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khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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7 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

We chose to suffer in this world by opting for consciousness, you see heaven, Earth and mountain do not suffer.

33:72 Indeed, we offered the Trust (living consciously) to the heavens and the Earth and the mountains , and they declined to bear it  and feared it; but Man undertook to bear it. Indeed, he is unjust (insufficient in duly living his reality) and ignorant.

We had freewill when Adam (mankind) was told do not go near this cursed tree (birth, aging, illness and death) do not taste it's fruit (consciousness) but mankind chose to taste the fruit and immediately becomes conscious of his body his nakedness.

In this world we can only feel because of consciousness but our feelings cannot change anything. No freewill.

7:22 Thus he deceived them (by imposing deluding thoughts, making them 
think they are the physical body; drawing their attention to their corporeality). And when they tasted (consciousness from ) that tree (suffering) they became aware of their corporeal-bodily selves! They began to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise (they tried to suppress their corporeality with the forces of the Names present in their essence)... Their Rabb called to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is an obvious enemy to you?”
 

I disagree with your interpretation.  There is a freewill but the will is not absolute, it always depends on God.

Edited by Abu Nur

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3 hours ago, Raheel Yunus said:

We chose to suffer in this world by opting for consciousness, you see heaven, Earth and mountain do not suffer.

33:72 Indeed, we offered the Trust (living consciously) to the heavens and the Earth and the mountains , and they declined to bear it  and feared it; but Man undertook to bear it. Indeed, he is unjust (insufficient in duly living his reality) and ignorant.

We had freewill when Adam (mankind) was told do not go near this cursed tree (birth, aging, illness and death) do not taste it's fruit (consciousness) but mankind chose to taste the fruit and immediately becomes conscious of his body his nakedness.

In this world we can only feel because of consciousness but our feelings cannot change anything. No freewill.

7:22 Thus he deceived them (by imposing deluding thoughts, making them 
think they are the physical body; drawing their attention to their corporeality). And when they tasted (consciousness from ) that tree (suffering) they became aware of their corporeal-bodily selves! They began to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise (they tried to suppress their corporeality with the forces of the Names present in their essence)... Their Rabb called to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is an obvious enemy to you?”
 

hope you realize they are teaching a completely different interpretation of these things in Islamic seminaries...

its very difficult to reach a conclusion on which interpretation is correct, its not that straightforward.

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I disagree with your interpretation.  There is a freewill but the will is not absolute, it always depends on God.

 

Free will is a very broad term and there are many debates on the matter.

In general terms, we have very little free will; we do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.

We each have no knowledge of what we are about to think next, we are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

The philosopher Schopenhauer wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 
He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes, you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires. They may come from deep past and are probably present in our genes from distant generations.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 
  

The  'free will' often discussed with regards to religion, is, in my opinion, very problematic.

But if you propose an Omniscient creator who knows your present and your future even before your own existence began..then we have no free will.
God's act of creation essentially "predetermines" one's actions, stripping one of free will.

To put it concisely:  If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

Because God is not a mere Observer; God is the Cause of everything, the cause of all causes.

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else. (or God would be wrong)
If God didn't know the reasons (or if there are no specific reasons for your behaviour) then ultimately your choices and behaviour are a mystery even to God.

Omar Khayyam puts it very neatly: 

"I came not hither of my own free will, 
And go against my wish, a puppet still; 

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well 
My future acts, and could each one foretell; 

Without His will no act of mine was wrought; 
Is it then just to punish me in hell?" 

 

(Apologies for the long read, afternoon at home nursing a cold. )

ws.

*

 

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16 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Wasn’t Seyyidna Mohammed (S) chosen “just like that”?  It does indeed happen.  But it is presumptuous for one to imagine that he will be chosen (in fact such a presumptuousness conflicts with being chosen).  

hmm... not according to Chittick and Nasr, wasn't his light the first created and, he was chosen for it etc ..

I don't think I understand what you mean...

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3 hours ago, Raheel Yunus said:

We chose to suffer in this world by opting for consciousness, you see heaven, Earth and mountain do not suffer.

33:72 Indeed, we offered the Trust (living consciously) to the heavens and the Earth and the mountains , and they declined to bear it  and feared it; but Man undertook to bear it. Indeed, he is unjust (insufficient in duly living his reality) and ignorant.

We had freewill when Adam (mankind) was told do not go near this cursed tree (birth, aging, illness and death) do not taste it's fruit (consciousness) but mankind chose to taste the fruit and immediately becomes conscious of his body his nakedness.

In this world we can only feel because of consciousness but our feelings cannot change anything. No freewill.

7:22 Thus he deceived them (by imposing deluding thoughts, making them 
think they are the physical body; drawing their attention to their corporeality). And when they tasted (consciousness from ) that tree (suffering) they became aware of their corporeal-bodily selves! They began to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise (they tried to suppress their corporeality with the forces of the Names present in their essence)... Their Rabb called to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is an obvious enemy to you?”
 

You can simply agree with him and say that we seem to have free will.  The entirety of the created realm (after all) just seems to be real anyway.    

 

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3 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

Free will is a very broad term and there are many debates on the matter.

In general terms, we have very little free will; we do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.

We each have no knowledge of what we are about to think next, we are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

 

 

you can be in the present moment and and sort of escape thinking... you can recede into the background and thoughts can slow down... you can transcend your thoughts (people do it with drugs) some do it with meditation... it can be done.

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6 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

hmm... not according to Chittick and Nasr, wasn't his light the first created and, he was chosen for it etc ..

I don't think I understand what you mean...

What I know is that the Islamic tradition it is pretty clear that the Prophet (S) is the first created light (He was indeed Chosen for it).  Did the Prophet (S) have to go on a path to earn the title of "chosen"?  No, he was indeed chosen from pre-eternity.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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11 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

hmm... not according to Chittick and Nasr, wasn't his light the first created and, he was chosen for it etc ..

I don't think I understand what you mean...

It is presumptuous to imagine that you are a chosen one and that one day you will be realized "just like that" without having to seek the sacred.  Even among those who seek, God still has to choose them.  

Mathew 22:14  "Many are called, but few are chosen."

Edited by eThErEaL

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

It is presumptuous to imagine that you are a chosen one and that one day you will be realized "just like that" without having to seek the sacred.

I am not assuming that at all, thats a miscommunication on my part or misunderstanding on yours... I was just asking about it...

I agree with you, ive come the conclusion I was too caught up thinking about things... trying to let go

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

I am not assuming that at all, thats a miscommunication on my part or misunderstanding on yours... I was just asking about it...

I agree with you, ive come the conclusion I was too caught up thinking about things... trying to let go

it is a miscommunicatin on my part.  I am not assuming this about you.  the "you" is anyone.  

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17 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

Free will is a very broad term and there are many debates on the matter.

In general terms, we have very little free will; we do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.

We each have no knowledge of what we are about to think next, we are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

The philosopher Schopenhauer wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 
He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes, you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires. They may come from deep past and are probably present in our genes from distant generations.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 
  

The  'free will' often discussed with regards to religion, is, in my opinion, very problematic.

But if you propose an Omniscient creator who knows your present and your future even before your own existence began..then we have no free will.
God's act of creation essentially "predetermines" one's actions, stripping one of free will.

To put it concisely:  If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

Because God is not a mere Observer; God is the Cause of everything, the cause of all causes.

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else. (or God would be wrong)
If God didn't know the reasons (or if there are no specific reasons for your behaviour) then ultimately your choices and behaviour are a mystery even to God.

Omar Khayyam puts it very neatly: 

"I came not hither of my own free will, 
And go against my wish, a puppet still; 

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well 
My future acts, and could each one foretell; 

Without His will no act of mine was wrought; 
Is it then just to punish me in hell?" 

 

(Apologies for the long read, afternoon at home nursing a cold. )

ws.

*

 

Get well soon.

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13 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

you can be in the present moment and and sort of escape thinking... you can recede into the background and thoughts can slow down... you can transcend your thoughts (people do it with drugs) some do it with meditation... it can be done.

 

I did say 'in general terms'...   

That's true, it can be very nearly done but it takes a lot of training.I certainly have difficulties with achieving that because I lack the will to concentrate.  :)

 

 

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On 6/22/2019 at 11:15 AM, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your answer... very deep!

question, how does something that is unchanging make decisions? I can never understand this, because making a decision or a choice requires a change in state... so how does Allah get away with it? :)

The only thing that really is is that one Being; He is both the unchanging Absolute, the Unity, and the world-appearance as well. He is both creator and creation. 
It is, of course, important to experience this truth; but it’s perhaps just as important to understand it and to make this knowledge a part of one’s being. This is not just philosophy or theorizing. It is very important to fully comprehend this; otherwise, who knows what you might imagine yourself to be? Some weak,insignificant creature, perhaps!
Now, this is a very useful concept for understanding that one’s eternal Self remains constant, inactive, and unchanged, even while one’s body and mind engages in actions.

La ilaha illalah.
 

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27 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The only thing that really is is that one Being; He is both the unchanging Absolute, the Unity, and the world-appearance as well. He is both creator and creation. 
It is, of course, important to experience this truth; but it’s perhaps just as important to understand it and to make this knowledge a part of one’s being. This is not just philosophy or theorizing. It is very important to fully comprehend this; otherwise, who knows what you might imagine yourself to be? Some weak,insignificant creature, perhaps!
Now, this is a very useful concept for understanding that one’s eternal Self remains constant, inactive, and unchanged, even while one’s body and mind engages in actions.

La ilaha illalah.
 

I realized I don’t have any problem in accepting a Creator, or even suffering for that matter...  I just can't make sense of the Islamic Allah, theology, speculation, lack of evidence,  and find it quite confusing what He wants...

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On 6/23/2019 at 1:21 PM, khamosh21 said:

Please read up Shia theology and/or prove this from valid sources.

It can be argued that it became exaggerated as time went on.. There is a good paper written on this called Crisis and Consolidation in the Formative Period of Shi'Ite Islam: Abu Ja'Far Ibn Qiba Al-Razi and His Contribution to Imamite Shi'Ite Thought

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On 6/22/2019 at 8:17 PM, khamosh21 said:

the whole point is like the arms seller KNOWS what wil happen, thus we hold them partially responsible for the final crime... Allah KNOWS the outcome, but for some reason we remove any responsibility from Him?

if you open an Aqaid book this is the argument between Takweeni vs Tashri, and Allah Himself accepts that He creates evil etc... 

The only argument we are left with is Allah left Saddam alive to torture millions due to Allah's wisdom... Allah allows satan to misguide us due to wisdom. Khizr killed a child due to wisdom..

This elusive wisdom... the unseen...lack of evidence etc etc... few too many problems for my dumb self to understand...

But does Allah make you do it? His knowledge does not contradict our choice! I tried explaining this to you last time - you have to remember Allah's knowledge is not like ours, he knows the choices before they happen unlike us, if he didn't, he wouldn't be an all-knowing God right?

If you attribute injustice to Allah then you have misunderstood Allah.. I do understand we live in a grim reality at times but it's only because we've made it so. At least Islam is honest enough to make human beings responsible instead of putting the blame at Creator's door... or are we? :D

Remember, la jabr la tafwid amr bayn al-amrayn! (No compulsion, no absolute free-will, it is a matter between the two).

Theologians fought long and hard on the issue but the Shi'a were lucky to have the guidance of the Imams, whether you take their guidance on this issue is again your choice, there is no compulsion (sorry for the awful pun in advance).

Edited by ali47

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I disagree with your interpretation.  There is a freewill but the will is not absolute, it always depends on God.

I am not trying to convince you neither I am trying to convince people who are participating in this discussion. I am  rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me. And do but see how much I gain by the discussion.:)

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58 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I just can't make sense of the Islamic Allah, theology, speculation, lack of evidence,  and find it quite confusing what He wants...

Read Qur'an and try to understand it yourself without any outside influence like hadith, tafser  etc you will know what Islamic Allah wants. It is written in one ancient scripture that to attain knowledge you have to take control of your Nafs and control your mind. It is then only you will become worthy of knowledge.

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41 minutes ago, ali47 said:

But does Allah make you do it? His knowledge does not contradict our choice! I tried explaining this to you last time - you have to remember Allah's knowledge is not like ours, he knows the choices before they happen unlike us, if he didn't, he wouldn't be an all-knowing God right?

If you attribute injustice to Allah then you have misunderstood Allah.. I do understand we live in a grim reality at times but it's only because we've made it so. At least Islam is honest enough to make human beings responsible instead of putting the blame at Creator's door... or are we? :D

Remember, la jabr la tafwid amr bayn al-amrayn! (No compulsion, no absolute free-will, it is a matter between the two).

Theologians fought long and hard on the issue but the Shi'a were lucky to have the guidance of the Imams, whether you take their guidance on this issue is again your choice, there is no compulsion (sorry for the awful pun in advance).

the wisdom we use to justify suffering, e.g. creates patience, trials, we lack knowledge so don’t see the benefit etc... I find it's way too much unhealthy speculation, would you agree?

did you read any of the stuff about seeing a miracle I wrote about? thoughts? I feel its unfair to talk so much about miracles and the spiritual abilities of urafa without showing it... one reason people narrate these events I think is to make it credible and authentic, but arent willing to provide evidence when asked, then its all, oh he has to keep it a secret... I think our urafa are knowledgeable, and near perfect people, but highly doubt any capabilities like teleportation etc, makes me really mistrust our scholars...

 

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23 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Read Qur'an and try to understand it yourself without any outside influence like hadith, tafser  etc you will know what Islamic Allah wants. It is written in one ancient scripture that to attain knowledge you have to take control of your Nafs and control your mind. It is then only you will become worthy of knowledge.

ive read the Qur'an since childhood, unfortunately it makes less sense now then before... I get easily bored by repetitious verses about heaven, hell, internal historical and personal problems the Prophet had... really disklike any verse about punishment, things I have no clue are real or not...

all the descriptions  of hell and heaven... what do I do with it? imagine and feel happy or scared?

all these stories about towns being destroyed... just not interesting after the 100th read...

it doesnt really expain the purpose of life...

in general I feel like my imagination is at work and I don’t want to worship my imagination

Edited by khamosh21

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On 6/23/2019 at 9:37 PM, khamosh21 said:

the analogy of procreation is quite weak, you are relying on probability whereas I am arguing from certainty.

The parents are certain that the child will commit evil unless the child dies young.  It would be very odd to say that the parents are only justified to procreate because their child might die young!

Quote

 

If you 100 percent knew your son is going to hell, would you procreate?

if you knew you son is the next saddam or hitler, would you still procreate?

 

A better question is if I knew my son is going to hell, would it be morally permissible to procreate?

The answer is, I think, it depends.  If I knew that my son's existence will lead to greater good, perhaps because he will have pious offspring, or perhaps because he will inspire people directly or indirectly to be good and so increase the overall value of the world, then it would be morally permissible to procreate.  Personally I don’t think I would have it in me to procreate because I would find it too upsetting.  But what I would do and what is morally right to do are not the same thing.

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On 6/24/2019 at 12:57 PM, khamosh21 said:

It doesnt really expain the purpose of life...

Herein I have found purpose for my life, and peace, and hope...

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (words of Jesus) - Matthew 11:28

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." (words of Jesus) - John 15:13

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (words of Jesus) - John 3:16

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17 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

The parents are certain that the child will commit evil unless the child dies young.  It would be very odd to say that the parents are only justified to procreate because their child might die young!

A better question is if I knew my son is going to hell, would it be morally permissible to procreate?

The answer is, I think, it depends.  If I knew that my son's existence will lead to greater good, perhaps because he will have pious offspring, or perhaps because he will inspire people directly or indirectly to be good and so increase the overall value of the world, then it would be morally permissible to procreate.  Personally I don’t think I would have it in me to procreate because I would find it too upsetting.  But what I would do and what is morally right to do are not the same thing.

fair enough if that's how you see it, I just can't continue arguing over it.

even if free will and the problem.of evil is resolved, I still don't understand why things need to be kept hidden and "unseen"... it goes against logic to give less information or knowdledge, if you want people to succeed.

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On 6/24/2019 at 8:22 PM, khamosh21 said:

hope you realize they are teaching a completely different interpretation of these things in Islamic seminaries...

its very difficult to reach a conclusion on which interpretation is correct, its not that straightforward.

Who are "they" ?

Use your own intelligence.

From birth to our death we are on a journey called life. 
The journey of life is fruitful when it becomes spiritual journey.
The spiritual journey is a movement away from over-identification with the body and mind to the rediscovery of our true identity. The movement  is dis- identification with the body and mind. Since identification is simply a movement of thought, dis-identification is simply a movement away from thought. The ego identification that we experience most of the time is the result of repeated thoughts about "I", "me" and "mine".
That is all there is to it, but while we are thinking these thoughts the sense of self is contained in them. And since most of our self-referencing thoughts are about our body, our thoughts, our feelings, and our desires, the sense of self is usually contained in the body and mind. Dis-identification from the thought form of the ego can occur whenever there is a deep questioning of the assumption in most of our thoughts that we are this body and this mind.

It can be a shock to see how completely we assume that I am this body and I am this mind, and an even bigger shock and relief to discover that it is just a thought, and it is not true. The identification is really just a thought. There is no actual equivalence between you and your body or your mind. You are that which experiences the body and the mind, but you are not contained in them.
The moment you realize you experience heaven or oneness with Allah.
All the experience other than this is Hell or suffering.
 

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13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. - Matthew 7:13-14

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On 6/24/2019 at 6:53 PM, khamosh21 said:

the wisdom we use to justify suffering, e.g. creates patience, trials, we lack knowledge so don’t see the benefit etc... I find it's way too much unhealthy speculation, would you agree?

did you read any of the stuff about seeing a miracle I wrote about? thoughts? I feel its unfair to talk so much about miracles and the spiritual abilities of urafa without showing it... one reason people narrate these events I think is to make it credible and authentic, but arent willing to provide evidence when asked, then its all, oh he has to keep it a secret... I think our urafa are knowledgeable, and near perfect people, but highly doubt any capabilities like teleportation etc, makes me really mistrust our scholars...

 

yes brother I agree to an extent some of our scholars can get carried away, after all they are human and some very old lol.

The examples you said, yes these things do create patience and trials but they not because we do not understand..

There's a hadith in Nahjul Balagha (I think!) of 'Ali saying don't be like the dogs who require a beating to learn their lessons... this is sort of the way to look at it, we could have things to easy, but humanity chooses the hard way (doing haram etc) thus we pay the price, which is in essense a warning sign that we are straying from the path. Imagine if we were not aware of suffering when it was happening - then what?

This suffering is a result of our misdeeds or others that affect us which becomes a trial. All of us know suffering is bad intellectually without actually going through it, but still some of us choose. Hence the Arabic word for dhulm is close to that of darkness. Faith is meant to be a shining light to take us to the right path. Having faith and practising it with proper understanding is the first step away from suffering. Yes life and death will happen in this life and nothing is forever, but it doesn't mean it has to be as difficult as we have made it...

Yes, bad things happen our history is full of it, look at the Prophets (عليه السلام) and 12 Imams, but I do not see them for one moment attributing the injustice directly to God. Look at the trial of Husayn, he was betrayed by the people of Kufa and the Umayyads, did he attribute it to God or them, despite God being the ultimate sovereign.

Edited by ali47

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On 6/24/2019 at 12:57 PM, khamosh21 said:

ive read the Qur'an since childhood, unfortunately it makes less sense now then before... I get easily bored by repetitious verses about heaven, hell, internal historical and personal problems the Prophet had... really disklike any verse about punishment, things I have no clue are real or not...

Qur'an is the highest knowledge possible to the man, the philosophy of Qur'an does not appeal to those without the courage and desire to ferret out the Truth for themselves. But those minds long accustomed to enquiry and Truth-seeking will experience a thrilling surge of joy upon discovering the philosophy of Qur'an. For it provides all the missing pieces to the puzzle of life and makes the total picture puzzle at last intelligible and perfectly clear. What a moment it is for the long searching intellect when it finally comes across the truths expressed in Qur'an! What excitement it feels on having all its doubts dispelled, like cobwebs swept from the newly lighted corner of a room. How happy it feels on looking out upon a world perceived as for the first time bathed in clarity and light!
Without intellect, without a preconceived identity or even existence; unknowing, unseeing, guided only by a faith in Truth and the longing of a pure heart, we may enter into the silence of that all-knowing Light. There, no questions rise to separate the knower from the known. There, the Knower is alone— with a Knowledge beyond knowledge, won only by the brave, who soar on wings of love, beyond the knowing mind. 

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