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48 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

What constitutes 'virginity' in Islamic law?

Never having have had intercourse.

 

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On 6/21/2019 at 4:34 PM, Islandsandmirrors said:

Never having have had intercourse.

Thats not true. Please state your source.

Non vigin in Islamic fiqh = someone who has lawfully lost their virginity in a marital relationship.

That means that if a girl has had secret relationships outside of a lawful marriage, she is still considered a virgin within Islamic fiqh when it comes to marriage, that means she still needs the permission of her wali before entering a marriage.

Please see point 394 in the following document:

https://www.al-Islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-Muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-Sistani/marriage

394. The consent of the father or the paternal grandfather is not required in the marriage of a non-virgin woman (that is, a girl who had previously married and had sexual intercourse). But the case of the woman who had lost her virginity because of fornication or another cause is like that of a virgin.

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On 6/21/2019 at 5:19 PM, IbnSina said:

Thats not true. Please state your source.

Non vigin in Islamic fiqh = someone who has lawfully lost their virginity in a marital relationship.

That means that if a girl has had secret relationships outside of a lawful marriage, she is still considered a virgin within Islamic fiqh when it comes to marriage, that means she still needs the permission of her wali before entering a marriage.

Please see point 394 in the following document:

https://www.al-Islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-Muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-Sistani/marriage

394. The consent of the father or the paternal grandfather is not required in the marriage of a non-virgin woman (that is, a girl who had previously married and had sexual intercourse). But the case of the woman who had lost her virginity because of fornication or another cause is like that of a virgin.

1. Sistani is not my marja. Show me proof from Ayatollah Saanei. 

2. This contradicts the Qur'an, as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says to never marry a fornicator unless they repent. Someone who fornicates is unmarried and therefore, not a virgin. A woman will need her father’s permission if she’s never been married prior, but that doesn’t mean she is a virgin. A father’s permission does not equal virginity. 

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3 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

1. Sistani is not my marja. Show me proof from Ayatollah Saanei. 

(س 568) دختر باكره اى كه بر اثر زنا بكارت خود را از دست داده است، آيا براى صيغه شدن نياز به اجازه ولىّ و پدر خود دارد يا نه؟

ج ـ چون بكارت با ازدواج از بين نرفته، در حكم باكره است و شرطيّت اجازه پدر و ولىّ، به حال خود باقى است. 

Q 586: A virgin girl lost her hymen due to fornication, does she require her guardian or father's permission to get into a temporary marriage?

A: Because the hymen was not lost due to marriage, she is still considered a virgin, and the condition of seeking permission from the father or guardian is still applicable.

Source: http://saanei.xyz/?view=01,02,09,806,0

Ayt. Saan'I has the same ruling as Ayt. Sistani

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
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8 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Non vigin in Islamic fiqh = someone who has lawfully lost their virginity in a marital relationship.

That means that if a girl has had secret relationships outside of a lawful marriage, she is still considered a virgin within Islamic fiqh when it comes to marriage, that means she still needs the permission of her wali before entering a marriage.

Isn't that a *bit* messed up though. 

A girl has intercourse before marriage so she's still a virgin? 

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7 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

Isn't that a *bit* messed up though. 

A girl has intercourse before marriage so she's still a virgin? 

Why is it messed up? Virginity is a word that we are coining for a concept or meaning that we have in mind. The word is being used to refer and define a very specific Shar'I concept for legal purposes - as per the ijtihad of the jurists. Nothing messed up about it.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
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18 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Why is it messed up? Virginity is a word that we are coining for a concept or meaning that we have in mind. The word is being used to refer and define a very specific Shar'I concept for legal purposes - as per the ijtihad of the jurists. Nothing messed up about it.

Wasalam

It's messed up because it gives virginity 2 different meanings. 

1) Literal meaning which we all know

2) A spiritual meaning of purity which has no relevance to the physical side

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35 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

It's messed up because it gives virginity 2 different meanings. 

1) Literal meaning which we all know

You are just conflating definitions. I can say we are defining loss of virginity literally as sexual intercourse through a legal marriage contract. This would mean as per our definition, sexual intercourse outside of a legal marriage contract does not constitute the loss of virginity. You can come and define it in some other way, you can link it to absolute sexual intercourse (legal marriage or fornication), or directly to the loss of the hymen (whether through marriage or accident), but you can't accuse the other of having a wrong meaning of it or that they have an incorrect understanding of it - the meanings are simply constructions, either by humans, or in this case, the argument is that it is through divine law (although if it is true that this is a definition as per religious texts, then it would not be considered a literal definition of virginity, and you would have to look at the Arabic dictionaries to see what they literally defined it as).

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
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54 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

t's messed up because it gives virginity 2 different meanings. 

1) Literal meaning which we all know

2) A spiritual meaning of purity which has no relevance to the physical side

doesnt explain why its messed up. youre not really clarifying...

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On 6/21/2019 at 9:47 PM, Islandsandmirrors said:

1. Sistani is not my marja. Show me proof from Ayatollah Saanei. 

You want me to bring you proof from YOUR marja regarding a statement which YOU have made? Its absurd that you would lay the burden of proof on me in this case.

In this case another brother kindly relayed ay Saaneis ruling on this matter and frankly its embarrasing that you would argue regarding this matter without even knowing your own marjas ruling on it first.

On what knowledge did you exactly base your statement on?

Its not the first time I see you say things regarding Islamic law and being wrong and not able to back it up, its not good and I have seen others adressing this as well in the past.

Please, if you wish to help someone who asks a question regarding Islamic fiqh, then by all means do so, its nice to help. But also make sure your not being wrong and that you have sources for what your saying, fiqh is not a topic to be taken lightly.

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1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

it hides sin that the person may have repented for. If Allah hides it, why do you want to reveal it? 

Hides sin how? 

There's only one way to check if a girl is virgin... 

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50 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You are just conflating definitions. I can say we are defining loss of virginity literally as sexual intercourse through a legal marriage contract. This would mean as per our definition, sexual intercourse outside of a legal marriage contract does not constitute the loss of virginity. You can come and define it in some other way, you can link it to absolute sexual intercourse (legal marriage or fornication), or directly to the loss of the hymen (whether through marriage or accident), but you can't accuse the other of having a wrong meaning of it or that they have an incorrect understanding of it - the meanings are simply constructions, either by humans, or in this case, the argument is that it is through divine law (although if it is true that this is a definition as per religious texts, then it would not be considered a literal definition of virginity, and you would have to look at the Arabic dictionaries to see what they literally defined it as).

Everyone knows that virginity is lost by penetrative sex. Inside marriage or outside of marriage. 

Anything which says that it's only in marriage must be referring to some spiritual virginity and not the tearing of the hymen.

Do you have any idea how weird it would sound if you told someone her hymen is torn but she is still a virgin because it was done unlawfully. 

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30 minutes ago, Ruqaya101 said:

doesnt explain why its messed up. youre not really clarifying...

I put this in a previous reply but it belongs here too. 

"Do you have any idea how weird it would sound if you told someone her hymen is torn but she is still a virgin because it was done unlawfully." 

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5 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

I put this in a previous reply but it belongs here too. 

"Do you have any idea how weird it would sound if you told someone her hymen is torn but she is still a virgin because it was done unlawfully." 

so, if her hymen tore from exercise, she isn't s virgin??

thats not the meaning of virginity though

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10 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Thats not true. Please state your source.

 

Non vigin in Islamic fiqh = someone who has lawfully lost their virginity in a marital relationship.

That means that if a girl has had secret relationships outside of a lawful marriage, she is still considered a virgin within Islamic fiqh when it comes to marriage, that means she still needs the permission of her wali before entering a marriage.

 

Please see point 394 in the following document:

https://www.al-Islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-Muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-Sistani/marriage

394. The consent of the father or the paternal grandfather is not required in the marriage of a non-virgin woman (that is, a girl who had previously married and had sexual intercourse). But the case of the woman who had lost her virginity because of fornication or another cause is like that of a virgin.

 

Being marriageable and being a virgin are not one and the same thing anyway.

Edited by Faruk
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I see you disagree about Virginity. Allah says in the Qur'an, I can see if I can find it again, to the Prophet Muhammed he'll provide him with Wifes not Virgins but clean.

 

It is therefore not important if a woman has this thing (hymen?) torn or not, it has nothing to do with purity. However, a woman should say the Truth about her self, like anyone (which people don’t I guess, but don't know) and not to "raise dust" to escape. There is nothing to escape from.

In Philosophy Virginity is related Wisdom and Generosity etc. I think it is the foundation. Being infallible like Imam Kadhim or a Monk.

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It was not the Prophet but us at 66:5: Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.

 

Remember this girls.

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1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

Hides sin how? 

There's only one way to check if a girl is virgin... 

Because it would be evident that she has had physical relationships outside of marriage in other cases.

Furthermore, if she was under her walis guardianship, even if she went against his authority once by having secret physical relationships without his approval, that does not mean she can do it again just because she has done it once before. As long as she is under the protection of her wali, the approval of the wali is required for her in order to enter a marriage.

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6 hours ago, Ali~J said:

Everyone knows that virginity is lost by penetrative sex. Inside marriage or outside of marriage. 

Anything which says that it's only in marriage must be referring to some spiritual virginity and not the tearing of the hymen.

Do you have any idea how weird it would sound if you told someone her hymen is torn but she is still a virgin because it was done unlawfully. 

brother, you have been very conditioned by culture to think like this...

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

The question was:
"What constitutes 'virginity' in Islamic law?"

What's the diffirence?

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29 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Some women do not bleed after having their hymen broken.

News flash for those who didn't know:  hymen is avascular(means it does not have blood supply) so rupture of hymen itself cannot lead to bleeding. It's a cultural thing and sheer stupidity to think of blood as a proof of tearing of hymen. As we medics sometimes say 'a big issue over a small tissue'.

Edited by starlight
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8 hours ago, IbnSina said:

ts not the first time I see you say things regarding Islamic law and being wrong and not able to back it up, its not good and I have seen others adressing this as well in the past.

Everyone knows that your virginity is lost when you have sex. Maybe the marjas define “virginity” as in a woman in need of her father’s permission having never been married before. 

Second, you have entirely ignored my statement from the Qur'an as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says to never marry a fornicator. Do you deny what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said and put someone’s ruling (a fallible person) above Allah’s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Word? 

Here’s what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has to say about this:

 

“Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden”

source:

http://corpus.Qur'an.com/translation.jsp?chapter=24&verse=3

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10 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Q 586: A virgin girl lost her hymen due to fornication, does she require her guardian or father's permission to get into a temporary marriage?

A: Because the hymen was not lost due to marriage, she is still considered a virgin, and the condition of seeking permission from the father or guardian is still applicable.

Quick question for you, just to see if I am understanding this right: If a unmarried woman who never had sex before loses her hymen because she was using a bicycle and it tore in the process, she's still a virgin, right?

Then how is she equal to an unmarried woman sleeps around with many men and fornicates to relieve herself behind her parents' backs. Virginity is defined as a lack of experience or a person who has never had sexual intercourse. The latter cannot be called a virgin in that sense. Why isn't the Islamic definition of virginity based on experience?

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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7 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

If a unmarried woman loses her hymen because she was using a bicycle and it tore in the process, she's still a virgin, right?

Yes, of course.

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1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Culturally, most people consider vaginal intercourse outside of marriage as a loss of 'virginity'. This is not the case in Islamic law. 

What are the conditions for someone to be considered a virgin according to Islamic law?

Edited by Faruk
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