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khamosh21

Monotheism in history

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This is somewhat connected to my other thread, I feel it's more if a part 2 and separate topic... and I couldn't come with a good title for this thread, some questions are not directly related...

We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who? since it's all for Him and His view is the only Real view, then God is just sadistic. It is like a child playing with 2 toys, he has made one toy figure evil, the other good, and he fights the 2 of them for his pleasure, very well knowing the final outcome... the characters I.e. us, our free wills and our actions are seemingly meaningless...

Getting to the title of my post...we should really go down to the root of the problem. We have to accept that starting from Prophet Adam, a correct monotheistic community must have been established. Or when monotheistic communities were reset after non-believers are destroyed (e.g. Prophet Nuh).

1. Historically, where is the evidence for monotheistic communities? I mean if 124,000 perfect human beings plus countless saints have walked the Earth, surely we should have seen progress, not gone the other way? Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.


2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

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We have no historical record of Nabi Ibrahim, but we might asses his existence to around 1300 bce That is roughly the time of Akhanaten whos monotheism might very well have something to do with the rise of Judaism. At least according to 2'd century bce Egyptian historian Manetho.
The oldest known Monotheist religion is Zoroastrianism. We don't know when Zarathustra lived, but the oldest parts of the Zoroastrian book Avesta is written in old Bactrian. This was a language that was spoken in what is to day eastern Afghanistan and Tajikistan in the period from 2000 bce to around 1000 bce. Bactria was one of the most important producers of copper and tin during the Bronze age as well as the gemstone Lapis lazuli. Zoroastrianism was state religion in the Achaemenid Empire of Persia, but when they was conqered by the Greeks in 330 bce, Zoroastrianism was then influenced by Greek polytheism. The Sasanian Empire from 224 to 651 AD on the other hand cleansed Zoroastrianism once again from the polytheist influences.

The belief in one God in Hinduisms goes a long way back. The Upanishads that are written in the beginning of the Iron age describes the concept of Brahman or Parameswara, the single supreme universal God. The Upanishads claim to be an extract of the Vedas which was mainly liturgical literature from the bronze age. So even in Hinduism the concept of one God is old. In Hindu literature the more than 1000 or so lesser deities is not considered as separate from God, but as avatars, manifestations, incarnations or emanations of the supreme God. This is because the supreme God is formless and infinite, so in order for humans to communicate with him he must manifest manifest himself in some form that Humans can comprehend. If you ask educated Hindus they will tell you this, though not so educated Hindus might believe something else.

In fact if you look at most religions, even polytheist religions, you will find traces of monotheism in the form of henotheism or pantheism that suggest that they has either degraded from pure monotheism or that humans have a innate natural understanding of a supreme spiritual being. A good example of this is the native American religions. Even a notorious polytheist religion such as the Grecco-Roman religion still has the concept of a fiery hell. And though it has no early records of Monotheism, Greek philosophers developed concepts of monotheism way before Christianity came into existence. Possibly under the influence of what the Greeks had learned in Persia, India, Egypt and Palestine.

Of cause you can ask why does the Qur'an only mention Prophets from the Judeo-Christian tradition and why is only Jews and Christians considered people of the book? I too think that is a very good question that I can not answer, but the Qur'an does mention that the message has been send to all people around the world through unknown Prophets before Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم وعائلته)

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6 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

We have no historical record of Nabi Ibrahim, but we might asses his existence to around 1300 bce That is roughly the time of Akhanaten whos monotheism might very well have something to do with the rise of Judaism. At least according to 2'd century bce Egyptian historian Manetho.
The oldest known Monotheist religion is Zoroastrianism. We don't know when Zarathustra lived, but the oldest parts of the Zoroastrian book Avesta is written in old Bactrian. This was a language that was spoken in what is to day eastern Afghanistan and Tajikistan in the period from 2000 bce to around 1000 bce. Bactria was one of the most important producers of copper and tin during the Bronze age as well as the gemstone Lapis lazuli. Zoroastrianism was state religion in the Achaemenid Empire of Persia, but when they was conqered by the Greeks in 330 bce, Zoroastrianism was then influenced by Greek polytheism. The Sasanian Empire from 224 to 651 AD on the other hand cleansed Zoroastrianism once again from the polytheist influences.

The belief in one God in Hinduisms goes a long way back. The Upanishads that are written in the beginning of the Iron age describes the concept of Brahman or Parameswara, the single supreme universal God. The Upanishads claim to be an extract of the Vedas which was mainly liturgical literature from the bronze age. So even in Hinduism the concept of one God is old. In Hindu literature the more than 1000 or so lesser deities is not considered as separate from God, but as avatars, manifestations, incarnations or emanations of the supreme God. This is because the supreme God is formless and infinite, so in order for humans to communicate with him he must manifest manifest himself in some form that Humans can comprehend. If you ask educated Hindus they will tell you this, though not so educated Hindus might believe something else.

In fact if you look at most religions, even polytheist religions, you will find traces of monotheism in the form of henotheism or pantheism that suggest that they has either degraded from pure monotheism or that humans have a innate natural understanding of a supreme spiritual being. A good example of this is the native American religions. Even a notorious polytheist religion such as the Grecco-Roman religion still has the concept of a fiery hell. And though it has no early records of Monotheism, Greek philosophers developed concepts of monotheism way before Christianity came into existence. Possibly under the influence of what the Greeks had learned in Persia, India, Egypt and Palestine.

Of cause you can ask why does the Qur'an only mention Prophets from the Judeo-Christian tradition and why is only Jews and Christians considered people of the book? I too think that is a very good question that I can not answer, but the Qur'an does mention that the message has been send to all people around the world through unknown Prophets before Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم وعائلته)

all this really proves then is that God isn't doing a great job of keeping His own work corruption free. does not fit with purpose of knowing Him, does not explain the concept of a khalifa on Earth. easily shows religions are man made, considering the disorganization, lack of planning, and really no sense of design and purpose or a feeling that something Divine is behind this whole failed plan.

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12 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

all this really proves then is that God isn't doing a great job of keeping His own work corruption free. does not fit with purpose of knowing Him, does not explain the concept of a khalifa on Earth. easily shows religions are man made, considering the disorganization, lack of planning, and really no sense of design and purpose or a feeling that something Divine is behind this whole failed plan.

Salam aleykoum I don't know if it is intentional but be careful because what you said is really a speech of kaffir or murtad. 

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4 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Salam aleykoum I don't know if it is intentional but be careful because what you said is really a speech of kaffir or murtad. 

speech is speech and you can call it what you like. when people don't have answers they normally resort to name calling. just answer the questions, doesn't really matter or who or where they come from

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3 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

speech is speech and you can call it what you like. when people don't have answers they normally resort to name calling. just answer the questions, doesn't really matter or who or where they come from

By saying "God don't make a great job" I have difficulties to see anything else than disbelief speech. 

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8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

Salam even ordinary people when see corruption in any collection destroy whole of it & don't separate corrupted seeds from  intact seed , also destroying of nation when happens that good people know about corruption but they don't try to stop it & just let it go that is same as doing sins by corrupted people & let corruption spreads in whole of community like spore so everybody even good people will affect by corruption that only way for fixing it it destroying all toghther ,like as we as normal human being when see corruption in a collection we understand spores of corruption spreded in whole of it but it's not visible now so we destroy whole of it for precautionary action.

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26 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

By saying "God don't make a great job" I have difficulties to see anything else than disbelief speech. 

I was born Shia and Muslim and have been practicing till now. but I can not honestly say I am a believer. I came to the realization I have never truly believed, when I said I did, I was doing it from conditioning and parroting... now I can no longer find evidence or make sense of our religion, or most religions for that matter

I want to have faith which is beyond my own imaginary ideas and speculations...

so good observation on your part, but it does not address the questions...

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20 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I was born Shia and Muslim and have been practicing till now. but I can not honestly say I am a believer. I came to the realization I have never truly believed, when I said I did, I was doing it from conditioning and parroting... now I can no longer find evidence or make sense of our religion, or most religions for that matter

I want to have faith which is beyond my own imaginary ideas and speculations...

so good observation on your part, but it does not address the questions...

May God guide you. 

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44 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam even ordinary people when see corruption in any collection destroy whole of it & don't separate corrupted seeds from  intact seed , also destroying of nation when happens that good people know about corruption but they don't try to stop it & just let it go that is same as doing sins by corrupted people & let corruption spreads in whole of community like spore so everybody even good people will affect by corruption that only way for fixing it it destroying all toghther ,like as we as normal human being when see corruption in a collection we understand spores of corruption spreded in whole of it but it's not visible now so we destroy whole of it for precautionary action.

correct. if you and I knew where the bad seed is, we would definitely get rid of it, we would not allow it to spread.

this is common sense and intelligent. what we are seeing in the world today is the exact opposite. 

 we see design and organization in the stars and galaxies evidence of an intelligent creator, please show me the same design and organization within human history and religion.

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

all this really proves then is that God isn't doing a great job of keeping His own work corruption free. does not fit with purpose of knowing Him, does not explain the concept of a khalifa on Earth.

The corruption is on many levels. It is not only in terms of the Tawheed - Shirk dichotomy. And you are right that not even Islam goes free of that. The Qur'an clearly states that Muslims should not compete with one an other in worldly matters. Then try to look at the royal family of Saudi-Arabia. They try to portray them selves as the most pious and still they gorge themselves in worldly splendor.(not to speak of all the innocent Yemenis they kill in clear violation of the Qur'an.)

Quote

easily shows religions are man made, considering the disorganization, lack of planning, and really no sense of design and purpose or a feeling that something Divine is behind this whole failed plan.

Make no mistake about it; religions are man made. This does however not mean that God does not exist. Nor does it mean that God hasn't inspired religion nor send his message to the humans whenever they went astray. God does inspire people on a personal level. God does send his guidance to whom he wishes and God has send his message to Prophets through history in order for society to have a common idea about his direction.
That being said we humans has a free will to do evil or to do good, to sin or to be pious, to act unjust or to act righteously. Corruption stem from free will. God created the angles without free will and if he was content with that he could have ended creation right there. Instead he created Adam and Hawa with the ability to sin and to go astray if they so wish. Humans beings has done that ever since. Of cause we could speculate as to Gods motives for doing that, but God is incomprehensible in his infinity, so we will not truly know. (At least not before judgement day)

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

This is somewhat connected to my other thread, I feel it's more if a part 2 and separate topic... and I couldn't come with a good title for this thread, some questions are not directly related...

We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who? since it's all for Him and His view is the only Real view, then God is just sadistic. It is like a child playing with 2 toys, he has made one toy figure evil, the other good, and he fights the 2 of them for his pleasure, very well knowing the final outcome... the characters I.e. us, our free wills and our actions are seemingly meaningless...

Getting to the title of my post...we should really go down to the root of the problem. We have to accept that starting from Prophet Adam, a correct monotheistic community must have been established. Or when monotheistic communities were reset after non-believers are destroyed (e.g. Prophet Nuh).

1. Historically, where is the evidence for monotheistic communities? I mean if 124,000 perfect human beings plus countless saints have walked the Earth, surely we should have seen progress, not gone the other way? Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.


2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

 


 

1. You delve much on one side and not on the other side. Let me tell you the history, When Adam (عليه السلام) came to this world, one of his son was killed by the other and was damned. later on, Adam got other sons and they multiplied and when one Prophet left, most of them forgot the religion and begin to earn wealth by illegal means and denied shares of his brothers. So, when the power of oppressors grew, Allah sent another Prophet and he tried to convince them but most of them denied so those who took such relaxation for granted saw their end but some obedient were saved and their children grew and among them some become obedient and some disobedient so this cycle continued. You think that God destroyed whole nation, there remained some who continued human race. It may look game to you as Allah has said in Qur'an: "The life of this world seems a playground to them". because you do not understand that God wanted to give knowledge to His creation as to what is best for them, but to us there are lessons. I do not know why you oversee this purpose.

2. Historically, we are the asset of previous nations to you, those who left this world but delegated their responsibility of today's monotheists, we are their legacy. 

3. God did not nip in the bud, because it want to show you that there is no refuge besides God and if you disbelieve in his law, you are going to be destroyed, if there were no signs before you of those who perished for their disobedience you would not have been warned. 

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10 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

1. You delve much on one side and not on the other side. Let me tell you the history, When Adam (عليه السلام) came to this world, one of his son was killed by the other and was damned. later on, Adam got other sons and they multiplied and when one Prophet left, most of them forgot the religion and begin to earn wealth by illegal means and denied shares of his brothers. So, when the power of oppressors grew, Allah sent another Prophet and he tried to convince them but most of them denied so those who took such relaxation for granted saw their end but some obedient were saved and their children grew and among them some become obedient and some disobedient so this cycle continued. You think that God destroyed whole nation, there remained some who continued human race. It may look game to you as Allah has said in Qur'an: "The life of this world seems a playground to them". because you do not understand that God wanted to give knowledge to His creation as to what is best for them, but to us there are lessons. I do not know why you oversee this purpose.

2. Historically, we are the asset of previous nations to you, those who left this world but delegated their responsibility of today's monotheists, we are their legacy. 

3. God did not nip in the bud, because it want to show you that there is no refuge besides God and if you disbelieve in his law, you are going to be destroyed, if there were no signs before you of those who perished for their disobedience you would not have been warned. 

Brother I don’t want to debate the points you have written, there are simply too many problems in what are you suggesting, I'll just ask this...

How on Earth can you prove with evidence that history took place the way you are saying? That you are not just repeating a history imagined by people who have a very high conflict of interest and bias in explaining history from their point of view...

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We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who?

He is trying to show the reality about Himself. It require all those steps to manifest. Part of them destruction, because He destroy and Punish, and part of Mercy, He Create and Give Mercy. In reality you see them all, and that it is His signs. 

Edited by Abu Nur

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

How on Earth can you prove with evidence that history took place the way you are saying? That you are not just repeating a history imagined by people who have a very high conflict of interest and bias in explaining history from their point of view... 

I think that is beside the point. Flying_Eagle's point of reference is the Qur'an and Islamic tradition. Often you can’t prove these things in detail and it is also misleading to even try. However that doesn't mean that it isn't true on a higher level. Humans has a free will to seek God or to seek the world and that I think is evident even in the world history that has been recorded by historians or dug up by archeologists.
Who says that there need to be progress. Even in Recorded history things vary. Some time the world takes two steps forward. Some times the world takes 5 steps backward. 
From a religious point of view the world is not getting better. Some of the signs that lead up to return of the Imam Mahdi and the coming of the judgement day is that the situation in the world will deteriorate fraud, killing of innocents and Zina will prevail as well as a whole lot of other unpleasant occurrences. So I don't know where you got the idea that " we should have seen progress."

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:08 AM, khamosh21 said:

This is somewhat connected to my other thread, I feel it's more if a part 2 and separate topic... and I couldn't come with a good title for this thread, some questions are not directly related...

We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who? since it's all for Him and His view is the only Real view, then God is just sadistic. It is like a child playing with 2 toys, he has made one toy figure evil, the other good, and he fights the 2 of them for his pleasure, very well knowing the final outcome... the characters I.e. us, our free wills and our actions are seemingly meaningless...

Getting to the title of my post...we should really go down to the root of the problem. We have to accept that starting from Prophet Adam, a correct monotheistic community must have been established. Or when monotheistic communities were reset after non-believers are destroyed (e.g. Prophet Nuh).

1. Historically, where is the evidence for monotheistic communities? I mean if 124,000 perfect human beings plus countless saints have walked the Earth, surely we should have seen progress, not gone the other way? Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.


2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

The history of the split between mono and poly theism is there, you just haven't read it.

From various sources: After the murder of Habeel by Kabeel, the latter was banished and forbidden to climb the mountains where the progeny of Adam and Habeel lived, as a punishment and it was also forbidden that there be marriages between the two tribes. After a few Prophets came (Anosh, Sheeth, I forget the exact names and sequence), the next one was a grandson and very young. The Prophet's throne remained empty and people would gather there anyway during this time. Its when Satan came to the community in visage of a great pious scholar and suggested to build a figure in remembrance of the beloved and sorely missed Prophet. Quickly after the figure was built a few went excessive in their praises and exaltation and crossed over to worshiping it. It culminated in conflict and crisis eventually. After some time the two clans had to mingle again and the old law was ended.

In the Qur'an the Creator repeatedly tells us of this question (roughly) 'O tribe of Adam, didn't I warn you not to follow Satan, that he is your open enemy and has lead astray and destroyed many before you? And that you should worship Me only?'

The problem is not with the Creator. The problem is with us and our understanding. He has always allowed a arguably large degree of freedom to His creatures in this life. Before with Jinn, it is written in the book of Tabari that after each 30,000 years the community of Jinn on this planet would see an overwhelming majority of corrupt in them who overcame the righteous and as a response angels would be sent to Earth to create a balance again.

Taking into account all the history we can conclude that the Creator wishes proper opportunity for all its creatures in this life so they can be tested and only intervenes when His plan and the balance that provides opportunity to do good to the creatures is threatened enough. Because this life and this planet is nothing but a place for testing the creatures. To Him this life and what we call death mean nothing and He chooses the real reward and punishment which is in the afterlife. And He is so benevolent that He feeds and allows all kinds of bounty in ample quantities to the unbelievers in this life so that they have no share in the next one (ref: Kitab Sulaym and others). For punishment He literally has all eternities available to Him and means unthinkable to us for now.

The Hindus are not a martial race, to say the least, nor has their civilization made a name in science or made any remarkable mark on the world in history. Their crime is polytheism, yes. But then the whole human race does all sorts of crime. That is not how it works, I repeat it is us who need to study and understand our Creator a lot more for our own sake.

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On 6/17/2019 at 5:08 PM, khamosh21 said:

This is somewhat connected to my other thread, I feel it's more if a part 2 and separate topic... and I couldn't come with a good title for this thread, some questions are not directly related...

We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who? since it's all for Him and His view is the only Real view, then God is just sadistic. It is like a child playing with 2 toys, he has made one toy figure evil, the other good, and he fights the 2 of them for his pleasure, very well knowing the final outcome... the characters I.e. us, our free wills and our actions are seemingly meaningless...

Getting to the title of my post...we should really go down to the root of the problem. We have to accept that starting from Prophet Adam, a correct monotheistic community must have been established. Or when monotheistic communities were reset after non-believers are destroyed (e.g. Prophet Nuh).

1. Historically, where is the evidence for monotheistic communities? I mean if 124,000 perfect human beings plus countless saints have walked the Earth, surely we should have seen progress, not gone the other way? Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.


2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

As has been already mentioned in the previous posts written by other members on this thread:  the fact that there is One absolute reality is universal and ubiquitous.  In fact, when properly and seriously investigated, other religious nations such as Hinduism, the Native American Religion, and Buddhism only go to prove the universality of this Principle of Oneness.  

 

 

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7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Brother I don’t want to debate the points you have written, there are simply too many problems in what are you suggesting, I'll just ask this...

How on Earth can you prove with evidence that history took place the way you are saying? That you are not just repeating a history imagined by people who have a very high conflict of interest and bias in explaining history from their point of view...

Brother, if you do not want to debate why have you made a post in the first instance ? I am just giving you brief of what you have ignored and it is not that my answer that is problematic, its your question that is limited to one part and ignores all other aspects, You are right, there is too much details to be discussed but for that you do not have much time as you have said that you are not here for debate.

From truthful sources that are Prophets and coherence into their teachings and from scriptures and coherence among them. While you have got no proof for your views that they are correct from a recognized known truthful person but humans who have lied and who have made mistakes, My belief and my history has backup of infallible Prophets and their quotes and remarks of their enemies suggest that they were truthful and honest.

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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On 6/19/2019 at 7:50 AM, eThErEaL said:

As has been already mentioned in the previous posts written by other members on this thread:  the fact that there is One absolute reality is universal and ubiquitous.  In fact, when properly and seriously investigated, other religious nations such as Hinduism, the Native American Religion, and Buddhism only go to prove the universality of this Principle of Oneness.  

 

 

Surah Ar-Room, Verse 42:
قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلُ كَانَ أَكْثَرُهُم مُّشْرِكِينَ

Say: Travel in the land, then see how was the end of those before; most of them were polytheists.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

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9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Surah Ar-Room, Verse 42:
قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلُ كَانَ أَكْثَرُهُم مُّشْرِكِينَ

Say: Travel in the land, then see how was the end of those before; most of them were polytheists.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

Alright.  So are you saying the Qur'an is wrong?  

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Alright.  So are you saying the Qur'an is wrong?  

Im using this verse in the way Shias use Sunni hadith, Muslims use the bible, to show from your own book you are wrong. I am saying you are wrong in this concept of historical monotheism, the Qur'an doesn't even with agree you! your basis for such thinking is because you can’t reconcile your concepts, and have borrowed them from everywhere to create a more sensible version of history and the world.

if we consider the Qur'an as made from the mind of Prophet Muhammad, it becomes very clear why these contradictions occur.

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:08 AM, khamosh21 said:

uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

:bismillah:

Surah Nuh, Verse 26:
وَقَالَ نُوحٌ رَّبِّ لَا تَذَرْ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ دَيَّارًا

And Nuh said: My Lord! leave not upon the land any dweller from among the unbelievers:
(English - Shakir)

Surah Nuh, Verse 27:
إِنَّكَ إِن تَذَرْهُمْ يُضِلُّوا عِبَادَكَ وَلَا يَلِدُوا إِلَّا فَاجِرًا كَفَّارًا

For surely if Thou leave them they will lead astray Thy servants, and will not beget any but immoral, ungrateful (children)
(English - Shakir)

This is the example of a Prophet (Nuh (عليه السلام)) who existed well before Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام)

11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Surah Ar-Room, Verse 42:
قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلُ كَانَ أَكْثَرُهُم مُّشْرِكِينَ

Say: Travel in the land, then see how was the end of those before; most of them were polytheists.
(English - Shakir)

There is a difference between kufr & shirk. Shirk can be done after believing in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

Surah Yusuf, Verse 106:
وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُم بِاللَّهِ إِلَّا وَهُم مُّشْرِكُونَ

And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

The cause of destruction of different nations was not limited to shirk. Lets see few more verses of the same theme which you have shared:

Surah Al-Ankaboot, Verse 19:
أَوَلَمْ يَرَوْا كَيْفَ يُبْدِئُ اللَّهُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ إِنَّ ذَٰلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرٌ

What! do they not consider how Allah originates the creation, then reproduces it? Surely that is easy to Allah.
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Naml, Verse 69:
قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُجْرِمِينَ

Say: Travel in the Earth, then see how was the end of the guilty.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 11:
قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ ثُمَّ انظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ

Say: Travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.
(English - Shakir)

 

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

if we consider the Qur'an as made from the mind of Prophet Muhammad, it becomes very clear why these contradictions occur.

Some times ignorance reflects from the way we question. I don't know why people not look at the simple verses & try to ponder instead of expressing their disbelief or kufr.

On 6/18/2019 at 2:08 AM, khamosh21 said:

Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.

Your claim #1 "Historically men were idol worshippers". 

Who was the very first modern human on Earth? Was he or his family were idol worshipers?

2. God neither forgets nor does He err. For every nation there was a guide according to Qur'an. Now tell me how many Gods does Hindu believes in? 

3. Evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim:

Start from Adam (عليه السلام) and go to Prophet Nuh (عليه السلام), then from him to Prophet Musa (عليه السلام), those who were monotheist continued to submit to the command of their Lord and believed in the Prophets sent by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

On 6/18/2019 at 2:08 AM, khamosh21 said:

. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

Note down the policy statement in the following verses, although what you are saying was said by Prophet Nuh, see the verses of chapter 71 for further information:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 17:
وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا مِنَ الْقُرُونِ مِن بَعْدِ نُوحٍ وَكَفَىٰ بِرَبِّكَ بِذُنُوبِ عِبَادِهِ خَبِيرًا بَصِيرًا

And how many of the generations did We destroy after Nuh! and your Lord is sufficient as Knowing and Seeing with regard to His servants' faults.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 18:
مَّن كَانَ يُرِيدُ الْعَاجِلَةَ عَجَّلْنَا لَهُ فِيهَا مَا نَشَاءُ لِمَن نُّرِيدُ ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَا لَهُ جَهَنَّمَ يَصْلَاهَا مَذْمُومًا مَّدْحُورًا

Whoever desires this present life, We hasten to him therein what We please for whomsoever We desire, then We assign to him the hell; he shall enter it despised, driven away.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 19:
وَمَنْ أَرَادَ الْآخِرَةَ وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُم مَّشْكُورًا

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 20:
كُلًّا نُّمِدُّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ وَهَٰؤُلَاءِ مِنْ عَطَاءِ رَبِّكَ وَمَا كَانَ عَطَاءُ رَبِّكَ مَحْظُورًا

All do We aid-- these as well as those-- out of the bounty of your Lord, and the bounty of your Lord is not confined.
(English - Shakir)

 

Edited by Cool

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Im using this verse in the way Shias use Sunni hadith, Muslims use the bible, to show from your own book you are wrong. I am saying you are wrong in this concept of historical monotheism, the Qur'an doesn't even with agree you! your basis for such thinking is because you can’t reconcile your concepts, and have borrowed them from everywhere to create a more sensible version of history and the world.

I am wrong?  Alright.  :)

so no need for us speak anymore. 

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

what about our other thread..  sura sajda???? is this normal, u drop out in middle of convos?

Yes.  I drop out when I find it to be not worth my time.  After all I am only here replying to people because of selfish reasons not really because I think anyone here will benefit from me (if people benefit then Alhamdulillah, if people don’t benefit, Alhamdulillah).  

So when you articulate your “arguments” in the way you do, I immediately disregard it.

Edited by eThErEaL

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39 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  I drop out when I find it to be not worth my time.  After all I am only here replying to people because of selfish reasons not really because I think anyone here will benefit from me (if people benefit then Alhamdulillah, if people don’t benefit, Alhamdulillah).  

So when you articulate your “arguments” in the way you do, I immediately disregard it.

sure brother that's totally understandable. its just that in the other thread you said you were going to do wudu and thats why it was taking time for you to get back to me etc etc I just thought you were a man of your word... pls spend your time as you wish brother and take it easy, your ego seems hurt and you sound way to upset. 

 

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15 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

sure brother that's totally understandable. its just that in the other thread you said you were going to do wudu and thats why it was taking time for you to get back to me etc etc I just thought you were a man of your word...

Yes.  I was going to do that...But seeing the way you are writing here made feel like it would be a bad investment to actually respond to the other thread.  

Quote

your ego seems hurt and you sound way to upset. 

Alright... so you see me as being  very very upset and hurt.   Good to know.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  I was going to do that...But seeing the way you are writing here made feel like it would be a bad investment to actually respond to the other thread. 

Fair enough, thanks for the time you have taken to write replies.

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13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I am saying you are wrong in this concept of historical monotheism, the Qur'an doesn't even with agree you!

:bismillah:

Quote

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنْذِرِينَ وَأَنْزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ ۚ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ فَهَدَى اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {213}

[Shakir 2:213] (All) people are a single nation; so Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear arguments had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.
[Pickthal 2:213] Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
[Yusufali 2:213] Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.

 

13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

your basis for such thinking is because you can’t reconcile your concepts, and have borrowed them from everywhere to create a more sensible version of history and the world.

وَمَا كَانَ النَّاسُ إِلَّا أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَاخْتَلَفُوا ۚ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةٌ سَبَقَتْ مِنْ رَبِّكَ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ فِيمَا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ {19}

[Shakir 10:19] And people are naught but a single nation, so they disagree; and had not a word already gone forth from your Lord, the matter would have certainly been decided between them in respect of that concerning which they disagree.
[Pickthal 10:19] Mankind were but one community; then they differed; and had it not been for a word that had already gone forth from thy Lord it had been judged between them in respect of that wherein they differ.
[Yusufali 10:19] Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.

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12 hours ago, Cool said:

Some times ignorance reflects from the way we question. I don't know why people not look at the simple verses & try to ponder instead of expressing their disbelief or kufr.

Your claim #1 "Historically men were idol worshippers". 

Who was the very first modern human on Earth? Was he or his family were idol worshipers?

2. God neither forgets nor does He err. For every nation there was a guide according to Qur'an. Now tell me how many Gods does Hindu believes in? 

3. Evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim:

Start from Adam (عليه السلام) and go to Prophet Nuh (عليه السلام), then from him to Prophet Musa (عليه السلام), those who were monotheist continued to submit to the command of their Lord and believed in the Prophets sent by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Note down the policy statement in the following verses, although what you are saying was said by Prophet Nuh, see the verses of chapter 71 for further information:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 17:
وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا مِنَ الْقُرُونِ مِن بَعْدِ نُوحٍ وَكَفَىٰ بِرَبِّكَ بِذُنُوبِ عِبَادِهِ خَبِيرًا بَصِيرًا

And how many of the generations did We destroy after Nuh! and your Lord is sufficient as Knowing and Seeing with regard to His servants' faults.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 18:
مَّن كَانَ يُرِيدُ الْعَاجِلَةَ عَجَّلْنَا لَهُ فِيهَا مَا نَشَاءُ لِمَن نُّرِيدُ ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَا لَهُ جَهَنَّمَ يَصْلَاهَا مَذْمُومًا مَّدْحُورًا

Whoever desires this present life, We hasten to him therein what We please for whomsoever We desire, then We assign to him the hell; he shall enter it despised, driven away.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 19:
وَمَنْ أَرَادَ الْآخِرَةَ وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُم مَّشْكُورًا

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 20:
كُلًّا نُّمِدُّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ وَهَٰؤُلَاءِ مِنْ عَطَاءِ رَبِّكَ وَمَا كَانَ عَطَاءُ رَبِّكَ مَحْظُورًا

All do We aid-- these as well as those-- out of the bounty of your Lord, and the bounty of your Lord is not confined.
(English - Shakir)

 

let me clarify what I mean by evidence. Everything you have posted is Quranic evidence, and on it's own it can't be verified. For example there is no way to prove a people by the name of Adam and Hawa were teleported to Earth, you have to have faith in it. This discussion isn't faith based, pretend you're talking to an athiest. (side note, did you know Allama Tabatabai in tafsir al mizan states we are born from halal incest between Adam's first borns? Because God can make halal or haram whatever he likes and whenever he likes).

 

The type of evidence of pagan worship I can give an example of which has no doubts:

1. Pyramids

2. Temples for sacrifice and idols

3. Written histories of worldwide communities based on research.

These are few examples.

edit: number 3 does have doubts, written histories can be wrong!

Edited by khamosh21

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:56 AM, khamosh21 said:

correct. if you and I knew where the bad seed is, we would definitely get rid of it, we would not allow it to spread.

this is common sense and intelligent. what we are seeing in the world today is the exact opposite. 

 we see design and organization in the stars and galaxies evidence of an intelligent creator, please show me the same design and organization within human history and religion.

You need to note that we human beings have free will, we are alive, whats the point lf this free will if everyone beleived in Islam? Allah(stw) gave the power of free will to obey or not, this is why you will find imperfections within us.

As for nature being organised well ofcourse, it is , does nature have free will? I don’t think so, it obeys every command from Allah(stw) so it is all well designed.

 

Also an argument which you made in another place was that these religions are all corrupted and did not establish a khalifah on this Earth ,thus this religion is false.

My question is: since when did Allah(stw) say that he will preserve other scriptures like the bible or torah, he only said that about the Qur'an so ofcourse the other religions got corrupted it was about time, while with the Qur'an that isn't the case.

Also since when did Allah(stw) say that this world is heaven? Ofcourse this world will have imperfections and corruption.

Edited by HusseinAbbas

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