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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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24 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The answer to these questions are not as easy as you think. In my opinion the one who says I know the answer to these question knows nothing and the one who knows become silent.

My dear brother, I never said that I am perfect human being to answer these questions, I am just trying and if you think I am wrong, I am ready to learn from you, there is no harm in admitting if you correct me. :respect:

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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32 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Again, that there is reality (I.e. God) is blatantly evident.   But what this reality (God) is, is often times con-fused with that which isn't real (namely, a God).  

Let me know what you think please.   

How to see this reality? Please do not tell me that "sharia" or fiqh is the way... 

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17 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Let me know what you think please

Tell you what brother, if your ustaad can prove he has some hold on the unseen, if he can show me a kiramat or a miracle, I will be ready to submit, no more questions.

Edited by khamosh21

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37 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Again, that there is reality (I.e. God) is blatantly evident.   But what this reality (God) is, is often times con-fused with that which isn't real (namely, a God).  

Let me know what you think please.

My real thoughts on what you have written is that I can't disagree with it, I can't agree with it either because I don't know if you are right or wrong...but I don't find religion the way practiced or explained to match what you have written... for example there is no need for Prophets, I mean there is to help and guide, but it doesn't seem like an obligation to do so... 

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Four answers to your question...


1. God created humans guide them to what is wrong and what is right gave them free will and in the end punish them for their sins.

2. In the kingdom of God something happened so He wants to punish the culprits and forgive others. But the culprits asked for what crime they will be punished where is the proof, so He created this world to prove why some are punished and others are spared.

3.In the kingdom of God some creature was infected with some disease. To cure them this world is created for a fixed term. At the end of this world, the cured one will be sent back where they come from (heaven) and others were sent back to live in another realm (hell)for further medication and this process will continue till everyone becomes fit enough to be with God. 
No free will.

4. God does not exist.

Edited by Raheel Yunus

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14 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

How to see this reality? Please do not tell me that "sharia" or fiqh is the way... 

 

Simply by reminding yourself that it is not worth investing your attention in that which is ultimately not real (those things which come and go).  By simply reminding yourself that real happiness is not something to seek in things which come and go but rather, real happiness is simply found in being free of seeking anything.  By simply stop trying to cause things to happen —  by simply ceasing to seek results from your actions (because happiness doesn’t come from there either).  

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

My real thoughts on what you have written is that I can't disagree with it, I can't agree with it either because I don't know if you are right or wrong...but I don't find religion the way practiced or explained to match what you have written... for example there is no need for Prophets, I mean there is to help and guide, but it doesn't seem like an obligation to do so... 

What good will it do you to see a moon split in half or to see Jesus walk on water?  In fact if such miracles were the reason “to believe” then I will be amongst the first of disbelievers even if I see such things with my naked eye.  Because such “miracles don’t mean anything to me.  

The real miracles is in what exists, what is.

The real miracles is here and now, right before  your very nose.  All you have to do is be grateful (have shukr) for whatever is, and don’t be ungrateful (kufr).  Your happiness is found in being content And no wanting other than what Is.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the language of the Qur'an.  These are not my ideas.  Simply open the Qur'an anywhere and you will see that Allah doesn’t make the human problem that of accepting or rejecting God but rather of shirk.  Allah only asks us to be thankful and if we are thankful it is for our own good.

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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41 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

What good will it do you to see a moon split in half or to see Jesus walk on water?  In fact if such miracles were the reason “to believe” then I will be amongst the first of disbelievers even if I see such things with my naked eye.  Because such “miracles don’t mean anything to me.  

 

so all the verses of the Qur'an where God speaks of Prophets performing miracles, what do you make of those, they don't mean anything to you? you should be the first disbeliever when you read about a stick turning into a snake and some guy teleporting a throne in less than a blink of an eye...

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46 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

 

To the best of my knowledge, this is the language of the Qur'an.  These are not my ideas.  Simply open the Qur'an anywhere and you will see that Allah doesn’t make the human problem that of accepting or rejecting God but rather of shirk.  Allah only asks us to be thankful and if we are thankful it is for our own good.

 

using your interpretation I would say the only way Firon's magicians were able see reality was through a miracle, otherwise they would have continued in their shirk...

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13 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

using your interpretation I would say the only way Firon's magicians were able see reality was through a miracle, otherwise they would have continued in their shirk...

I n Arabi says that the miracle was simply an occasion for the magicians to declare the faith that was already in their hearts.  This is why only the magicians submitted to Moses (عليه السلام) and not the others who saw the miracle.  

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I n Arabi says that the miracle was simply an occasion for the magicians to declare the faith that was already in their hearts.  This is why only the magicians submitted to Moses (عليه السلام) and not the others who saw the miracle.  

this contradicts what Imam Ali has said about the same magicians, and also contradicts the declaration of the magicians when they cast their ropes in Firon's name, and generally contradicts the entire story.

You still need to explain all the other miracles in the Qur'an and your very contradictory statement that you would become the first disbeliever if you were to see a miracle... I am just becoming a disbeliever by reading about them 

Edited by khamosh21

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

What good will it do you to see a moon split in half or to see Jesus walk on water?  In fact if such miracles were the reason “to believe” then I will be amongst the first of disbelievers even if I see such things with my naked eye.  Because such “miracles don’t mean anything to me.  

Brother you can sidestep and avoid questions as much as you like, or make up your own history and imaginary, interpretations but I don't think ever let this response of yours go as you are literally saying the miracles performed by Prophets don't meaning anything to you as well as verses of the Qur'an that mention them.

 

Unless you are going to tell me like you do for the Qur'an, your words mean completely something different, not what is written?

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I n Arabi says...

Why should I care what he has to say? I care about what God says in the Qur'an, and God did not say at all what ibn Arabi said, so ibn Arabi can trip as hard he wants, what do you think he used to trip? magic mushrooms? meditates himself out of his body?

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Let me know what you think please.

Brother I have read this response of yours several times over, and as you politely requested me to share my thoughts on it, here are some more...

The true dichotomy as you have explained is a mere paraphrasing of the false dichotomy. You have replaced accepting and rejecting with seeing and unseeing? I don't see the difference, you have poured the water into a different colored glass... waters still water brother...

however I definitely prefer the words you have used, so we will go with your dichotomy.

My focus on the unseen stems from, Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 3:
الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

1. There should be proof of the unseen in order to believe in it.

2. I'll ask you, what's the benefit of keeping things "unseen" for some and not for others?

If I were to see the moon crack in 2 or if someone teleported me, I would 1000 percent believe... it may not do anything for you, it may not have any meaning for you, but it does for me... and if your ustaad is a True man, he should be able to satiate this need of mine, much like other saints have actually right?

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23 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

2. I'll ask you, what's the benefit of keeping things "unseen" for some and not for others?

Salam this is very clear that everyone in not capable of digesting vast knowledge that comes from useen , that Qur'an talks about Balaam without mentioning his name that he could see unseen & knew word of God but his soul corrupted because of having access to this great source of knowledge & power but in other hand Asif the vizier of Prophet Suleyman had same situation as him but this didn't corrupt him  

Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the Earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

— Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat 175–176
30 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

f I were to see the moon crack in 2 or if someone teleported me, I would 1000 percent believe... it may not do anything for you, it may not have any meaning for you, but it does for me... and if your ustaad is a True man, he should be able to satiate this need of mine, much like other saints have actually right?

there is many magicians or Illusionists in our time that can do works that looks like miracle in Qur'an about moving throne Allah Prophet wanted to proves that if we have power from him we can do it immediately without pre requisition or spending time because jinns at that story said will do it in a specific time & also promised that won't change or steal anything in throne as magicians do it  but man has knowledge of one word of Allah did it in blink of eye without providing anything or spending time for doing it 7 everyone understand that is exact throne despite they didn't see it before as Prophet Suleyman (عليه السلام) said change appearance of throne to test Queen of Saba that when saw the throne recognized it that is her throne & believed to Allah so everybody can does teleporting or cracks the moon but except Prophets (عليه السلام) & Imam (عليه السلام) & few pious people most of time it happens by help of Jins or science  that is not divine science but divine science challenges all of them that they understand it comes from something beyond their power & knowledge like as magicians infront of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) understood despite their great illusion the miracle of Prophet Musa althought looks like their illusion but it's real & comes from a greater power than all of powers that they knew so doing any thing that looks like miraculous is not enough reason to believe him   because it can be done by unholy means but we must lean on reasoning not just miracle  , miracle is for approving the logic not opposite when people deny any logical reason.

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