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In the Name of God بسم الله

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1 hour ago, TryHard said:

Mutah bad, this bad, that bad, even nikkah marriage lol. Some people are worried about about making gays accepted and whatever when we barely accept heterosexuality honestly.

Exactly. Add another step to make Halal difficult. 

1. Parent's don't think son/daughter is ready for marriage even when told so. Needs to be a certain level of financially settled.  -- practice self control

2. Find appropriate suitor which ticks all the boxes, age, culture, religion , looks, family, money, social status, some level of mental compatibility  -- practice self control

3. Get engaged.                 -- practice self control

4. Get married (finally!)                  --- STILL PRACTICE SELF CONTROL !!

 

@Jawad231  If a soul is destined to enter this dunya at a given time, no amount of planning from humans can stop it and if it isn't no amounts of effort can lead to a couple getting pregnant. What we can do however, if follow the commands of Allah meantime and trust Him to take care of our affairs and have hope in his mercy.I cannot get over the 'years long planning' of her parents. Can they see into the future?Are they willing for their daughter to be cursed by Angels of the heaven every night? May Allah bless you with a long prosperous happy life with your family but how can they guarantee their daughter will be happily shipped to Netherlands in two years times, ready to start a married life? Sometimes even the best laid plans fail so what we can at least do is go the right thing islamically in the present, this is what we have in our hands NOW. 

 

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@starlight can’t tell if you agree with me or are saying practice self control?

I mean of course discipline and self control is important but my thing is that shouldn’t stop  people from doing halal things like intercourse with his wife, mutah etc... 

Netherlands has nothing to do with his Islamic right if they are married it is his right for intercourse. In fact it’s haram to not have intercourse at least once every 4 months according to some Maraji with ones young wife.

brother @Jawad231 this means when you get to Pakistan you definitely have to fulfill your right (I.e ignore this talk of self control) 

for your situation specifically ask your marja fur guidance.

http://www.alhakeem.com/en/questions/928

Is it obligatory on the husband to have sex with his wife?

Answer : 

It is not permissible for the husband to abandon sexual intercourse with his permanent wife for more than four months. He must have sexual intercourse with her at least once every four months in the usual way to satisfy her sexual need. The same is obligatory with the temporary wife based on compulsory precaution.

Edited by TryHard

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40 minutes ago, TryHard said:

can’t tell if you agree with me or are saying practice self control?

I agree with you, completely.

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On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

I live in the Netherlands  and my wife lives in Pakistan. We've been married for over a year now.

Odd question, but she can't join you in the Netherlands, yet ? 

On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

Each year I visit my wife in the summer during holidays. Then we will also sleep together.

So the two of you have had sex together?

On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

But the problem is that her parents don't allow me and her to have intercourse with each other.

How exactly do they do that?

On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

We are allowed to sleep together but we aren't allowed to have intercourse.

Again, how exactly do they keep the two of you from having sex? 

On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

I don't know what to do.

Islamically, as long as you two are married and she is willing to have sex, then you have every right as a married couple to have sex whenever you wish to.

On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

On the other hand having intercourse will be against the will of her parents. Also I will break their trust. 

Ummm...having sex is a matter that only concerns the husband and wife. If they are both willing to having sex then it is not the parents' business at all.

On 6/25/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jawad231 said:

I hope you can help me out with this question.

Well, honestly speaking this is a very problematic thing. Personally, I'm of the mindset that they are waiting for her Netherlands' Immigration to go through and then your wife will most probably try to divorce you.

In most legal systems, as well as the Sunni fiqhs (I have to look up what the Jafari fiqh states about this) if a couple does not have sex for a set period of time then a divorce can be filed for. If memory serves, Islamically if a couple does not have sex for 4 months and they are not having sex because one of the two is choosing not to have sex, then the other has the right to ask for a divorce. (Someone correct if I'm wrong on the timeframe on this please, I'm speaking from memory...but there is a time period that is stipulated from the perspective of denying your partner sex). This only applies to denying a partner sex...this doesn't apply in your situation when you are both in different countries. 

 

Edited by Akbar673

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6 minutes ago, Akbar673 said:

Odd question, but she can't join you in the Netherlands, yet ? 

So the two of you have had sex together?

How exactly do they do that?

Again, how exactly do they keep the two of you from having sex? 

Islamically, as long as you two are married and she is willing to have sex, then you have every right as a married couple to have sex whenever you wish to.

Ummm...having sex is a matter that only concerns the husband and wife. If they are both willing to having sex then it is not the parents' business at all.

Well, honestly speaking this is a very problematic thing. Personally, I'm of the mindset that they are waiting for her Netherlands' Immigration to go through and then your wife will most probably try to divorce you.

In most legal systems, as well as the Sunni fiqhs (I have to look up what the Jafari fiqh states about this) if a couple does not have sex for a set period of time then a divorce can be filed for. If memory serves, Islamically if a couple does not have sex for 4 months and they are not having sex because one of the two is choosing not to have sex, then the other has the right to ask for a divorce. (Someone correct if I'm wrong on the timeframe on this please, I'm speaking from memory...but there is a time period that is stipulated from the perspective of denying your partner sex). This only applies to denying a partner sex...this doesn't apply in your situation when you are both in different countries. 

 

Thanks for your reaction.

My wife can't join me in the Netherlands yet because I study. To have her in the Netherlands I muat have stable income, thus having a job.

We sleep together but we don't have intimacy. They trust us on this. Also they might ask their daughter if we had sex or not if I'm not around.

They think I'll fail them to get their daughter to the Netherlands. So as a precaution we aren't allowed to have sex with each other because then the girl doesn't get pregnant and is not seen as used in the community. 

I know their way of acting is against Islamic laws. They think I don't know anything according my Islamic laws in having sex while married. They think I will listen to them how matter. Luckly they're wrong. With the help of you guys I can convince them with evidence that I have every right over my wife and they can't get them from me. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has brought me in contact with her. Has engaged me with her. Has arranged me a marriage with her. Then the last step should not be out of the blue. I know that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is supporting me with this situation. I know that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) approves me with my choice to have intimacy, because I have done anything in an Halal way. Subhanallah

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3 hours ago, TryHard said:

@starlight can’t tell if you agree with me or are saying practice self control?

I mean of course discipline and self control is important but my thing is that shouldn’t stop  people from doing halal things like intercourse with his wife, mutah etc... 

Netherlands has nothing to do with his Islamic right if they are married it is his right for intercourse. In fact it’s haram to not have intercourse at least once every 4 months according to some Maraji with ones young wife.

brother @Jawad231 this means when you get to Pakistan you definitely have to fulfill your right (I.e ignore this talk of self control) 

for your situation specifically ask your marja fur guidance.

http://www.alhakeem.com/en/questions/928

Is it obligatory on the husband to have sex with his wife?

Answer : 

It is not permissible for the husband to abandon sexual intercourse with his permanent wife for more than four months. He must have sexual intercourse with her at least once every four months in the usual way to satisfy her sexual need. The same is obligatory with the temporary wife based on compulsory precaution.

I will fullfill my rights. And if not I will have a good chat with her parents. Maybe I will invite an Imam to help things out. 

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1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

My wife can't join me in the Netherlands yet because I study. To have her in the Netherlands I muat have stable income, thus having a job.

Oh ok, I see now. This is based on the Immigration policies of the Netherlands.

1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

We sleep together but we don't have intimacy. They trust us on this. Also they might ask their daughter if we had sex or not if I'm not around

What will happen if they find out you two have had sex? What possibly could they do since you are a legally married couple?

1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

They think I'll fail them to get their daughter to the Netherlands. 

So why did they agree to the marriage yet? They're more concerned about their daughter (and of course, eventually themselves) getting to the Netherlands than having any respect for their Son-in-law? 

1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

So as a precaution we aren't allowed to have sex with each other because then the girl doesn't get pregnant and is not seen as used in the community. 

but doesn't the community already know that she is married to you? I don't see the logic of their actions. Even if she doesn't have a child she will still have to deal with the backwards mentality of people saying she was already married anyway.

1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

I know their way of acting is against Islamic laws.

I don't think this has anything to do with Islam. Its more along the lines of how they are as people. Very materialistic people who are only concerned with getting to the Netherlands. 

1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

They think I will listen to them how matter. Luckly they're wrong. With the help of you guys I can convince them with evidence that I have every right over my wife and they can't get them from me.

You can offer them the verses of the Qur'an and they won't listen to you. They're not interested in Islamic rules or laws, they only are concerned with leaving Pakistan and making their way to another country. You do understand that they only see you as means to an end. You are their means of leaving Pakistan, not much more than that. How much respect do you think they actually have for you when they are stopping you from having sex with their daughter? Not much, I would say.

1 hour ago, Jawad231 said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has brought me in contact with her. Has engaged me with her. Has arranged me a marriage with her. Then the last step should not be out of the blue. I know that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is supporting me with this situation. I know that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) approves me with my choice to have intimacy, because I have done anything in an Halal way. 

Sure, you're married to her. Now you need to take the steps of explaining this to her parents, that she is your wife in Islam and in Pakistani Law. Tell them if they don't like it, then you will divorce her and they can have her back (that'll shut them up real good).

You've married into some materialistic In-Laws. Good luck with that because if they are taking these steps when you've only been married for 1 year then its safe to assume there's a lot more coming for the rest of your life with them. 

What do your parents have to say about all of this? Do they even know?

Edited by Akbar673

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Guest de trout

Look at it from the parent's perspective. They don't want to risk their daughter losing her virginity in vain. What if you fail in your goals? What then? I don't know about you, but I do know they'd be left with a non-virgin daughter. They want the marriage to be "real", not this long distance relationship thing you have going on. Putting myself in their shoes, I sure as heck wouldn't let my daughter lose her chastity in what is effectively an engagement, it has to be in a real marriage where they live together. 

Don't listen to the people telling you to go behind the parent's backs and find a hotel, please respect their wishes as silly as they may seem. 

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On 6/26/2019 at 6:59 AM, Jawad231 said:

Each year I visit my wife in the summer during holidays. Then we will also sleep together. But the problem is that her parents don't allow me and her to have intercourse with each other. We are allowed to sleep together but we aren't allowed to have intercourse.

Walaykum as Salam,

Islamically if you two are married, then you can sleep with each other and have intercourses as much as you want. Once married, you became your wife’s wali, her parents shouldn’t and don’t have any say in this matter as long as there is no harm or indicency involved. Her parents can’t prevent you from intercourse with your own wife. 

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3 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

Look at it from the parent's perspective. They don't want to risk their daughter losing her virginity in vain. What if you fail in your goals? What then? I don't know about you, but I do know they'd be left with a non-virgin daughter. They want the marriage to be "real", not this long distance relationship thing you have going on. Putting myself in their shoes, I sure as heck wouldn't let my daughter lose her chastity in what is effectively an engagement, it has to be in a real marriage where they live together. 

Don't listen to the people telling you to go behind the parent's backs and find a hotel, please respect their wishes as silly as they may seem. 

act like a trout and keep your non Islamic opinions under water. 

As for what if fail etc.. He has faith in God and they are married your mentality reinforces the cultural idea that marrying a non virgin is bad whereas many of the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wives were nonvirgins not through sin of course but he did marry divorces. AS for living together they do not need to necessarily live together she can be in one place and he can be in another for the time being they are still Islamically married and do have  a real marriage I hope these cultural Ideas are gutted and filleted. When you have more then one wife in Islam each one lives in a separate home and you spend the nights with different wives separately. In his situation he may need something similar.  

Regardless

@Jawad231 why can’t you let your wife live with you though I mean I get you study but can't she live in your room or something like buy a big enough bed for the both of you times are tough but you gotta pull through. If you dorm can't you get a couples dorm. I would try to talk to your parents if you live with them. That could be a second option. Honesty if I were in your situation and I could get my wife to my place I would sleep on the floor and give her my bed if getting a bigger bed was not an option.

Edited by TryHard

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4 hours ago, TryHard said:

act like a trout and keep your non Islamic opinions under water. 

As for what if fail etc.. He has faith in God and they are married your mentality reinforces the cultural idea that marrying a non virgin is bad whereas many of the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wives were nonvirgins not through sin of course but he did marry divorces. AS for living together they do not need to necessarily live together she can be in one place and he can be in another for the time being they are still Islamically married and do have  a real marriage I hope these cultural Ideas are gutted and filleted. When you have more then one wife in Islam each one lives in a separate home and you spend the nights with different wives separately. In his situation he may need something similar.  

Regardless

@Jawad231 why can’t you let your wife live with you though I mean I get you study but can't she live in your room or something like buy a big enough bed for the both of you times are tough but you gotta pull through. If you dorm can't you get a couples dorm. I would try to talk to your parents if you live with them. That could be a second option. Honesty if I were in your situation and I could get my wife to my place I would sleep on the floor and give her my bed if getting a bigger bed was not an option.

The Netherlands' immigration system is tough. My wife can only come to the Netherlands If I (not my parents) have enough stable income. Now I have alhamdullillah enough income for myself, but it's not enough for 2 people. So I have to work, which I now can't because I full time study.

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15 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

Look at it from the parent's perspective.

Why did they agree to the marriage then? Because they saw it as a means to achieving their materialistic gains at the expense of the moral and ethical position. Let's be honest, they only married her off to him so the Immigration Process could begin.

16 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

They don't want to risk their daughter losing her virginity in vain.

She's already lost her virginity.

16 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

What if you fail in your goals? What then?

So what you're saying is that its ok to set terms and conditions for a marriage to continue? If that is the case then why agree to the marriage on moral and ethical grounds? They're entire purpose for this marriage was to get their daughter out of Pakistan, and eventually themselves. When the purpose of the action is immoral and materialistic, then whatever comes of that action is tainted regardless of whatever the outcome is. 

16 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

They want the marriage to be "real", not this long distance relationship thing you have going on.

So let the couple have sex when they do get together. They knew of the nature of the long distance relationship that it was going to be and yet they agreed to the marriage. Its not like it was a sudden thing that happened after they were married. As did the bride as well.

16 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

Putting myself in their shoes, I sure as heck wouldn't let my daughter lose her chastity in what is effectively an engagement, it has to be in a real marriage where they live together. 

So what you're saying is that you would say no to the proposal? Can't say I disagree with you on that, however that is not the route they chose to take as parents of the bride. They chose to say yes on the condition that they will all eventually end up in the Netherlands. They effectively chose to put material gains, not only for their daughter but also for themselves, ahead of the moral and ethical basis for giving your daughter's hand in marriage to someone. 

A marriage is not some concept to be toyed with as a means to a gain. Its much more than that, I've been married for almost 20 years with 2 kids and everyday there is something that comes along which requires the ability to think without prejudice regarding a variety of things good or bad. To have this spectre hanging over your head of doubting in the back of your head as to whether there is truly an emotional bond between you and your spouse is a cancer which will eat away at the marriage.

Add to that the fact, that her parents are materialistic in their thought process, so its safe to assume that they will come and live with her in the Netherlands on a permanent basis. What that means for him, is that not only has he picked up a spouse but he has inherited her family as well. As such, a good portion of his income and happiness will be spent on these additional "roommates".

17 hours ago, Guest de trout said:

Don't listen to the people telling you to go behind the parent's backs and find a hotel, please respect their wishes as silly as they may seem. 

He and his wife are married not only in Islam, but also in Pakistani Law. If they wish to go wherever and have sex, that is their choice to do so. Parents are of no matter if the husband and wife choose to do that out of their own free will. 

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