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khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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6 minutes ago, ali47 said:

 

It's like sending somebody to do a job with all the tools, equipment and training. They come back and have created a mess - do you hold the person responsible who sent them to do the job, even though they gave them all the tools to do it? We can end up attributing our shortcomings to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) if we are not careful..

thanks for your thoughtful reply, apologies to anyone if im being provocative... I mean well really :)

you see if I KNEW the person im giving the tools to is an idiot, I would never give him tools or send him to do the job, I would find more competent person.

The WHOLE argument can be summed here:

free will + complete knowledge = good

free will + incomplete knowledge = high risk of disaster = idiots = people like me

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10 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your thoughtful reply, apologies to anyone if im being provocative... I mean well really :)

you see if I KNEW the person im giving the tools to is an idiot, I would never give him tools or send him to do the job, I would find more competent person.

The WHOLE argument can be summed here:

free will + complete knowledge = good

free will + incomplete knowledge = high risk of disaster = idiots = people like me

No this is healthy debate brother I like it ;)

The point is the person is not an idiot, they are a great human being with free-will :)

God's knowledge is before his decree, this is when you start getting deep.

It's the difference between the throne and arsh given in some hadith.

Allah knows everything (the arsh) but what is decreed (the kursi) is different and this is depending upon our actions and how Allah rewards/punishes us.

Allah will make something a reality or decree something based on our choices as dictated by free-will, but he has the eternal knowledge (lawh mahfuz) of all choices.

These two do not contradict each other because in his knowledge exists ALL the potentialities and scenarios, but by his power we can choose what reality is decreed insha'Allah.

He knows ultimately what will happen because he is beyond the decree. We make our choice and by his will he decrees it.

The point is, we pay the price of our own choices and he does not. Due to his greatness and power he can know what we do not, otherwise he would not be al-'Alim. You must believe in a transcendent God to break this logical regress which is in fact your mind limiting Allah.

Man and His Destiny by Ayatollah Mutahhari is a great read for this topic.

Edited by ali47

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4 minutes ago, ali47 said:

No this is healthy debate brother I like it ;)

The point is the person is not an idiot, they are a great human being with free-will :)

God's knowledge is before his decree, this is when you start getting deep.

It's the difference between the throne and arsh given in some hadith.

Allah knows everything (the arsh) but what is decreed (the kursi) is different and this is depending upon our actions and how Allah rewards/punishes us.

Allah will make something a reality or decree something based on our free-will, but he has the eternal knowledge (lawh mahfuz).

These two do not contradict each other because in his knowledge exists ALL the potentialities and scenarios, but by his power we can choose what reality is decreed insha'Allah.

He knows ultimately what will happen because he is beyond the decree. We make our choice and by his will he decrees it.

The point is, we pay the price of our own choices and he does not. Due to his greatness and power he can know what we do not, otherwise he would not be al-'Alim.

Man and His Destiny by Ayatollah Mutahhari is a great read for this topic.

I don’t want all this responsibility, I want to give upy free will and go back into whichever void I came from. I don’t want the risk of eternal damnation.

ive come close to experience a type of death, all I saw was the world rising from nothing but a black void, and my useless life and made up identity turned into nothingness... I saw everything turned into nothing and of no value.

 

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

I don’t want all this responsibility, I want to give upy free will and go back into whichever void I came from. I don’t want the risk of eternal damnation.

ive come close to experience a type of death, all I saw was the world rising from nothing but a black void, and my useless life and made up identity turned into nothingness... I saw everything turned into nothing and of no value.

 

Be positive man!

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9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

ive come close to experience a type of death, all I saw was the world rising from nothing but a black void, and my useless life and made up identity turned into nothingness... I saw everything turned into nothing and of no value.

 

Strange........ after this experience still you are asking for a sign and miracle.

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19 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

can you give a guarantee or definitive answer as to what would happen to me if I was to see some of the unseen?

Salam with your current situation you will lose your remaining faith , all Shia Urafa that could see unseen just in a brief at least were in level of Mujtahid or near to  Marja status & were working on their soul & mind at least for forty years to become able to see unseen just for few moments .

 

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31 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam with your current situation you will lose your remaining faith , all Shia Urafa that could see unseen just in a brief at least were in level of Mujtahid or near to  Marja status & were working on their soul & mind at least for forty years to become able to see unseen just for few moments .

 

Why would I lose my current faith, it would be nice to prove such claims...

also this claim of 40 years is quite unsubstantiated... 

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47 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Why would I lose my current faith, it would be nice to prove such claims...

also this claim of 40 years is quite unsubstantiated..

because even seeing it needs strong faith & high capability both spiritually & mentally of tolerating seeing it even if you don't lose your faith you will lose your mind in your current state , people like as Ayatollah Gadi that was main teacher of Ayatollah Khoei worked on himself  for for forty years & at the end with intercession to Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه) just could see unseen for few minutes

Miraculous Power

So many miraculous deeds by Qadi such as Instantaneous Teleport and taking the life of a snake saying the word of al-Mumit [a name of Allah which means giver of death] have been reported. It is quoted from Abu l-Qasim al-Khoei that extraordinary events took place at the death of Sayyid 'Ali Qadi. It is also said that some miraculous events have been occurred upon his grave.

Qadi believed that reaching the position of (true belief in) the Unity of God and true spiritual wayfaring towards God is impossible without accepting the guardianship of Imams (a) and Fatima al-Zahra (s).

In fact, his spiritual conduct was the same as Husayn Quli Hamadani's. According to his discipline, in order to free mind from occupations, the spiritual wayfarer needs to allocate at least half an hour each day for assessing his self, so that gradually he knows himself. Moreover, in order to remove barriers and blockades, he needs to entreat Imam al-Husayn (a).

Ihraq (Burning)

He recommended the method of Ihraq (burn out) for eliminating low desires and selfish intentions. He had adopted this method from the holy Qur'an. In this method, the wayfarer should know that everything belongs to God and he is needy in nature. This method would cause all the selfish intentions and vices to be burned, so it is called Ihraq (burn out).

Observing Recommended Actions

Among Qadi's other methods of spiritual wayfaring towards Allah are observing on-time daily prayers, observing night prayer, keeping a vigil, and repeating various dhikrs which he himself used to say all the time and also advised his students to do so, such as reciting Yunusiyya dhikr together with the Qur'an in prostration, reciting Sura al-Qadr hundred times on Thursday nights, and reciting Sura al-TawhidDu'a Kumayl, and Ziyarat Jami'a frequently. He loved to keep a vigil in the Masjid al-Kufa and Masjid al-Sahla and had small rooms in these two Masjids to worship Allah. He recommended visiting Masjid al-Sahla especially on foot. He also believed that the spiritual wayfarer have to be the Islamic authority, because when some spiritual realms are opened up for him, he would be charged with some duties which only an Islamic authority can find out how to fulfill them properly.

Risala sayr wa suluk

Among mystic books, Qadi recommended Risala sayr wa suluk by Bahr al-'Ulum. However, it is quoted from 'Abbas Quchani, his student, and Muhammad Hasan Qadi, his son, that Qadi allowed nobody to follow some difficult instructions of this book. He loved Futuhat al-Makkiyya and Mathnawi Mulawi and believed that some mystics such as Rumi and Ibn 'Arabi were Shi'a. On the contrary, he believed that keeping some books at home, such as al-Aghani (by Abu l-Faraj al-Isfahani), would bring bad omen because of introducing singers and musicians and describing their immoral behaviors.

Attributes

Aqa Buzurg, who was Qadi's friend for years, has admired Qadi for his steadfastness, nobility and dignity. In spite of poverty and simple life style, he disapproved of unlawful and strict asceticism. He believed that the spiritual wayfarer should care about his body as well, because body is the mount of soul. Thus, he cared about his appearance and used to wear perfume and clean white clothes. He always advised others to be good-mannered and do good.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Sayyid_'Ali_Qadi_Tabataba'I

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Yunusiyya_Dhikr

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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28 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

because even seeing it needs strong faith & high capability both spiritually & mentally of tolerating seeing it even if you don't lose your faith you will lose your mind in your current state , people like as Ayatollah Gadi that was main teacher of Ayatollah Khoei worked on himself  for for forty years & at the end with intercession to Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه) just could see unseen for few minutes

Miraculous Power

So many miraculous deeds by Qadi such as Instantaneous Teleport and taking the life of a snake saying the word of al-Mumit [a name of Allah which means giver of death] have been reported. It is quoted from Abu l-Qasim al-Khoei that extraordinary events took place at the death of Sayyid 'Ali Qadi. It is also said that some miraculous events have been occurred upon his grave.

Qadi believed that reaching the position of (true belief in) the Unity of God and true spiritual wayfaring towards God is impossible without accepting the guardianship of Imams (a) and Fatima al-Zahra (s).

In fact, his spiritual conduct was the same as Husayn Quli Hamadani's. According to his discipline, in order to free mind from occupations, the spiritual wayfarer needs to allocate at least half an hour each day for assessing his self, so that gradually he knows himself. Moreover, in order to remove barriers and blockades, he needs to entreat Imam al-Husayn (a).

I want to believe these things... I want to believe our urafa are in fact capable of the things you've written, I just need evidence for it. I can't just take peoples word for it no matter how nice, knowledge or pious they are.. if one of our urafa were to teleport, I'm pretty sure I won't go crazy or lose my faith... that's not even something from the unseen.thats all I am asking, for these outlandish and impossible stories to at least be once proven in front of my eyes...

 when you say Ayt Qadi, Behjat, x y z could do x y z miraculous things, and you can't show it right now, it means you're just trying to fool people... its just like any other religion claiming their mystics have miraculous powers... you want us to revere your leaders so you come with nonsense stories about them. what makes your claim more believable then some Sufi tariqa?

Edited by khamosh21

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13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your wishes, if things don't go anywhere in 10 years, south america is on my bucket list ;)

I want to take another tackle at defining what it is I need... 

1. certainty

2. a sign, whether in the form of a miracle, kiramat, something ordinary or whatever it is that Allah knows best would give me certainty.

3. my personal thinking is if I see something that is out of sync with my day to day reality and nature, such as talking trees etc, this would establish certainty in me... I can’t guarantee this, but I would place greater probability in this.

 

Good luck.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 6/17/2019 at 9:47 PM, khamosh21 said:

My question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

You are trying to reconcile the concept of true free will with the concept of and omnipotent God. 

It's a great question think about it research it.  You may not find an answer that fully convinced you.But it shouldn't be the question that determines your faith.

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your thoughtful reply, apologies to anyone if im being provocative... I mean well really :)

you see if I KNEW the person im giving the tools to is an idiot, I would never give him tools or send him to do the job, I would find more competent person.

The WHOLE argument can be summed here:

free will + complete knowledge = good

free will + incomplete knowledge = high risk of disaster = idiots = people like me

Is not free will+enough knowledge enough to prevent us from going astray?

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your wishes, if things don't go anywhere in 10 years, south america is on my bucket list ;)

I want to take another tackle at defining what it is I need... 

1. certainty

2. a sign, whether in the form of a miracle, kiramat, something ordinary or whatever it is that Allah knows best would give me certainty.

3. my personal thinking is if I see something that is out of sync with my day to day reality and nature, such as talking trees etc, this would establish certainty in me... I can’t guarantee this, but I would place greater probability in this.

 

Miracles such as talking trees wouldnt be considered miracles if they frequently occured in our daily lives...and so we would want other kinds of miracles. It wouldnt establish certainty in you.

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45 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Miracles such as talking trees wouldnt be considered miracles if they frequently occured in our daily lives...and so we would want other kinds of miracles. It wouldnt establish certainty in you.

it's worth trying, at least someone will get to say I told you so... 

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1 hour ago, shadow_of_light said:

Is not free will+enough knowledge enough to prevent us from going astray?

I would argue that the world is the way it is because of lack of knowledge... otherwise billions wouldn't be going astray?

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9 hours ago, Warilla said:

You are trying to reconcile the concept of true free will with the concept of and omnipotent God. 

It's a great question think about it research it.  You may not find an answer that fully convinced you.But it shouldn't be the question that determines your faith.

apart from this I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I am finding hard to conceive of a God that is ok for His creation to suffer any type of pain for any duration of time... I just can't get my mind around it... out of infinite and unlimited ways to make something, I can't conceive of a God that can imagine a place like hell, and also go through with it...

Edited by khamosh21

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11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Miraculous Power

So many miraculous deeds by Qadi such as Instantaneous Teleport and taking the life of a snake saying the word of al-Mumit [a name of Allah which means giver of death] have been reported. It is quoted from Abu l-Qasim al-Khoei that extraordinary events took place at the death of Sayyid 'Ali Qadi. It is also said that some miraculous events have been occurred upon his grave.

Brother, paragraphs like these are found in almost any book which speak about our urafa, and any lecture which remotely touches any topic related to irfan or spirituality. so my questions are:

1. What is the motivation and benefit in your view behind narrating such events?

2. What purpose, meaning, and/or benefit do the verses of the Qur'an serve when they narrate miracles performed by the Prophets, or other supernatural events that took place?

And for the sake of our sanities, lets keep anything related to the unseen out of the discussion, I am speaking of stuff like teleportation, stuff of the seen...

Edited by khamosh21

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8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

apart from this I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I am finding hard to conceive of a God that is ok for His creation to suffer any type of pain for any duration of time... I just can't get my mind around it... out of infinite and unlimited ways to make something, I can't conceive of a God that can imagine a place like hell, and also go through with it...

This reality has limits and measures based on the wisdom of God, thus there is a right and wrong, reward and punishment come into play. Surely God could give us all instant heaven but would that be fair? To ascend to that level we have to undergo purification. There is no point saying if only God did this, you either have to accept this reality as it is or come up with a better reality. The truth is brother, we cannot even make a fly.

The mystics and philosophies of Islam say there is only good and truth that really exists. Evilness is in fact lack of goodness which ultimately comes from ignorance.

Qur'an 42:47

Sahih International: And if Allah had extended [excessively] provision for His servants, they would have committed tyranny throughout the Earth. But He sends [it] down in an amount which He wills. Indeed He is, of His servants, Acquainted and Seeing.

So Islam is all about addressing your ignorance, being a better person through morals and values. How can a person like this goto the same place in the next life as someone who abuses and tortures people?

Edited by Hameedeh
Removed excessive empty space.

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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

apart from this I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I am finding hard to conceive of a God that is ok for His creation to suffer any type of pain for any duration of time... I just can't get my mind around it... out of infinite and unlimited ways to make something, I can't conceive of a God that can imagine a place like hell, and also go through with it...

Suffering exists in the world. So the options are 

1)one God that allows/creates it

2)no God 

3)multiple gods. (Good/evil, chaos/order etc)

Go through each do you get to 1 God, multiple, or none ?

Start from the beginning.

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7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

apart from this I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I am finding hard to conceive of a God that is ok for His creation to suffer any type of pain for any duration of time... I just can't get my mind around it... out of infinite and unlimited ways to make something, I can't conceive of a God that can imagine a place like hell, and also go through with it...

Why? good and evil are circumstantial, dualism manifests from creation, not creator (God is not "good or evil", God instead creates Good and Evil), Tawhid is beyond Dualism. If good exists then it's opposite must also exist. Creation can't exist without first having the probability of Evil. If striving towards the Unity of Allah is the essential goal of life (and Din), then good would embody the highest ideals of the human to strive towards. If life is a test (which it is) and is transitory, then Evil is a necessary condition for which the Self of challenged (as all effects one's Soul).

For God to be God and for God to be true and not false, God has to be the author of and transcendent of both Good and Evil. Evil can only be ignorance and arrogance, and what results from both these qualities. It comes back to the Ego, the ego is attached to itself, it wants nothing but it's own pleasure. It doesn't want to leave this state of existence (of the body).

I don't think it's correct at all to phrase it as "a God that is ok for his creation to suffer" because that is entirely missing the point of existence itself, aside from how God is the Ultimate cause and the sustainer of all but not the influence of our own actions and desires of our Egos. Like the children we once where, we are still the child crawling around the room looking for the light switch. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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And to state Allah as the "God of good" or to make Evil something that Allah doesn't transcend, would be a form of Duotheism - and this would be outright Shirk. 

The Good/Evil paradigm can only be below Allah and of course, initiated by Allah but not something Allah is limited to - it can only be subject to Allah's creation. It goes back to many of Imam Ali's sermons too about what is and isn't limiting God. When we limit Allah in such a way, we create a false Rabb, we create an idol, in a sense. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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7 hours ago, Warilla said:

Suffering exists in the world. So the options are 

1)one God that allows/creates it

2)no God 

3)multiple gods. (Good/evil, chaos/order etc)

Go through each do you get to 1 God, multiple, or none ?

Start from the beginning.

I have studied the burhan of wajib-ul-wujood, even if I accept it, that wajib-ul-wujood I feel does not meet the attributes and strories Islam assigned to Allah as demonstrated in this thread...

 

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On 6/19/2019 at 7:12 PM, khamosh21 said:

so in the back of my awarness somewhere I feel this presence that is always there and observing, observing my thoughts and every experience I have... I find what you say to be true, I just wish I could taste it

Truth exults in the expression of Truth, as a tree exults in its fruit. The tree doesn’t bother about who shall eat and enjoy its fruits; still, for those who can reach it, they can taste the fruit. No one can express that taste as it is beyond words. 
You have to seek the truth yourself. No one can describe the truth as it is unfabricated. All the Prophets and religious scriptures including Qur'an are only telling you the path.
Now, to follow a path, you need a map. And although the Qur'an didn’t attempt to provide a map to all of reality, it did sketch enough of a map so that people could negotiate the path all the way to its goal.
The path is a noble path. In the Qur'an’s terms, this means that it leads to a goal that is unfabricated, and therefore free from change—with no aging, illness, or death. Because the path is fabricated, the goal is not simply different from the path, it is radically different—so different that the final act of the path, before reaching the goal, is to abandon the path along with everything else.

 

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8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I have studied the burhan of wajib-ul-wujood, even if I accept it, that wajib-ul-wujood I feel does not meet the attributes and strories Islam assigned to Allah as demonstrated in this thread...

1) What does “sacred” mean to you?

2) do you find anything “sacred”?  

3) if so, what do you find to be “sacred”?

 

You mentioned that you still perform the rites of Islam (Alhamdulillah).  I believe you mentioned that you find it to be an obligation.  But you still continue to pray.  Why have you continued this rite despite your current feelings about religion?  Is it because you find something sacred (however small it maybe) in those rites?  Do you see something sacred in beautiful Islamic Calligraphy.. for example?  Do you see something sacred in the beautiful architecture of a traditional masjid?  Do you feel a sacred presence when you fast during Ramadan?

If you don’t find Islam and it’s rites sacred do you find anything else in this word sacred?  Like virgin nature, a sunset, human faces, the sky?

Do you find other religious symbols of other religions sacred?  Like the Buddha, Christian Icons, a historic Church building, a Hindu giving an offering to his or her idol.. etc etc.. 

The reason why I ask all this is not because I am doubting whether you see sacredness at all.  I believe you do have a sense of the sacred in some way or shape.  Everyone does!  But I  am hoping you will notice that all those who seek, seek one thing, and that is: beauty.  We all love beauty. But you should realize that there are two kinds of beauties.  There is the sacred kind of beauty and there is a profane kind of beauty.  What do you find yourself seeking dear brother?  What are you after?  What do you want your life to be about?  just answer this question for yourself.  

Thanks

ethereal

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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29 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

1) What does “sacred” mean to you?

2) do you find anything “sacred”?  

3) if so, what do you find to be “sacred”?

I thought you left me to go astray brother :)

it's a tough a question, I no longer know what sacred means... so you would help to define it.

Yes I do pray and follow the remaining rituals, you would probably think I'm an extremist if you were to meet me irl. iA ill reply to the rest later, please first help define sacred.

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49 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

1) What does “sacred” mean to you?

2) do you find anything “sacred”?  

3) if so, what do you find to be “sacred”?

 

You mentioned that you still perform the rites of Islam (Alhamdulillah).  I believe you mentioned that you find it to be an obligation.  But you still continue to pray.  Why have you continued this rite despite your current feelings about religion?  Is it because you find something sacred (however small it maybe) in those rites?  Do you see something sacred in beautiful Islamic Calligraphy.. for example?  Do you see something sacred in the beautiful architecture of a traditional masjid?  Do you feel a sacred presence when you fast during Ramadan?

If you don’t find Islam and it’s rites sacred do you find anything else in this word sacred?  Like virgin nature, a sunset, human faces, the sky?

Do you find other religious symbols of other religions sacred?  Like the Buddha, Christian Icons, a historic Church building, a Hindu giving an offering to his or her idol.. etc etc.. 

The reason why I ask all this is not because I am doubting whether you see sacredness at all.  I believe you do have a sense of the sacred in some way or shape.  Everyone does!  But I  am hoping you will notice that all those who seek, seek one thing, and that is: beauty.  We all love beauty. But you should realize that there are two kinds of beauties.  There is the sacred kind of beauty and there is a profane kind of beauty.  What do you find yourself seeking dear brother?  What are you after?  What do you want your life to be about?  just answer this question for yourself.  

Thanks

ethereal

 

 

so part of me continues with the rituals because part of me does believe in it, or at least admits that I could be totally wrong in my thinking, as I don't know if I am right or wrong one way or the other with certainty... the part that wants to believes and be certain about Allah is far more active, I find it to be the only thing I think about even if I try to zone out into mundane things...

the other reason I continue is simply due to fear of punishment (if it exists), and also due to conditioning and just something ive been doing since before I could even walk... if I were being honest though I would say going to the gym in comparison has had more positive effects on my physical and mental being than the daily prayers... but I admit I can't be sure.

I agree with the rest. however how do I know that what you call profane is just your narrow subjective conditioned view?

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23 hours ago, ali47 said:

This reality has limits and measures based on the wisdom of God, thus there is a right and wrong, reward and punishment come into play. Surely God could give us all instant heaven but would that be fair? To ascend to that level we have to undergo purification. There is no point saying if only God did this, you either have to accept this reality as it is or come up with a better reality. The truth is brother, we cannot even make a fly.

The mystics and philosophies of Islam say there is only good and truth that really exists. Evilness is in fact lack of goodness which ultimately comes from ignorance.

Qur'an 42:47

Sahih International: And if Allah had extended [excessively] provision for His servants, they would have committed tyranny throughout the Earth. But He sends [it] down in an amount which He wills. Indeed He is, of His servants, Acquainted and Seeing.

So Islam is all about addressing your ignorance, being a better person through morals and values. How can a person like this goto the same place in the next life as someone who abuses and tortures people?

God could give us all heaven instantly, would that be fair you ask? yes, why wouldn't it be fair? because you said so?

If Allah is necessary, then by default we say everything else is unnecessary right? I say this test is unnecessary including this diluted world and universe... 

if I were designing a world where I wanted to give my creation Mercy, Love, and wanted them to know Me.... I would do exactly that! without any insane tests, conditions and possibility of eternally burning... without viels and hoping people would read inane philopsphy,  and having to study confusing books from centuries ago which aren't even in your own language... brother the list goes on... I can design a world where 100 percent of my creation knows me and I don’t see how that would be unfair?

its already done btw, God created Prophets and Imams in exactly the state I have described above... 

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15 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I have studied the burhan of wajib-ul-wujood, even if I accept it, that wajib-ul-wujood I feel does not meet the attributes and strories Islam assigned to Allah as demonstrated in this thread...

 

Ok so let's say you accept 1diety as a  necessary existence. Suffering exists. So even if you can't accept a particular religion. You have to accept a single omnipotentance that allows/creates suffering.

Is this statement  correct ? 

Edited by Warilla

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5 hours ago, Warilla said:

Ok so let's say you accept 1diety as a  necessary existence. Suffering exists. So even if you can't accept a particular religion. You have to accept a single omnipotentance that allows/creates suffering.

Is this statement  correct ? 

yes the statement is correct, if such 1diety exists... for all we know this diety is the first mover, we don't know anything else.... I think we are just making it up based on imagination? 

it could be a logical approach, but the logic entirely limited to our understanding... and imagination or entirely subjective experience of individuals

Edited by khamosh21

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20 hours ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Truth exults in the expression of Truth, as a tree exults in its fruit. The tree doesn’t bother about who shall eat and enjoy its fruits; still, for those who can reach it, they can taste the fruit. No one can express that taste as it is beyond words. 
You have to seek the truth yourself. No one can describe the truth as it is unfabricated. All the Prophets and religious scriptures including Qur'an are only telling you the path.
Now, to follow a path, you need a map. And although the Qur'an didn’t attempt to provide a map to all of reality, it did sketch enough of a map so that people could negotiate the path all the way to its goal.
The path is a noble path. In the Qur'an’s terms, this means that it leads to a goal that is unfabricated, and therefore free from change—with no aging, illness, or death. Because the path is fabricated, the goal is not simply different from the path, it is radically different—so different that the final act of the path, before reaching the goal, is to abandon the path along with everything else.

 

thanks for your answer... very deep!

question, how does something that is unchanging make decisions? I can never understand this, because making a decision or a choice requires a change in state... so how does Allah get away with it? :)

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9 hours ago, Warilla said:

Ok so let's say you accept 1diety as a  necessary existence. Suffering exists. So even if you can't accept a particular religion. You have to accept a single omnipotentance that allows/creates suffering.

Is this statement  correct ? 

 

I don't believe your statement is correct.

God uses suffering, since without it there are somethings He can't do? 

If suffering /evil is necessary for God to to achieve His or our 'greater good' He cannot be Omnipotent.

Nothing is necessary to an omnipotent God.

You have probably heard of 'be and it is'
 

ws

*

Edited by Quisant

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