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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

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23 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Free will.
God makes clear. Some people don't like to see clear.

you say that as free will is some kind of independent super power from God. What is free will? what is choice? are free will and choices are only a result of our experiences, our experiences are generated by Allah. 

Also why did God give us free will if leads to our destruction? Also this free will is being forced and blackmailed into submission with threats of pain and hell... this does not sound Eternal, Divine, or spiritual... 

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14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

you say that as free will is some kind of independent super power from God. What is free will? what is choice? are free will and choices are only a result of our experiences, our experiences are generated by Allah. 

If our experiences fully determine our choices then free will is an illusion and there is no such thing as moral responsibility or obligation.  Then it would be wrong to blame Saddam, Hitler etc for what they did!  So our experiences don't fully determine our choices.

14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Also why did God give us free will if leads to our destruction? Also this free will is being forced and blackmailed into submission with threats of pain and hell... this does not sound Eternal, Divine, or spiritual

 He gave us free will because its valuable- it means that we aren't robots.  And it gives us the opportunity to freely choose good.  A necessary side effect of this is that some people freely choose evil, but thats just what happens if there is true free will.  God shouldn't be blackmailed into not creating free creatures just because some would choose evil.

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14 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

If our experiences fully determine our choices then free will is an illusion and there is no such thing as moral responsibility or obligation.  Then it would be wrong to blame Saddam, Hitler etc for what they did!  So our experiences don't fully determine our choices.

 He gave us free will because its valuable- it means that we aren't robots.  And it gives us the opportunity to freely choose good.  A necessary side effect of this is that some people freely choose evil, but thats just what happens if there is true free will.  God shouldn't be blackmailed into not creating free creatures just because some would choose evil.

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

Your 2nd paragraph...

True free will in this sense would only be fair if we also had full and complete knowledge, and that includes hard evidence for the unseen, or the some of the same knowledge, not spoken knowledge, but that of the unseen that the Prophets had.

Why? Take our material life as an example. My ability as a child or teenager to SEE successful adults helps me in making better decisions. By seeing adults, doesn't mean my life is no longer challenging or that I don't have to do anything. I still need to study, work hard, make right choices BECOME that successful person applying my free will... I could choose to not do that and be loser, but this would be with full knowledge as well. Knowing the harm or benefit of something doesn't necessarily mean we will act accordingly (eg. cigarettes and drugs).

In religion, we don't actually see heaven or hell, or even the unseen effects of our good and bad actions... we don't see the successful adults like in material life. had I seen the reality of sins, and the benefits of good actions, that would be true free will... I would then be able to build myself into a human being, do the tazkiya and see my own progress happening... there would be no doubt... and we would actually create a world that Allah supposedly also wants. Not knowing I.e having to believe, not actually know, the unseen, is a hindrance not help from God.

Claiming heaven and hell exist without any proof of their existence is blackmail.

Or my brother maybe you can explain the wisdom behind keeping certain knowledge (unseen) hidden from us, while allowing others from birth to have it?

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Guest de trout

God takes you exactly where you want to go. If you want to get closer to him then he will guide you towards him, if you want to be a kaffir then he'll guide you away. You will always have the choice.

11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

Any injustice comes from the free will of his creation. People love to blame God for all the atrocities of the world, but I don't see them risking their lives to fight characters like hitler. We could easily end world hunger, America alone could fund everything and it wouldn't put a dent in their piggy bank, but they don't. Or a better choice of word would be they won't. Why are third world countries even in the state that they are? Because God is unfair? Or because the british empire colonized them and sucked them dry like a leech? Or because America drags countries into wars to plunder their oil? God gave us freewill, He gave us a plane to exercise it in, and after gloriously screwing it up we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

Who said there's no evidence of Hell? You think everyone here prays 5 times a day on a gamble? There are books dedicated to proving the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) really was who he said he was, and if that is true, then ipso facto, there is a Hell. Look at his predictions that at his time were seemingly completely random and hurt his case from how crazy they sounded. Just imagine what the people around him thought when he said people will talk to objects and dig holes through mountains.

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Interesting questions,

Q:1 : - It is straight forward no need to answer.

Q:2: - God gave him choice to choose heaven or hell, it does not matter to God what he answers because what he chooses would be beneficial or harmful for him and not to God. However, sending guidance is helping and God does not leave anyone without it and if someone does not listen to what Prophet says, it is really his choice. There can be various reasons for God not helping him more:

        a) God has already fixed that he has given him intelligence and guidance, it, therefore, gives him control on himself to choose what he likes.

        b) God would not interfere in his choices and force him to accept what God likes because if God does that then what is point of giving them authority to choose between good and                  bad and Rewards and Punishments. 

       c) God may not help him to choose for Him because he would want to show to his creation what is result of those who chooses other than Him.

Q:3: - God did the necessary part for satisfying both physical and spiritual needs of his creation, for physical he provides food and for spiritual, he provides guidance through Prophets.

Human is held responsible because he is granted the quality of choice between good and bad. He is responsible because he has authority to choose good for him and if he chooses bad for him, he is to get punishment, God does not exercises his choices. So for what he does, he is responsible not God. Perhaps you may say that God created him, creating something does not define that inventor did wrong, it depends upon user such as Knife is used for both cutting vegetables and slitting a throat, so the blacksmith will not be questioned abouts its use but the one who uses it. 

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Interesting questions,

Q:1 : - It is straight forward no need to answer.

Q:2: - God gave him choice to choose heaven or hell, it does not matter to God what he answers because what he chooses would be beneficial or harmful for him and not to God. However, sending guidance is helping and God does not leave anyone without it and if someone does not listen to what Prophet says, it is really his choice. There can be various reasons for God not helping him more:

        a) God has already fixed that he has given him intelligence and guidance, it, therefore, gives him control on himself to choose what he likes.

        b) God would not interfere in his choices and force him to accept what God likes because if God does that then what is point of giving them authority to choose between good and                  bad and Rewards and Punishments. 

       c) God may not help him to choose for Him because he would want to show to his creation what is result of those who chooses other than Him.

Q:3: - God did the necessary part for satisfying both physical and spiritual needs of his creation, for physical he provides food and for spiritual, he provides guidance through Prophets.

Human is held responsible because he is granted the quality of choice between good and bad. He is responsible because he has authority to choose good for him and if he chooses bad for him, he is to get punishment, God does not exercises his choices. So for what he does, he is responsible not God. Perhaps you may say that God created him, creating something does not define that inventor did wrong, it depends upon user such as Knife is used for both cutting vegetables and slitting a throat, so the blacksmith will not be questioned abouts its use but the one who uses it.      

ok... please refer to my post right above yours, starting from reply to paragraph 2, about keeping things unseen from us and its benefits

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5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

ok... please refer to my post right above yours, starting from reply to paragraph 2, about keeping things unseen from us and its benefits

I think, I have addressed you all points within part 2 of my answer. further more: 

You said that God wants for him goodness, yes Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wants for him goodness but there are 2 goodnesses.

1. Either he accept truth and get into heaven, he got truth and he got reward.

2. Or he does not accept the truth and get into hell, in that case, he will ultimately get one goodness that is truth (eventually on judgement day) but it will be late for him to go into heaven.

So, God offers goodness from his part, it is he who choose disgrace for himself.

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Your 2nd paragraph...

True free will in this sense would only be fair if we also had full and complete knowledge, and that includes hard evidence for the unseen, or the some of the same knowledge, not spoken knowledge, but that of the unseen that the Prophets had.

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

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3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

so the Imams and Prophets weren't making choices?

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3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

of course not I will not touch fire, but that doesn't mean I won't have to work hard, pray, still become a better human being etc... you are implying knowledge is a bad thing here?

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1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

of course not I will not touch fire, but that doesn't mean I won't have to work hard, pray, still become a better human being etc... you are implying knowledge is a bad thing here?

Problem is that you do not understand our construction. There are three types of creations, one are perfect human-beings like Imams and Prophets by looking them we are convinced that undoubtedly the one who created them must be most perfect than them. However, when creation of God such as Angels look upon us, they say that what a great mess ignorance is and pray for us. So, God's real motive is to teach His creation about His marifah.

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4 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Problem is that you do not understand our construction. There are three types of creations, one are perfect human-beings like Imams and Prophets by looking them we are convinced that undoubtedly the one who created them must be most perfect than them. However, when creation of God such as Angels look upon us, they say that what a great mess ignorance is and pray for us. So, God's real motive is to teach His creation about His marifah

8 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Their choices were always between good and best, that is why they are called infallibles. 

thanks for your replies brother, unfortunately it doesnt help resolve my issues and problems..  all the best.

The world can only be the way God wants it to be at any given time, if it was any other way, then God would no longer be God. So all the crap is how God wants it to be apparently...

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17 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your replies brother, unfortunately it doesnt help resolve my issues and problems..  all the best.

The world can only be the way God wants it to be at any given time, if it was any other way, then God would no longer be God. So all the crap is how God wants it to be apparently...

You are welcome, 

I do not deny that God does what he wants, but if determined that creation may have two ways whether to go into heaven and hell by their choice, God is not to be blamed for it, he provides everything such as guidance and amenities and if someone puts his own wrongdoing upon Allah (عزّ وجلّ), then he must know that he choose it and not God for HIm.

I am sure that if you try you will get answers, Insha-Allah, with best wishes.

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20 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Interesting questions,
This is the difference between us and the Prophets, they know the answers to  these questions and we don't. 
Prophets, Imams and other enlightened people they know the purpose of our creation and the meaning of guidance but we don't.
The only way to know the answers of these questions is to submit your Self to Allah completely, live your life as per Qur'an and try to reach the benchmark set by Ahl-e-Bayt.

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1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

That was mistake of Shaitan, that is why he got punishment. All knowledgeable is God. If he would have repented, he would have got relief, and his idiocy was proved when he was kicked from heaven. I do not think you are right about him. God wanted to eliminate his arrogance by humility but he preferred arrogance so did not know humility, you are wrong. 

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22 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

second part, if you knew about death, I think you would have tried to make most out of worship and would not have come here to benefit us with your thoughts at least, this is quite a reasonable justification for me at least. 

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32 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

one point lastly, I did not say that you would not choose fire, if you really wanted it.  I asked will you choose fire if you knew it ? You said you would not, but if you would. God has not made promise to keep you infallible. 

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9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

 

How do you define a "perfect creator"?

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1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

That was mistake of Shaitan, that is why he got punishment. All knowledgeable is God. If he would have repented, he would have got relief, and his idiocy was proved when he was kicked from heaven. I do not think you are right about him. God wanted to eliminate his arrogance by humility but he preferred arrogance so did not know humility, you are wrong. 

I think you have gotten off topic. my argument is, if we are all equipped with some knowledge of the unseen and do not have to accept the word of others for it, we are all better off, the test or our potential is not realized just by seeing the unseen, we would still need to realize our potential.

free will in shaitan's case and his choice to choose eternal damnation for whatever reasons he has is in my view is completely fair... from his side as well as Allah's... shaitan made a decision very well knowing the reality and outcome behind it...thats what I mean. you claimed it would no longer be a choice if we knew the unseen?

your claim can also be disproven by the alleged experiences of mystics, Sufis, arifs, gurus etc... apparently God does reward some people that purify themselves by showing them the unseen (again claims made of unseen by men while offering no evidence)... so what, these mystics are no longer making choices? 

so again I ask if God does show the unseen to some, what benefit does it serve to keep it from the rest other than being a deterrent, or a way for authorities to manipulate us?

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16 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

How do you define a "perfect creator"?

that which He creates is also Perfect... also a Creator who isn't ok with part of His own creation being torturted or being in pain for even a second, much less eternity (no matter what the reasons behind it).

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28 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

How do you define a "perfect creator"?

This is a very good question, I quite like it.

I would also add a Creator that communicates and speaks to His creation. We ridicule idol worshippers saying that their gods can't listen or respond to them... when was the last time Allah spoke to you I ask? on what grounds do I criticize the idol worshipper when I am praying to an idol created by my imagination (the idol is made of matter, so only matter separates my God and the idol worshipper's)... my imaginary Allah also does not listen or respond? I have no evidence to contradict this...

The Qur'an states, they (idols) offer them no profit or harm... I do not have any evidence that contradicts this very statement when in comes to praying to God.

Edited by khamosh21

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Interesting questions,

Q:1 : - It is straight forward no need to answer.

Q:2: - God gave him choice to choose heaven or hell, it does not matter to God what he answers because what he chooses would be beneficial or harmful for him and not to God. However, sending guidance is helping and God does not leave anyone without it and if someone does not listen to what Prophet says, it is really his choice. There can be various reasons for God not helping him more:

        a) God has already fixed that he has given him intelligence and guidance, it, therefore, gives him control on himself to choose what he likes.

        b) God would not interfere in his choices and force him to accept what God likes because if God does that then what is point of giving them authority to choose between good and                  bad and Rewards and Punishments. 

       c) God may not help him to choose for Him because he would want to show to his creation what is result of those who chooses other than Him.

Q:3: - God did the necessary part for satisfying both physical and spiritual needs of his creation, for physical he provides food and for spiritual, he provides guidance through Prophets.

Human is held responsible because he is granted the quality of choice between good and bad. He is responsible because he has authority to choose good for him and if he chooses bad for him, he is to get punishment, God does not exercises his choices. So for what he does, he is responsible not God. Perhaps you may say that God created him, creating something does not define that inventor did wrong, it depends upon user such as Knife is used for both cutting vegetables and slitting a throat, so the blacksmith will not be questioned abouts its use but the one who uses it.      

The answer to these questions are not as easy as you think. In my opinion the one who says I know the answer to these question knows nothing and the one who knows become silent.

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I feel like the answer to my logical fallacy, my OP, seems to be "free will"... this does not begin to even scratch the surface of the topic...

When God is making the decision to send a Prophet to our 1 disbeliever, free will and every action this person will take is already calculated and seen for... which means either God's calculations are exactly right if we take scenario 1, or they are wrong in scenario 2 and we are back to en error where you can't divide by zero...

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Again, that there is reality (I.e. God) is blatantly evident.   But what this reality (God) is, is often times con-fused with that which isn't real (namely, a God).  

Let me know what you think please.

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22 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The answer to these questions are not as easy as you think. In my opinion the one who says I know the answer to these question knows nothing and the one who knows become silent.

thank you for your mysterious and mystical reply /sarcasm

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24 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The answer to these questions are not as easy as you think. In my opinion the one who says I know the answer to these question knows nothing and the one who knows become silent.

My dear brother, I never said that I am perfect human being to answer these questions, I am just trying and if you think I am wrong, I am ready to learn from you, there is no harm in admitting if you correct me. :respect:

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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32 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Again, that there is reality (I.e. God) is blatantly evident.   But what this reality (God) is, is often times con-fused with that which isn't real (namely, a God).  

Let me know what you think please.   

How to see this reality? Please do not tell me that "sharia" or fiqh is the way... 

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17 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Let me know what you think please

Tell you what brother, if your ustaad can prove he has some hold on the unseen, if he can show me a kiramat or a miracle, I will be ready to submit, no more questions.

Edited by khamosh21

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37 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Again, that there is reality (I.e. God) is blatantly evident.   But what this reality (God) is, is often times con-fused with that which isn't real (namely, a God).  

Let me know what you think please.

My real thoughts on what you have written is that I can't disagree with it, I can't agree with it either because I don't know if you are right or wrong...but I don't find religion the way practiced or explained to match what you have written... for example there is no need for Prophets, I mean there is to help and guide, but it doesn't seem like an obligation to do so... 

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Four answers to your question...


1. God created humans guide them to what is wrong and what is right gave them free will and in the end punish them for their sins.

2. In the kingdom of God something happened so He wants to punish the culprits and forgive others. But the culprits asked for what crime they will be punished where is the proof, so He created this world to prove why some are punished and others are spared.

3.In the kingdom of God some creature was infected with some disease. To cure them this world is created for a fixed term. At the end of this world, the cured one will be sent back where they come from (heaven) and others were sent back to live in another realm (hell)for further medication and this process will continue till everyone becomes fit enough to be with God. 
No free will.

4. God does not exist.

Edited by Raheel Yunus

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