahu ilmul kitab"? 

This is not "ilmun min alkitab" which is usually translated as "knowledge from book" and that shows limitations. The phrase "wa man endahu ilmul kitab" does not reflect any sort of limitations as it is usually translated as "whoever has knowledge of the book"

Third question would be with reference to a name of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned in Qur'an I.e., dhikr. 

Surah At-Talaq, Verse 10-11:

أَعَدَّ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا قَدْ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْرًا رَّسُولًا يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ لِّيُخْرِجَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ وَمَن يُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ وَيَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا قَدْ أَحْسَنَ اللَّهُ لَهُ رِزْقًا 

Allah has prepared for them severe chastisement, therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding who believe! Allah has indeed revealed to you a reminder, An Apostle who recites to you the clear communications of Allah so that he may bring forth those who believe and do good deeds from darkness into light; and whoever believes in Allah and does good deeds, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers now, to abide therein forever, Allah has indeed given him a goodly sustenance.

Keeping this in mind what would be the meaning of this divine command:

فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ

16:43

Ask from the followers of earlier revelation or ask from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)?

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Wassalam rahamatAllah

Akhi, I never said that only Allah knows the ta’veel, I only said that verse 3:7 does not say that the radikhoona fil ilm know the ta’veel. Allah know the book only and speaks to us threw the Prophet. There should be always be an infallible among us, who can interpret the Qur'an at the will of Allah, because it is illogical to send a Prophet without an infallible succesor, to leave to dispute about basic things like how to pray. 

We are really in need of Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف):cry:

 

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It seems there is a difference beteren Muslim and momin, but both are Muslim.

There is an opinion that those who reject imamah, are Muslim but not Shia. And thus not momin, also I think in surah 49:15 Allah makes a distinction between Muslim and momin. And he rewards both for being pious.

Usul are set by scholars and Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) hasn’t made clear in the Qur'an which Usul are important for your imaan. 

Allah decleared imamah for certain people in the Qur'an and you will be raised with your Imam on yawm u deen. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).(عليه السلام).) said dying without recognising your Imam is like a pagans death. Only Shias know there Imam. And there are hadiths that support Imamah of the twelve (عليه السلام) very well.

So according to this non-Shias are also Muslim?

 

 

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One of the issues I have with imamate is that the Bani Israel did not have an continuous line of Imams but rather had scholars who inherited the Prophets and their knowledge. 

 

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The Prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the disbelievers.

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On 6/27/2019 at 10:12 PM, Mortadakerim said:

(Bismillah)

(salam)

In the chapter 3 verse 7 of the Holy Qur'an Allah talks about those who follow mutashabihat verses and that the foundation of religion is based on muhkama verses:

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Quick note: Allah says that those that twist ayas are deviant

Doesn’t this verse include people like us who believe in imamah of 12 Imams(عليه السلام) as a foundation of religion, yet there is no muhkama verse in the Qur'an talking about the appointment of 12 Imams(عليه السلام) after the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).(عليه السلام).), surely if the appointment of the Imams would be as clear as the other Usul, then there would be no dispute about it’s validity.

Also this is a muhakama verse:

Say: He is One. 

And not:

And we made them Imams guiding by our command.

Also if one were to reject any Usul, they are out of Islam, so why do Shias consider Sunnis and other sects to be Muslims, they are not ignorant and they can read Qur'an.

they also believe in imamah, but not of the 12 Imams (عليه السلام) 

we also pray five times while in Qur'an there are three times written ? So, how would you refute this ?

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26 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

we also pray five times while in Qur'an there are three times written ? So, how would you refute this ?

Salam

I did not refute imamah. I just asked a question, as im Shia myself. Brother, in the Qur'an it says everywhere to pray and not everything has to be mentioned in the Qur'an. Prayer is a very fundimental belief more important than imamah.

That is why salah HAS to be explicit. 

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50 minutes ago, Faruk said:

 

One of the issues I have with imamate is that the Bani Israel did not have an continuous line of Imams but rather had scholars who Inherited the Prophets and their knowledge. 

 

Salam,

Akhi, but with which Imam would these people then be raised with? To make something clear there is a opinion within shiasm that the one who rejects imamah, because ikhtilaf is still a Muslim, but prayer for example is mentioned clearly in the Qur'an, but the imamah of the twelve Imams isn’t, but there is a proof divine leadership. We do consider you to be Muslim and you are our brother in Islam. Usul are made by scholars and I also heard something about Duriyat-e-Deen (salat, sawm, tawheed, nubuwwah etc.), that is the difference between Muslim and kafir and imamah wasn’t one of them.

ihdina sirat al mustaqeem

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50 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salam

I did not refute imamah. I just asked a question, as im Shia myself. Brother, in the Qur'an it says everywhere to pray and not everything has to be mentioned in the Qur'an. Prayer is a very fundimental belief more important than imamah.

That is why salah HAS to be explicit. 

I also asked a question brother. Like in Qur'an, the number of prayers is not explicit but implicit, the number of 12 Imams is not explicit but implicit. However, like Qur'an mentions to pray salah, it also says to obey Ulool Amr and says that every nation will be raised up with its Imam. 

Besides, the importance of Salah and Imam shouldn't be compared because Prophet ( PBUHHP ) said to Imam Ali (عليه السلام): "O! Ali, if a person says daily prayers, fast everday, fights for the sake of Allah ( عزّ وجلّ ), performed seven Hajj and died while performing saee but does not love you, his all worship will be null and void".

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2 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

also asked a question brother. Like in Qur'an, the number of prayers is not explicit but implicit, the number of 12 Imams is not explicit but implicit. However, like Qur'an mentions to pray salah, it also says to obey Ulool Amr and says that every nation will be raised up with its Imam. 

Salam brother, 

This is why I made a post just now where I talked about duriyat a Deen, which according to some, imamah was not part of. Imam khomayni (rh) also said that it’s Usul al Madhab, if I am not mistaken. Scholars themselves made Usul so that is why there is ikhtilaf.

The only thing which I think is illogical is that imamah of the twelve Imams (عليه السلام) is as important as some Shias say.

Because this means we do mass-takfir on most non-Twelvershia scholars, because they studied Qur'an very well and have their interpretations.

In the Qur'an it says you’ll be raised with your Imam, but why did Allah say to follow  the Sabiqun al Awalun min al muhajiruun wal ansar too. We already have an infallible Imam who won’t make us have disputes, unlike Sahaba who are fallible.

 

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4 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salam brother, 

This is why I made a post just now where I talked about duriyat a Deen, which according to some, imamah was not part of. Imam khomayni (rh) also said that it’s Usul al Madhab, if I am not mistaken. Scholars themselves made Usul so that is why there is ikhtilaf.

The only thing which I think is illogical is that imamah of the twelve Imams (عليه السلام) is as important as some Shias say.

Because this means we do mass-takfir on most non-Twelvershia scholars, because they studied Qur'an very well and have their interpretations.

In the Qur'an it says you’ll be raised with your Imam, but why did Allah say to follow  the Sabiqun al Awalun min al muhajiruun wal ansar too. We already have an infallible Imam who won’t make us have disputes, unlike Sahaba who are fallible.

 

In which verse Allah says to follow muhajireen and Ansars can you quote verse? 

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10 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

In which verse Allah says to follow muhajireen and Ansars can you quote verse

Verse 9:100

It says to follow the sabiqun al awalun min al muhajireen and ansar, but not to follow all of them

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

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The concept of Imamat is in the Qur'an. The characteristics of those to follow are in the Qur'an. But the details are what the sects disagree on. 

If Imamat wasn't restricted in some way then Abu bakar would not have used the argument of it being restricted to Quraish to validate his caliphate.

So Imamat is in the Qur'an and all sects beleive it. Like salat or wudhoo it's the details we differ on.

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5 minutes ago, Warilla said:

So Imamat is in the Qur'an band all sects beleive it. Like salat or wudhoo it's the details we differ on.

The difference in salah and wudu is not tantamount to kufr, if I am not mistaken, but If you reject one Imam according to some Shias, your imaan is gone, which sounds illogical, because the Qur'an doesn’t emphasize a lot on imamah, when comparing it for example to salah or tawheed, while Shias emphasize much more on imamah.

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7 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

The difference in salah and wudu is not tantamount to kufr, if I am not mistaken, but If you reject one Imam according to some Shias, your imaan is gone, which sounds illogical, because the Qur'an doesn’t emphasize a lot on imamah, when comparing it for example to salah or tawheed, while Shias emphasize much more on imamah.

That's reactionary due to sectrainism and politics. The way some Sunni say you are out of Islam if you curse sahaba. 

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35 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salam brother, 

This is why I made a post just now where I talked about duriyat a Deen, which according to some, imamah was not part of. Imam khomayni (rh) also said that it’s Usul al Madhab, if I am not mistaken. Scholars themselves made Usul so that is why there is ikhtilaf.

The only thing which I think is illogical is that imamah of the twelve Imams (عليه السلام) is as important as some Shias say.

Because this means we do mass-takfir on most non-Twelvershia scholars, because they studied Qur'an very well and have their interpretations.

In the Qur'an it says you’ll be raised with your Imam, but why did Allah say to follow  the Sabiqun al Awalun min al muhajiruun wal ansar too. We already have an infallible Imam who won’t make us have disputes, unlike Sahaba who are fallible.

 

1. Who are "some" that say that imamah was introduced by them as an usuool and not by Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and Prophet (PBUHHP) ?

2. All usool-e-Deen are derived from Qur'an and Hadith, anything which people follow but it is not given by Qur'an and Hadith, they are termed as heresy. Usool-e-Deen were already in Qur'an and Hadith but were arranged properly by our Imams and later on scholars narrated to us through books. No any scholar would ever say that what they have written about religion is from them.

3. I am amazed as to why it is illogical to you since Prophet (PBUHHP) has already explained it in both Sunni and Shia books that there will be 12 Caliphs or Imams. Sunnis believe in Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and forgot rest of Imams until Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) but Shias believe from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) till Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) and all of Imams in between were famous to be incomparable to any scholar in their era. I do not know why Sunnis forgot those incomparable and magnificent personalities.

4. No any Twelver Shia scholar disagrees with the usool of 12 Imams. if you know anyone then he is not a twelver Shia at all.

18 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Verse 9:100

It says to follow the sabiqun al awalun min al muhajireen and ansar, but not to follow all of them

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

5. The above verse clearly says to follow ashab in good conduct and it does not say to follow them always. From this you must know that they are not infallible and there is condition to their follower-ship but House of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are infallible and they are to be followed always and if you see that one Ashab is doing injustice to them, you have to leave that Ashab and stick to Ahlebait (عليه السلام) as Qur'an says that you have to follow ashab in good conduct and not in sin.

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The concept of Allah’s Oneness is mentioned in the Qur'an but not all of His Names are mentioned. The rest of His Names along with His Attributes and other details are mentioned in the Hadith. Prophethood is mentioned but only a number of Prophets out of the 124000 are mentioned in the Qur'an and yet you still have to believe in all of them. Likewise for Imamah. Just because the names of the Ma’sumeen are not mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an does not negate their divinely appointed authority. The foundations of Imamah as a concept where only Allah appoints those who represent his Deen on Earth is mentioned throughout the Qur'an (eg. the story of Talut) and this suffices to declare it as a pillar of the religion. As for the name of the Imam, his attributes, the period of time that he will succeed his predecessor and other details are mentioned in the Hadith.  

MUHSIN KHAN - Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed. With Him is (the knowledge of) the unseen of the heavens and the Earth. How clearly He sees, and hears (everything)! They have no Wali (Helper, Disposer of affairs, Protector, etc.) other than Him, and He makes none to share in His Decision and His Rule." [al-Kahf: 26]

In the end, if you believe in the Mahdi, where both Sunnis and Shias agree on his divinely appointed authority, then you cannot deny Imamah because they are tied together. It is illogical and inconsistent with Allah’s Justice to believe that in the end of times Allah alone will appoint the Mahdi and at the same time allow the tribes of the Arab peninsula, that have been feuding with each other for centuries such as the Aws and the Khazaraj to leave the authority of the Deen in their hands after the departure of the Prophet and decide between themselves who gets to represent the Prophet.

Edited by Al-Hassan
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43 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

conduct and it does not say to follow them always. From this you must know that they are not infallible and there is condition to their follower-ship but House of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are infallible and they are to be followed

That’s also what I said, but we follow only Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and we have almost no narrations from sahaba who were good.

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3 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

That’s also what I said, but we follow only Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and we have almost no narrations from sahaba who were good.

But that is the point, the source of knowledge should take and is best taking from the family. That is why we emphases so much on the hadith of thaqalayn. It is very important because the Prophet (saws) did know that there would be so many people (different sources) sharing so many different knowledge varying on how much they even memorize it or understand it correctly. Also the possibility of deviation of the narration of Prophet was there, so he trusted His family who are the sea of knowledge to make the people understand the Qur'an and His Sunnah. These are what we call leaders appointed by God. This is what the Qur'an verse refers: And We made them leaders guiding by Our command.

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