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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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8 hours ago, ali47 said:

Be positive man!

I am interested in hearing your reply to this post within this thread:

and the comment following right before

Edited by khamosh21

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9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

ive come close to experience a type of death, all I saw was the world rising from nothing but a black void, and my useless life and made up identity turned into nothingness... I saw everything turned into nothing and of no value.

 

Strange........ after this experience still you are asking for a sign and miracle.

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19 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

can you give a guarantee or definitive answer as to what would happen to me if I was to see some of the unseen?

Salam with your current situation you will lose your remaining faith , all Shia Urafa that could see unseen just in a brief at least were in level of Mujtahid or near to  Marja status & were working on their soul & mind at least for forty years to become able to see unseen just for few moments .

 

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42 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

Strange........ after this experience still you are asking for a sign and miracle.

people have much crazier experiences on drugs... its not a sign

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31 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam with your current situation you will lose your remaining faith , all Shia Urafa that could see unseen just in a brief at least were in level of Mujtahid or near to  Marja status & were working on their soul & mind at least for forty years to become able to see unseen just for few moments .

 

Why would I lose my current faith, it would be nice to prove such claims...

also this claim of 40 years is quite unsubstantiated... 

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47 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Why would I lose my current faith, it would be nice to prove such claims...

also this claim of 40 years is quite unsubstantiated..

because even seeing it needs strong faith & high capability both spiritually & mentally of tolerating seeing it even if you don't lose your faith you will lose your mind in your current state , people like as Ayatollah Gadi that was main teacher of Ayatollah Khoei worked on himself  for for forty years & at the end with intercession to Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه) just could see unseen for few minutes

Miraculous Power

So many miraculous deeds by Qadi such as Instantaneous Teleport and taking the life of a snake saying the word of al-Mumit [a name of Allah which means giver of death] have been reported. It is quoted from Abu l-Qasim al-Khoei that extraordinary events took place at the death of Sayyid 'Ali Qadi. It is also said that some miraculous events have been occurred upon his grave.

Qadi believed that reaching the position of (true belief in) the Unity of God and true spiritual wayfaring towards God is impossible without accepting the guardianship of Imams (a) and Fatima al-Zahra (s).

In fact, his spiritual conduct was the same as Husayn Quli Hamadani's. According to his discipline, in order to free mind from occupations, the spiritual wayfarer needs to allocate at least half an hour each day for assessing his self, so that gradually he knows himself. Moreover, in order to remove barriers and blockades, he needs to entreat Imam al-Husayn (a).

Ihraq (Burning)

He recommended the method of Ihraq (burn out) for eliminating low desires and selfish intentions. He had adopted this method from the holy Qur'an. In this method, the wayfarer should know that everything belongs to God and he is needy in nature. This method would cause all the selfish intentions and vices to be burned, so it is called Ihraq (burn out).

Observing Recommended Actions

Among Qadi's other methods of spiritual wayfaring towards Allah are observing on-time daily prayers, observing night prayer, keeping a vigil, and repeating various dhikrs which he himself used to say all the time and also advised his students to do so, such as reciting Yunusiyya dhikr together with the Qur'an in prostration, reciting Sura al-Qadr hundred times on Thursday nights, and reciting Sura al-TawhidDu'a Kumayl, and Ziyarat Jami'a frequently. He loved to keep a vigil in the Masjid al-Kufa and Masjid al-Sahla and had small rooms in these two Masjids to worship Allah. He recommended visiting Masjid al-Sahla especially on foot. He also believed that the spiritual wayfarer have to be the Islamic authority, because when some spiritual realms are opened up for him, he would be charged with some duties which only an Islamic authority can find out how to fulfill them properly.

Risala sayr wa suluk

Among mystic books, Qadi recommended Risala sayr wa suluk by Bahr al-'Ulum. However, it is quoted from 'Abbas Quchani, his student, and Muhammad Hasan Qadi, his son, that Qadi allowed nobody to follow some difficult instructions of this book. He loved Futuhat al-Makkiyya and Mathnawi Mulawi and believed that some mystics such as Rumi and Ibn 'Arabi were Shi'a. On the contrary, he believed that keeping some books at home, such as al-Aghani (by Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahani), would bring bad omen because of introducing singers and musicians and describing their immoral behaviors.

Attributes

Aqa Buzurg, who was Qadi's friend for years, has admired Qadi for his steadfastness, nobility and dignity. In spite of poverty and simple life style, he disapproved of unlawful and strict asceticism. He believed that the spiritual wayfarer should care about his body as well, because body is the mount of soul. Thus, he cared about his appearance and used to wear perfume and clean white clothes. He always advised others to be good-mannered and do good.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Sayyid_'Ali_Qadi_Tabataba'I

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Yunusiyya_Dhikr

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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28 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

because even seeing it needs strong faith & high capability both spiritually & mentally of tolerating seeing it even if you don't lose your faith you will lose your mind in your current state , people like as Ayatollah Gadi that was main teacher of Ayatollah Khoei worked on himself  for for forty years & at the end with intercession to Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه) just could see unseen for few minutes

Miraculous Power

So many miraculous deeds by Qadi such as Instantaneous Teleport and taking the life of a snake saying the word of al-Mumit [a name of Allah which means giver of death] have been reported. It is quoted from Abu l-Qasim al-Khoei that extraordinary events took place at the death of Sayyid 'Ali Qadi. It is also said that some miraculous events have been occurred upon his grave.

Qadi believed that reaching the position of (true belief in) the Unity of God and true spiritual wayfaring towards God is impossible without accepting the guardianship of Imams (a) and Fatima al-Zahra (s).

In fact, his spiritual conduct was the same as Husayn Quli Hamadani's. According to his discipline, in order to free mind from occupations, the spiritual wayfarer needs to allocate at least half an hour each day for assessing his self, so that gradually he knows himself. Moreover, in order to remove barriers and blockades, he needs to entreat Imam al-Husayn (a).

I want to believe these things... I want to believe our urafa are in fact capable of the things you've written, I just need evidence for it. I can't just take peoples word for it no matter how nice, knowledge or pious they are.. if one of our urafa were to teleport, I'm pretty sure I won't go crazy or lose my faith... that's not even something from the unseen.thats all I am asking, for these outlandish and impossible stories to at least be once proven in front of my eyes...

 when you say Ayt Qadi, Behjat, x y z could do x y z miraculous things, and you can't show it right now, it means you're just trying to fool people... its just like any other religion claiming their mystics have miraculous powers... you want us to revere your leaders so you come with nonsense stories about them. what makes your claim more believable then some Sufi tariqa?

Edited by khamosh21

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13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your wishes, if things don't go anywhere in 10 years, south america is on my bucket list ;)

I want to take another tackle at defining what it is I need... 

1. certainty

2. a sign, whether in the form of a miracle, kiramat, something ordinary or whatever it is that Allah knows best would give me certainty.

3. my personal thinking is if I see something that is out of sync with my day to day reality and nature, such as talking trees etc, this would establish certainty in me... I can’t guarantee this, but I would place greater probability in this.

 

Good luck.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 6/17/2019 at 9:47 PM, khamosh21 said:

My question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

You are trying to reconcile the concept of true free will with the concept of and omnipotent God. 

It's a great question think about it research it.  You may not find an answer that fully convinced you.But it shouldn't be the question that determines your faith.

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your thoughtful reply, apologies to anyone if im being provocative... I mean well really :)

you see if I KNEW the person im giving the tools to is an idiot, I would never give him tools or send him to do the job, I would find more competent person.

The WHOLE argument can be summed here:

free will + complete knowledge = good

free will + incomplete knowledge = high risk of disaster = idiots = people like me

Is not free will+enough knowledge enough to prevent us from going astray?

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your wishes, if things don't go anywhere in 10 years, south america is on my bucket list ;)

I want to take another tackle at defining what it is I need... 

1. certainty

2. a sign, whether in the form of a miracle, kiramat, something ordinary or whatever it is that Allah knows best would give me certainty.

3. my personal thinking is if I see something that is out of sync with my day to day reality and nature, such as talking trees etc, this would establish certainty in me... I can’t guarantee this, but I would place greater probability in this.

 

Miracles such as talking trees wouldnt be considered miracles if they frequently occured in our daily lives...and so we would want other kinds of miracles. It wouldnt establish certainty in you.

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45 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Miracles such as talking trees wouldnt be considered miracles if they frequently occured in our daily lives...and so we would want other kinds of miracles. It wouldnt establish certainty in you.

it's worth trying, at least someone will get to say I told you so... 

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1 hour ago, shadow_of_light said:

Is not free will+enough knowledge enough to prevent us from going astray?

I would argue that the world is the way it is because of lack of knowledge... otherwise billions wouldn't be going astray?

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9 hours ago, Warilla said:

You are trying to reconcile the concept of true free will with the concept of and omnipotent God. 

It's a great question think about it research it.  You may not find an answer that fully convinced you.But it shouldn't be the question that determines your faith.

apart from this I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I am finding hard to conceive of a God that is ok for His creation to suffer any type of pain for any duration of time... I just can't get my mind around it... out of infinite and unlimited ways to make something, I can't conceive of a God that can imagine a place like hell, and also go through with it...

Edited by khamosh21

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