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In the Name of God بسم الله

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This is somewhat connected to my other thread, I feel it's more if a part 2 and separate topic... and I couldn't come with a good title for this thread, some questions are not directly related...

We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who? since it's all for Him and His view is the only Real view, then God is just sadistic. It is like a child playing with 2 toys, he has made one toy figure evil, the other good, and he fights the 2 of them for his pleasure, very well knowing the final outcome... the characters I.e. us, our free wills and our actions are seemingly meaningless...

Getting to the title of my post...we should really go down to the root of the problem. We have to accept that starting from Prophet Adam, a correct monotheistic community must have been established. Or when monotheistic communities were reset after non-believers are destroyed (e.g. Prophet Nuh).

1. Historically, where is the evidence for monotheistic communities? I mean if 124,000 perfect human beings plus countless saints have walked the Earth, surely we should have seen progress, not gone the other way? Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.


2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

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We have no historical record of Nabi Ibrahim, but we might asses his existence to around 1300 bce That is roughly the time of Akhanaten whos monotheism might very well have something to do with the rise of Judaism. At least according to 2'd century bce Egyptian historian Manetho.
The oldest known Monotheist religion is Zoroastrianism. We don't know when Zarathustra lived, but the oldest parts of the Zoroastrian book Avesta is written in old Bactrian. This was a language that was spoken in what is to day eastern Afghanistan and Tajikistan in the period from 2000 bce to around 1000 bce. Bactria was one of the most important producers of copper and tin during the Bronze age as well as the gemstone Lapis lazuli. Zoroastrianism was state religion in the Achaemenid Empire of Persia, but when they was conqered by the Greeks in 330 bce, Zoroastrianism was then influenced by Greek polytheism. The Sasanian Empire from 224 to 651 AD on the other hand cleansed Zoroastrianism once again from the polytheist influences.

The belief in one God in Hinduisms goes a long way back. The Upanishads that are written in the beginning of the Iron age describes the concept of Brahman or Parameswara, the single supreme universal God. The Upanishads claim to be an extract of the Vedas which was mainly liturgical literature from the bronze age. So even in Hinduism the concept of one God is old. In Hindu literature the more than 1000 or so lesser deities is not considered as separate from God, but as avatars, manifestations, incarnations or emanations of the supreme God. This is because the supreme God is formless and infinite, so in order for humans to communicate with him he must manifest manifest himself in some form that Humans can comprehend. If you ask educated Hindus they will tell you this, though not so educated Hindus might believe something else.

In fact if you look at most religions, even polytheist religions, you will find traces of monotheism in the form of henotheism or pantheism that suggest that they has either degraded from pure monotheism or that humans have a innate natural understanding of a supreme spiritual being. A good example of this is the native American religions. Even a notorious polytheist religion such as the Grecco-Roman religion still has the concept of a fiery hell. And though it has no early records of Monotheism, Greek philosophers developed concepts of monotheism way before Christianity came into existence. Possibly under the influence of what the Greeks had learned in Persia, India, Egypt and Palestine.

Of cause you can ask why does the Qur'an only mention Prophets from the Judeo-Christian tradition and why is only Jews and Christians considered people of the book? I too think that is a very good question that I can not answer, but the Qur'an does mention that the message has been send to all people around the world through unknown Prophets before Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم وعائلته)

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6 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

We have no historical record of Nabi Ibrahim, but we might asses his existence to around 1300 bce That is roughly the time of Akhanaten whos monotheism might very well have something to do with the rise of Judaism. At least according to 2'd century bce Egyptian historian Manetho.
The oldest known Monotheist religion is Zoroastrianism. We don't know when Zarathustra lived, but the oldest parts of the Zoroastrian book Avesta is written in old Bactrian. This was a language that was spoken in what is to day eastern Afghanistan and Tajikistan in the period from 2000 bce to around 1000 bce. Bactria was one of the most important producers of copper and tin during the Bronze age as well as the gemstone Lapis lazuli. Zoroastrianism was state religion in the Achaemenid Empire of Persia, but when they was conqered by the Greeks in 330 bce, Zoroastrianism was then influenced by Greek polytheism. The Sasanian Empire from 224 to 651 AD on the other hand cleansed Zoroastrianism once again from the polytheist influences.

The belief in one God in Hinduisms goes a long way back. The Upanishads that are written in the beginning of the Iron age describes the concept of Brahman or Parameswara, the single supreme universal God. The Upanishads claim to be an extract of the Vedas which was mainly liturgical literature from the bronze age. So even in Hinduism the concept of one God is old. In Hindu literature the more than 1000 or so lesser deities is not considered as separate from God, but as avatars, manifestations, incarnations or emanations of the supreme God. This is because the supreme God is formless and infinite, so in order for humans to communicate with him he must manifest manifest himself in some form that Humans can comprehend. If you ask educated Hindus they will tell you this, though not so educated Hindus might believe something else.

In fact if you look at most religions, even polytheist religions, you will find traces of monotheism in the form of henotheism or pantheism that suggest that they has either degraded from pure monotheism or that humans have a innate natural understanding of a supreme spiritual being. A good example of this is the native American religions. Even a notorious polytheist religion such as the Grecco-Roman religion still has the concept of a fiery hell. And though it has no early records of Monotheism, Greek philosophers developed concepts of monotheism way before Christianity came into existence. Possibly under the influence of what the Greeks had learned in Persia, India, Egypt and Palestine.

Of cause you can ask why does the Qur'an only mention Prophets from the Judeo-Christian tradition and why is only Jews and Christians considered people of the book? I too think that is a very good question that I can not answer, but the Qur'an does mention that the message has been send to all people around the world through unknown Prophets before Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم وعائلته)

all this really proves then is that God isn't doing a great job of keeping His own work corruption free. does not fit with purpose of knowing Him, does not explain the concept of a khalifa on Earth. easily shows religions are man made, considering the disorganization, lack of planning, and really no sense of design and purpose or a feeling that something Divine is behind this whole failed plan.

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12 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

all this really proves then is that God isn't doing a great job of keeping His own work corruption free. does not fit with purpose of knowing Him, does not explain the concept of a khalifa on Earth. easily shows religions are man made, considering the disorganization, lack of planning, and really no sense of design and purpose or a feeling that something Divine is behind this whole failed plan.

Salam aleykoum I don't know if it is intentional but be careful because what you said is really a speech of kaffir or murtad. 

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4 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Salam aleykoum I don't know if it is intentional but be careful because what you said is really a speech of kaffir or murtad. 

speech is speech and you can call it what you like. when people don't have answers they normally resort to name calling. just answer the questions, doesn't really matter or who or where they come from

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3 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

speech is speech and you can call it what you like. when people don't have answers they normally resort to name calling. just answer the questions, doesn't really matter or who or where they come from

By saying "God don't make a great job" I have difficulties to see anything else than disbelief speech. 

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8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

Salam even ordinary people when see corruption in any collection destroy whole of it & don't separate corrupted seeds from  intact seed , also destroying of nation when happens that good people know about corruption but they don't try to stop it & just let it go that is same as doing sins by corrupted people & let corruption spreads in whole of community like spore so everybody even good people will affect by corruption that only way for fixing it it destroying all toghther ,like as we as normal human being when see corruption in a collection we understand spores of corruption spreded in whole of it but it's not visible now so we destroy whole of it for precautionary action.

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26 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

By saying "God don't make a great job" I have difficulties to see anything else than disbelief speech. 

I was born Shia and Muslim and have been practicing till now. but I can not honestly say I am a believer. I came to the realization I have never truly believed, when I said I did, I was doing it from conditioning and parroting... now I can no longer find evidence or make sense of our religion, or most religions for that matter

I want to have faith which is beyond my own imaginary ideas and speculations...

so good observation on your part, but it does not address the questions...

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20 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I was born Shia and Muslim and have been practicing till now. but I can not honestly say I am a believer. I came to the realization I have never truly believed, when I said I did, I was doing it from conditioning and parroting... now I can no longer find evidence or make sense of our religion, or most religions for that matter

I want to have faith which is beyond my own imaginary ideas and speculations...

so good observation on your part, but it does not address the questions...

May God guide you. 

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44 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam even ordinary people when see corruption in any collection destroy whole of it & don't separate corrupted seeds from  intact seed , also destroying of nation when happens that good people know about corruption but they don't try to stop it & just let it go that is same as doing sins by corrupted people & let corruption spreads in whole of community like spore so everybody even good people will affect by corruption that only way for fixing it it destroying all toghther ,like as we as normal human being when see corruption in a collection we understand spores of corruption spreded in whole of it but it's not visible now so we destroy whole of it for precautionary action.

correct. if you and I knew where the bad seed is, we would definitely get rid of it, we would not allow it to spread.

this is common sense and intelligent. what we are seeing in the world today is the exact opposite. 

 we see design and organization in the stars and galaxies evidence of an intelligent creator, please show me the same design and organization within human history and religion.

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

all this really proves then is that God isn't doing a great job of keeping His own work corruption free. does not fit with purpose of knowing Him, does not explain the concept of a khalifa on Earth.

The corruption is on many levels. It is not only in terms of the Tawheed - Shirk dichotomy. And you are right that not even Islam goes free of that. The Qur'an clearly states that Muslims should not compete with one an other in worldly matters. Then try to look at the royal family of Saudi-Arabia. They try to portray them selves as the most pious and still they gorge themselves in worldly splendor.(not to speak of all the innocent Yemenis they kill in clear violation of the Qur'an.)

Quote

easily shows religions are man made, considering the disorganization, lack of planning, and really no sense of design and purpose or a feeling that something Divine is behind this whole failed plan.

Make no mistake about it; religions are man made. This does however not mean that God does not exist. Nor does it mean that God hasn't inspired religion nor send his message to the humans whenever they went astray. God does inspire people on a personal level. God does send his guidance to whom he wishes and God has send his message to Prophets through history in order for society to have a common idea about his direction.
That being said we humans has a free will to do evil or to do good, to sin or to be pious, to act unjust or to act righteously. Corruption stem from free will. God created the angles without free will and if he was content with that he could have ended creation right there. Instead he created Adam and Hawa with the ability to sin and to go astray if they so wish. Humans beings has done that ever since. Of cause we could speculate as to Gods motives for doing that, but God is incomprehensible in his infinity, so we will not truly know. (At least not before judgement day)

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

This is somewhat connected to my other thread, I feel it's more if a part 2 and separate topic... and I couldn't come with a good title for this thread, some questions are not directly related...

We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who? since it's all for Him and His view is the only Real view, then God is just sadistic. It is like a child playing with 2 toys, he has made one toy figure evil, the other good, and he fights the 2 of them for his pleasure, very well knowing the final outcome... the characters I.e. us, our free wills and our actions are seemingly meaningless...

Getting to the title of my post...we should really go down to the root of the problem. We have to accept that starting from Prophet Adam, a correct monotheistic community must have been established. Or when monotheistic communities were reset after non-believers are destroyed (e.g. Prophet Nuh).

1. Historically, where is the evidence for monotheistic communities? I mean if 124,000 perfect human beings plus countless saints have walked the Earth, surely we should have seen progress, not gone the other way? Where is the evidence of strong monotheistic communities before Ibrahim? Also of all idol worshipping nations selectively destroyed by God, Hinduism seems to be doing just fine well over thousands of years? Did God forget a Prophet to them or did decide not to destroy them? and if anything, all the pyramids and history found seems to show the exact opposite, historically men were idol worshippers, not monotheistic.


2. At some point we have to assume 1 or more individuals started not believing or becoming corrupt within a pure community. which eventually evolved to entire nations of non-believers or pagans... eventually God had to send a Prophet to this devolved community to try and correct them... when all else failed God just wiped them out... uh, dear God, rather than tormenting generations of your own creation, why did you not nip it in the bud and destroy the very bad seed that become corrupt? is it fair to destroy a nation when you could have dealt with 1 person?

 


 

1. You delve much on one side and not on the other side. Let me tell you the history, When Adam (عليه السلام) came to this world, one of his son was killed by the other and was damned. later on, Adam got other sons and they multiplied and when one Prophet left, most of them forgot the religion and begin to earn wealth by illegal means and denied shares of his brothers. So, when the power of oppressors grew, Allah sent another Prophet and he tried to convince them but most of them denied so those who took such relaxation for granted saw their end but some obedient were saved and their children grew and among them some become obedient and some disobedient so this cycle continued. You think that God destroyed whole nation, there remained some who continued human race. It may look game to you as Allah has said in Qur'an: "The life of this world seems a playground to them". because you do not understand that God wanted to give knowledge to His creation as to what is best for them, but to us there are lessons. I do not know why you oversee this purpose.

2. Historically, we are the asset of previous nations to you, those who left this world but delegated their responsibility of today's monotheists, we are their legacy. 

3. God did not nip in the bud, because it want to show you that there is no refuge besides God and if you disbelieve in his law, you are going to be destroyed, if there were no signs before you of those who perished for their disobedience you would not have been warned. 

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10 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

1. You delve much on one side and not on the other side. Let me tell you the history, When Adam (عليه السلام) came to this world, one of his son was killed by the other and was damned. later on, Adam got other sons and they multiplied and when one Prophet left, most of them forgot the religion and begin to earn wealth by illegal means and denied shares of his brothers. So, when the power of oppressors grew, Allah sent another Prophet and he tried to convince them but most of them denied so those who took such relaxation for granted saw their end but some obedient were saved and their children grew and among them some become obedient and some disobedient so this cycle continued. You think that God destroyed whole nation, there remained some who continued human race. It may look game to you as Allah has said in Qur'an: "The life of this world seems a playground to them". because you do not understand that God wanted to give knowledge to His creation as to what is best for them, but to us there are lessons. I do not know why you oversee this purpose.

2. Historically, we are the asset of previous nations to you, those who left this world but delegated their responsibility of today's monotheists, we are their legacy. 

3. God did not nip in the bud, because it want to show you that there is no refuge besides God and if you disbelieve in his law, you are going to be destroyed, if there were no signs before you of those who perished for their disobedience you would not have been warned. 

Brother I don’t want to debate the points you have written, there are simply too many problems in what are you suggesting, I'll just ask this...

How on Earth can you prove with evidence that history took place the way you are saying? That you are not just repeating a history imagined by people who have a very high conflict of interest and bias in explaining history from their point of view...

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We accept that God knows the exact impact of every action. we could then say God very well knew e.g that sending Ad or x community to his people will most definitely result in their destruction... so what is God trying to prove here and to who?

He is trying to show the reality about Himself. It require all those steps to manifest. Part of them destruction, because He destroy and Punish, and part of Mercy, He Create and Give Mercy. In reality you see them all, and that it is His signs. 

Edited by Abu Nur

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

How on Earth can you prove with evidence that history took place the way you are saying? That you are not just repeating a history imagined by people who have a very high conflict of interest and bias in explaining history from their point of view... 

I think that is beside the point. Flying_Eagle's point of reference is the Qur'an and Islamic tradition. Often you can’t prove these things in detail and it is also misleading to even try. However that doesn't mean that it isn't true on a higher level. Humans has a free will to seek God or to seek the world and that I think is evident even in the world history that has been recorded by historians or dug up by archeologists.
Who says that there need to be progress. Even in Recorded history things vary. Some time the world takes two steps forward. Some times the world takes 5 steps backward. 
From a religious point of view the world is not getting better. Some of the signs that lead up to return of the Imam Mahdi and the coming of the judgement day is that the situation in the world will deteriorate fraud, killing of innocents and Zina will prevail as well as a whole lot of other unpleasant occurrences. So I don't know where you got the idea that " we should have seen progress."

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