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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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20 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

I am sorry you find what I am saying nonsensical.You seem to be loosing your patience, you do not have to interact with me. 

No man ever believes that the Qur'an means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.

To allow me to understand the paradox you are proposing,  please let me know, in your opinion: 

Why was it necessary for God to create suffering?

If it was not necessary why create it in the first place?

How do we acquire free will? How does God give us free will?

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil / suffering exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.
So, God *can* create a world without suffering.

If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

ws.

*
 

this is pretty much my problem! same thing just worded differently...

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36 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

This is some sort of beautiful art skill that is required to learn.  Like martial arts is or learning calligraphy is.  It would certainly help to get a teacher who is himself skillful and who can help you practice the art.  Just being around those who know this art also influences you.  

So in your prayers, simply pray for such a teacher and for such a company.  May this teacher ultimately be from the lineage of the Prophet (S) and his family (as they were masters of all masters when it comes to this art which is the art of all arts).

ethereal

 

I know someone who reached this state without any specific path or religion... it was through intellectual self inquiry, solitude, and meditation... what you are describing has to be possible without having to submit yourself to a very very specific path? so why does it feel like I'm going to hell if I doubt for example the Prophets and Imams (I doubt their historical account and how it reached us, not the personalities themselves in that sense)... or if I choose lets say buddhism over Islam?

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31 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

I am sorry you find what I am saying nonsensical.You seem to be loosing your patience, you do not have to interact with me. 

No man ever believes that the Qur'an means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.

To allow me to understand the paradox you are proposing,  please let me know, in your opinion: 

Why was it necessary for God to create suffering?

If it was not necessary why create it in the first place?

How do we acquire free will? How does God give us free will?

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil / suffering exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.
So, God *can* create a world without suffering.

If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

ws.

*
 

also I don't understand how Allah decides to choose to make Imam Ali this perfect human, please correct me, but Imam Ali at time of birth did not earn his way to perfection, but was "made" that way.

so why have I been made imperfect, and Imam Ali perfect. He has zero chance of going to hell or even experiencing the slightest type of pain, and I have every chance... how is this fair?

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

That they inhabit the Fire is His Will.

But that they will without deserving it or not being guilty is a claim I distant myself from.

Allah is Just and not a cruel being who ramdonly puts people in the Fire without any reason.

I distance myself from your unnuanced statement and terrifying image of the most Merciful.

Yes very true. We are suffering in this life created by Him. 
We are inhabitant of fire and this fire is purifying us. We are in this fire Suffering because we are conscious of our body, all events happening to us are predetermined. 

Everything is predetermined.

When and where we will born, who will be our parents Muslim or non  Muslim, rich or poor. Our body structure intelligence, color everything. Do you have any choice
.
Everything our body parts are doing we not only witness it but feel it also because of consciousness.
When we will get sick, get hurt, get success, get rich everything is fixed before. We are just moving in time from one event to another.
Death is also a predetermined event when and where and how is fixed.
When our consciousness is removed that means process of purification is over, all suffering ends. 

Allah is just. He is the one who created this world to purify us.


 

Edited by Raheel Yunus

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree that saddam is blameworthy, but we would also have to agree that God is also partially "blameworty" for creating the conditions and allowing saddam to continue doing what he did...

Creating the conditions that allow evil to happen isnt sufficient for blame.   For example, we know that pretty much every human commits evil, but that doesnt mean that procreation is evil.  Procreation creates some of the conditions for evil - without people there is no evil.

On the other hand, selling weapons to dictatorships knowing they will use them against innocent people is evil.

Both create some of the conditions for evil,  but in one case the action is good but in the other its wrong.  

In the case of procreation, you might say that whilst you know the child will do some evil, overall the world is better if we procreate than if we don’t.  Or you might say just giving a child an opportunity to learn and grow and freely choose good is a very valuable thing that outweighs and evil that results.  Similarly, allowing humanity to freely choose good, and to shun and fight evil makes humanity overall more valuable.  

 

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18 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

I don’t think that we, ordinary people, can acquire certainty in this world because we don’t know many things. 

isnt that exactly my point? if you heard a tree doing zikr of Allah, that wouldn't help?... if some arif hears a tree doing zikr, who is that helping? the arif? person who already has attained certainty? we are the ones who need it.

Edited by khamosh21

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6 hours ago, Quisant said:

 

I don't believe your statement is correct.

God uses suffering, since without it there are somethings He can't do? 

If suffering /evil is necessary for God to to achieve His or our 'greater good' He cannot be Omnipotent.

Nothing is necessary to an omnipotent God.

You have probably heard of 'be and it is'
 

ws

*

You are over complicating it. Does an single omnipotent entity that creates everything exist. If it's no or maybe, then go back to the previous post. 

If yes then does suffering exists. Obviously yes. There for this dirty creates/ allows it.

Edited by Warilla

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

so why have I been made imperfect, and Imam Ali perfect. He has zero chance of going to hell or even experiencing the slightest type of pain, and I have every chance... how is this fair?

A God who claims to be "Utterly Just" should not have favourites.

Why would God single out certain individuals and elevate them above other people I don't know but you are right, it does not seem fair.

Oxford English Dictionary: 
Favouritism: noun - the unfair favouring of one person or group at the expense of another. 

10th-century Syrian poet Abu al- Ala al-Maarri: : 

Mohammed or Messiah! Hear thou me, 
The truth entire nor here nor there can be; 
How should our God who made the sun and the moon 
Give all his light to One, I cannot see. 
ws.

*

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29 minutes ago, Warilla said:

You are over complicating it. Does an single omnipotent entity that creates everything exist. If it's no or maybe, then go back to the previous post. 

If yes then does suffering exists. Obviously yes. There for this dirty creates/ allows it.

I did not mean to over complicate it, Life is sometime complex.  :)

 

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17 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

God could give us all heaven instantly, would that be fair you ask? yes, why wouldn't it be fair? because you said so?

If Allah is necessary, then by default we say everything else is unnecessary right? I say this test is unnecessary including this diluted world and universe... 

if I were designing a world where I wanted to give my creation Mercy, Love, and wanted them to know Me.... I would do exactly that! without any insane tests, conditions and possibility of eternally burning... without viels and hoping people would read inane philopsphy,  and having to study confusing books from centuries ago which aren't even in your own language... brother the list goes on... I can design a world where 100 percent of my creation knows me and I don’t see how that would be unfair?

its already done btw, God created Prophets and Imams in exactly the state I have described above... 

Not because I say but because God has made it so brother :) It's fallacious reasoning to talk about a reality that does not exist, but if you can feel you create it, then go ahead and try. The religion is simple we have made it hard unfortunately, like now believe it or not =]

 

Sahih International: Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allah sent the Prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path. Qur'an 2:213

Edited by ali47

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18 minutes ago, Quisant said:

I did not mean to over complicate it, Life is sometime complex.  :)

 

True but the meaning of my posts was to simplify and get a basic understanding of the OP basic view/ beleif.

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1 hour ago, ali47 said:

Not because I say but because God has made it so brother :) It's fallacious reasoning to talk about a reality that does not exist, but if you can feel you create it, then go ahead and try. The religion is simple we have made it hard unfortunately, like now believe it or not =]

 

I am not talking about creating another reality (obviously!)... I am saying it seems to be an act of inefficiency or lack of wisdom to create a less perfect thing when you are capable of creating more perfect things... I think Quisant quite well described the paradox... 

edit': in other words I am challenging the claim this reality was made by a God the fits the Islamic description and attributes.

Edited by khamosh21

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5 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

Creating the conditions that allow evil to happen isnt sufficient for blame.   For example, we know that pretty much every human commits evil, but that doesnt mean that procreation is evil.  Procreation creates some of the conditions for evil - without people there is no evil.

On the other hand, selling weapons to dictatorships knowing they will use them against innocent people is evil.

Both create some of the conditions for evil,  but in one case the action is good but in the other its wrong.  

In the case of procreation, you might say that whilst you know the child will do some evil, overall the world is better if we procreate than if we don’t.  Or you might say just giving a child an opportunity to learn and grow and freely choose good is a very valuable thing that outweighs and evil that results.  Similarly, allowing humanity to freely choose good, and to shun and fight e

 

the whole point is like the arms seller KNOWS what wil happen, thus we hold them partially responsible for the final crime... Allah KNOWS the outcome, but for some reason we remove any responsibility from Him?

if you open an Aqaid book this is the argument between Takweeni vs Tashri, and Allah Himself accepts that He creates evil etc... 

The only argument we are left with is Allah left Saddam alive to torture millions due to Allah's wisdom... Allah allows satan to misguide us due to wisdom. Khizr killed a child due to wisdom..

This elusive wisdom... the unseen...lack of evidence etc etc... few too many problems for my dumb self to understand...

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5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

isnt that exactly my point? if you heard a tree doing zikr of Allah, that wouldn't help?... if some arif hears a tree doing zikr, who is that helping? the arif? person who already has attained certainty? we are the ones who need it.

I am not sure that we need it. If we had absolute certainty, would we use our brains for reflecting on God and universe? 

For being a good person, we don’t need to have certainty. Even for being a believer, we don’t need to have absolute certainty for certainty (yaqeen) has a higher status than faith(iman).

 

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

also I don't understand how Allah decides to choose to make Imam Ali this perfect human, please correct me, but Imam Ali at time of birth did not earn his way to perfection, but was "made" that way.

so why have I been made imperfect, and Imam Ali perfect. He has zero chance of going to hell or even experiencing the slightest type of pain, and I have every chance... how is this fair?

He was not made perfect. He himself became perfect through his piety, otherwise his perfectness would be worthless.

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10 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

He was not made perfect. He himself became perfect through his piety, otherwise his perfectness would be worthless.

exactly, I wouldnt call it worthless, but I don't see how it is fair....

are you Shia? according to Shia 12ever theology, he was born with "ismat", as well as all Prophets, they are pure and kept pure by Allah... also they can see the unseen, Allah speaks with Prophets etc... 

of course one can't compare their responsibility with mine, but thats besides the point... 

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20 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

I am not sure that we need it. If we had absolute certainty, would we use our brains for reflecting on God and universe? 

For being a good person, we don’t need to have certainty. Even for being a believer, we don’t need to have absolute certainty for certainty (yaqeen) has a higher status than faith(iman).

 

are you saying the Prophets and Imams weren't using their brains? or those people who have attained certainty through seeing miracles or the unseen don’t use their brains?  I don’t see the logic behind the comparing the two... brain can continue reflecting even better with more certainty

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As a Christian, I do not find a paradox in God's creation of mankind (perfect and imperfect) or His allowance of the presence of good and evil in our world. From the Bible, I believe Adam was innocent of any evil, unashamed of his nakedness, ruler over all earthly creation. There was no death; no pain or suffering or sorrow; no concept of fire or punishment or evil. Then Adam disobeyed God's one and only rule. He ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The rest of the story is history. Sin brought the curse of suffering and death and judgment upon mankind. Much of mankind chose to do evil continuously. Some had faith in God to save them and tried to live righteously (I.e., Moses, Abraham, David). Then God stopped history and time. In His mercy and love and grace, He sent His Son, the only perfect man, to rescue mankind from judgment--eternal spiritual separation from God. Jesus' perfect sinless life was an acceptable sacrifice to pay the cost of sin (death) and restore mankind's righteousness and holiness before God. Many have rejected God's plan to save the world, but for those who have believed and placed their faith in Jesus, there is a new life. When Jesus died in our place, we were set free from the curse. And because He lives, we know we will have eternal spiritual life with God forever.

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12 hours ago, Quisant said:

To allow me to understand the paradox you are proposing,  please let me know, in your opinion: 

Why was it necessary for God to create suffering?

If it was not necessary why create it in the first place?

How do we acquire free will? How does God give us free will?

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil / suffering exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.
So, God *can* create a world without suffering.

If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

ws.

*
 

There is no paradox.

I never said anything was or wasn't necessary, you did. I reference the ayat which says that Allah creates Good and Evil, the measuring stick, a condition of being creation.

Allah gives us free will by virtue of Good and Evil. Dualism is the conditions of which the Soul is tested. A person that can only do good, or evil, has no free will.

No, Jannah is a very different thing from this state of existence, it is only explained to us symbolically and esoterically, Jannah is a state of union and bliss with Allah.

Again, if Allah created a world without suffering, then (just as with a world without good) you would have to accept nihilism. If there is no process of which the Soul can get from A to B to C, then we risk calling ourselves Allah. If the soul has no path and no dualism to be tested by, then the Soul has no purpose or is a puppet on strings.

It's not a matter of if or if not, it's a matter of "why?". 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

the whole point is like the arms seller KNOWS what wil happen, thus we hold them partially responsible for the final crime... Allah KNOWS the outcome, but for some reason we remove any responsibility from Him?

 

The parents also know that their child will commit some evil, with a very high degree of probability.  The only thing that would stop that from happening is if the child dies young (as young children cannot sin), but if the child dies young then that would be a source of significant distress for parents and others.  So the parents know the following disjunction with certainty:  either my child will commit some evil, or there will be significant distress.

The whole point is that knowing that your action will result in some evil does not make the action wrong.

And its not simply the case that we appeal to some unknown wisdom.  We see concrete examples of evil leading to greater good.  For example suffering at the hands of a tyrant can cause an individual to become more patient, or give them an opportunity to show courage and bravery.  These are all good things and require the existence of evil for them to occur.

Also remember the dialectic here.  You are presenting evil as an argument against the existence of God.  All I have to do is show that it is very much possible for God to allow evil and be morally justified in order to undermine the argument. I do not need to show what the specific justification in each case is

Edited by .InshAllah.

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14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

exactly, I wouldnt call it worthless, but I don't see how it is fair....

are you Shia? according to Shia 12ever theology, he was born with "ismat", as well as all Prophets, they are pure and kept pure by Allah... also they can see the unseen, Allah speaks with Prophets etc... 

of course one can't compare their responsibility with mine, but thats besides the point... 

I believe in shiism. No Prophet/ Imam had certainty or infalliblity since his early childhood.They attained it gradually.

There are 2 types of infalliblity:

1. Not to commit sin (they themselves attained this one)

2. Not to make unintentional mistakes(God gave them knowledge so they wouldnt make mistakes)

Everyone else would benefit from having this knowledge if he was as pious as them.

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21 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I know someone who reached this state without any specific path or religion... it was through intellectual self inquiry, solitude, and meditation... what you are describing has to be possible without having to submit yourself to a very very specific path? so why does it feel like I'm going to hell if I doubt for example the Prophets and Imams (I doubt their historical account and how it reached us, not the personalities themselves in that sense)... or if I choose lets say buddhism over Islam?

Why does it feel that way to you?  I don’t know.

but you could always become a Buddhist, a Christian, a Jew, or a Hindu etc..

But I don’t think your issue is with Islam.  You may not have truly found Islam entirely (Allahu Alam).  Because Islam, being the last divinely revealed religion, is universal and contains, in some mode, the essence of all other divinely revealed religions.  

Do you have to follow a particular path.  As a rule, yes.  There are very rare exceptions to this rule (which only go to prove the rule) where God chooses someone “just like that”.  But it would be foolish to presume that you will be chosen “just like that”.  

:)

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

I believe in shiism. No Prophet/ Imam had certainty or infalliblity since his early childhood.They attained it gradually.

Please read up Shia theology and/or prove this from valid sources.

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Please read up Shia theology and/or prove this from valid sources.

I cannot prove it but it seems more logical than believing that they were born infallible. 

Believing that they themselves attained infalliblity (type 1) means acknowledging their piety and their efforts not to commit sin.

And being born while you have certainty (yaqeen)....what can it mean??!! And how can it occur?! Isnt it meaningless? 

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10 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

I cannot prove it but it seems more logical than believing that they were born infallible. 

Believing that they themselves attained infalliblity (type 1) means acknowledging their piety and their efforts not to commit sin.

And being born while you have certainty (yaqeen)....what can it mean??!! And how can it occur?! Isnt it meaningless? 

so when the Prophet was a child, you don't think he knew he was a Prophet?

since I have read up on these things, I am quite certain in what I am saying exists in our books... they also have a convuluted way of justifying it, they say Allah knew that these individuals would be the best from His Knowledge, so they sort of earned it and also Allah gave it to them... this is in our books!

Edited by khamosh21

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Why does it feel that way to you?  I don’t know.

but you could always become a Buddhist, a Christian, a Jew, or a Hindu etc..

But I don’t think your issue is with Islam.  You may not have truly found Islam entirely (Allahu Alam).  Because Islam, being the last divinely revealed religion, is universal and contains, in some mode, the essence of all other divinely revealed religions.  

Do you have to follow a particular path.  As a rule, yes.  There are very rare exceptions to this rule (which only go to prove the rule) where God chooses someone “just like that”.  But it would be foolish to presume that you will be chosen “just like that”.  

:)

I feel this way due to all the very threatening verses of the Qur'an...

wasnt siddhartha choosen just like that? ive also given up on a previous life and much more, lets hope for the best... jking, pray for me.

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

so when the Prophet was a child, you don't think he knew he was a Prophet?

since I have read up on these things, I am quite certain in what I am saying exists in our books... they also have a convuluted way of justifying it, they say Allah knew that these individuals would be the best from His Knowledge, so they sort of earned it and also Allah gave it to them... this is in our books!

I don’t think he knew it. The first time he met Gabriel, he was afraid. Wasnt he?

Yes, God knew what would happen in the future...I partly accept this justification. But I don’t think that they were born while they had yaqeen...they gained it later.

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4 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

I cannot prove it but it seems more logical than believing that they were born infallible. 

Believing that they themselves attained infalliblity (type 1) means acknowledging their piety and their efforts not to commit sin.

And being born while you have certainty (yaqeen)....what can it mean??!! And how can it occur?! Isnt it meaningless? 

The gospel (which means good news) of the Bible teaches that we are sinners who cannot redeem ourselves. We want to do good, but cannot. Jesus was sinless. He never did evil nor desired to do evil. His nature was good, from God, in the very likeness of God. His sinless death paid the price that God required to break the curse on mankind. When we, individually, believe in Jesus and ask for forgiveness, all our sins are washed away, as far away as the east is from the west. David prophesied of Jesus, "as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us."  - Psalm 103:12 

Our sin nature dies with Jesus on the cross. His Spirit comes to live in us, giving us righteousness, as if we had never sinned, and gives us a new nature that doesn't desire to sin. Bit the Bible also says that once we have this new nature, and are born of God, if we sin and then confess that sin, He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:5-10

Edited by MartyS
Punctuation

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1 hour ago, shadow_of_light said:

I don’t think he knew it. The first time he met Gabriel, he was afraid. Wasnt he?

Yes, God knew what would happen in the future...I partly accept this justification. But I don’t think that they were born while they had yaqeen...they gained it later.

this is the Sunni version of events. my request is please do your research before replying...

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54 minutes ago, MartyS said:

The gospel (which means good news) of the Bible teaches that we are sinners who cannot redeem ourselves. We want to do good, but cannot. Jesus was sinless. He never did evil nor desired to do evil. His nature was good, from God, in the very likeness of God. His sinless death paid the price that God required to break the curse on mankind. When we, individually, believe in Jesus and ask for forgiveness, all our sins are washed away, as far away as the east is from the west. David prophesied of Jesus, "as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us."  - Psalm 103:12 

Our sin nature dies with Jesus on the cross. His Spirit comes to live in us, giving us righteousness, as if we had never sinned, and gives us a new nature that doesn't desire to sin. Bit the Bible also says that once we have this new nature, and are born of God, if we sin and then confess that sin, He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:5-10

thanks for writing these, fyi, its not helping

Edited by khamosh21

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10 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

The parents also know that their child will commit some evil, with a very high degree of probability.  The only thing that would stop that from happening is if the child dies young (as young children cannot sin), but if the child dies young then that would be a source of significant distress for parents and others.  So the parents know the following disjunction with certainty:  either my child will commit some evil, or there will be significant distress.

The whole point is that knowing that your action will result in some evil does not make the action wrong.

And its not simply the case that we appeal to some unknown wisdom.  We see concrete examples of evil leading to greater good.  For example suffering at the hands of a tyrant can cause an individual to become more patient, or give them an opportunity to show courage and bravery.  These are all good things and require the existence of evil for them to occur.

Also remember the dialectic here.  You are presenting evil as an argument against the existence of God.  All I have to do is show that it is very much possible for God to allow evil and be morally justified in order to undermine the argument. I do not need to show what the specific justification in each case is

the analogy of procreation is quite weak, you are relying on probability whereas I am arguing from certainty.

If you 100 percent knew your son is going to hell, would you procreate?

if you knew you son is the next saddam or hitler, would you still procreate?

as for your last paragraph, whatever floats your boat brother :)

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7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I feel this way due to all the very threatening verses of the Qur'an...

There is no doubt that life is seriously not to be taken seriously. You need to see the “threatening verses in light of the verses of mercy and hope.”  

7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

wasnt siddhartha choosen just like that? ive also given up on a previous life and much more, lets hope for the best... jking, pray for me.

 

Wasn’t Seyyidna Mohammed (S) chosen “just like that”?  It does indeed happen.  But it is presumptuous for one to imagine that he will be chosen (in fact such a presumptuousness conflicts with being chosen).  

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11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

the analogy of procreation is quite weak, you are relying on probability whereas I am arguing from certainty.

If you 100 percent knew your son is going to hell, would you procreate?

if you knew you son is the next saddam or hitler, would you still procreate?

as for your last paragraph, whatever floats your boat brother :)

Salam only time that someone killed an unbeliever child was Prophet Khidr (عليه السلام) that his story mentioned in Qur'an , also recorded in Sunni books that when Marwan ibn Hakam (la) born , people bring him to Prophet Muhammad (pbu) to pray for him but he said he is "Toad son of Toad , cursed son of Cursed"«الوزغ بن الوزغ المعلون بن المعلون» 

but didn't kill him although he knew that he  will kill many people from Muslims & his progeny

2. مستدرك حاكم، ج4، ص479

Mustadrak , Hakim , p 479 

And Aisha said Prophet Muhmmad (pbu) cursed him when his father when he was in back of his father (not born yet)

1. مستدرك حاكم، ج4، ص481؛ تفسر قرطبی، ج18، ص197، و منابع دیگر.

Mustadrak , Hakim ,v 4  p 481 , Qutabi Tafseer , V 18 , p 197

https://www.pasokhgoo.ir/node/5956

https://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&paragraphid=&bk_no=74&ID=8354&Books=&start=

that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said hand of Marwan is like hand of Jewish ( breaks any oath) & not accepted his allegiance after Jamal battle.

https://hawzah.net/ar/Question/View/61233

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 6/20/2019 at 11:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

apart from this I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I am finding hard to conceive of a God that is ok for His creation to suffer any type of pain for any duration of time... I just can't get my mind around it... out of infinite and unlimited ways to make something, I can't conceive of a God that can imagine a place like hell, and also go through with it...

We chose to suffer in this world by opting for consciousness, you see heaven, Earth and mountain do not suffer.

33:72 Indeed, we offered the Trust (living consciously) to the heavens and the Earth and the mountains , and they declined to bear it  and feared it; but Man undertook to bear it. Indeed, he is unjust (insufficient in duly living his reality) and ignorant.

We had freewill when Adam (mankind) was told do not go near this cursed tree (birth, aging, illness and death) do not taste it's fruit (consciousness) but mankind chose to taste the fruit and immediately becomes conscious of his body his nakedness.

In this world we can only feel because of consciousness but our feelings cannot change anything. No freewill.

7:22 Thus he deceived them (by imposing deluding thoughts, making them 
think they are the physical body; drawing their attention to their corporeality). And when they tasted (consciousness from ) that tree (suffering) they became aware of their corporeal-bodily selves! They began to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise (they tried to suppress their corporeality with the forces of the Names present in their essence)... Their Rabb called to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is an obvious enemy to you?”
 

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