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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

this contradicts what Imam Ali has said about the same magicians, and also contradicts the declaration of the magicians when they cast their ropes in Firon's name, and generally contradicts the entire story.

You still need to explain all the other miracles in the Qur'an and your very contradictory statement that you would become the first disbeliever if you were to see a miracle... I am just becoming a disbeliever by reading about them 

The point I was making is that there is a miracle in front of us all right now, and it is called existence.  If we cannot appreciate what is occurring before our eyes right now then how will a moon splitting before our eyes “cause” us to see things so differently?  What benefit is there in that experience vs your experience of something like you breathing right now?  I am not saying I will be a disbeliever by just seeing a moon split before my eyes (this wasn’t my point) but rather that if “belief” was “caused” by “seeing extraordinary events” then I would find religion to be uninteresting and shallow (I would be a disbeliever because of the very shallow meaning of belief in such a religion).  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why should I care what he has to say? I care about what God says in the Qur'an, and God did not say at all what ibn Arabi said, so ibn Arabi can trip as hard he wants, what do you think he used to trip? magic mushrooms? meditates himself out of his body?

I am referencing him because I didn’t want you to think I am pulling these ideas out of my own head and that I am making them up as I go along.   

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25 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

The point I was making is that there is a miracle in front of us all right now, and it is called existence.  If we cannot appreciate what is occurring before our eyes right now then how will a moon splitting before our eyes “cause” us to see things so differently?  What benefit is there in that experience vs your experience of something like you breathing right now?  I am not saying I will be a disbeliever by just seeing a moon split before my eyes (this wasn’t my point) but rather that if “belief” was “caused” by “seeing extraordinary events” then I would find religion to be uninteresting and shallow (I would be a disbeliever because of the very shallow meaning of belief in such a religion).  

 

I am just that shallow then... what can I do, it's only way I'll believe... problem is God did and does give His servants miracles, and He does mention them all over the Qur'an... Sufis rave about the kiramat of their Pirs, Shia rave about Ayatullah Behjat and Tabatabaei's spiritual cababilities... all I am asking is to see one.... I don't see how that is wrong or incorrect of me

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24 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I am referencing him because I didn’t want you to think I am pulling these ideas out of my own head and that I am making them up as I go along.   

Whether you reference the Pope, ibn Arabi, or yourself, if you didn't make it up then I can only say ibn Arabi did.

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28 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I am just that shallow then... what can I do, it's only way I'll believe... problem is God did and does give His servants miracles, and He does mention them all over the Qur'an... Sufis rave about the kiramat of their Pirs, Shia rave about Ayatullah Behjat and Tabatabaei's spiritual cababilities... all I am asking is to see one.... I don't see how that is wrong or incorrect of me

1) What constitutes a miracle for you?  Is it merely something you haven’t seen before?  

2) And how exactly do you think “a miracle” (as you define it) will make you believe?

3) And what exactly will it make you believe in?  

Before you attempt to answer these questions I would like you to read up on David Hume’s essay concerning miracles.

https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/courses/43811/hume-on-miracles.htm

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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47 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

1) What constitutes a miracle for you?  Is it merely something you haven’t seen before?  

2) And how exactly do you think “a miracle” (as you define it) will make you believe?

3) And what exactly will it make you believe in?  

Before you attempt to answer these questions I would like you to read up on David Hume’s essay concerning miracles.

https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/courses/43811/hume-on-miracles.htm

 

 

 

im still going through the link... an initial answer would be pretty much any of the extraordinary claims made in Qur'an, hadith, stories of Imams urafa, Sufis, mystics... any one of those would be acceptable. eg. sitting in fire, making dead come to life, teleportation of objects or persons, visions of heaven or hell, making objects talk (like trees, stones, or pebbles) etc... the list is endless brother...

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is very clear that everyone in not capable of digesting vast knowledge that comes from useen , that Qur'an talks about Balaam without mentioning his name that he could see unseen & knew word of God but his soul corrupted because of having access to this great source of knowledge & power but in other hand Asif the vizier of Prophet Suleyman had same situation as him but this didn't corrupt him  

Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the Earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

— Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat 175–176

there is many magicians or Illusionists in our time that can do works that looks like miracle in Qur'an about moving throne Allah Prophet wanted to proves that if we have power from him we can do it immediately without pre requisition or spending time because jinns at that story said will do it in a specific time & also promised that won't change or steal anything in throne as magicians do it  but man has knowledge of one word of Allah did it in blink of eye without providing anything or spending time for doing it 7 everyone understand that is exact throne despite they didn't see it before as Prophet Suleyman (عليه السلام) said change appearance of throne to test Queen of Saba that when saw the throne recognized it that is her throne & believed to Allah so everybody can does teleporting or cracks the moon but except Prophets (عليه السلام) & Imam (عليه السلام) & few pious people most of time it happens by help of Jins or science  that is not divine science but divine science challenges all of them that they understand it comes from something beyond their power & knowledge like as magicians infront of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) understood despite their great illusion the miracle of Prophet Musa althought looks like their illusion but it's real & comes from a greater power than all of powers that they knew so doing any thing that looks like miraculous is not enough reason to believe him   because it can be done by unholy means but we must lean on reasoning not just miracle  , miracle is for approving the logic not opposite when people deny any logical reason.

I am not sure what you are getting at, balam experiences are his, can you give a guarantee or definitive answer as to what would happen to me if I was to see some of the unseen? I am also not asking for vast knowledge, but a bread crumb that could prove the rest is real , not just imagined by people that wish to fool or manipulate us

I have yet to see Real magic, and please find me one illusionist thay claims they are doing real magic? we all know its just tricks, and they say as much... 

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15 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

How to see this reality? Please do not tell me that "sharia" or fiqh is the way... 

Allah is absolute reality .
Allah exists as both the subjective and the objective Reality. He may be intuited in the objective world, but He can only be directly known as the subjective Reality; I.e., from within as I. The objective Reality is that which is perceived, either as subtle form (on the mental, or psychic, level), or as gross form (on the sensual level). The subjective Reality is the perceiver, the Witness. It is that very consciousness which we experience as our very own existence. That is Allah; and it is That which is to be known.

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2 hours ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Allah is absolute reality .
Allah exists as both the subjective and the objective Reality. He may be intuited in the objective world, but He can only be directly known as the subjective Reality; I.e., from within as I. The objective Reality is that which is perceived, either as subtle form (on the mental, or psychic, level), or as gross form (on the sensual level). The subjective Reality is the perceiver, the Witness. It is that very consciousness which we experience as our very own existence. That is Allah; and it is That which is to be known.

so in the back of my awarness somewhere I feel this presence that is always there and observing, observing my thoughts and every experience I have... I find what you say to be true, I just wish I could taste it

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

im still going through the link... an initial answer would be pretty much any of the extraordinary claims made in Qur'an, hadith, stories of Imams urafa, Sufis, mystics... any one of those would be acceptable. eg. sitting in fire, making dead come to life, teleportation of objects or persons, visions of heaven or hell, making objects talk (like trees, stones, or pebbles) etc... the list is endless brother...

Can you define what exactly constitutes a miracle.  Not really asking for examples.  

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

so in the back of my awarness somewhere I feel this presence that is always there and observing, observing my thoughts and every experience I have... I find what you say to be true, I just wish I could taste it

Interesting.  :)  I’ll just let Shams continue.  

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47 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Can you define what exactly constitutes a miracle.  Not really asking for examples.  

are you incapable of deriving meaning from the miracles or divine acts described in the Qur'an? you know things you don't see every day like the sea parting because Prophet Musa used a wooden stick....

I hope it will help me believe in the unseen and the rest etc... 

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37 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I hope it will help me believe in the unseen and the rest etc... 

The problem with miracles is that they are very camera-shy; they never happen when film crews are around, recording equipment, mobile phones, sceptical eyes etc. etc.

Some would even say that 'No miracles today Implies none in the past'...

Faith is the what you need to help you believe in the unseen and the rest.  :)

ws.

*


 

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42 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

are you incapable of deriving meaning from the miracles or divine acts described in the Qur'an? you know things you don't see every day like the sea parting because Prophet Musa used a wooden stick....

I hope it will help me believe in the unseen and the rest etc... 

You need to have a clear idea of what you want.  You have requested for something and I just need to know what fits the bill. 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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