Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Quisant said:

If suffering /evil is necessary for God to to achieve His or our 'greater good'.........

Utterly false, through and through. You're looking at things very Christian here as well.

Suffering originates from that which is ultimately not real and only exists in the circumstantial, not the transcendent. The Ego-self is where suffering originates and it is the default encapsulation of the state of the body (or material) and attachment thereof. Nothing is necessary "for" God other than itself. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

God could give us all heaven instantly, would that be fair you ask? yes, why wouldn't it be fair? because you said so?

Salam there is narration that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said : "if all people on Earth were believing  on Imamate  of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) God/Allah  wouldn't create hell "

Sheikh Saduq , book of Al-Amali p 657

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa34009

, hell is product of ignorance & denying facts in definition Kufr means covering like as we put our hand in front of Sun & by making shadow we say that sun doesn't exists so we will doom to be in forever darkness like as Qur'an says 

 It is He who blesses you—and so do His angels—that He may bring you out from darkness into light, and He is most merciful to the faithful. (43)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/33:43

Those who deny Our signs are deaf and dumb, in a manifold darkness. Allah leads astray whomever He wishes, and whomever He wishes He puts him on a straight path. (39) 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/6:39

Is he who was lifeless, then We gave him life and provided him with a light by which he walks among the people, like one who dwells in a manifold darkness which he cannot leave? To the faithless is thus presented as decorous what they have been doing. (122)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/6:122

Atheist Islam-Hater converts to Islam! Funny yet AMAZING story! (with subtitles) from 9:00 to 11:00 talks about your concern 

 

On 6/20/2019 at 11:50 PM, khamosh21 said:

I am speaking of stuff like teleportation, stuff of the seen...

all these can achieve by hard work on purifying & doing prayers with full energy & intention by any person or even by science and all people after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) will have most of these abilities or will benefit from it because of perfection in their understanding & religion  , but in Shia history who obtained these abilities didn't advertise publicly only a few knew very close persons knew it  that sometimes leaked after their death 

Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. So be wary of Allah, O you who possess intellect and have faith! Allah has already sent down to you a reminder, (10) an apostle reciting to you the manifest signs of Allah that He may bring out those who have faith and do righteous deeds from darkness into light. And whoever has faith in Allah and does righteous deeds, He shall admit him into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them forever. Allah has certainly granted him an excellent provision. (11)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/65:10

Have they not travelled through the land so that they may have hearts by which they may exercise their reason, or ears by which they may hear? Indeed, it is not the eyes that turn blind, but it is the hearts in the breasts that turn blind! (46)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/22:46

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam there is narration that Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said : "if all people on Earth were believing  on Imamate  of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) God/Allah  wouldn't create hell "

Sheikh Saduq , book of Al-Amali p 657

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa34009

, hell is product of ignorance & denying facts in definition Kufr means covering like as we put our hand in front of Sun & by making shadow we say that sun doesn't exists so we will doom to be in forever darkness like as Qur'an says 

 It is He who blesses you—and so do His angels—that He may bring you out from darkness into light, and He is most merciful to the faithful. (43)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/33:43

Those who deny Our signs are deaf and dumb, in a manifold darkness. Allah leads astray whomever He wishes, and whomever He wishes He puts him on a straight path. (39) 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/6:39

Is he who was lifeless, then We gave him life and provided him with a light by which he walks among the people, like one who dwells in a manifold darkness which he cannot leave? To the faithless is thus presented as decorous what they have been doing. (122)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/6:122

Atheist Islam-Hater converts to Islam! Funny yet AMAZING story! (with subtitles) from 9:00 to 11:00 talks about your concern 

 

all these can achieve by hard work on purifying & doing prayers with full energy & intention by any person or even by science and all people after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) will have most of these abilities or will benefit from it because of perfection in their understanding & religion  , but in Shia history who obtained these abilities didn't advertise publicly only a few knew very close persons knew it  that sometimes leaked after their death 

Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. So be wary of Allah, O you who possess intellect and have faith! Allah has already sent down to you a reminder, (10) an apostle reciting to you the manifest signs of Allah that He may bring out those who have faith and do righteous deeds from darkness into light. And whoever has faith in Allah and does righteous deeds, He shall admit him into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them forever. Allah has certainly granted him an excellent provision. (11)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/65:10

Have they not travelled through the land so that they may have hearts by which they may exercise their reason, or ears by which they may hear? Indeed, it is not the eyes that turn blind, but it is the hearts in the breasts that turn blind! (46)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/22:46

to be fair to our discussuon I think before we continue, you should atrempt to answer my previous questions about what is the motivation behind narrating miracles and supernatural events... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, HakimPtsid said:

tterly false, through and through. You're looking at things very Christian here as well.

Suffering originates from that which is ultimately not real and only exists in the circumstantial, not the transcendent. The Ego-self is where suffering originates and it is the default encapsulation of the state of the body (or material) and attachment thereof. Nothing is necessary "for" God other than itself. 

Nothing to do with Christianity, just common sense.

If God in His 'transcendence mode' or any other mode is not aware of human suffering He is not Omniscient.

A 'Creator God' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

ws.

*
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/18/2019 at 10:14 AM, khamosh21 said:

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

What makes it an injustice - whos rights are violated?  Certainly not the rights of the evil people as they freely chose evil.

Quote

 

Your 2nd paragraph...

True free will in this sense would only be fair if we also had full and complete knowledge, and that includes hard evidence for the unseen, or the some of the same knowledge, not spoken knowledge, but that of the unseen that the Prophets had.

 

This is false, as it implies that Saddam was not blameworthy (but you already agreed he was).  This is because Saddam did not have 'full and complete knowledge', and if that is necessary for free will as you claim, then he didn't have free will, which means we can't blame him for what he did.  The point is that complete knowledge is not necessary for free will.  All that is necessary is sufficient knowledge.  If someone really does lack sufficient knowledge and it is not their fault, then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wont punish them, as stated by verses in Qur'an. 

Edited by .InshAllah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Nothing to do with Christianity, just common sense.

If God in His 'transcendence mode' or any other mode is not aware of human suffering He is not Omniscient.

A 'Creator God' that is not in control or fully aware of the future consequences of his creative act is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity.

ws.

*
 

Where did you get this idea from? the Qur'an literally says that Allah creates Good and Evil, in other words that moral dualism is a product and condition of creation itself. You're taking a way too theistic-dualism approach to Islam, which is not very familiar with our theology. Assuming Evil came from anything else but Allah would be Shirk, it would possibly even be Henotheism but most of all the same age-old gnostic duotheism - of which Tawhid slams the breaks on that idea.

Edited by HakimPtsid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, .InshAllah. said:

What makes it an injustice - whos rights are violated?  Certainly not the rights of the evil people as they freely chose evil.

This is false, as it implies that Saddam was not blameworthy (but you already agreed he was).  This is because Saddam did not have 'full and complete knowledge', and if that is necessary for free will as you claim, then he didn't have free will, which means we can't blame him for what he did.  The point is that complete knowledge is not necessary for free will.  All that is necessary is sufficient knowledge.  If someone really does lack sufficient knowledge and it is not their fault, then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wont punish them, as stated by verses in Qur'an. 

I agree that saddam is blameworthy, but we would also have to agree that God is also partially "blameworty" for creating the conditions and allowing saddam to continue doing what he did...

I mean why blame weapons and arms factories for violence and war, it's not the makers that are pulling the triggers?

Or maybe Hazrat Khizr could have assasinated saddam in his crib and save millions from suffering and misery? if hazrat khizr can murder a minor to save the parents some grief, then savings millions from grief by killing saddam would definitely be better... oh wait sorry we can’t understand the wisdom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

to be fair to our discussuon I think before we continue, you should atrempt to answer my previous questions about what is the motivation behind narrating miracles and supernatural events... 

it's like as Prpophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) asked about returning to life from Allah that Allah said to him doesn't you believe to itthat Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) answered I believe to it but I want to comfort my heart..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HakimPtsid said:

Where did you get this idea from? the Qur'an literally says that Allah creates Good and Evil, in other words that moral dualism is a product and condition of creation itself. You're taking a way too theistic-dualism approach to Islam, which is not very familiar with our theology.

God also creates Evil in Christian theology:
I form the light, and create darkness: make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7) 

I am not objecting to the opinion of theologians, I am simply saying that the visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent / merciful form described by either religion.
*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/17/2019 at 10:47 PM, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Would it be just to be thrown in the Fire without being responsible for one's own deeds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Will of God is in His conditions. Our choices and how we deal with these conditions are ours.

He is not in need of us yet any good we do is for our own sake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Quisant said:

I am not objecting to the opinion of theologians, I am simply saying that the visible amount of misery/suffering/pain in this world is really not compatible with the God in the benevolent / merciful form described by either religion.

This is utterly nonsensical. 

What we do, good or evil, is to the affect of our own Soul. Are you at all familiar with Akhlaq? you don't seem to be.

We cannot blame Allah for the things we do to others. But ultimately nothing, good or evil, can exist without Allah, none is independent from Allah. This does not stop our own mistreatment of others, the responsibility of what actions we choose to take can never be blamed on Allah as though Allah is the fault of our own decisions - that is nonsensical, again.

If we strive towards Goodness, we are striving towards that which transcends Evil. Good and evil are below Allah's Unicity. A metaphysical dualism of any kind cannot be as-samad. Allah can only be that which pervades and transcends all qualities and attributes, which in the universe constitutes evil as well. To merely limit Allah to only Benevolent and Merciful is also limiting Allah, as Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says. To take these attributes as anything less than the essence of the qualities, is to limit Allah to not being Allah, but instead a false idea of Allah. As I said, both good and evil can only be considered illusory in comparison to Allah which is above duality. Again, the Tawhid is highly significant and you're underestimating it clearly with your questions. 

 

This is very much embodied in the affirmation of the Takbir as well. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's like as Prpophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) asked about returning to life from Allah that Allah said to him doesn't you believe to itthat Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) answered I believe to it but I want to comfort my heart..

that doesn't answer the question brother... why do people narrate miracles performed by others, please go back to orginal post that asks this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree that saddam is blameworthy, but we would also have to agree that God is also partially "blameworty" for creating the conditions and allowing saddam to continue doing what he did...

I mean why blame weapons and arms factories for violence and war, it's not the makers that are pulling the triggers?

Or maybe Hazrat Khizr could have assasinated saddam in his crib and save millions from suffering and misery? if hazrat khizr can murder a minor to save the parents some grief, then savings millions from grief by killing saddam would definitely be better... oh wait sorry we can’t understand the wisdom?

If these conditions ALWAYS led to the same outcome, then , yes, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would be partially to blame. But it is never the case, that a particular set of conditions always leads to the same outcome. For example, I grew up in Los Angeles in the 80s and early 90s in an area of the city, (North Long Beach) where there was lots of violence and gang activity. I also came from a home where the father was absent, was exposed to drugs and alcohol at a young age, gang violence, etc. You probably know where I am going with. The most notorious criminals and gang members (bloods and the crips, and also MS13) came out of that area at that time. Many went to the same high school as I did. They grew up in the same place, same circumstances as I did. Yet I went on to convert to Islam, pursue my college and post bac education, and now have a good job (alhamduillah) that doesn't involve doing criminal activities and I am not dead, in prison, or the murderer of someone else. I am not the only one, there are others like me who achieved similar things or higher, there are also many who went the other way. I have went to some of their funerals and visited some of them in prison. I had positive and negative role models in my life, just like everyone else. I chose to emulate the positive ones and not the negative ones. I have people in my own family that I am pretty sure (but not certain) are destined for the lowest levels of hell because of their actions in this life. Some are very wealthy. I could have went in that direction, that would have been easy. I chose not to do that. 

The point is that no matter what the circumstances are, you always have a choice, to do good or evil. If you chose to do good, you will get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not in terms of physical proximity but in terms of advance in the state of your spirit and copiousness of what is real and what is false., in the ultimate sense. If you choose to do evil, the consequences are movement away from that state. It is the same for everyone, whether you grew up in Los Angeles, Tehran, or Beijing. There are always plenty of opportunities to go in either direction. Which way we go is a choice. That is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us free will as well as Aql (reason), and the message of the Prophets and Imams((عليه السلام))  to guide us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I agree that saddam is blameworthy, but we would also have to agree that God is also partially "blameworty" for creating the conditions and allowing saddam to continue doing what he did...

Is the same as claiming that the shop owner is guilty for the theft of the employer who stole his goods because he hired the latter.

Saddam will be rewarded according what he did.

This is not a quote from Abdul Hadi but from kamosh21.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/19/2019 at 1:10 AM, khamosh21 said:

I feel like the answer to my logical fallacy, my OP, seems to be "free will"... this does not begin to even scratch the surface of the topic...

When God is making the decision to send a Prophet to our 1 disbeliever, free will and every action this person will take is already calculated and seen for... which means either God's calculations are exactly right if we take scenario 1, or they are wrong in scenario 2 and we are back to en error where you can't divide by zero...

We do not have freewill. Freewill is an illusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Is the same as claiming that the shop owner is guilty for the theft of the employer who stole his goods because he hired the latter.

Saddam will be rewarded according what he did.

I never said that. That is a quote from member khamosh21. Why are you putting my name on it ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I never said that. That is a quote from member khamosh21. Why are you putting my name on it ? 

I apologize. 

I did not put it there. It just stayed there when I quoted his quote being part of YOUR reply.

If you want I will delete my reply.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

We do not have freewill. Freewill is an illusion.

This implicates that the inhabitants of the Fire are not guilty nor responsible for their fate.

Allah is Just towards His creatures.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Faruk said:

I apologize. 

I did not put it there. It just stayed there when I quoted his quote being p asrt of YOUR reply.

If you want I will delete my reply.

No problem. I was just curious. I will leave it just as long as you acknowledge the misquote so others don't get confused. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Abu Hadi said:

No problem. I was just curious. I will leave it just as long as you acknowledge the misquote so others don't get confused. 

Thank you. I will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

We do not have freewill. Freewill is an illusion.

We do have freewill, it's the basic building-block of the "soul to body" experience of the universe. However it is true that freewill does not dupe Allah, it cannot exceed al-Haqq. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree with the rest. however how do I know that what you call profane is just your narrow subjective conditioned view?

No maybes.  It is!

Just as seeking the profane IS conditioned,  subjective and hence “narrow”, so also is seeking the sacred conditioned, subjective and hence “narrow”.

ALL OF SEEKING is subjective or narrow because it is done within the realm of conditioned existence or within the world of duality between subject and object.  The seeker (you and I) vs the sought (the sacred or the profane).  The subject being relative to, or conditioned by, the object and the object being relative to, or conditioned by, the subject; each being limited by its opposite.

So long as one is not “realized”, one finds himself seeking either the sacred or the profane.  

But for the one who is “realized”, he sees beyond the duality of sacred vs profane.  For him there is no longer any seeking of anything outside himself for he has realized that he has always already been what he was truly seeking for.  He realizes that he himself has always been the real meaning of what it means to be Sacred.  He further understands that what he was calling the “sacred” was not really the Sacred as such but rather just a means for him to realize his Self as the Sacred.  And in that respect, he also realizes that what he was calling “profane” was actually something inhibiting himself from realizing the Sacred as his Self and hence All there is.  The Sacred really has no opposite (it is beyond the dichotomy of the sacred vs the profane).

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HakimPtsid said:

We do have freewill, it's the basic building-block of the "soul to body" experience of the universe. However it is true that freewill does not dupe Allah, it cannot exceed al-Haqq. 

We do not have freewill but we have consciousness, that is the soul to body connection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No maybes.  It is!

Just as seeking the profane IS conditioned,  subjective and hence “narrow”, so also is seeking the sacred conditioned, subjective and hence “narrow”.

ALL OF SEEKING is subjective or narrow because it is done within the realm of conditioned existence or within the world of duality between subject and object.  The seeker (you and I) vs the sought (the sacred or the profane).  The subject being relative to, or conditioned by, the object and the object being relative to, or conditioned by, the subject; each being limited by its opposite.

So long as one is not “realized”, one finds himself seeking either the sacred or the profane.  

But for the one who is “realized”, he sees beyond the duality of sacred vs profane.  For him there is no longer any seeking of anything outside himself for he has realized that he has always already been what he was truly seeking for.  He realizes that he himself has always been the real meaning of what it means to be Sacred.  He further understands that what he was calling the “sacred” was not really the Sacred as such but rather just a means for him to realize his Self as the Sacred.  And in that respect, he also realizes that what he was calling “profane” was actually something inhibiting himself from realizing the Sacred as his Self and hence All there is.  The Sacred really has no opposite (it is beyond the dichotomy of the sacred vs the profane).

 

 

aaah brother... stuck in same place again for me... I agree with this but can't reconcile this with the rest of the world, religion, and the path itself...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

aaah brother... stuck in same place again for me... I agree with this but can't reconcile this with the rest of the world, religion, and the path itself...

Which part exactly can’t you reconcile with the path or religion?

or perhaps you don’t need to explain.  You said it very clearly before.  

You want to “experience” or “taste” the “Self” (even though it was made very clear to you that realization of Self is not something to experience or to taste.  

To want to realize the Self as a subject seeking an object is essentially what it means to “seek the profane”.

 So in other words you desire a profane way of living.  

Just something to observe.  Not judging you.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Which part exactly can’t you reconcile with the path or religion?

or perhaps you don’t need to explain.  You said it very clearly before.  

You want to “experience” or “taste” the “Self” (even though it was made very clear to you that realization of Self is not something to experience or to taste.  

To want to realize the Self as a subject seeking an object is essentially what it means to “seek the profane”.

 So in other words you desire a profane way of living.  

Just something to observe.  Not judging you.

 

 

 

 

 

correct then, I am seeking the profane as you have eloquently described... am I doomed for hell then?

jokes aside, how does one stop seeking the profane in a consistent way?

Edited by khamosh21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

Yes it is true.

Whatever people do injustice, they do injustice to themselves and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not do any injustice to them. It is by will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to allow it to happen or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Raheel Yunus said:

Yes it is true.

Everything is happening only by the will of Allah.

 

That they inhabit the Fire is His Will.

But that they will without deserving it or not being guilty is a claim I distant myself from.

Allah is Just and not a cruel being who ramdonly puts people in the Fire without any reason.

I distance myself from your unnuanced statement and terrifying image of the most Merciful.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

jokes aside, how does one stop seeking the profane in a consistent way?

Salam,

This is some sort of beautiful art skill that is required to learn.  Like martial arts is or learning calligraphy is.  It would certainly help to get a teacher who is himself skillful and who can help you practice the art.  Just being around those who know this art also influences you.  

So in your prayers, simply pray for such a teacher and for such a company.  May this teacher ultimately be from the lineage of the Prophet (S) and his family (as they were masters of all masters when it comes to this art which is the art of all arts).

ethereal

 

Edited by eThErEaL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HakimPtsid said:

This is utterly nonsensical. 

What we do, good or evil, is to the affect of our own Soul. Are you at all familiar with Akhlaq? you don't seem to be.

We cannot blame Allah for the things we do to others. But ultimately nothing, good or evil, can exist without Allah, none is independent from Allah. This does not stop our own mistreatment of others, the responsibility of what actions we choose to take can never be blamed on Allah as though Allah is the fault of our own decisions - that is nonsensical, again.

 

I am sorry you find what I am saying nonsensical.You seem to be loosing your patience, you do not have to interact with me. 

No man ever believes that the Qur'an means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.

To allow me to understand the paradox you are proposing,  please let me know, in your opinion: 

Why was it necessary for God to create suffering?

If it was not necessary why create it in the first place?

How do we acquire free will? How does God give us free will?

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil / suffering exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.
So, God *can* create a world without suffering.

If God CAN create a sufferingless existence, then THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY. You believe in a God who created unnecessary suffering.

ws.

*
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...