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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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14 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

How to see this reality? Please do not tell me that "sharia" or fiqh is the way... 

 

Simply by reminding yourself that it is not worth investing your attention in that which is ultimately not real (those things which come and go).  By simply reminding yourself that real happiness is not something to seek in things which come and go but rather, real happiness is simply found in being free of seeking anything.  By simply stop trying to cause things to happen —  by simply ceasing to seek results from your actions (because happiness doesn’t come from there either).  

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

My real thoughts on what you have written is that I can't disagree with it, I can't agree with it either because I don't know if you are right or wrong...but I don't find religion the way practiced or explained to match what you have written... for example there is no need for Prophets, I mean there is to help and guide, but it doesn't seem like an obligation to do so... 

What good will it do you to see a moon split in half or to see Jesus walk on water?  In fact if such miracles were the reason “to believe” then I will be amongst the first of disbelievers even if I see such things with my naked eye.  Because such “miracles don’t mean anything to me.  

The real miracles is in what exists, what is.

The real miracles is here and now, right before  your very nose.  All you have to do is be grateful (have shukr) for whatever is, and don’t be ungrateful (kufr).  Your happiness is found in being content And no wanting other than what Is.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the language of the Qur'an.  These are not my ideas.  Simply open the Qur'an anywhere and you will see that Allah doesn’t make the human problem that of accepting or rejecting God but rather of shirk.  Allah only asks us to be thankful and if we are thankful it is for our own good.

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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41 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

What good will it do you to see a moon split in half or to see Jesus walk on water?  In fact if such miracles were the reason “to believe” then I will be amongst the first of disbelievers even if I see such things with my naked eye.  Because such “miracles don’t mean anything to me.  

 

so all the verses of the Qur'an where God speaks of Prophets performing miracles, what do you make of those, they don't mean anything to you? you should be the first disbeliever when you read about a stick turning into a snake and some guy teleporting a throne in less than a blink of an eye...

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46 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

 

To the best of my knowledge, this is the language of the Qur'an.  These are not my ideas.  Simply open the Qur'an anywhere and you will see that Allah doesn’t make the human problem that of accepting or rejecting God but rather of shirk.  Allah only asks us to be thankful and if we are thankful it is for our own good.

 

using your interpretation I would say the only way Firon's magicians were able see reality was through a miracle, otherwise they would have continued in their shirk...

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13 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

using your interpretation I would say the only way Firon's magicians were able see reality was through a miracle, otherwise they would have continued in their shirk...

I n Arabi says that the miracle was simply an occasion for the magicians to declare the faith that was already in their hearts.  This is why only the magicians submitted to Moses (عليه السلام) and not the others who saw the miracle.  

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I n Arabi says that the miracle was simply an occasion for the magicians to declare the faith that was already in their hearts.  This is why only the magicians submitted to Moses (عليه السلام) and not the others who saw the miracle.  

this contradicts what Imam Ali has said about the same magicians, and also contradicts the declaration of the magicians when they cast their ropes in Firon's name, and generally contradicts the entire story.

You still need to explain all the other miracles in the Qur'an and your very contradictory statement that you would become the first disbeliever if you were to see a miracle... I am just becoming a disbeliever by reading about them 

Edited by khamosh21

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

What good will it do you to see a moon split in half or to see Jesus walk on water?  In fact if such miracles were the reason “to believe” then I will be amongst the first of disbelievers even if I see such things with my naked eye.  Because such “miracles don’t mean anything to me.  

Brother you can sidestep and avoid questions as much as you like, or make up your own history and imaginary, interpretations but I don't think ever let this response of yours go as you are literally saying the miracles performed by Prophets don't meaning anything to you as well as verses of the Qur'an that mention them.

 

Unless you are going to tell me like you do for the Qur'an, your words mean completely something different, not what is written?

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I n Arabi says...

Why should I care what he has to say? I care about what God says in the Qur'an, and God did not say at all what ibn Arabi said, so ibn Arabi can trip as hard he wants, what do you think he used to trip? magic mushrooms? meditates himself out of his body?

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9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Let me know what you think please.

Brother I have read this response of yours several times over, and as you politely requested me to share my thoughts on it, here are some more...

The true dichotomy as you have explained is a mere paraphrasing of the false dichotomy. You have replaced accepting and rejecting with seeing and unseeing? I don't see the difference, you have poured the water into a different colored glass... waters still water brother...

however I definitely prefer the words you have used, so we will go with your dichotomy.

My focus on the unseen stems from, Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 3:
الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ

Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

1. There should be proof of the unseen in order to believe in it.

2. I'll ask you, what's the benefit of keeping things "unseen" for some and not for others?

If I were to see the moon crack in 2 or if someone teleported me, I would 1000 percent believe... it may not do anything for you, it may not have any meaning for you, but it does for me... and if your ustaad is a True man, he should be able to satiate this need of mine, much like other saints have actually right?

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23 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

2. I'll ask you, what's the benefit of keeping things "unseen" for some and not for others?

Salam this is very clear that everyone in not capable of digesting vast knowledge that comes from useen , that Qur'an talks about Balaam without mentioning his name that he could see unseen & knew word of God but his soul corrupted because of having access to this great source of knowledge & power but in other hand Asif the vizier of Prophet Suleyman had same situation as him but this didn't corrupt him  

Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the Earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

— Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat 175–176
30 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

f I were to see the moon crack in 2 or if someone teleported me, I would 1000 percent believe... it may not do anything for you, it may not have any meaning for you, but it does for me... and if your ustaad is a True man, he should be able to satiate this need of mine, much like other saints have actually right?

there is many magicians or Illusionists in our time that can do works that looks like miracle in Qur'an about moving throne Allah Prophet wanted to proves that if we have power from him we can do it immediately without pre requisition or spending time because jinns at that story said will do it in a specific time & also promised that won't change or steal anything in throne as magicians do it  but man has knowledge of one word of Allah did it in blink of eye without providing anything or spending time for doing it 7 everyone understand that is exact throne despite they didn't see it before as Prophet Suleyman (عليه السلام) said change appearance of throne to test Queen of Saba that when saw the throne recognized it that is her throne & believed to Allah so everybody can does teleporting or cracks the moon but except Prophets (عليه السلام) & Imam (عليه السلام) & few pious people most of time it happens by help of Jins or science  that is not divine science but divine science challenges all of them that they understand it comes from something beyond their power & knowledge like as magicians infront of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) understood despite their great illusion the miracle of Prophet Musa althought looks like their illusion but it's real & comes from a greater power than all of powers that they knew so doing any thing that looks like miraculous is not enough reason to believe him   because it can be done by unholy means but we must lean on reasoning not just miracle  , miracle is for approving the logic not opposite when people deny any logical reason.

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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

this contradicts what Imam Ali has said about the same magicians, and also contradicts the declaration of the magicians when they cast their ropes in Firon's name, and generally contradicts the entire story.

You still need to explain all the other miracles in the Qur'an and your very contradictory statement that you would become the first disbeliever if you were to see a miracle... I am just becoming a disbeliever by reading about them 

The point I was making is that there is a miracle in front of us all right now, and it is called existence.  If we cannot appreciate what is occurring before our eyes right now then how will a moon splitting before our eyes “cause” us to see things so differently?  What benefit is there in that experience vs your experience of something like you breathing right now?  I am not saying I will be a disbeliever by just seeing a moon split before my eyes (this wasn’t my point) but rather that if “belief” was “caused” by “seeing extraordinary events” then I would find religion to be uninteresting and shallow (I would be a disbeliever because of the very shallow meaning of belief in such a religion).  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why should I care what he has to say? I care about what God says in the Qur'an, and God did not say at all what ibn Arabi said, so ibn Arabi can trip as hard he wants, what do you think he used to trip? magic mushrooms? meditates himself out of his body?

I am referencing him because I didn’t want you to think I am pulling these ideas out of my own head and that I am making them up as I go along.   

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25 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

The point I was making is that there is a miracle in front of us all right now, and it is called existence.  If we cannot appreciate what is occurring before our eyes right now then how will a moon splitting before our eyes “cause” us to see things so differently?  What benefit is there in that experience vs your experience of something like you breathing right now?  I am not saying I will be a disbeliever by just seeing a moon split before my eyes (this wasn’t my point) but rather that if “belief” was “caused” by “seeing extraordinary events” then I would find religion to be uninteresting and shallow (I would be a disbeliever because of the very shallow meaning of belief in such a religion).  

 

I am just that shallow then... what can I do, it's only way I'll believe... problem is God did and does give His servants miracles, and He does mention them all over the Qur'an... Sufis rave about the kiramat of their Pirs, Shia rave about Ayatullah Behjat and Tabatabaei's spiritual cababilities... all I am asking is to see one.... I don't see how that is wrong or incorrect of me

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24 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I am referencing him because I didn’t want you to think I am pulling these ideas out of my own head and that I am making them up as I go along.   

Whether you reference the Pope, ibn Arabi, or yourself, if you didn't make it up then I can only say ibn Arabi did.

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28 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I am just that shallow then... what can I do, it's only way I'll believe... problem is God did and does give His servants miracles, and He does mention them all over the Qur'an... Sufis rave about the kiramat of their Pirs, Shia rave about Ayatullah Behjat and Tabatabaei's spiritual cababilities... all I am asking is to see one.... I don't see how that is wrong or incorrect of me

1) What constitutes a miracle for you?  Is it merely something you haven’t seen before?  

2) And how exactly do you think “a miracle” (as you define it) will make you believe?

3) And what exactly will it make you believe in?  

Before you attempt to answer these questions I would like you to read up on David Hume’s essay concerning miracles.

https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/courses/43811/hume-on-miracles.htm

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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47 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

1) What constitutes a miracle for you?  Is it merely something you haven’t seen before?  

2) And how exactly do you think “a miracle” (as you define it) will make you believe?

3) And what exactly will it make you believe in?  

Before you attempt to answer these questions I would like you to read up on David Hume’s essay concerning miracles.

https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/courses/43811/hume-on-miracles.htm

 

 

 

im still going through the link... an initial answer would be pretty much any of the extraordinary claims made in Qur'an, hadith, stories of Imams urafa, Sufis, mystics... any one of those would be acceptable. eg. sitting in fire, making dead come to life, teleportation of objects or persons, visions of heaven or hell, making objects talk (like trees, stones, or pebbles) etc... the list is endless brother...

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is very clear that everyone in not capable of digesting vast knowledge that comes from useen , that Qur'an talks about Balaam without mentioning his name that he could see unseen & knew word of God but his soul corrupted because of having access to this great source of knowledge & power but in other hand Asif the vizier of Prophet Suleyman had same situation as him but this didn't corrupt him  

Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the Earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

— Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat 175–176

there is many magicians or Illusionists in our time that can do works that looks like miracle in Qur'an about moving throne Allah Prophet wanted to proves that if we have power from him we can do it immediately without pre requisition or spending time because jinns at that story said will do it in a specific time & also promised that won't change or steal anything in throne as magicians do it  but man has knowledge of one word of Allah did it in blink of eye without providing anything or spending time for doing it 7 everyone understand that is exact throne despite they didn't see it before as Prophet Suleyman (عليه السلام) said change appearance of throne to test Queen of Saba that when saw the throne recognized it that is her throne & believed to Allah so everybody can does teleporting or cracks the moon but except Prophets (عليه السلام) & Imam (عليه السلام) & few pious people most of time it happens by help of Jins or science  that is not divine science but divine science challenges all of them that they understand it comes from something beyond their power & knowledge like as magicians infront of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) understood despite their great illusion the miracle of Prophet Musa althought looks like their illusion but it's real & comes from a greater power than all of powers that they knew so doing any thing that looks like miraculous is not enough reason to believe him   because it can be done by unholy means but we must lean on reasoning not just miracle  , miracle is for approving the logic not opposite when people deny any logical reason.

I am not sure what you are getting at, balam experiences are his, can you give a guarantee or definitive answer as to what would happen to me if I was to see some of the unseen? I am also not asking for vast knowledge, but a bread crumb that could prove the rest is real , not just imagined by people that wish to fool or manipulate us

I have yet to see Real magic, and please find me one illusionist thay claims they are doing real magic? we all know its just tricks, and they say as much... 

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15 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

How to see this reality? Please do not tell me that "sharia" or fiqh is the way... 

Allah is absolute reality .
Allah exists as both the subjective and the objective Reality. He may be intuited in the objective world, but He can only be directly known as the subjective Reality; I.e., from within as I. The objective Reality is that which is perceived, either as subtle form (on the mental, or psychic, level), or as gross form (on the sensual level). The subjective Reality is the perceiver, the Witness. It is that very consciousness which we experience as our very own existence. That is Allah; and it is That which is to be known.

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2 hours ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Allah is absolute reality .
Allah exists as both the subjective and the objective Reality. He may be intuited in the objective world, but He can only be directly known as the subjective Reality; I.e., from within as I. The objective Reality is that which is perceived, either as subtle form (on the mental, or psychic, level), or as gross form (on the sensual level). The subjective Reality is the perceiver, the Witness. It is that very consciousness which we experience as our very own existence. That is Allah; and it is That which is to be known.

so in the back of my awarness somewhere I feel this presence that is always there and observing, observing my thoughts and every experience I have... I find what you say to be true, I just wish I could taste it

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

im still going through the link... an initial answer would be pretty much any of the extraordinary claims made in Qur'an, hadith, stories of Imams urafa, Sufis, mystics... any one of those would be acceptable. eg. sitting in fire, making dead come to life, teleportation of objects or persons, visions of heaven or hell, making objects talk (like trees, stones, or pebbles) etc... the list is endless brother...

Can you define what exactly constitutes a miracle.  Not really asking for examples.  

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

so in the back of my awarness somewhere I feel this presence that is always there and observing, observing my thoughts and every experience I have... I find what you say to be true, I just wish I could taste it

Interesting.  :)  I’ll just let Shams continue.  

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47 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Can you define what exactly constitutes a miracle.  Not really asking for examples.  

are you incapable of deriving meaning from the miracles or divine acts described in the Qur'an? you know things you don't see every day like the sea parting because Prophet Musa used a wooden stick....

I hope it will help me believe in the unseen and the rest etc... 

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37 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I hope it will help me believe in the unseen and the rest etc... 

The problem with miracles is that they are very camera-shy; they never happen when film crews are around, recording equipment, mobile phones, sceptical eyes etc. etc.

Some would even say that 'No miracles today Implies none in the past'...

Faith is the what you need to help you believe in the unseen and the rest.  :)

ws.

*


 

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42 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

are you incapable of deriving meaning from the miracles or divine acts described in the Qur'an? you know things you don't see every day like the sea parting because Prophet Musa used a wooden stick....

I hope it will help me believe in the unseen and the rest etc... 

You need to have a clear idea of what you want.  You have requested for something and I just need to know what fits the bill. 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

so in the back of my awarness somewhere I feel this presence that is always there and observing, observing my thoughts and every experience I have... I find what you say to be true, I just wish I could taste it

So just know that whatever you experience or taste, that will never satisfy you because it will just end up being an object of that awareness that is always there.  You want to be satisfied but the only way to be satisfied, paradoxically speaking, is to not want it!  After all, isn’t this the meaning of satisfaction (to feel that you don’t want anything).  You want to experience something spiritually exotic, but religion is never about this.  It is about letting go of such attachments (not only material attachments but even spiritual attachments), it is about being happy by simply being content with whatever there is.  True spiritual tasting turns out to be that which you know cannot possibly be tasted (this alone will help you discover your happiness which is your essential way that you are, it is.not a fleeting state that you have to achieve or get.  

No one can be aware of God because He is the awareness through, in and by which everyone and everything else exists.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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25 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

You need to have a clear idea of what you want.  You have requested for something and I just need to know what fits the bill. 

 

 

why, do you think you can deliver the goods brother? this is futile if you can't deliver...not to be crude, but all I am asking is for all saints to put their money with their mouth is and stop with the nonsense

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This problem was tackled by the medieval philosopher Boethius in the "Consolation of Philosophy"

The root of the problem is the question: "if God can see the future, and knows that I will do, then how do I have free will"?

In this case, why would Allah send a Prophet to convince a man to know Allah, if Allah already knows the man will reject the message?

The explanation is this: God does not see past, present, and future in temporal or chronological terms. He is outside of space and time, and everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, occurs "all at once", as in a flash. When we say God can "see" the future, we are placing upon him, human limitations.

Likewise, free will is a necessity for humans to not only freely embrace God, but also to progress as a species--to discover new things, imagine new possibilities. 

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49 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

You need to have a clear idea of what you want.  You have requested for something and I just need to know what fits the bill. 

 

 

I think you are smart enough to understand what I am asking for, if you don't understand, then I have clearly overestimated your intelligence and knowledge, and you would be better of doing something else rather than engaging with me brother.

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58 minutes ago, Quisant said:

The problem with miracles is that they are very camera-shy; they never happen when film crews are around, recording equipment, mobile phones, sceptical eyes etc. etc.

Some would even say that 'No miracles today Implies none in the past'...

Faith is the what you need to help you believe in the unseen and the rest.  :)

ws.

*


 

stuck in a catch 22 then, need faith to see the unseen, need to see the unseen to have faith.

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

So just know that whatever you experience or taste, that will never satisfy you because it will just end up being an object of that awareness that is always there.  You want to be satisfied but the only way to be satisfied, paradoxically speaking, is to not want it!  After all, isn’t this the meaning of satisfaction (to feel that you don’t want anything).  You want to experience something spiritually exotic, but religion is never about this.  It is about letting go of such attachments (not only material attachments but even spiritual attachments), it is about being happy by simply being content with whatever there is.  True spiritual tasting turns out to be that which you know cannot possibly be tasted (this alone will help you discover your happiness which is your essential way that you are, it is.not a fleeting state that you have to achieve or get.  

No one can be aware of God because He is the awareness through, in and by which everyone and everything else exists.  

I used to accept this completely and totally, without a single doubt or question... however I started thinking this state is well beyond anything I will be able to achieve, so why not ask for something less, something more material and shallow, and why not taste something spiritually exotic to in fact to prove to my lower self that you really should let go of things...

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2 hours ago, Silas said:

This problem was tackled by the medieval philosopher Boethius in the "Consolation of Philosophy"

The root of the problem is the question: "if God can see the future, and knows that I will do, then how do I have free will"?

In this case, why would Allah send a Prophet to convince a man to know Allah, if Allah already knows the man will reject the message?

The explanation is this: God does not see past, present, and future in temporal or chronological terms. He is outside of space and time, and everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, occurs "all at once", as in a flash. When we say God can "see" the future, we are placing upon him, human limitations.

Likewise, free will is a necessity for humans to not only freely embrace God, but also to progress as a species--to discover new things, imagine new possibilities. 

I don't know if you have read the whole thread or not, im fine with free will, not fine with having to excercise free will based on incomplete knowledge about the way world really is and having to rely on others accounts of the unseen with no proof or evidence. 

please read the post about shaitan's use of free will I wrote somewhere in this thread.

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38 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I used to accept this completely and totally, without a single doubt or question... however I started thinking this state is well beyond anything I will be able to achieve, so why not ask for something less, something more material and shallow, and why not taste something spiritually exotic to in fact to prove to my lower self that you really should let go of things...

So if you don’t want to take the religious route Then you might have to keep seeking unreal things which come and go.  Good luck with that.  If you want an exotic experience you might want to try iowaska.   

 

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28 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So if you don’t want to take the religious route Then you might have to keep seeking unreal things which come and go.  Good luck with that.  If you want an exotic experience you might want to try iowaska.   

 

thanks for your wishes, if things don't go anywhere in 10 years, south america is on my bucket list ;)

I want to take another tackle at defining what it is I need... 

1. certainty

2. a sign, whether in the form of a miracle, kiramat, something ordinary or whatever it is that Allah knows best would give me certainty.

3. my personal thinking is if I see something that is out of sync with my day to day reality and nature, such as talking trees etc, this would establish certainty in me... I can’t guarantee this, but I would place greater probability in this.

 

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On 6/17/2019 at 9:47 PM, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

There is no compulsion in religion, the right way is clear from the wrong way - the ayat after ayat al-Kursi.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not needy of anything and has given humanity the chance to reach their potential in the dunya and the hereafter.

He has sent his proofs in different forms including books, messengers, 'aql etc so we can get to know him.

He is needless of our worship so if we end up making the wrong choices, why is this a failure on his part?


Granted, some people may do things out of ignorance and this is where actions are based on intentions.

It's all about causation, yes Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the ultimate cause of everything but has given us free-will to choose either way. In fact he has granted us wilayat to be an instrumental part of the causation, we are a khalifa upon the Earth as the Qur'an says.

It's like sending somebody to do a job with all the tools, equipment and training. They come back and have created a mess - do you hold the person responsible who sent them to do the job, even though they gave them all the tools to do it? We can end up attributing our shortcomings to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) if we are not careful..

Edited by ali47

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